ERDNASE

Discuss general aspects of Genii.
JHostler
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Re: ERDNASE

Postby JHostler » September 26th, 2020, 5:49 pm

Richard Hatch wrote:... I wondered why he would have had the book printed in Chicago, when he could have done it in house.


I assume for the same reason he used a pseudonym. Upstanding member of the community etc. etc. The nine-year age difference doesn't bother me so much; a man in good health at 49 could pass for 40. The deal-breaker for me (after floundering for a few hours) was a lack of apparent connection to either magic or gambling. Argh!
"Explanations exist; they have existed for all time; there is always a well-known solution to every human problem — neat, plausible, and wrong." H.L. Mencken

Bill Mullins
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Re: ERDNASE

Postby Bill Mullins » September 28th, 2020, 11:50 pm

Four new editions (to me) of Erdnase in the last week. L to R: Czech, Spanish, German, and Trustman graphic novel.

Image

Edward Pungot
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Re: ERDNASE

Postby Edward Pungot » September 29th, 2020, 2:29 am

It must be interesting flipping through a familiar text in a foreign language. It's like watching a foreign film without the subtitles. The brain reverts back to a childlike state of wonder.

Bill Mullins
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Re: ERDNASE

Postby Bill Mullins » September 30th, 2020, 10:46 am

As I earlier noted here:

Bill Mullins wrote:I just tried to go to MAM's single-page Erdnase thread, and it was gone. I hope this is a temporary glitch -- it was awfully convenient to have it formatted that way.


Good news -- it is available at another location.

chetday
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Re: ERDNASE

Postby chetday » September 30th, 2020, 11:26 am

I'm thinking about buying the graphic novel version because I like graphic novels almost as much as I like magic. Is it worth the money, Bill? At my age I should be downsizing my magic library instead of adding to it, but I'm tempted on this one.

Jason England
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Re: ERDNASE

Postby Jason England » September 30th, 2020, 3:06 pm

The Spanish graphic novel "The Last Gambler" was also printed in Dutch (I believe). I know this because the Dutch version showed up at my house the other day completely out of the blue. I don't think I ordered it, so it must be a very nice gift from someone involved in its production.

Thank you, whomever you are!

Jason

Bill Mullins
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Re: ERDNASE

Postby Bill Mullins » September 30th, 2020, 10:18 pm

chetday wrote:I'm thinking about buying the graphic novel version because I like graphic novels almost as much as I like magic. Is it worth the money, Bill? At my age I should be downsizing my magic library instead of adding to it, but I'm tempted on this one.


I don't think I can answer that, for a lot of reasons -- the big one being that I don't know how much you like $25 vs how much you like graphic novels, especially considering that Expert is not a book that lends itself to the graphic novel format. I can tell you that I'm pleased to have mine (but I am not normal -- I already have 35 or so different variants, and I just bought 3 more different editions that I can't even read [and 35 is bush league compared to Jason and a couple of other folks]). I will note that I am sure that the artist got quite tired of drawing Erdnase's face and hands -- the art is somewhat repetitive in that respect. The book is large. I would have preferred smaller pages and more of them. The cover stock tends to curl. OTOH, $25 isn't too much for this sort of thing. The next one I'm looking at getting is this, another quasi-facsimile that I just noticed, and it is $50. And having just got the 3 foreign editions pictured, I'm pricing some of the other foreign editions that have been available -- but unfortunately, several of them seem to have gone out of print. I'm also intrigued by these:
Image

Jason England
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Re: ERDNASE

Postby Jason England » October 1st, 2020, 3:43 pm

Bill,

I may have missed this, but where are those hardbacks of various colors shown in the picture from?

Jason

John Bodine
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Re: ERDNASE

Postby John Bodine » October 1st, 2020, 7:32 pm

Jason, those are journals from MagicEncarta.

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Re: ERDNASE

Postby Bill Mullins » October 1st, 2020, 8:07 pm

What John said.

link

And John -- I have your book packaged up and should be taking it to the post office tomorrow.

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Re: ERDNASE

Postby Bill Mullins » October 15th, 2020, 8:22 pm

Is your first edition copy of Expert toxic?

