Too many ads in Genii!

Discuss general aspects of Genii.
Temperance
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Too many ads in Genii!

Postby Temperance » November 17th, 2003, 10:59 am

This is just a suggestion.

I was flicking through a recent Genii and of the 112 or so pages, 51 were taken up by advertising. That's almost half the magazine!

Do you really need so many adverts? It looks horrible, crass and tacky. I mean come on do you really need a two page magic zone spread with "rocco" the magician (the pornstar?) hanging out by his lambaurgini(sp) which he claimed he managed to buy after just six weeks in magic?

How about reducing the paper quality slightly and relegating the ads to maybe just a single two page spread?

You must lose quite a fair number of sales due to the amount of adverts in the magazine, I know I don't subscribe because of them.

As I say, just a suggestion.

Euan

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Re: Too many ads in Genii!

Postby Guest » November 17th, 2003, 11:02 am

The magazine needs to pay for itself and pay Mr Kaufmanns wages, I guess he needs as many adds as possible.

Carl Mercurio
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Re: Too many ads in Genii!

Postby Carl Mercurio » November 17th, 2003, 11:12 am

Euan,

It may be just a suggestion, but it's not a good one. A 112-page folio with 51 ads isn't even a 50-50 ad to edit ratio. And in a "community of interest" type publication such as Genii, the ads are as much a part of the editorial as the articles.

Jim Maloney_dup1
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Re: Too many ads in Genii!

Postby Jim Maloney_dup1 » November 17th, 2003, 11:16 am

You may find this post interesting: http://geniimagazine.com/forum/cgi-bin/ ... p=1#000000

BTW, if you think Genii has too many ads, try picking up a women's magazine like Cosmo or something...yipes.

-Jim

DanV
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Re: Too many ads in Genii!

Postby DanV » November 17th, 2003, 11:32 am

In my full-time field (IT), the trade magazine for my area of interest is at least, if not more than, 50% ads...but that's the way it is. How else do they support the mag? I'm guessing subscriptions don't support the magazine by themselves.

I'd rather Richard do that then raise the subscription fee to, say, $75 per year.

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Re: Too many ads in Genii!

Postby Tom Dobrowolski » November 17th, 2003, 11:44 am

In addition to all of the above I would wager that a number of the readers like to see all the ads. It keeps them abreast of what is available or soon will be.

Michel Huot
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Re: Too many ads in Genii!

Postby Michel Huot » November 17th, 2003, 12:16 pm

You have to have ads for this quality paper, color, etc. Or else it would look like Apocalypse or Richard's Almanac et al. Don't get me wrong those are incredible publications, not just the same kind of magazine.

Personnaly, I like ads, first they can give you ideas for your shows, and they can even give you ideas for a new trick.

It's fun to see what is the latest trick or book.

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Re: Too many ads in Genii!

Postby Ian Kendall » November 17th, 2003, 12:56 pm

For what it's worth, I enjoy reading (most) of the advertisments. We get to see what's over the horizon, laugh at some of them and get a couple of brain teasers each month working out methods for the effects described.

And I know I'm not the only one who does that...

Take care, Ian

Michel Huot
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Re: Too many ads in Genii!

Postby Michel Huot » November 17th, 2003, 1:13 pm

I'm right there with you Ian :p

CHRIS
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Re: Too many ads in Genii!

Postby CHRIS » November 17th, 2003, 1:59 pm

Here is an introduction how to publish a succesfull magazine. I have never in my life published a magazine, so what I write might be totally wrong, but if I think about it the following makes sense:

1) Subscription pays mainly for printing and distribution. Subscription ~$50. One issue printing costs ~$1.50 - $2 x 12 ~= $20; mailing is about $1 per issue, add some logistic and fulfillment and one is close at $50. Maybe a little profit.

2) Advertisements are the profit. $400 per page x 50 pages x 12 = $240k. Divide this by three to four full time employees, offices and other expenses and one can see that this is a sustainable effort.

