QUESTION? WHAT CONSTITUTES A PERSON CALLING HIMSELF A REAL MAGICIAN?

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QUESTION? WHAT CONSTITUTES A PERSON CALLING HIMSELF A REAL MAGICIAN?

Postby MCMAGIC » December 31st, 2009, 9:58 pm

I have been performing close-up magic for years . Could I actually call myself a magician?

Could someone here please tell me what exactly constitutes a person calling themself a magician?

Thanks Guys

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Re: QUESTION? WHAT CONSTITUTES A PERSON CALLING HIMSELF A REAL MAGICIAN?

Postby Jonathan Townsend » December 31st, 2009, 10:03 pm

anyone can call themselves a magician. For a few dollars they can get business cards that make that claim as well.

If they mistake being able to fool themselves for being a magician... they might even be a good customer for magic secret products and tricks.

Though a person who can entertain by using tricks as a vehicle to engage audiences ... :)

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Re: QUESTION? WHAT CONSTITUTES A PERSON CALLING HIMSELF A REAL MAGICIAN?

Postby MCMAGIC » December 31st, 2009, 10:36 pm

Jonathan Townsend, I have seen many guy's who own business cards . The business cards look really good. They say Magic for all occations, Parties , corperate events ,Weddings , trade shows and other added things.
I found out these guys do nothing of a sort ,yet this type of information is all over their magic business cards. These people call them self a magician. I don't understand.

So are you saying anyone can claim to be a magician just because they bought a few tricks and showed their family and friends. Is this actually how the magic world works?

I cannot understand why there is no protocal that constitutes who and who is not a magician in this field.

Are you saying anyone can call themself a magician ...Don't get it..
We don't call our self a Doctor because we know a few medical terms.......I really can't figure this magician status.

Are you a Magician Jonathan Townsend?

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Re: QUESTION? WHAT CONSTITUTES A PERSON CALLING HIMSELF A REAL MAGICIAN?

Postby Eoin O'hare » December 31st, 2009, 11:00 pm

Magicians lie.
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Re: QUESTION? WHAT CONSTITUTES A PERSON CALLING HIMSELF A REAL MAGICIAN?

Postby Bill Duncan » January 1st, 2010, 1:21 am

MCMAGIC wrote:Could I actually call myself a magician?

This is America. You can call yourself a giraffe if you want to.

Being a "magician" is like being a "life coach." What matters are results, not titles.

Why do you care? Why to you ask?

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Re: QUESTION? WHAT CONSTITUTES A PERSON CALLING HIMSELF A REAL MAGICIAN?

Postby Paul Gordon » January 1st, 2010, 2:38 am

A very well-known magic club once organised an inner "group" who would set the standard of excellence. The trouble was/is, the members of this all-powerful group were/are some of the worst magicians you could wish to see. And, btw, this is one of the reasons why I don't like competitions; the judges are often not qualified to judge!

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Re: QUESTION? WHAT CONSTITUTES A PERSON CALLING HIMSELF A REAL MAGICIAN?

Postby MCMAGIC » January 1st, 2010, 9:54 am

ANSWER FROM BILL DUNCAN: This is America. You can call yourself a giraffe if you want to.

Being a "magician" is like being a "life coach." What matters are results, not titles.

Why do you care? Why to you ask?

I am not talking about America or giraffes Bill,though it appears you are. I'm talking about what Constitutes our right in todays world to actually consider ourself a magician ?

So Bill are you saying that anyone can go out and buy a half dozen magic tricks "lEARN THEM" then make up business cards claiming to be a professional Magician? Do you think this is right and ethical in the World of magic? Are you a Magician Bill?

I asked Jonathan Townsend if he was a magician. He never answered.
---------------------------------------------------------------
Paul Gordon seems to hit it right on the spot..A Group one time that set the Standard of Excellence...

I was told a group like this still exist in todays would ,this group is called the FFFF is this true.

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Re: QUESTION? WHAT CONSTITUTES A PERSON CALLING HIMSELF A REAL MAGICIAN?