Richard Hatch
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Re: ERDNASE

Postby Richard Hatch » October 17th, 2020, 1:23 pm

I've agreed to give a 50 minute talk entitled "Chasing Erdnase" as part of the upcoming United Magicians for the World event in a few weeks. This will be followed by a discussion. My talk will be in English at 8 p.m. Italian time on Sunday, October 25th. I believe that will be 3 p.m. EST (because they go on their version of daylight savings time that weekend). The entire 100 hour event looks really good and a donation of any size gets you access. Here's a link, which will be updated as more details are added:
http://www.unitedmagiciansfortheworld.com/

Leonard Hevia
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Re: ERDNASE

Postby Leonard Hevia » October 25th, 2020, 4:33 pm

Mr. Hatch presented a fascinating PowerPoint synopsis on Erdnase that in short was like the entire Erdnase thread condensed into a one hour discussion. Anyone dropping in to hear this scholar would have been rewarded with an up to date summary on just about all things Erdnase. I don't agree with him on the supposed differing writing styles of Sanders and Erdnase. One need not look further than Bob Coyne's PDF on Sanders for the compelling comparisons. I also don't believe Gallaway's writing style even remotely resembles Erdnase. It's totally stilted with none of the Erdnase sly humor.

Carlo Morpurgo
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Re: ERDNASE

Postby Carlo Morpurgo » October 26th, 2020, 10:33 am

Richard Hatch wrote:I've agreed to give a 50 minute talk entitled "Chasing Erdnase" as part of the upcoming United Magicians for the World event in a few weeks. This will be followed by a discussion. My talk will be in English at 8 p.m. Italian time on Sunday, October 25th. I believe that will be 3 p.m. EST (because they go on their version of daylight savings time that weekend). The entire 100 hour event looks really good and a donation of any size gets you access. Here's a link, which will be updated as more details are added:
http://www.unitedmagiciansfortheworld.com/


Any chances the lecture could be available in the future?

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Re: ERDNASE

Postby Richard Hatch » October 26th, 2020, 2:10 pm

Carlo, my understanding is that the presentations (including mine) were only available to live stream during the 100 hours. I believe they were being recorded, however, so perhaps they will be made available at some point. I have been approached about giving a similar presentation to other groups as a result of this, so that might happen.

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Re: ERDNASE

Postby Richard Hatch » October 29th, 2020, 9:08 pm

Just ran across this video, posted recently on this topic. I thought it was pretty good, aside from a few minor errors, on the MFA theory. Looking forward to the forthcoming video that presents an opposing point of view.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=A-9c7B2lo9U

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Re: ERDNASE

Postby Leonard Hevia » November 14th, 2020, 11:52 pm

Alex Romanoff's second video is out and this one delves into W.E. Sanders. Nothing really new here for those who have followed the trail on Sanders, but it was fun to watch. Mentioning that Sanders had met Marshall Smith in that Chicago hotel was a stretch but Sanders wasn't far away from there at the time. The upcoming third video will discuss Hatch's candidate E.S. Andrews.

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=iCM0tx3r-Fs

Jack Shalom
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Re: ERDNASE

Postby Jack Shalom » December 2nd, 2020, 12:19 pm

I had not been much convinced by Chris W's defense of Gallaway before, but his latest newsletter contains some persuasive pieces of information which make me much more inclined to view Gallaway as a credible candidate.

As a teen-ager, Gallaway had written up a newspaper story on con games at the local circus including thimble-rigging, and he details the method and expresses his views of the suckers playing. I think it's at least as persuasive as WE Sanders's multiple decks of cards.

Bill Mullins
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Re: ERDNASE

Postby Bill Mullins » December 3rd, 2020, 12:36 am

Jack -- have you already received a newsletter for this week? I have not, and I don't see one on the rolling archive at lybrary.com

Jack Shalom
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Re: ERDNASE

Postby Jack Shalom » December 3rd, 2020, 6:37 am

Bill, I received on 12/2 11:47 am NYC time newsletter #957 which is dated 12/3.

Odd, I don't see it posted on the website either. Maybe he doesn't post the current copy and waits until the next week?

Leave me your email in a PM and I'll forward a copy to you.