I like advertisements - where else would I be able to convince you about the benefits of ebooks :-)

Chris Wasshuber
preserving magic one book at a time

Alain Roy
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Re: Too many ads in Genii!

Postby Alain Roy » November 18th, 2003, 6:50 am

I don't like advertisements, but I accept them. What are the alternatives? Well...

My favorite cooking magazine is Cook's Illustrated. There are no ads in the magazine. But what is the trade-off? For a price similar to or higher than other magazines, I get less content per magazine and it is only every other month.

If you want to have no ads, you have to be willing to pay more or accept less. How do you feel about that tradeoff?

I'm happy with the tradeoff that has been made, and am content to have ads in Genii. I want Richard and everyone else involved with the magazine to make a decent living, so they can keep on producing Genii.

-alain

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Re: Too many ads in Genii!

Postby Steve Hook » November 18th, 2003, 7:24 am

Alain:

Likewise:

SURFER magazine costs about $1.50/issue to subscribe to. The amount of advertising for boards, shorts, wetsuits, shoes, watches (non-magical), and aloha-print bedspreads is extensive.

SURFER'S JOURNAL has about four ads per issue and costs about $12/issue to subscribe to. Granted, the subject matter is more esoteric (and I buy every issue), but the point about the price difference is obvious.

I think we're lucky to have two magazines to choose in our little world of magic. I don't begrudge Richard his right to a profit.

Steve H

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Pete Biro
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Re: Too many ads in Genii!

Postby Pete Biro » November 18th, 2003, 9:13 am

Many photo magazines have huge ad vs. editorial ratios -- but that's what the readers want.
Stay tooned.

Dave Egleston
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Re: Too many ads in Genii!

Postby Dave Egleston » November 18th, 2003, 11:16 pm

Gee, a guy from England complains about free enterprise -- Should we nationalize and subsidize this magazine. Some people can not accept the idea of individual, independent success.

We should be applauding GENII as a success story without interference from government.

Dave

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Re: Too many ads in Genii!

Postby Ian Kendall » November 19th, 2003, 1:23 am

Er, Dave,

Euan's from Scotland. I'd advise you to put on the flak jacket everyone should have for just this occasion...

Take care, Ian

Temperance
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Re: Too many ads in Genii!

Postby Temperance » November 19th, 2003, 5:55 am

I'm not complaining at all, I just feel that a magic publication deserves to have a little more class than 8 consecutive pages of crass dealer ads.

Would the Pallbearers have been such a brilliant periodical if it was brimming with full page dealer ads promoting Illusionist and some random guy with a flash car? How about Pabular or the Chronicles, Epilogue, etc?

As I said, it was just a suggestion, no need to berate me just because of where I live (or rather where I don't live)

Euan (dons his Kilt)

CHRIS
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Re: Too many ads in Genii!

Postby CHRIS » November 19th, 2003, 7:53 am

I love Scotland and its people. I actually have a personal connection to them, but I won't go into that for now.

My point for Euan is that Genii is still kicking and alive after decades of existance whereas all the other great magazines are no more. That doesn't diminish their greatness. It just shows that a magazine which is economical not sustainable will die, sooner rather than later.

Chris Wasshuber
preserving magic one book at a time.

Jon Racherbaumer
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Re: Too many ads in Genii!

Postby Jon Racherbaumer » November 19th, 2003, 9:12 am

Ah, yes....advertising, hucksterism, promotion, sales...

In the past thirty years of polling magicians of every pedigree regarding WHAT they like to read (and in what order they read it) in magic magazines, an overwhelming number say, "I flip through the magazines and check out the ads FIRST...!"

One of my favorite mags is ADBUSTERS, which is exactly that...However, check out the newstand price! Even Architecttual Digest has ads. I think that if a mag has more than 50% ads, it must be categorized as a catalogue?