Postby Richard Kaufman » January 1st, 2010, 10:18 am

Anyone who can successfully do a few tricks is determined to be a magician by laymen. End of story.

This is a dumb thread.
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Re: QUESTION? WHAT CONSTITUTES A PERSON CALLING HIMSELF A REAL MAGICIAN?

Postby Mark.Lewis » January 1st, 2010, 10:43 am

You kind of know when you are a magician. One day you look around at other magicians and you somehow know that you are one of them. You don't need anyone to tell you. You just know.

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Re: QUESTION? WHAT CONSTITUTES A PERSON CALLING HIMSELF A REAL MAGICIAN?

Postby MCMAGIC » January 1st, 2010, 10:47 am

No, this isn't a Dumb thread Richard.

This thread appears to have gone over your head to quickly.
..You actually ignored my question about the FFFF and instead campare these magians at FFFF to the people doing a few tricks you think are determined to be a magician by laymen.

Laymen are not that stupid and I'm surprised you would say such a thing. For it is the very Laymen that determine a magicians success. "NOT ANOTHER MAGICIAN"

Is not a magician performing magic supposed to be an entertainer who is skilled in producing illusion by sleight of hand, deceptive devices..perhaps other things as well?

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Re: QUESTION? WHAT CONSTITUTES A PERSON CALLING HIMSELF A REAL MAGICIAN?

Postby MCMAGIC » January 1st, 2010, 10:49 am

Very good point Mark Lewis and a most interesting comment...Thank you

Now thats something to think about!


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Re: QUESTION? WHAT CONSTITUTES A PERSON CALLING HIMSELF A REAL MAGICIAN?

Postby Eoin O'hare » January 1st, 2010, 10:58 am

MCMAGIC wrote:

Could someone here please tell me what exactly constitutes a person calling themself a magician?


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Re: QUESTION? WHAT CONSTITUTES A PERSON CALLING HIMSELF A REAL MAGICIAN?

Postby Seuss » January 1st, 2010, 11:27 am

if you even know the ffff exists... you are a magician (or married to one)
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Re: QUESTION? WHAT CONSTITUTES A PERSON CALLING HIMSELF A REAL MAGICIAN?

Postby mrgoat » January 1st, 2010, 11:31 am

MCMAGIC wrote:No, this isn't a Dumb thread Richard.


Yeah it is.

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Re: QUESTION? WHAT CONSTITUTES A PERSON CALLING HIMSELF A REAL MAGICIAN?

Postby MCMAGIC » January 1st, 2010, 11:46 am

Thank you Seuss............Then it's true as Paul Gordon stated ..Though Paul stated "ONCE ORGANIZED", is this not true today with the FFFF? Are these people attending the FFFF required to meet the standard of excellence in todays world of magic & magicians?

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Re: QUESTION? WHAT CONSTITUTES A PERSON CALLING HIMSELF A REAL MAGICIAN?

Postby MCMAGIC » January 1st, 2010, 12:10 pm

No Mrgoat, this is not a dumb thread..it's just to far over your head to understand & talk about what we magicians constitute in calling ourself a Magician.

Not to mention this is about my question on the Genii Forum to those who care to share the interest.

May I ask you this Mrgoat? If you yourself claim to be a Magician & Richard Kaufman too ....That means you both deal with people and understand them . If this is true , how could either one of you go out of your way to cut into a thread someone brought up of interest to themselves looking for answers ...and saying it's a "DUMB THREAD"?

Did either one of you take my feelings into consideration before you both called my thread "DUMB"?

..It appears to me that neither one of you perform magic in the real world successfully for real people..... Considering your very bitter comment to this thread.

But it's ok, I just joined this Genii Forum ( as I was highly recommended) and I got to see both your true colors from the start. Thank You

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Re: QUESTION? WHAT CONSTITUTES A PERSON CALLING HIMSELF A REAL MAGICIAN?

Postby Jonathan Townsend » January 1st, 2010, 12:18 pm

In answer to your direct question of me - if the subject comes up I call myself a hobbyist and student of magic.
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Re: QUESTION? WHAT CONSTITUTES A PERSON CALLING HIMSELF A REAL MAGICIAN?

