ERDNASE

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Pete McCabe
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Re: ERDNASE

Postby Pete McCabe » February 25th, 2020, 1:04 pm

Another possibility is for people who have not received their books to just not read this thread until their book arrives.

Jonathan Townsend
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Re: ERDNASE

Postby Jonathan Townsend » February 25th, 2020, 2:46 pm

Pete McCabe wrote:Another possibility is for people who have not received their books to just not read this thread until their book arrives.
You're being rational again. :D

As a distraction... were Houdini and Twain traveling in the same area around 1900?
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Re: ERDNASE

Postby Joe Lyons » February 25th, 2020, 3:22 pm

Jonathan Townsend wrote:As a distraction... were Houdini and Twain traveling in the same area around 1900?


Hmmm.

No Houdini matches here: https://www.gutenberg.org/files/3196/3196-h/3196-h.htm

Or here: https://www.gutenberg.org/files/3197/3197-h/3197-h.htm

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Re: ERDNASE

Postby Roy M. McIlwee » February 25th, 2020, 4:42 pm

Jon, I'm not too sure if Houdini and Twain were traveling in the same area in 1900 but I do know who was. Edwin S. Andrews and the infamous Blonger brothers of Denver, Colorado. Andrews lived at 17th and Stout in 1900 which was the absolute epicenter of the Blonger crime dynasty.

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Re: ERDNASE

Postby Joe Lyons » February 25th, 2020, 5:47 pm


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Christopher1979
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Re: ERDNASE

Postby Christopher1979 » February 25th, 2020, 6:14 pm

Joe Lyons wrote:There is this:

https://lookingforerdnase.com/thread/


Seriously!.... Wow!... Thank you, Joe.

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Re: ERDNASE

Postby Jonathan Townsend » February 26th, 2020, 11:59 am

Google handles the search string with no problems
https://www.themagiccafe.com/forums/vie ... &forum=188

Courtesy to the folks who ordered the book and will have it in a few days seems a good idea. Let them find the contents as presented rather than as footnotes or remedial reading. Spoilers is a notion from the world outside, and a time before opening that first book distinguishing effect from method.

A thread of "would you really try this in a card game with money on the table" might be fun though :)
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Re: Discuss Steve Forte's Book "Gambling Sleight of Hand" HERE

Postby Randy Naviaux » February 26th, 2020, 2:35 pm

I have it. I feel grateful that I'm in a financial place that I could afford this book.

A couple thoughts about it:

1. At first I skimmed over it looking at random pages and sentences. I was struck by how each thing I read was aimed at an issue I had experienced or was struggling with.

A simple example: How to deal with a break showing up along the side of the deck when picking up a jog when doing an overhand shuffle control. I've always thought that was a real problem. As I said I just glanced through the book and he mentions the same issue.

There were other comments like that.

2. Decided to stop skimming and start in at the beginning.

I am only 60 or so pages in but its already been worth the purchase price.

As I advance in years I am more and more preoccupied with things that I think are true but just maybe aren't. How do you find out some cherished idea or belief you have is simply false? Not always easy to see.

It helps when someone who has put in the work comes along and points you in the right direction. Mr. Forte has uncovered several things that I considered true and presented me with another way to look at it.

3. I thought the advertising on the website was a little "off" when it he mentioned that with a little practice one could learn things in the book. Going through the section on how to practice and just touching upon the riffle shuffle basics I am beginning to see what he was saying. There are small touches presented that will improve the look of what you are doing but aren't going to take years to master.

(I'm sure there are hard things to learn as well.)

Simply put, this is the book I have wanted since reading Scarne's claim about dead cutting aces back in 77.

