ERDNASE

Discuss general aspects of Genii.
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Re: ERDNASE

Postby Jonathan Townsend » February 12th, 2020, 8:55 pm

Smith recalled meeting a guy claiming to be a former card shark writing an expose, with specific recall of meeting once and in a cold hotel room. Smith mentions a folding card tabletop as about two feet square. Smith claimed to recognize the lettering but not the drawings.
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Bill Mullins
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Re: ERDNASE

Postby Bill Mullins » February 12th, 2020, 11:09 pm

But you ought to concede that it could be German slang.

If it was German slang, then the author of Expert was, as far as we can tell, the first person to put it down in print. The odds of this particular writer, in a book about sleight of hand with cards, deciding to use a term from a foreign language that no one ever had put down in print before, are so small that it doesn't make sense.

If the book was about a kid named Hans who played in the dirt, or a pig rooting for truffles in the Black Forest, it would be conceivable. Not in a book about bottom deals and stacking poker hands.

PavelTheGreat

Re: ERDNASE

Postby PavelTheGreat » February 13th, 2020, 12:35 am

performer wrote:Thank you kindly. First time I have seen the information all gathered together in one place. I am now more convinced than ever that Mr Smith's recollections were correct. Far too specific to be misremembered.


One thing bothers me about the focus on Mr. Smith's recollections, and that is virtually everybody's assumption that the man he met was the author of the book.

If (as I believe) it was a collaborative effort, the man Mr. Smith remembered so vividly might have been a partner.

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Re: ERDNASE

Postby Roger M. » February 13th, 2020, 1:18 am

So you're taking the "we needed the money" literally then?

PavelTheGreat

Re: ERDNASE

Postby PavelTheGreat » February 13th, 2020, 8:14 am

Bill Mullins wrote:
But you ought to concede that it could be German slang.

If it was German slang, then the author of Expert was, as far as we can tell, the first person to put it down in print. The odds of this particular writer, in a book about sleight of hand with cards, deciding to use a term from a foreign language that no one ever had put down in print before, are so small that it doesn't make sense.

If the book was about a kid named Hans who played in the dirt, or a pig rooting for truffles in the Black Forest, it would be conceivable. Not in a book about bottom deals and stacking poker hands.


In this sort of situation, we can talk about "odds" and likelihood, but bottom line is that anything is possible, because we don't know what the author was thinking.

Chris Wasshuber has shown me several instances of "Erdnase" in print prior to 1902. And he tells me that you Bill are aware if this if you read his book.

I happen to believe that his man Gallaway is most likely for many reasons (However, I also believe that Gallaway was not sole contributor to EATCT). He had much more knowledge of German idiom than Sanders or Andrews, had several German acquaintsinces, even married woman who spoke German as I seem to recall. Anyone of these might have called him "Earth Nose" or "Dirt Nose" affectionately.

It is therefore not so unthinkable.

Only if we discount Gallaway, and prefer someone like Sanders, does this become a remote possibility.
Last edited by PavelTheGreat on February 13th, 2020, 8:17 am, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: ERDNASE

Postby performer » February 13th, 2020, 8:16 am

If it was a collaborative effort I think it would be far more likely that the secret would be out by now. The more people involved the more the word gets out.

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Re: ERDNASE

Postby Roger M. » February 13th, 2020, 9:31 am

PavelTheGreat wrote:
Only if we discount Gallaway, and prefer someone like Sanders, does this become a remote possibility.


Well it's definitely a possibility then, as Gallaway has about as much chance of being Erdnase and writing EATCT as Charlie Chaplin does.
Gallaway is not just a weak candidate, arriving at his name requires multiple unbelievablely large leaps of faith, it also requires telling a series of outright lies in order to arrive at, and support his candidacy.

But at least you've clarified where you're coming from with your argument, trying to squeeze that square peg into that round hole, and acting as Chris's sock-puppet here in the forum.