Postby MCMAGIC » January 1st, 2010, 12:44 pm

Thank you Jonathan,
For bringing it upon yourself in being a stand -up guy in sharing your true thoughts in this thread.

You may be a hobbyist & student of magic, however , gathering from all the postings of yours I recently read....I bet you would prove to be a most amazing magical performer in the real world Jon.

I understand alot of us work our jobs to support our families...It is also a way of the world that it is never to late and we are never to old to become magical entertainers...If of course we chose that direction. Just a future thought to think of.



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Re: QUESTION? WHAT CONSTITUTES A PERSON CALLING HIMSELF A REAL MAGICIAN?

Postby vtlaurent » January 1st, 2010, 12:56 pm

Unless I misunderstood something, I actually find this question really interesting. In fact it motivated me to register on this forum so that I can respond. (I can understand how from a certain perspective the question may seem uninteresting.)

Does the question refer to the difference between magicians and 'trick performers'? Personally, I see a big difference between the two. I think most of us would. And yet, defining the difference is not easy.

Imagine you find a stone in nature. You pick it up and discover it has true magical properties, like you levitate each time you hold it. You probably would want to show it to people around you. How would you? How would you talk about it? How would you treat it? Compare this to the way most so-called magicians approach a table and show a few tricks... can they call themselves magicians?

Being a 'real' magician, more than showing a list of tricks that fool, lies in how well you succeed creating the illusion of the presence of a magical power, a little bit like we see in fantasy stories. As in Robert-Houdin's famous quote "the magician is an actor playing the part of a magician". I would say people like Derren Brown and David Blaine got quite close and that this is one of the reasons they became so popular among the public.

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Re: QUESTION? WHAT CONSTITUTES A PERSON CALLING HIMSELF A REAL MAGICIAN?

Postby MCMAGIC » January 1st, 2010, 1:43 pm

You did not misunderstand anything my friend.

Welcome to the Genii Forum "vtlaurent"

What a great way to answer this question...It is quite obvious you have an unbelievable focused insight about magic & the performance of a true Magician.

You offer such an inspiring short story in your answer. One that only stands to reason in the real world.

I was highly recommended by the most professional magicians around today to join this Genii Forum, as they know I travel my own circles and one looking for strictly intellectual conversation with Magicians.

After seeing that side show theses two guys Richard Kaufman & Mrgoat layed on me using that 12 year old talk about this thread being "DUMB"...I almost immediatly left this Fourum....

Seems, there are people on here who can carry on intellectual conversations after all. Thanks Guys

Mark

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Re: QUESTION? WHAT CONSTITUTES A PERSON CALLING HIMSELF A REAL MAGICIAN?

Postby Richard Kaufman » January 1st, 2010, 1:49 pm

Here is your opening post:
"I have been performing close-up magic for years. Could I actually call myself a magician? Could someone here please tell me what exactly constitutes a person calling themself a magician?"

They're nonsense questions. If you've been performing close-up magic for years why do you have to ask if you can call yourself a magician? What the hell are you? An ice cream salesman?

A magician is someone who does tricks. That's the very short, very simple, and only answer to your question.

You can always skeedadle over to The Magic Cafe where you will probably create a very long thread with such nonsense.
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Re: QUESTION? WHAT CONSTITUTES A PERSON CALLING HIMSELF A REAL MAGICIAN?

Postby Seuss » January 1st, 2010, 1:56 pm

FYI: that "guy" Richard Kaufman you mention? He is not only the author and illustrator of a vast amount of books on the art... he also happens to be the editor/owner of Genii and this is HIS forum which he shares. So maybe implying he is incapable of intelligent conversation isn't the best idea.

Perhaps if your initial post here had been more substantial and deep than "I have been performing close-up magic for years . Could I actually call myself a magician?" you'd have received a better reply since you almost answer your own question in it's asking.

Hopefully you will have better luck in future postings here.