Can't wait to get back to it. Gotta pay the bills though:)

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Re: Discuss Steve Forte's Book "Gambling Sleight of Hand" HERE

Postby Richard Kaufman » February 26th, 2020, 7:43 pm

I've read most of the portion of Steve's book which directly addresses Expert at the Card Table. In one sense I am not shocked because I have always believed Erdnase was an amateur magician. But in every other sense I am shocked by Steve's Erdnase chapter. (No spoilers yet.) It would seem very difficult for anyone to mount a successful argument against the conclusion Steve draws because of the overwhelming amount of evidence he presents.
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Re: Discuss Steve Forte's Book "Gambling Sleight of Hand" HERE

Postby Christopher1979 » February 26th, 2020, 8:02 pm

I agree with you, Richard. Interestingly, one of the books Steve was using for his supporting evidence I had on my bookshelf so I was very much enjoying flicking through it at the points he was relating to.

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Re: Discuss Steve Forte's Book "Gambling Sleight of Hand" HERE

Postby JustinM » February 26th, 2020, 10:06 pm

Chris,

Which book was mentioned? My books don't come until tomorrow!

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Re: Discuss Steve Forte's Book "Gambling Sleight of Hand" HERE

Postby Christopher1979 » February 27th, 2020, 12:30 am

Many are mentioned but what I was referring to was a Jonathan Green gambling book from 1857

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Re: Discuss Steve Forte's Book "Gambling Sleight of Hand" HERE

Postby JustinM » February 27th, 2020, 1:10 am

I'm familiar with Jonathan Green and of course that's one book I DON'T HAVE......

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Re: Discuss Steve Forte's Book "Gambling Sleight of Hand" HERE

Postby performer » February 27th, 2020, 4:27 am

Richard Kaufman wrote:I've read most of the portion of Steve's book which directly addresses Expert at the Card Table. In one sense I am not shocked because I have always believed Erdnase was an amateur magician. But in every other sense I am shocked by Steve's Erdnase chapter. (No spoilers yet.) It would seem very difficult for anyone to mount a successful argument against the conclusion Steve draws because of the overwhelming amount of evidence he presents.


I get a vibe he was a very well known amateur magician under his real name. I am psychic and know these things.

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Re: Discuss Steve Forte's Book "Gambling Sleight of Hand" HERE

Postby Jonathan Townsend » February 27th, 2020, 9:52 am

? The cant of the reformed(?) gambler?
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Re: Discuss Steve Forte's Book "Gambling Sleight of Hand" HERE

Postby Joe Lyons » February 27th, 2020, 10:35 am

Christopher1979 wrote:Many are mentioned but what I was referring to was a Jonathan Green gambling book from 1857

Green is mentioned in the Britland and Gazzo book Phantoms of the Card Table.

He was named as father of the gambling expose.

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Re: Discuss Steve Forte's Book "Gambling Sleight of Hand" HERE

Postby Christopher1979 » February 27th, 2020, 10:42 am

Yes!, as Richard pointed out Steve has some overwhelming evidence. Green is just one of a long line of supporting references

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Re: Discuss Steve Forte's Book "Gambling Sleight of Hand" HERE

Postby PapaG » February 27th, 2020, 10:45 am

I see from my new arrivals that Steve must have finally baulked at the idea of signing two thousand books.

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Re: ERDNASE

Postby webbmaster » February 27th, 2020, 10:55 am

A move that is very useful for mentalists and mental-magic practitioners is the Charlier Shuffle. Many magicians don't know the move and think I'm talking about the Charlier Cut. Also, Erdnase himself says it is NOT a good move and every schoolboy knows it, but I think it has gone full circle and nowadays is a useful thing. It is good at the beginning of a routine with a setup if you learn to do it casually. Then you can take out a Joker to get a break and double-undercut to the break to get your setup back in order. If you don't do that (or cut to a short card or crimp, or bridge) the deck will be like it was given a straight cut. Later in the routine you can do false cuts or Zarrow's or whatever, but at the start it is useful and casual. I've found that every schoolboy doesn't know this, anymore, and many magicians seem not to know it.

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Re: Discuss Steve Forte's Book "Gambling Sleight of Hand" HERE

Postby JustinM » February 27th, 2020, 12:24 pm

Just received my books this afternoon in Canada..... Speechless, overwhelmed, and extremely grateful to the "40 team"....