Every mag that I put out in the past (which were ad-less) lost money and had a pitifully low number of subscribers. SWIPE magazine was restricted to about 25 readers.

Several local hobbyists favorite pubs are the L & L Catalogue and the one Stevens Emporium puts out.

I've never been able to get a "handle" on what Linking Ring readers read or absorb. I've been doing the Parade section for 12 years and very few members know that I'm the Parade Editor or even study the Parades. Most check out the ads instead and read their own club-meeting reports. They also skim the pics. So it goes...

Question:

How many would subscribe to Genii if it was ad-less and the sub-rate was $150 yearly?

(Consider that a rhetorical question.)

In the meantime, I appreciate those who read the rest of Genii and take time to contribute to this Forum. I also appreciate the kind and positive remarks made concerning ON THE SLANT. I seldom get much feedback and assume that only 1 out of 5 read the columns, especially mine. Of course, I may be wrong?

I do, however, get negative comments, which are the ones I tend to save.

Onward...

Guest

Re: Too many ads in Genii!

Postby Guest » November 19th, 2003, 9:26 am

I think the important thing to think about is that those ads in Genii represent concrete items in the Kaufmanns' lives: shelter, food and clothing. Everytime you buy a copy of the magazine containing those ads, you put food on their table and clothes on their backs (and just as importantly, diapers on the baby). Without the ads, the magazine would not be a profit making venture. This is their BUSINESS after all.

Also, without those ads, Genii would not exist at all. Richard, as much as he loves magic, would not be able to keep this institution alive unless it was capable of supporting itself financially.

It seems to me that we have two choices : 1) we can live with the fact that Genii will contain a certain percentage of ads every month and continue to sell at its current price or 2) we can all agree to pay Mr. Kaufmann and family a stipend every month to subsidize them while they publish a ad-free magazine....

So what's it gonna be guys? 1 or 2?

Rosie

Temperance
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Re: Too many ads in Genii!

Postby Temperance » November 19th, 2003, 2:15 pm

Neither.. Secret option number 3

Reduce the paper quality (recycled paper for example, save the trees!) relegate the ads to a two page spread in the centre pages and increase the cost for actually advertising in the magazine.

Easy...

Euan

Jim Maloney_dup1
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Re: Too many ads in Genii!

Postby Jim Maloney_dup1 » November 19th, 2003, 2:37 pm

Originally posted by Euan:
Reduce the paper quality (recycled paper for example, save the trees!) ...
Recycled paper is perhaps an idea, but no matter what you do, you're still going to get a large number of advertisters in this, as well as pretty much every other magazine in existence. Like I said earlier, pick up any women's magazine next time you think then Genii has too many ads.

... relegate the ads to a two page spread in the centre pages ...
That's like asking TV advertisers to place all their commercials before or after the actual TV show. What happens? Everyone tunes in a bit later or earlier in order to skip the unwanted commercials. No one will see them, and that defeats the whole purpose of having ads in the first place. Like it or not, ads are a necessary evil.

...increase the cost for actually advertising in the magazine.
Sure, but then less people buy them, which means less revenue coming in. You need to strike a balance between cost of ads and number of purchasers. If the cost is too high, not enough people will buy to make it worth it. If the cost is too low, you get flooded with ads. I suspect Richard has found the balance point for Genii, though it is something that will constantly need to be experimented with.

Easy...
Not quite. If you think it's that easy, try running your own magazine. Until then, quite frankly, quit whining.

-Jim
PS -- I apologize for the whining remark, but honestly, if you don't like it, don't buy the magazine. Good luck finding one that suits your requirements.

John LeBlanc
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Re: Too many ads in Genii!

Postby John LeBlanc » November 19th, 2003, 3:00 pm

Originally posted by Euan:
This is just a suggestion.

I was flicking through a recent Genii and of the 112 or so pages, 51 were taken up by advertising. That's almost half the magazine!