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Re: ERDNASE

Postby Paco Nagata » February 13th, 2020, 9:33 am

So, according to the "backward spelling theory" the book IS NOT an anonymous book; the writer wrote his name!
And "S. W. Erdnase" IS NOT a pseudonym since it is not a name, but just a game; a joke. As if the author were fooling around with the authorship of the book.
Maybe the author wrote it as a joke, just to get some money?
Hence, we all know the name of the author of "The Expert at the Card Table" because he wrote it.
So, the next question would be:
Which funny "Andrews" wrote it?
Or...
Who used the name "Andrews" as a TRUE pseudonym but backwards to hide things more, and maybe knowing that several "Andrews" were related with cardshark and gambling at that time?
Writting a book with your name backwads is not to hide your identity. Maybe to be funny, but not to hide your identity.
Or, maybe the backward name is not the real name as well!
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Re: ERDNASE

Postby PavelTheGreat » February 13th, 2020, 9:35 am

performer wrote:If it was a collaborative effort I think it would be far more likely that the secret would be out by now. The more people involved the more the word gets out.


Here is what I think: Gallaway works for printer, but also likes gambling and/or magic. He has ambition to write book himself. Writes first part of EATCT but is too short. Perhaps he knows magician in Chicago (what is name of Zig Zagger's candidate?) and the second part (the stage magic) is written by the other guy.

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Re: ERDNASE

Postby PavelTheGreat » February 13th, 2020, 10:21 am

Roger M. wrote:
PavelTheGreat wrote:
Only if we discount Gallaway, and prefer someone like Sanders, does this become a remote possibility.


Well it's definitely a possibility then, as Gallaway has about as much chance of being Erdnase and writing EATCT as Charlie Chaplin does.
Gallaway is not just a weak candidate, arriving at his name requires multiple unbelievablely large leaps of faith, it also requires telling a series of outright lies in order to arrive at, and support his candidacy.

But at least you've clarified where you're coming from with your argument, trying to squeeze that square peg into that round hole, and acting as Chris's sock-puppet here in the forum.


You are a fascinating fellow Roger. You say much, and imply a great deal, but give no support for your argument. Will you please tell me what is this "series of lies" that is told by believers in Gallaway?

I believe this:

1) Gallaway worked for printer that printed book.

2) Gallaway had enormous experience with German language (and numerous Germanic acquaintances as well as spouse)

3) "Erdnase" is demonstrably a German word (and prior to 1902).

4) Meaning of word is uncertain, but could very well be nick-name for printer with ink-stain on nose.

5) Though it is tenuous possibility that Gallaway had extensive knowledge of magic (and stage performance like that in back of book), he could have known this magician fellow that Zig Zagger has proposed--the guy who also distributed books for the very printer/publisher that printed the book.

These are the main reasons for my belief. Where are the lies?

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Re: ERDNASE

Postby Bill Mullins » February 13th, 2020, 11:37 am

PavelTheGreat wrote: (what is name of Zig Zagger's candidate?)


Are you confusing Zig Zagger with Zenner?

PavelTheGreat

Re: ERDNASE

Postby PavelTheGreat » February 13th, 2020, 11:43 am

:ugeek:
Bill Mullins wrote:
PavelTheGreat wrote: (what is name of Zig Zagger's candidate?)


Are you confusing Zig Zagger with Zenner?


Yes, I may have got the wrong name. Zenner I think is the one who proposed the magician from Chicago.

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Re: ERDNASE

Postby Jonathan Townsend » February 13th, 2020, 12:03 pm

performer wrote:If it was a collaborative effort I think it would be far more likely that the secret would be out by now.
To the printers it was just another book that didn't sell too well. They had other concerns. Not so long after...
https://books.google.com/books?id=ng8hA ... go&f=false

Anyway - the book lives on as mythic tome
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Re: ERDNASE

Postby Roger M. » February 13th, 2020, 12:36 pm

PavelTheGreat wrote:
Roger M. wrote:
PavelTheGreat wrote:4) Meaning of word is uncertain, but could very well be nick-name for printer with ink-stain on nose.


There are no words.

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Re: ERDNASE

Postby Bill Mullins » February 13th, 2020, 12:40 pm

PavelTheGreat wrote:Chris Wasshuber has shown me several instances of "Erdnase" in print prior to 1902. And he tells me that you Bill are aware if this if you read his book.