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Re: Discuss Steve Forte's Book "Gambling Sleight of Hand" HERE

Postby Bob Farmer » February 27th, 2020, 3:18 pm

Let's hope no one starts a thread on the true identity of, "Steve Forte," which after all is an anagram for possibly the real author, Feet Stover.

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Re: Discuss Steve Forte's Book "Gambling Sleight of Hand" HERE

Postby webbmaster » February 27th, 2020, 3:35 pm

And what is Bob Farmer an anagram of ? Anyway, on to the topic at hand...I was lucky to have been privy to many tapes of Steve Forte's work and was amazed of course...and always thought since then that he must be the best...and he said he was only scratching the surface of what he could show. So, I'm surprised and pleased that he did a book and not a video.

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Re: Discuss Steve Forte's Book "Gambling Sleight of Hand" HERE

Postby Christopher1979 » February 27th, 2020, 3:41 pm

Bob Farmer wrote:Let's hope no one starts a thread on the true identity of, "Steve Forte," which after all is an anagram for possibly the real author, Feet Stover.


I find it funny that I can find "Fear Mr Bob" as your anagram :)

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Re: Discuss Steve Forte's Book "Gambling Sleight of Hand" HERE

Postby Christopher1979 » February 27th, 2020, 3:47 pm

When will it be ok to start talking about Steve's book?... The Erdnase from Steve's perspective makes you rethink everything!

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Re: Discuss Steve Forte's Book "Gambling Sleight of Hand" HERE

Postby Richard Kaufman » February 27th, 2020, 4:04 pm

I think we can open the discussion up on Friday. Any objections?
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Re: Discuss Steve Forte's Book "Gambling Sleight of Hand" HERE

Postby Randy Naviaux » February 27th, 2020, 5:03 pm

This book has been a harsh and humbling experience so far. There were small details that I knew were a little off. A break showing when it shouldn't or the placing of slugs in my riffling stacking procedure breaking up the smooth flow of the riffle itself.

Having Mr. Forte call them out in print feels like having him looking over my shoulder and whispering in my ear, "It could be bettter."

It's awesome but a bit painful.

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Re: Discuss Steve Forte's Book "Gambling Sleight of Hand" HERE

Postby Christopher1979 » February 27th, 2020, 5:48 pm

Randy Naviaux wrote:This book has been a harsh and humbling experience so far. There were small details that I knew were a little off. A break showing when it shouldn't or the placing of slugs in my riffling stacking procedure breaking up the smooth flow of the riffle itself.

Having Mr. Forte call them out in print feels like having him looking over my shoulder and whispering in my ear, "It could be bettter."

It's awesome but a bit painful.


Very well put Randy. I think one of the main things we get from Forte is the breadth and depth of his understanding in his field. As a student of gambling-related subjects whether it be Pseudo related or the "real work" it is plain to see that Forte is at the top of his game. It is very rare to get a look inside this world and although this book of Forte's was not written for the gambler there are many gems between the pages that I am sure will take years or even a lifetime to master.

Looking forward to talking about this in much more detail soon!

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Re: Discuss Steve Forte's Book "Gambling Sleight of Hand" HERE

Postby Jack Burton » February 27th, 2020, 9:50 pm

His thoughts in the beginning on the center deal were a real surprise to me, loving it so far. Glad its finally here ;)

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Re: Discuss Steve Forte's Book "Gambling Sleight of Hand" HERE

Postby JustinM » February 27th, 2020, 10:15 pm

Began reading today..... One tip from Steve changed my whole approach to a simple technique that 99.9% of magicians do!

Still speechless.