Do you really need so many adverts? It looks horrible, crass and tacky.
I guess I view the ads a bit differently than others. I collect magic catalogs and I am a fan of magic ads.

To my way of thinking, aside from helping a publication become or remain profitable, ads help document the state of magic in any particular period. And I find it facinating to observe how things change over time.

Get hold of a copy of GENII from, say, the sixties and compare the ads to those of today.

Given the choice of a more expensive subscription or the current state of affairs, I'll take the ads with a smile and never ending curiosity.

John LeBlanc
Houston, TX

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Re: Too many ads in Genii!

Postby Guest » November 19th, 2003, 4:31 pm

Hooray, John LeBlanc! My sentiments exactly. Too many ads in Genii? No such thing. --Asrah

Dave Egleston
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Re: Too many ads in Genii!

Postby Dave Egleston » November 19th, 2003, 4:34 pm

It wasn't a personal attack on Euan - It's seems that almost all Eurpean answers to problems with profit, is to nationalize the entity.

And I'm truly sorry about the mistake with England - I get testy when someone miscalls my nationality

I love GENII and will subscribe until the day RK closes the door

Dave

Guest

Re: Too many ads in Genii!

Postby Guest » November 19th, 2003, 5:07 pm

I'm taking a business class right now and we watched a video on advertising. Most magazines are filled with 50% or more of adds. Unless the producer wants to give money from his own pocket or charge you an unreasonable price for the magazine, there will NEED to be advertisements in the magazine or it will go under. I honestly don't mind the adds, I find it cool to be able to see whats new in magic and to see what products are available at a decent price or where it is avaible. And if the adds were eliminated for more room for articles, you're looking at like a 30 or less paged magazine instead of a 112. If you don't like it then just don't buy it, it's your choice. As for me i'll stick to buying.

Guest

Re: Too many ads in Genii!

Postby Guest » November 19th, 2003, 5:23 pm

Originally posted by Euan:
Neither.. Secret option number 3

Reduce the paper quality (recycled paper for example, save the trees!) relegate the ads to a two page spread in the centre pages and increase the cost for actually advertising in the magazine.

Easy...

Euan
Hi Euan,

a note from working in the printing industry...

sometime recycled paper isn't always cheaper...

the recycled paper that is enviromentally friendly is actually more expensive to produce than paper from virgin pulp...


Why do recycled office papers cost more than those that don't contain recycled fiber?

It is generally more expensive to produce a recycled-content printing and writing paper than one without recycled fiber.

Here's why:

o Purchasing deinked pulp (recycled pulp) is typically more costly than nonrecycled pulp. Mills are dependent on the recovered fiber supply and market demand for these raw materials, the dynamics of which impact costs.

o Currently, market demand for recycled content printing and writing papers still remains fairly low. [although this may change given Staples recent announcement]

o Mills that produce printing and writing papers were not originally designed to use recycled fiber. Integrating recycled fiber requires technical changes that can increase capital expenditures and slow production. [this would include quality issues as well as transportation]

Not all recycled-content printing and writing papers cost more, but all of these factors are likely to impact the final cost.
That's from the website GreenYes.

So as you can see..saving trees will not reduce the cost...at least not yet...

Also..the quality of recycled paper is not as good as paper created with virgin pulp... the fibers are shorter and not as strong..

Now...Genii could be printed on non-glossy stock..but kiss the nice crisp details on photos and illustrations good-bye..the quality of artwork printed on matte paper suffers due to the quality of the paper...

Then you get into the advertising issues there..will the advertisers pay more money to advertise in a magazine where their wares will be showcased in a less than ideal manner??


Rosie

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Richard Kaufman
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Re: Too many ads in Genii!