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Re: ERDNASE

Postby Bill Mullins » December 3rd, 2020, 11:51 am

Okay, I received a copy during the night, and I've read it.

Two comments, which are consistent with my arguments about Chris and his methods for the past few years.

1. The "editorial" in question might better be characterized as a feature/news article; I've read it in its entirety (not just the snippets Chris copies) and I see no reason to call it an "editorial" (unless, of course, you have previously said that Gallaway was writing editorials at age 17 for the paper; and therefore any writing you find in the paper that you think bolsters the case for Gallaway must be called an "editorial" instead of simply an "article".) And there's no reason to suppose it was written by Gallaway over any other unnamed staff member of the Herald.

2. Chris says "In my ebook I have an entire section dedicated to the analytic negative . . ." (referring to phrases like "uses no sophistry" and "betray no confidences"). Does he? Ctrl-F "analytic" finds nothing; Ctrl-F "no sophistry" hits twice, and neither case is an analysis of the structure. Maybe he's thinking of an earlier, original examination of the structure. He says "it is rarely found in other works . . .particularly in combination with personal pronouns."

Except it is found:
Hoffmann, Modern Magic "we know no sleight", "you will find no difficulty", "you will have no difficulty", "you have no card concealed"

Roterberg, Latter Day Tricks, "our conjurer proving no exception"

Downs, Modern Coin Manipulation, "peformer . . . will find no difficulty", "show no trickery"

C. Lang Neil, After Dinner Sleights and Pocket Tricks, "draws no attention"

So, these new "revelations" are of a piece with the rest of the book -- find some snippet, that if it applied to Gallaway, might be construed to support the case that Gallaway was Erdnase. Then assume without evidence that it applies to Gallaway. (In this case, though, even if we knew with certainty that Gallaway wrote an article about a crooked carnival coming through town when he was seventeen, I can't see how it confirms that he wrote a book on sleight of hand 16 years later. The link is pretty tenuous.) Follow with sloppy research, based on the uncredited work of others.

Jack Shalom
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Re: ERDNASE

Postby Jack Shalom » December 3rd, 2020, 4:43 pm

I wasn't aware that the article wasn't signed. That puts a different light on it. But if it were found to be Gallaway's, then while not confirmatory evidence, I think it's a strong piece of evidence. As I said, much like WE Sanders decks of cards. It shows a strong interest in these kinds of matters--and interest enough to write about it. But certainly Chris would have to prove that it was Gallaway's article.

Actionjack
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Re: ERDNASE

Postby Actionjack » December 5th, 2020, 9:54 pm

I spent the last month finally digesting this entire thread. Thank you to everyone who has contributed and kindled my interest in the hunt for Erdnase. I am in no way connected to this gentleman but I just noticed this posted for sale on the Cafe. The story behind the discovery of this seems apropos.
https://www.themagiccafe.com/forums/vie ... 7&forum=78

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Re: ERDNASE

Postby Bill Mullins » December 6th, 2020, 12:40 pm

As part of the discussion above, I downloaded the most recent version of Chris's ebook. There is new material in it compared to the last time I checked, several months ago. He had committed to tell purchasers via email when the book was updated, and I haven't received such an email in some time. Are other people getting notifications?

Here's one line of argument made in the ebook.

1. Prof. Charles P. Wilson is known to have performed Punch and Judy shows.
2. There's a book called Copyfitting that Chris presumes is by Gallaway.
3. The introduction for it contains a line, "To all those who regard system as red tape, to all who can “guess close enough for all practical purposes,” our sincere advice on Copyfitting is the same as that Punch gave to the young man about to marry — Don't!"
4. Chris thinks Gallaway performed as Wilson. Chris: "Gallaway is quoting Punch. Why would anybody do that in a technical book on copyfitting? It is an odd choice, unless you are a Punch & Judy performer who is intimately familiar with the dialogue."
5. Wilson also performed magic.
6. Since Gallaway = Wilson, Gallaway performed magic and therefore wrote Expert.

So, the argument is a series of links in a chain, and the chain falls apart if any link (Gallaway = Wilson, Gallaway wrote Copyfitting, etc., etc.) fails. One of the links is that the Punch who gives advice is Punch of Punch & Judy.