EDIT: so true Richard. The green monster thrives on threads like this. lol
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Re: QUESTION? WHAT CONSTITUTES A PERSON CALLING HIMSELF A REAL MAGICIAN?

Postby mrgoat » January 1st, 2010, 2:04 pm

MCMAGIC wrote:No Mrgoat, this is not a dumb thread. it's just to far over your head to understand & talk about what we magicians constitute in calling ourself a Magician.


You're probably right. You are bringing up some concepts I've not thought of.
Sorry for being so rude.

MCMAGIC wrote:Not to mention this is about my question on the Genii Forum to those who care to share the interest.


Who suggested it wasn't your thread? Not I, my friend.

MCMAGIC wrote:May I ask you this Mrgoat? If you yourself claim to be a Magician & Richard Kaufman too ....
That means you both deal with people and understand them . If this is true , how could either one of you go out of your way to cut into a thread someone brought up of interest to themselves looking for answers ...and saying it's a "DUMB THREAD"?


You are right. I feel embarrassed.

MCMAGIC wrote:Did either one of you take my feelings into consideration before you both called my thread "DUMB"?


I can only speak for myself, but I assure you I didn't consider your feelings once. This seems churlish now.

MCMAGIC wrote:..It appears to me that neither one of you perform magic in the real world successfully for real people..... Considering your very bitter comment to this thread.


Richard doesn't sound like he knows what he talking about mate. He swans about here sometimes like he bloody owns the place. I would have it out with him.

MCMAGIC wrote:But it's ok, I just joined this Genii Forum ( as I was highly recommended) and I got to see both your true colors from the start. Thank You

Mark



Please don't think this is my true colours. I apologise for calling your thread dumb. It is just because I don't understand the concepts you are laying on us. Deep man!

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Re: QUESTION? WHAT CONSTITUTES A PERSON CALLING HIMSELF A REAL MAGICIAN?

Postby mrgoat » January 1st, 2010, 2:06 pm

MCMAGIC wrote:
You may be a hobbyist & student of magic, however , gathering from all the postings of yours I recently read....I bet you would prove to be a most amazing magical performer in the real world Jon.


True. I bet if young Johnny applied himself he could one day even CREATE a whole new idea in magic that everyone ends up doing. Like, oh, I don't know, something like 3 fly (you know - finger tip coins across).

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Re: QUESTION? WHAT CONSTITUTES A PERSON CALLING HIMSELF A REAL MAGICIAN?

Postby Mark.Lewis » January 1st, 2010, 2:19 pm

I remember the moment I realised I was a magician. I had been doing and studying magic for quite a while as a beginner and becoming more advanced as time went by. Then one day I was watching a magic show and there were lots of other magicians in the audience. I knew many of them. I looked at them and thought about it. I remember thinking, "Gee, I guess I am actually a magician now" It was quite a moment.

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Re: QUESTION? WHAT CONSTITUTES A PERSON CALLING HIMSELF A REAL MAGICIAN?

Postby MCMAGIC » January 1st, 2010, 2:22 pm

I have been performing close-up magic for years, not for people or magicians. I'm in a different line of business. I have never called myself a magician, nor do I intend to.

I asked a normal question: no one had to answer or insult me..It's a free World Man.

Richard Kaufman started by implying the best he could, and I understand that " CALLING IT A DUMB THREAD" He didn't have to did he?

He then ends it by telling me to go to another site called The Magic Cafe. He didn't have to did he?

My questions and conversations are my own, if someone wishes to share them so be it, if not "THEN DON'T"

IN THE REAL WORLD WORLD ONE FINDS OUT WHAT GOES AROUND "REALLY GOES AROUND"

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Re: QUESTION? WHAT CONSTITUTES A PERSON CALLING HIMSELF A REAL MAGICIAN?

Postby vtlaurent » January 1st, 2010, 2:29 pm

Richard Kaufman wrote:A magician is someone who does tricks. That's the very short, very simple, and only answer to your question.



Richard,
Coming back to Robert-Houdin's definition "an actor playing the part of a magician", would you consider anyone doing a trick to comply with this definition?