Chris mentions one use of "erdnase" (the Ainu-Japanese dictionary I've mentioned), and two of "erdnasen", in which the term seems to mean "foothills". In addition to those, I've also located a 1756 document in which "erdnasen" seems to mean either "foothills" or "sod" (my German is weak, and I'm also struggling with the old-style fraktur font).

So, at best, erdnase/erdnasen was very uncommon; it is unlikely that a native American English speaker would have run across it; to the extent it was a real word in 1902, there's nothing about a book on card cheating/magic or its author that would suggest the pseudonym was used in reference to it; and to suggest that the pseudonym was a nickname meaning something like "dirty nose" is a leap of faith unsupported by anything. You might as well say that the author was Robert Heller -- there's just as much evidence for that.

And most importantly, if you say that Erdnase was a nickname applied to the author, so what? Saying so is useless in finding anything about the author, or in validating a candidate. No matter who your candidate is, you can say "his childhood nickname could have been dirty-nose", and there is no way to confirm or deny it. Since you can apply it to any possible candidate, it doesn't tend to support one candidate over another. It would be as if I had a candidate, and said that "Exclusive Coterie" is in the book because when the author was a teenager, a friend of his father could have showed him an ace assembly with 4 queens.

I happen to believe that his man Gallaway is most likely for many reasons . . . Anyone of these might have called him "Earth Nose" or "Dirt Nose" affectionately..


And anyone might have called W. E. Sanders, or E. S. Andrews, or Zenner's candidate, or R. F. Foster, or Roterberg, etc., etc. by that name as well.

If you can demonstrate that a candidate was called "Erdnase" or "Dirty nose", you have something useful. Saying that a candidate could have been called that is just another way of saying you don't have a good explanation for why the candidate used the pseudonym.

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Re: ERDNASE

Postby Denis Behr » February 13th, 2020, 12:51 pm

While I said that I believe that every German native speaker will make the connection to "Earthnose", when I first came across the book in the 90s I found it a funny coincidence that there is some German meaning in the surname. I have never seen or heard the word used in any other context. Could it be used as a nickname for a child or a dog or something else? I guess so, but I've not come across it.

PavelTheGreat

Re: ERDNASE

Postby PavelTheGreat » February 13th, 2020, 1:08 pm

:(
Roger M. wrote:
PavelTheGreat wrote:
Roger M. wrote:


There are no words.


So your statement above, about "series of lies" is baseless.

Let me tell you something. I am not a stooge for Chris Wasshuber. I have my own hypothesis that differs from his in a number of ways.

The fact that you accuse me of being his spokesperson only shows how intolerant you are of the idea of Gallaway.

Knowing something of human psychology, I would infer that your spiteful response to this alternate theory is based on the frustration of seeing your own elaborate narrative over-shadowed by simpler and more reasonable one.

I am not pounding square peg in round hole, I am employing Law of Parsimony. It is less imaginative to think that persons that were directly involved with the printing, publishing and distributing of the book were responsible for its content than a mining engineer (who may have visited Chicago briefly). Of all the candidates (except Zenner's), nobody has much credibility as a magician. It is a stretch (quite literally) to propose a candidate that lived far away just because his name can spell "Erdnase".

I don't know which is your candidate (Sanders? Andrews?) but from what I have read, none of the others have a better connection with the book than Gallaway.
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Re: ERDNASE

Postby Roger M. » February 13th, 2020, 1:09 pm

PavelTheGreat wrote:1) Gallaway worked for printer that printed book.

So did a bunch of other people. Many, indeed most people working for a printer are not authors. The suggestion that Gallaway is an author because he worked for the printer is completely fabricated. Demonstrate Gallaway was the owner of the original plates, or offer up anything at all to indicate a solid connection and you might have something, but currently this is irrelevant, and the intimate connection being suggested between Gallaway and EATCT is completely fabricated.


2) Gallaway had enormous experience with German language (and numerous Germanic acquaintances as well as spouse)
Beyond simply saying out loud that there is a relationship between the German language and the book, there is no evidence that the author had anything to do with the German language. This is irrelevant.


3) "Erdnase" is demonstrably a German word (and prior to 1902).
Same response as point #2 above, and equally as irrelevant


4) Meaning of word is uncertain, but could very well be nick-name for printer with ink-stain on nose.
This is simply ridiculous, and typical of all the Gallaway "evidence" that is repeatedly trotted out as being factual. I can't even read this with a straight face - it's ripe with comedy overtones.