It isn't. The author of Copyfitting wasn't referring to Punch & Judy. "Punch" refers to the British satirical magazine. See here.

Roger M.
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Re: ERDNASE

Postby Roger M. » December 7th, 2020, 9:35 pm

Chris doesn't do "research", he tells fantastical yarns based on bits and pieces of information he's dug up and stitched together with nothing more than a desire to stitch those yarns together.
He does this all with the specific goal of fulfilling his own personal confirmation bias regarding Gallaway.

Ultimately, he writes fiction (which is fine), but labels it "research" (which isn't fine).

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Brad Jeffers
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Re: ERDNASE

Postby Brad Jeffers » December 7th, 2020, 11:20 pm

Speaking of which ...
2020 is almost over. Has anyone received their copy of the Todd Karr book?

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Richard Kaufman
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Re: ERDNASE

Postby Richard Kaufman » December 8th, 2020, 11:42 am

Brad Jeffers wrote:Speaking of which ...
2020 is almost over. Has anyone received their copy of the Todd Karr book?


Hahahahaha.
Subscribe today to Genii Magazine

Actionjack
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Re: ERDNASE

Postby Actionjack » December 9th, 2020, 10:11 pm

Richard Hatch, I see that listing is now gone on the Cafe. Did you ever get an answer to your question regarding the provenance of the book?

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Re: ERDNASE

Postby Bill Mullins » December 9th, 2020, 11:27 pm

I PM'ed the poster at the Cafe and asked for pics of the books -- never heard back. Yesterday, I sent Slowdini a PM asking for pictures, and gave him my email address. I haven’t heard back from him.

Also, I’ve searched for any record of an Ernesto or any other magician drowning in Lake Ponchartrain. If it happened like Slowdini said, you’d think there would be some notice in newspapers or Genii or somewhere. I couldn’t find anything confirming the story.

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Re: ERDNASE

Postby Richard Hatch » December 10th, 2020, 12:55 am

Actionjack wrote:Richard Hatch, I see that listing is now gone on the Cafe. Did you ever get an answer to your question regarding the provenance of the book?

There was a posting 12 hours ago by someone wanting more details, then the topic disappeared. Does Slowdini have other posts on the Cafe?
I never got any reply to my questions. Strange!

Richard Hatch
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Re: ERDNASE

Postby Richard Hatch » December 10th, 2020, 1:02 am

Alex Romanoff did a 2.5 hour interview with me on the topic of the Erdnase Hunt and managed to edit it down to 30 minutes in an entertaining (I think!) way. This is his third Erdnase Hunt video in his "Art of Illusion" YouTube series. I think he may be burnt out on the topic for now, but I'd love to see him interview Chris Wasshuber, Marty Demarest, Todd Karr, Peter Zenner, Bill Mullins, Geno Munari, Juan Tamariz, etc. Here's a link to the most recent one (link to the others are available there in case you missed them here):
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vVRKECAPkl8

Tom Gilbert
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Re: ERDNASE

Postby Tom Gilbert » December 10th, 2020, 8:35 am

Interesting presentation Richard.

Bill Mullins
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Re: ERDNASE

Postby Bill Mullins » December 10th, 2020, 10:16 am

Richard Hatch wrote: Does Slowdini have other posts on the Cafe?


Yes, and they do not enhance his credibility.

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Re: ERDNASE

Postby Bill Mullins » December 12th, 2020, 1:11 pm

Brad Jeffers wrote:Speaking of which ...
2020 is almost over. Has anyone received their copy of the Todd Karr book?


The new issue of MUM has a cover feature on Todd.

Leonard Hevia
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Re: ERDNASE

Postby Leonard Hevia » December 12th, 2020, 1:52 pm

Another interesting and entertaining video by Romanoff. Mr. Hatch's anecdote about Alexander presenting his candidate in their hotel room the night before the Conference was worth the price of admission. The writing similarities between Erdnase and Sanders are too compelling to ignore. I wish Mr. Hatch would realize this.