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Re: Discuss Steve Forte's Book "Gambling Sleight of Hand" HERE

Postby Richard Kaufman » February 28th, 2020, 1:42 pm

Breaking embargo a day early. Feel free to discuss all aspects of the book.
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Re: Discuss Steve Forte's Book "Gambling Sleight of Hand" HERE

Postby Richard Kaufman » February 28th, 2020, 1:49 pm

In terms of The Expert at the Card Table, it's shocking to learn how much is plagarized, and that the original Erdnase shifts were published earlier elsewhere.
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Re: Discuss Steve Forte's Book "Gambling Sleight of Hand" HERE

Postby Christopher1979 » February 28th, 2020, 4:14 pm

The plagiarism is what got me too! I always knew that Erdnase was not a professional gambler but to have everything laid out on the table as Steve did really made me think about our view of The Expert at the Card Table.

After reading some of Steve's thoughts, I experienced a real "a-ha moment" when the realization hit me that - obviously - most of the sleights taught in EATCT would never fly in a real game. What Steve does very well is to differentiate between gambling moves from a magician's viewpoint vs the "real work".

It is also very interesting how he makes a point of the fact that the coverage of the second deal is "shockingly scant" seeing it is one of the core moves in card cheating. Also, there are many important sleights that he never even discusses which would be important to include in such a book if it indeed was meant for fellow gamblers.

There is a lot to digest and take stock of and I am sure we will all have great fun posting it on this tread!

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Re: Discuss Steve Forte's Book "Gambling Sleight of Hand" HERE

Postby magicam » February 28th, 2020, 10:07 pm

Richard Kaufman wrote:In terms of The Expert at the Card Table, it's shocking to learn how much is plagarized, and that the original Erdnase shifts were published earlier elsewhere.

So Gallaway was Erdnase after all!

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Re: ERDNASE

Postby Richard Kaufman » February 29th, 2020, 9:46 pm

Seeing no activity in both the Erdnase and Steve Forte book threads since they were separated, I have reconsidered and merged them. Let's see some thoughts on Steve's books!
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Re: ERDNASE

Postby Sean Piper » February 29th, 2020, 10:33 pm

So far, he's brutal but honest. This is my favourtie quote:

“If you were attending a class on false deals taught by Erdnase, it couldn’t even be called ‘False Deals 101’. Something like ‘A Few Random Thoughts About A Few Uncommon Deals’ would have been more appropriate. “

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Re: ERDNASE

Postby AJM » March 1st, 2020, 8:53 am

Richard Kaufman wrote:Seeing no activity in both the Erdnase and Steve Forte book threads since they were separated, I have reconsidered and merged them. Let's see some thoughts on Steve's books!


I suspect some will be taking a little time to digest Mr Forte’s views, which I have read with interest.

While I’m not fully au fait with the research undertaken on Erdnase thus far, my initial questions would be: -

- Do Mr Forte’s views make the case for any of the candidates extant more or less compelling?

- Are Dai Vernon’s ‘Revelations’ less revelatory than previously thought?

- Is the grail-like ‘hunt’ for the author’s identity still ‘a thing’?

I’m in no way dismissing any of the research carried out over the years - merely wondering if things have changed following the publication of Mr Forte’s thoughts on the topic.

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Richard Kaufman
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Re: ERDNASE

Postby Richard Kaufman » March 1st, 2020, 11:14 am

I've never really gotten a straight answer from anyone about why there is so little content by Vernon in Revelations. I sat down with Vernon long before it was published and got a lot of information from him about Erdnase that I put into Genii. None of that is in Revelations.
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Re: ERDNASE

Postby Leo Garet » March 1st, 2020, 11:25 am

I wonder if any of this is likely to affect the "Must-Have" reputation of Erdnase.

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Re: ERDNASE

Postby Richard Kaufman » March 1st, 2020, 12:59 pm

It certainly bursts the bubble, however I know some folks don't agree with parts of Steve's writings.
It's hard to give up your false god when you've invested so much time in it.
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Re: ERDNASE

Postby MagicbyAlfred » March 1st, 2020, 1:58 pm

Maybe Erdnase was the Wizard of Oz...

(and I'm not talking about Pearlman)


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