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Re: QUESTION? WHAT CONSTITUTES A PERSON CALLING HIMSELF A REAL MAGICIAN?

Postby MCMAGIC » January 1st, 2010, 2:33 pm

Thank you Mrgoat for helping me to understand you & my question.

I do not dislike anyone in any way including Richard Kaufman,in fact I have been a long time suscriber of Genii and enjoy it very much.

I will however not hide the so many things in magic that magicians are so afraid to talk about.

It is my belief the World of Magic should move on and not stand still simply because books have been written and things have been said.

I have much to talk about .

Thanks Guys

Mark

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Re: QUESTION? WHAT CONSTITUTES A PERSON CALLING HIMSELF A REAL MAGICIAN?

Postby Seuss » January 1st, 2010, 2:36 pm

MCMAGIC wrote:I have been performing close-up magic for years, not for people or magicians.


I am confused, were you performing in an empty room? For the family pet? Normally a performance has an audience otherwise you are simply practicing/rehearsing.

Also I don't think anyone insulted you... just stated their opinion about the thread.
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Re: QUESTION? WHAT CONSTITUTES A PERSON CALLING HIMSELF A REAL MAGICIAN?

Postby MCMAGIC » January 1st, 2010, 2:51 pm

Yes , you are right Seuss, no one insulted me.

Normally a performance has an audience.
I can understand you saying and thinking this Seuss, but then that may be the only level of magic you are aware of. Did you know there are other levels of sleight of hand that are never seen by anyone?

This perhaps is magic as most people (magicians) don't know and would be affraid to...I'm not really sure.

A most interesting topic and one I believe is far to deep for the Genii Forum.

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Re: QUESTION? WHAT CONSTITUTES A PERSON CALLING HIMSELF A REAL MAGICIAN?

Postby mrgoat » January 1st, 2010, 2:54 pm

MCMAGIC wrote:Richard Kaufman started by implying the best he could, and I understand that " CALLING IT A DUMB THREAD" He didn't have to did he?

He then ends it by telling me to go to another site called The Magic Cafe. He didn't have to did he?


Yeah man! He is being OUT OF ORDER!!! It's like he owns this website the way he is acting.

I think you should contact a mod and complain.

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Re: QUESTION? WHAT CONSTITUTES A PERSON CALLING HIMSELF A REAL MAGICIAN?

Postby Mark.Lewis » January 1st, 2010, 3:00 pm

vtlaurent wrote:
Richard Kaufman wrote:A magician is someone who does tricks. That's the very short, very simple, and only answer to your question.



Richard,
Coming back to Robert-Houdin's definition "an actor playing the part of a magician", would you consider anyone doing a trick to comply with this definition?


That Robert-Houdin quote has been taken out of context for years. He didn't mean by it what magicians think he meant by it. He was actually having a little dig at people doing flourishes, in other words juggling rather than magic. It is about time people read the full statement rather than the part of it that was taken out of context.

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Re: QUESTION? WHAT CONSTITUTES A PERSON CALLING HIMSELF A REAL MAGICIAN?

Postby vtlaurent » January 1st, 2010, 3:08 pm

Mark.Lewis wrote:
vtlaurent wrote:
Richard Kaufman wrote:A magician is someone who does tricks. That's the very short, very simple, and only answer to your question.



Richard,
Coming back to Robert-Houdin's definition "an actor playing the part of a magician", would you consider anyone doing a trick to comply with this definition?


That Robert-Houdin quote has been taken out of context for years. He didn't mean by it what magicians think he meant by it. He was actually having a little dig at people doing flourishes, in other words juggling rather than magic. It is about time people read the full statement rather than the part of it that was taken out of context.


Mark, thank you for the clarification. I will do my best to find the context (I think they have his book in the Magic Circle's library) and see if the context indeed changes the meaning of the quote as you are suggesting.

Set it aside for now.... according to you, is there a difference between a magician and a trick performer?

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Re: QUESTION? WHAT CONSTITUTES A PERSON CALLING HIMSELF A REAL MAGICIAN?