5) Though it is tenuous possibility that Gallaway had extensive knowledge of magic (and stage performance like that in back of book), he could have known this magician fellow that Zig Zagger has proposed--the guy who also distributed books for the very printer/publisher that printed the book.
This demonstrates a statement from somebody who is in need of further study, and a deeper understanding of EATCT. Anybody on earth who created or documented the sleights that Erdnase did in EATCT would also have expansive knowledge of card magic. It is simply not believable that one could be as well versed with card sleights as Erdnase was and simultaneously know nothing at all about card magic. Considering the book is written in a singular voice, and in the absence of any actual evidence indicating a second author, yours (and Chris's) positing to date leaves Erdnase as the sole author of EATCT, and most definitely not Gallaway.

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Re: ERDNASE

Postby Roger M. » February 13th, 2020, 1:16 pm

PavelTheGreat wrote:Knowing something of human psychology, I would infer that your spiteful response to this alternate theory is based on the frustration of seeing your own elaborate narrative over-shadowed by simpler and more reasonable one.

You can read back through my posts in this thread Pavel, and you'd quickly discover that I don't have "a narative" to defend.

What I abhor is ridiculously childish research, outright lies, and leaps of faith that are simply impossible to take.
Gallaway is a ridiculous candidate, it's no more complicated than that - I have no agenda.

Allow me to quickly point out that my comments are no different than your comments. You are free to trumpet Gallaway, and I am equally free to point out how ridiculous he is as a candidate for Erdnase.
Carry on.

PavelTheGreat

Re: ERDNASE

Postby PavelTheGreat » February 13th, 2020, 1:42 pm

Bill Mullins wrote:
PavelTheGreat wrote:Chris Wasshuber has shown me several instances of "Erdnase" in print prior to 1902. And he tells me that you Bill are aware if this if you read his book.


Chris mentions one use of "erdnase" (the Ainu-Japanese dictionary I've mentioned), and two of "erdnasen", in which the term seems to mean "foothills". In addition to those, I've also located a 1756 document in which "erdnasen" seems to mean either "foothills" or "sod" (my German is weak, and I'm also struggling with the old-style fraktur font).

So, at best, erdnase/erdnasen was very uncommon; it is unlikely that a native American English speaker would have run across it; to the extent it was a real word in 1902, there's nothing about a book on card cheating/magic or its author that would suggest the pseudonym was used in reference to it; and to suggest that the pseudonym was a nickname meaning something like "dirty nose" is a leap of faith unsupported by anything. You might as well say that the author was Robert Heller -- there's just as much evidence for that.

And most importantly, if you say that Erdnase was a nickname applied to the author, so what? Saying so is useless in finding anything about the author, or in validating a candidate. No matter who your candidate is, you can say "his childhood nickname could have been dirty-nose", and there is no way to confirm or deny it. Since you can apply it to any possible candidate, it doesn't tend to support one candidate over another. It would be as if I had a candidate, and said that "Exclusive Coterie" is in the book because when the author was a teenager, a friend of his father could have showed him an ace assembly with 4 queens.

I happen to believe that his man Gallaway is most likely for many reasons . . . Anyone of these might have called him "Earth Nose" or "Dirt Nose" affectionately..


And anyone might have called W. E. Sanders, or E. S. Andrews, or Zenner's candidate, or R. F. Foster, or Roterberg, etc., etc. by that name as well.

If you can demonstrate that a candidate was called "Erdnase" or "Dirty nose", you have something useful. Saying that a candidate could have been called that is just another way of saying you don't have a good explanation for why the candidate used the pseudonym.


You are being subjective, almost as much as Roger.

My point is clear, that it is far more likely that Gallaway would be given a German nick-name, because we know that he had German acquaintances, and even a wife. Other than Sanders German professor, who might have given him this?

And no, it is not unlikely for "Erdnase" to mean "dirt-nose". All that is necessary is to understand that "earth" is same thing as "dirt". Let us not think that two English words that mean same thing are different.