Bob Coyne
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Re: ERDNASE

Postby Bob Coyne » December 14th, 2020, 3:13 am

Leonard Hevia wrote:Another interesting and entertaining video by Romanoff. Mr. Hatch's anecdote about Alexander presenting his candidate in their hotel room the night before the Conference was worth the price of admission. The writing similarities between Erdnase and Sanders are too compelling to ignore. I wish Mr. Hatch would realize this.

Yes, it was great hearing that anecodote! It surprises me that Richard Hatch doesn't hear the same writing voice in Sanders and Erdnase. I suspect it's partly due to lack of familiarity with Sanders' writing and that looking at illustrative examples (see below) side-by-side can help. The similarities are almost overwhelming.

One point to make first: Erdnase, himself, varies his style quite dramatically throughout the text. The Introduction and Card Table Artifice sections are most strongly what we think of as Erdnase's most characteristic voice. This is where he makes especially incisive comments and most strongly exhibits his personality and mode of thought. Much of the body of the main text, describing sleights, is very analytical and precise. There are generalizations and insights sprinkled throughout, but the main text is primarily focused on clearly describing how to perform the sleights. The third style is in the patter for the tricks, which has a much more oratorical flavor. All three styles, while different, are extremely well executed. Sanders, likewise, exhibits different styles in his various writings on mining, montana history and linguistics, and poems and anecdotes about his college classmates. And his writing effortlessly adapts to these disparate subjects and domains. In addition, Sanders training as an engineer is evident in Erdnase as well. For example, for a one-handed bottom deal, Erdnase describes how "the IMPETUS and DIRECTION given to each card must be nicely CALCULATED," much as how a physics student would think of the trajectory of body in motion after a force has being applied to it.

Erdnase and Sanders both take delight in pointing out hypocrisy. In this example, they both sarcastically mock the pretensions of so-called "professionals" and their inflated claims. In doing so, they use the same metaphor (EXHUMING) and almost identical alliteration ("wicked waste" vs " "wiles and wickedness").

Erdnase: Self-styled "EX-PROFESSIONALS" have regaled the public with ASTOUNDING DISCLOSURES of their former WILES and WICKEDNESS, and have proven a wonderful knowledge of the subject by EXHUMING SOME ANTIQUATED MOSS-COVERED ruses
Sanders: certainly in part it is too good to keep, and in a spirit of benevolence and as an offering upon the shrine of professional goodwill toward PROFESSIONAL brethren, the following extracts have been EXHUMED FROM THEIR OBSCURE PLACE OF BURIAL [...] and how many reports PRESUMING TO DESCRIBE mining properties are written that should never have been penned - because of the WICKED WASTE of ink resulting therefrom.

They both characterize the large quantities of worldly knowledge (wisdom) that they acquired in their younger days. And Sanders interestingly characterizes the "hustling" he performed in "many various lines," perhaps in a sly nod to his hustling at the card table.

Erdnase: We naturally began to imbibe WISDOM in COPIOUS DRAUGHTS at the customary sucker rates. ...and the sum of our PRESENT KNOWLEDGE is proffered in this volume
Sanders: We did a lot of hustlin' then and gained a HEAP OF KNOWLEDGE and picked VAST WISDOM UP IN CHUNKS in MANY VARIOUS LINES.

Erdnase is constantly emphasizing the best way to do this or that. Sanders does the same:

Erdnase: It is an EXCELLENT MANNER of holding the deck for the true shuffle, and SHOULD BE STRICTLY ADHERED TO on all occasions.
Sanders: this latter is an AXIOM in mining during this period of development, and SHOULD BE INVARIABLY FOLLOWED where possible.

They both talk about the excellence of devices in almost identical ways.

Erdnase: the MOST novel AND perfect MACHINES EVER CONSTRUCTED
Sanders: the simplest AND MOST easily manipulated DEVICE YET CONSTRUCTED

The often use the same distinctive phrases.

Erdnase: we sorrowfully admit that OUR OWN EARLY KNOWLEDGE was acquired ...
Sanders: From MY EARLY KNOWLEDGE of you

Erdnase: The bottom palm may be held while the deal is in progress WITHOUT INCONVENIENCE.
Sanders: leaves sufficient hight for passage WITHOUT INCONVENIENCE.