Postby Richard Kaufman » January 1st, 2010, 3:29 pm

"I have been performing close-up magic for years, not for people or magicians."

I can't even imagine how to respond to that. Suess got there before me. Do you perform for your pets? Martians? Dead relatives you keep seated around the dining room table?

Your question is not "deep." It's superficial to the point of non-existance and, as has been noted, has either an obvious response or no response whatsoever because it makes no sense.
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Re: QUESTION? WHAT CONSTITUTES A PERSON CALLING HIMSELF A REAL MAGICIAN?

Postby Phil Angees » January 1st, 2010, 3:38 pm

Here's my Dime and Penny's worth. About ten years ago I was at a San Diego magic shop when some other customer offered to do MacDonald's Aces for me. It was definitely one of the most magical things I've ever seen, and I've been involved with magic for nearly forty-five years. I asked him if he performed professionally, and he said no, he flies 747s for a living. As far as I'm concerned, he's a pilot and a magician. Not long after that I attended an IBM meeting and some forgettable soul did an even more forgettable card trick for the group. (I think this putz actually gets paid to be inept.) Anyway, in the course of doing said card trick he did a classic pass that was visible from about thirty feet away, which, by coincidence, was how far away from his hands was I. Had I been closer, I'm sure I would have heard it, too. After he finished entertaining us I told him his pass was visible. He brushed me off quicker than Tiger drops his pants. I don't consider this schmo to be a magician, but I reckon he does.

But to answer the question, "WHAT CONSTITUTES A PERSON CALLING HIMSELF A REAL MAGICIAN?", the answer is easy--there is no real magic, therefore there are no real magicians.

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Re: QUESTION? WHAT CONSTITUTES A PERSON CALLING HIMSELF A REAL MAGICIAN?

Postby MCMAGIC » January 1st, 2010, 3:49 pm

Believe me, a select few out there hearing this type of talk know exactly what I am talking about. Think about it.

Not for people or magicians....
......If no one sees the magic I am doing , than what is happening?

First ask yourself Why? Why am I doing it?

What's the motive? Is there a motive?

Is there a place ? Where is the place?

Much involved in professional sleight of hand....we are not talking tricks here!

What are you willing to do to create the most amazing sleight of hand of all time?

Mark

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Re: QUESTION? WHAT CONSTITUTES A PERSON CALLING HIMSELF A REAL MAGICIAN?

Postby Eoin O'hare » January 1st, 2010, 3:53 pm

MCMAGIC wrote:I have been performing close-up magic for years, not for people or magicians. I'm in a different line of business. I have never called myself a magician, nor do I intend to.

Mark, (MCMAGIC) What type of audience do you perform for?

(Isn't calling yourself MCMAGIC a little like calling yourself a magician?)
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Re: QUESTION? WHAT CONSTITUTES A PERSON CALLING HIMSELF A REAL MAGICIAN?

Postby Phil Angees » January 1st, 2010, 4:04 pm

MCMAGIC wrote:Believe me, a select few out there hearing this type of talk know exactly what I am talking about. Think about it.

Not for people or magicians....
......If no one sees the magic I am doing , than what is happening?

First ask yourself Why? Why am I doing it?

What's the motive? Is there a motive?

Is there a place ? Where is the place?

Much involved in professional sleight of hand....we are not talking tricks here!

What are you willing to do to create the most amazing sleight of hand of all time?

Mark

After reading that I'm afraid to drive.

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Re: QUESTION? WHAT CONSTITUTES A PERSON CALLING HIMSELF A REAL MAGICIAN?

Postby Mark Collier » January 1st, 2010, 4:10 pm

MCMAGIC, You sign your posts, 'Mark'. Is your last name Lewis?

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Richard Kaufman
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Joined: July 18th, 2001, 12:00 pm
Favorite Magician: Theodore DeLand
Location: Washington DC
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Re: QUESTION? WHAT CONSTITUTES A PERSON CALLING HIMSELF A REAL MAGICIAN?

Postby Richard Kaufman » January 1st, 2010, 4:17 pm

Curioser and curioser.
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