As I mentioned earlier, I have done printing and can assure everyone present that it is VERY COMMON for printer to be laughed at for smutty nose. Ink is hard to wash off so all acquaintances will see it (even after work) and jokingly suggest that you look "dirty".

Gallaway had been in the newspaper business--German language newspaper. Thus he had relationship with many German-Americans, and presumably (inevitably) got ink on his hands and rubbed his nose frequently (the ink makes your nose itch so you keep rubbing it all day).

He would have been seen almost daily with a "dirty" nose by many German speaking people. Please do not tell me that this is hard to believe. Maybe you don't wish to believe, but I can assure you it is a sensible hypothesis.

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Re: ERDNASE

Postby Bill Mullins » February 13th, 2020, 2:10 pm

If it is so sensible, it should be easy to find an example of a German printer who was called "Erdnase" because of his dirty nose. There are many German-language newspapers in America which have been digitized and are online; there is an extensive literature of the printing trade on Google Books which has been discussed in the forum and is easily accessible, and there are numerous people with a German background in those journals.

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Re: ERDNASE

Postby Brad Jeffers » February 13th, 2020, 3:49 pm

PavelTheGreat wrote:He would have been seen almost daily with a "dirty" nose by many German speaking people.
But wouldn't they then use a nickname like Schumtzige Nase (dirty nose), or Shmutznase (dirt nose), or even Tintinnase (ink nose)?
All that is necessary is to understand that "earth" is same thing as "dirt".
Earth and dirt may be the same thing, but I never saw a movie were James Cagney called anyone "You earthy rat!".

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Re: ERDNASE

Postby performer » February 13th, 2020, 3:53 pm

Roger M. wrote:
PavelTheGreat wrote:
Roger M. wrote:


There are no words.


I beg to differ. There seems to be rather a LOT of words on this thread!

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Re: ERDNASE

Postby Zig Zagger » February 13th, 2020, 4:18 pm

Brad Jeffers wrote:
PavelTheGreat wrote:He would have been seen almost daily with a "dirty" nose by many German speaking people.
But wouldn't they then use a nickname like Schumtzige Nase (dirty nose), or Shmutznase (dirt nose), or even Tintinnase (ink nose)?
All that is necessary is to understand that "earth" is same thing as "dirt".
Earth and dirt may be the same thing, but I never saw a movie were James Cagney called anyone "You earthy rat!".

I'm afraid you're on a wrong track here, Pavel.

In German, "Erde" translates as "(planet) earth" and as "top soil" or "mold", but it's not a synonym for "dirt". (That would indeed be "Schmutz" or "Dreck".) At least not in today's German. I'm not sure about 100 years ago, but it doesn't seem very likely to me. So it is a bit stretched for me to imagine a printer with an ink-blotted face being called "earth nose" instead of mudlark, litterbug or "ink-face" or something in German, neither as an exclamation nor as a nickname.
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Re: ERDNASE

Postby Zig Zagger » February 13th, 2020, 4:22 pm

Roger M. wrote:So you're taking the "we needed the money" literally then?

So you're taking M.D. Smith's memories literally then? ;)
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Re: ERDNASE

Postby Zig Zagger » February 13th, 2020, 4:44 pm

PavelTheGreat wrote::ugeek:
Bill Mullins wrote:
PavelTheGreat wrote: (what is name of Zig Zagger's candidate?)


Are you confusing Zig Zagger with Zenner?


Yes, I may have got the wrong name. Zenner I think is the one who proposed the magician from Chicago.

Thank you for pointing that out! It's important because I don't have a candidate to vouch for. That's why I cannot be accused of deliberately advocating special "facts" or rejecting others just for the purpose of fitting. I'm in it for the riddle and for the fun process of the investigation. That's why I'm an advocate of logical reasoning, of not excluding options prematurely, of not deducing prematurely, of questioning each and every "evidence" thoroughly, of not twisting semi-truths or hearsay into indisputable facts, etc. Sherlock Holmes is a wonderful blueprint for this, just remember the following and many other famous quotes: "There is nothing more deceptive than an obvious fact."

I'm as much in awe about the amount of original research and the deep, clever thinking displayed by some Erdnasians here over the years as I'm annoyed by the silly, repetitive patter of many bystanders who have never contributed a single original thought at all.