Or sometimes the same generalization is made (e.g. the impossibility of providing a single formula/description to cover all cases)

Erdnase: It is impossible to give a formula that will answer for every situation. There is no end to the variety of positions the desired cards may be in.
Sanders: To write out in full a sufficient description of any particular locality or working of a mine, or even to explain the locations from which a lot of samples have been taken, would be far too cumbersome for practical purposes.

Anyway, this is just scratching the surface. See http://www.cs.columbia.edu/~coyne/erdnase-sanders-use-of-language.html for approximately 250 corresponding examples between Erdnase and Sanders as well as a summary of the overall evidence and other goodies.

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Re: ERDNASE

Postby Leonard Hevia » December 15th, 2020, 9:15 pm

Great comparisons Bob! The example comparing the same distinctive phrases is amazing!

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Re: ERDNASE

Postby Richard Hatch » December 25th, 2020, 2:00 am

A new trailer featuring some familiar faces:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nK3Hcliay1Y

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Re: ERDNASE

Postby Brad Henderson » December 25th, 2020, 9:25 am

Bob - your case fails to convince. Take the copious draughts example - if that word choice had been repeated you would have a convincing case. But it isn’t. Just a paragraph on consuming knowledge which is hardly a unique concept.

In your examples either the most interesting and idiosyncratic word choices fail to be shared - only general concepts which hardly makes the case that they are the same writer - or when word choices are replicated they are hardly unique or idiosyncratic.

To suggest that it is unique for authors of instructional texts to focus on the best ways of doing things is hardly dispositive. If anything - not doing so would be unexpected.

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Re: ERDNASE

Postby Leonard Hevia » December 25th, 2020, 5:30 pm

Brad Henderson wrote:Bob - your case fails to convince. Take the copious draughts example - if that word choice had been repeated you would have a convincing case. But it isn’t. Just a paragraph on consuming knowledge which is hardly a unique concept.

In your examples either the most interesting and idiosyncratic word choices fail to be shared - only general concepts which hardly makes the case that they are the same writer - or when word choices are replicated they are hardly unique or idiosyncratic.

To suggest that it is unique for authors of instructional texts to focus on the best ways of doing things is hardly dispositive. If anything - not doing so would be unexpected.


Brad--If the most interesting and idiosyncratic word choices shared by Erdnase and Sanders fail to be listed in the above examples, Bob did not fail to overlook those types of words and lists a number of compelling examples in his PDF. The word dalliance:

Erdnase: If DALLIANCE with the deck is allowed [p60]
Erdnase: when the company will stand for DALLIANCE at all [p62]
Sanders: to tread the primrose paths of DALLIANCE and joyance. [CR bio]

Dalliance is an uncommon word used by both writers. Dalliance is defined as: "Frivolous spending of time; dawdling: passed the summer in idle dalliance."


Or perhaps the word coups:

Erdnase: Two or three COUPS in the course of an evening will not flush the quarry [p19]
Sanders: In fact, we're in a precious mess through all their COUPS des main [CR poem]


Or perhaps the word longitudinal:

Erdnase: The LONGITUDINAL Shift [p130]
Sanders: and their designations marked within the main LONGITUDINAL workings
Sanders: distance pieces, where necessary, retain the sets in their proper relative positions, LONGITUDINALLY;

Or perhaps the word coincident:

Erdnase: When the blind shuffles with the COINCIDENT jog and break [p126]
Erdnase: a movement appearing as COINCIDENT card table routine [p96]
Sanders: within the bin, approximately COINCIDENT with or at a slightly steeper inclination


Or perhaps the word countenance:

Erdnase: Where the civil authorities COUNTENANCE these institutions [p11]]
Sanders: ever at the front to give the light of his COUNTENANCE [CR bio]
Sanders: our friend Page was removing from his COUNTENANCE a week's ragged growth of whiskers [CR bio]


Or perhaps the word interwoven:

Erdnase: so that the left hand holds several cards that are not INTERWOVEN at the bottom [p162]
Sanders: so closely INTERWOVEN as to make their undergraduate lives warp and woof of the same fabric


The fact that Bob did not list interesting and idiosyncratic words in his above comparisons does not imply they don't exist. I don't believe anybody can make an informed decision about Sanders' candidacy without first reading Bob's PDF.


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