Postby Richard Kaufman » November 19th, 2003, 9:47 pm

I've just returned from two weeks on the road in LA, Tokyo, and Shanghai, and have not seen this thread prior to tonight.
Chris Wasshuber's speculation about the cost of producing and mailing Genii is simply wrong. He doesn't work in our office and he doesn't know the numbers. Our costs are significantly higher than he suggests.
Genii lost money for the first three years I ran it, and now makes a measly profit each month. It's just enough to keep us going, and that's WITH the 45 or so pages of ads in a 112 page magazine.
Genii's ratio of ad to editorial is the opposite of MAGIC magazine's. We have about 60% content and 40% ads, they have 60% ads and 40% content. If you think there are too many ads in Genii, then you haven't looked at MAGIC in the past five years!
The cost of individual issues of niche-market magazines is usually almost double the cost of an issue of Genii (just go to your local Borders or Barnes and Noble and look at the cost of other small subscription mags). So, not only are we charging less than we need to for our product, we have a greater amount of editorial content vs. advertising than MANY of the magazines published today.
Advertising is a vital part of keeping Genii in business, so please spare me the complaints about the advertising. The advertising is NECESSARY to the existance of the magazine.
Subscribe today to Genii Magazine

Guest

Re: Too many ads in Genii!

Postby Guest » November 19th, 2003, 10:30 pm

I like the ads. Looking at them is one of my favorite parts of getting Genii. I like the hefty size of the magazine. I like the better quality paper. I like the weird articles the ads let me read. I still like to see color pictures of the new products. Flipping through the ads reminds me of wandering around the dealer tables at conventions which I also like to do. So, even if the economics were different, this subscriber supports keeping the ads.

Temperance
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Re: Too many ads in Genii!

Postby Temperance » November 20th, 2003, 1:53 am

Ok, well how about spreading the ads throughout the magazine slightly better then?

For example you very often get about 4-8 pages of ads in a block which you then have to wade through to get to the content... If you have it spaced out slightly, ie ad,content,ad,content,etc with the odd double page spread in the centre say.. It will look like there are less ads and more people will see them because they'll be placed next to something they actually bought the magazine to read.

Just a suggestion, something to think about perhaps.

Euan

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Re: Too many ads in Genii!

Postby Guest » November 20th, 2003, 2:47 am

I do read ads as well, heck thats why I only subscribe to sunday paper and only sunday paper.
But I also have a comment on spacing, maybe just maybe it would be possible to place ALL ads on the back of the mag? I will totally read them, i promise.
While ago this is what my sunday paper did; they put an extra flap of paper on the side of first page of comics the way that it obscures part of them and are running ads on it. You have to rip that piece away to get your commics. I'm still mad after more then a year and rip them off WITHOUT looking at them, haha I make a point of not looking at it.
ah well

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Tabman
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Re: Too many ads in Genii!

Postby Tabman » November 20th, 2003, 8:02 am

just remember that genii magazine is paying for this forum which is free to subscribers and non subscribers alike (very generous). i hadnt subscribed to genii since dante larsen lost control of the magazine some years ago but as soon as biro pointed me here and i saw what a great bunch of folks were onboard i subscribed immediately. being an old bbser im sure that i will be enjoying communicating here and hope to for years to come. even if i never read the magazine i have already gotten my $$$ worth. thanks richard. just my $.02.

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Richard Kaufman
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Re: Too many ads in Genii!

Postby Richard Kaufman » November 20th, 2003, 8:47 am

The placement of the ads in Genii is often dictated by where the color pages will fall in the signatures. The ads are placed together in groups because they must be since we cannot afford to run every page in full color. Only certain signatures (groups of 16 pages that are printed together) are in color, and this requirement is responsible for the placement of many of the articles and ads in the magazine.
Subscribe today to Genii Magazine

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Pete Biro
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Re: Too many ads in Genii!

Postby Pete Biro » November 20th, 2003, 9:04 am

Too bad you had to come home so soon and couldnd't take some vacation time on your trip.

Welcome back!

(Some just don't realize how much work and money it takes to print and distribute a magazine).