Also, I'm more than mildly interested in the topic, but I haven't read each and every account or post on Erdnase. I may have missed important pieces, but it is my educated (?) guess or vibe that there may be more to be found in the direction of August Roterberg and James William Elliott.
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Re: ERDNASE

Postby Zig Zagger » February 13th, 2020, 4:52 pm

performer wrote:Thank you kindly. First time I have seen the information all gathered together in one place. I am now more convinced than ever that Mr Smith's recollections were correct. Far too specific to be misremembered.

I'd say that this is a tempting yet very dangerous conclusion, performer. It's exactly the small, specific details that may be added or altered over time as we unconsciously rewrite parts of our "memories."

We actually find both strategies being consciously employed in magic: trying to make our spectator "forget" that our paw went south before the final load, or trying to make him misremember (!) that he himself shuffled the deck (instead of just cutting or else)!
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Re: ERDNASE

Postby Zig Zagger » February 13th, 2020, 4:56 pm

Bill Mullins wrote:I've also located a 1756 document in which "erdnasen" seems to mean either "foothills" or "sod" (my German is weak, and I'm also struggling with the old-style fraktur font).

Bill, if you want to send me a link or screenshot at zzzauber [at] arcor [dot] de, I'd be happy to try to help with the translation in context!
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Re: ERDNASE

Postby Roger M. » February 13th, 2020, 5:03 pm

Zig Zagger wrote:
Roger M. wrote:So you're taking the "we needed the money" literally then?

So you're taking M.D. Smith's memories literally then? ;)

I do see your "wink" .. but I'll just state not "literally" so much as I am considering his memories "priority evidence" - that is to say evidence which trumps all random theories lacking any facts or evidence to back them up.

Actual evidence doesn't require a massive leap of faith, a mis-truth stated as fact, or some sort of oblique jump through a hoop in order to supoprt any given candidate as being Erdnase - rather it's just straight forward evidence.
A perfect example of such high quality evidence would be Smith's recalling his memories of Erdnase in response to Gardner's questions. Two men, both highly intelligent, one an artist, the other a mathematician ... having a detailed conversation about a very specific man that Smith met in a Chicago hotel room, a man who pulled out a small board on which to place his playing cards, and who then proceeded to execute the most amazing sleight of hand which Smith then rendered into line drawings for EATCT (YMMV depending on how you interpret "from life").

You know - that kind of really, really good evidence ... at least as opposed to the kind of evidence which repeatedly posits that all of this revolves around an apparent German printer walking around with ink on his nose - to the great joy of his fellow workers, friends and family, all of whom can't wait to nickname him "dirt-nose" ... but in German, and with a word that doesn't actually exist in the vernacular.

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Re: ERDNASE

Postby PavelTheGreat » February 13th, 2020, 5:50 pm

Zig Zagger wrote:
Brad Jeffers wrote:
PavelTheGreat wrote:He would have been seen almost daily with a "dirty" nose by many German speaking people.
But wouldn't they then use a nickname like Schumtzige Nase (dirty nose), or Shmutznase (dirt nose), or even Tintinnase (ink nose)?
All that is necessary is to understand that "earth" is same thing as "dirt".
Earth and dirt may be the same thing, but I never saw a movie were James Cagney called anyone "You earthy rat!".

I'm afraid you're on a wrong track here, Pavel.

In German, "Erde" translates as "(planet) earth" and as "top soil" or "mold", but it's not a synonym for "dirt". (That would indeed be "Schmutz" or "Dreck".) At least not in today's German. I'm not sure about 100 years ago, but it doesn't seem very likely to me. So it is a bit stretched for me to imagine a printer with an ink-blotted face being called "earth nose" instead of mudlark, litterbug or "ink-face" or something in German, neither as an exclamation nor as a nickname.


Okay, I need to clarify something. When I say that folks will tease a printer for looking "dirty", I am not suggesting that they are seriously believing he has dirt on his nose. They know it is ink, but they pretend it is dirt in order to make joke.

Thus they would not call him *ink nose" etc., because this would be insult. If it were insult, the author would not use it to describe himself. Is silly joke, not accurate description.

Printer walks into room with friends partying. Some wise guy looks up and sees his pal with the black smudge on his nose. He grins and says, "Hey, Dirt-Nose! How is it going?"

Annoyed printer explains (as always) to the crowd that is INK NOT DIRT. This is source of amusement for joker, to see printer trying to "save face".

In retrospect, this sort of taunting might seem funny even to the subject.

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Re: ERDNASE

Postby Zig Zagger » February 13th, 2020, 6:02 pm

I got that. INK IS NOT DIRT. But Erd- does not translate as DIRT either. At least not in present times.
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Re: ERDNASE

Postby Jonathan Townsend » February 13th, 2020, 6:35 pm

? erd as in 'erd (herd or heard) but not "herr n osey"? A mondegreen?
Agreed that E. S. Andrews could be a name reversed.
But about the lettering and not the pictures... tall or short... the table but not the hands in proportion to the cards... mysteries.
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Re: ERDNASE

Postby Jonathan Townsend » February 13th, 2020, 6:46 pm

Zig Zagger wrote:In German, "Erde" translates as "(planet) earth" and as "top soil" or "mold", but it's not a synonym for "dirt". (That would indeed be "Schmutz" or "Dreck".) At least not in today's German. I'm not sure about 100 years ago, but it doesn't seem very likely to me.
There's plenty of literature in German from the last few hundred years to look at if you'd like to argue from evidence.
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Re: ERDNASE

Postby PavelTheGreat » February 13th, 2020, 6:47 pm

Zig Zagger wrote:I got that. INK IS NOT DIRT. But Erd- does not translate as DIRT either. At least not in present times.



I do not know how "erde" was commonly used in late 19th century, but I do know (as before mentioned) that "earth" at that time was most often used in reference to soil or ground, much less than planet. In literature, I see "earth" in the sense of loose dirt, as in "sprinkling a handful of earth upon the coffin".

And let us not forget the phrase "earthy complexion" which no doubt dates to this period.

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Re: ERDNASE

Postby Jonathan Townsend » February 13th, 2020, 7:35 pm

PavelTheGreat wrote:And let us not forget the phrase "earthy complexion" which no doubt dates to this period.
Also England 1765. Please stop.
Last edited by Jonathan Townsend on February 13th, 2020, 7:36 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: ERDNASE

Postby PavelTheGreat » February 13th, 2020, 7:36 pm

Another point about use of words at turn of century. Many words were considered rude in society. It is doubtful that an author such as "Erdnase", who wrote like a proper gentleman, would prefer "dirt" to "earth". The same standards of decency would have been applied to both English and German speech, especially if we are talking about German-Americans living in the same place.

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Re: ERDNASE

Postby PavelTheGreat » February 13th, 2020, 7:51 pm

Jonathan Townsend wrote:
PavelTheGreat wrote:And let us not forget the phrase "earthy complexion" which no doubt dates to this period.
Also England 1765. Please stop.


May I ask what is your point? This quote is saying that people have dirty faces (earthy complexion) because of washing with "foetid waters". This supports my claim. Is this not how you interpret? Or are you saying is from earlier period? I might have said that the phrase flourished at turn of century and perhaps long before, but I fail to see the relevance of this observation.

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Re: ERDNASE

Postby Jonathan Townsend » February 13th, 2020, 8:48 pm

Unfortunately "earthy complexion" has been used to describe colors including yellow and darker hues. In fiction it might work to have a character disguised by colored makeup on his nose, though that's not yet established as relevant or useful in this search for an author.
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Re: ERDNASE

Postby PavelTheGreat » February 13th, 2020, 9:09 pm

Jonathan Townsend wrote:Unfortunately "earthy complexion" has been used to describe colors including yellow and darker hues. In fiction it might work to have a character disguised by colored makeup on his nose, though that's not yet established as relevant or useful in this search for an author.


Earthy complexion may be described as colour, but underlying meaning is "dirty" or looking dirty. In other words, euphemism for dirty, used by polite people.

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Re: ERDNASE

Postby Bill Mullins » February 13th, 2020, 10:21 pm

Zig Zagger wrote: I'm in it for the riddle and for the fun process of the investigation.


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