Hey guys, remember, we (the contributors) volunteeer out time, effort and money to put material in the magazine.

So, support Genii and quit complaining.
Stay tooned.

Guest

Re: Too many ads in Genii!

Postby Guest » November 20th, 2003, 9:06 am

Don't forget that this is advertising 'directly' to your customer. Well worth it and if you check the prices for advertising in either Magic or Genii, you will notice they are very affordable. Next, check the fee in other papers, mags, direct marketing etc. and you can understand why flocks of advertisers go to these magic mags.

With that affordability, no wonder Richard is making a only measley profit. For the time put in, he certainly desrves more than that. Even if Richard went to a 50/50 split on ads to articles, I would not be bothered. He needs this and we need to support his decisions to keep this magazine going strong. Advertising is the key.

Finally, if you choose not to subscribe to Genii because of the amount of Ads, Euan, then you are in fact the exception and not the rule.

www.JeffEzellMAGIC.com

Guest

Re: Too many ads in Genii!

Postby Guest » November 20th, 2003, 9:52 am

Magic advertising is great!

Each ad is a gem -- misdirection at its pinnacle.

There are few things that can actually fool magicians with the consistency that these ads fool.

Guest

Re: Too many ads in Genii!

Postby Guest » November 20th, 2003, 9:53 am

The original comment was naive and insulting, requiring no reply.

But to keep morale as high as it should be: Keep up the superlative work Richard! We think your GREAT!

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Re: Too many ads in Genii!

Postby CHRIS » November 20th, 2003, 10:07 am

Originally posted by 0pus:
There are few things that can actually fool magicians with the consistency that these ads fool.
This reminds me of an Al Baker quote in The Sphinx which, if I remember correctly, goes like this: "The only one who can consistently fool a magician is the dealer."

This is true today, as much as it was true 50 and 100 years ago.

Chris Wasshuber
preserving magic one book at a time.

Jim Morton
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Re: Too many ads in Genii!

Postby Jim Morton » November 20th, 2003, 11:14 am

Euan, ads are the lifeblood of nearly every magazine. When a magazine doesn't have ads, you pay for it.

As Richard explained, where the ads fall is all about 'signatures.' Since I'm betting you are not familiar with printing, here's how it works: Take a sheet of paper, and scribble all over one side of it. We'll call that the color side. That is the side that the ads must fall on. Fold the sheet in half, then in half again, then in half again. Staple the sheet along the final fold and trim it on the three unstapled sides as if you were making a little magazine out of it. As you thumb through the pages, you will notice that some pages have scribbling on them and some don't. The pages with scribbling are where the ads will fall. When a magazine is printed, it is printed on a much larger sheet than the final size of the magazine. The sheet is then folded up and trimmed. This sheet is called a signature. Understand now?

Personally, I love ads. When I buy old magic magazines, I am always disappointed by the ones that don't have ads. They may have great effects, but they have little, if any, connection to the time and place in which they were created.

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Re: Too many ads in Genii!

Postby Jon Racherbaumer » November 20th, 2003, 11:39 am

Ads, old and new, are snapshots of our passing fancies and our curious, pop sub-culture. They tell us more about where we were and how we were and what, alas, we DREAMED of having, doing, and sharing.

Onward...

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Re: Too many ads in Genii!

Postby Dustin Stinett » November 20th, 2003, 11:41 am

Okay, we all know ads are important from a revenue standpoint and I hope Euan gets it now. But Im going to add to that the importance of ads for research. When Im working on a Book of the Month subject which happens to be old and I want to track down its history, one of the things I look for are the ads in the old issues of Genii and the Sphinx. Ads are quite easy to look for in a magazine. When those ads first start appearing helps provide a timeline that leads to other sources of information (reviews, articles, etc.) and makes them easier to find. Thank God for ads!

Dustin
(Yes Chris, I know, a digitized source will make that search faster and easier.)


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