ERDNASE

Discuss general aspects of Genii.
Bob Coyne
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Re: ERDNASE

Postby Bob Coyne » April 20th, 2018, 10:01 pm

lybrary wrote:
Bob Coyne wrote:I only said that it was possible (and i purposely put italics around it to make it obvious). I did not say or imply it was the case (or even likely).
Pretty much anything is possible. Aliens could land tomorrow. What's the point?

Are you being this dense on purpose? The point is that you don't actually know exactly how tall Sanders was. All we have are three different numbers, two of which were self-reported and subject to exaggeration. And even the rowing team number is not something we know how it was derived. If one is interested in what's true, a good way to start is to admit the various uncertainties and then try to determine what is most likely in that context. Doesn't fit your blunderbuss style I guess.

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Re: ERDNASE

Postby lybrary » April 20th, 2018, 10:52 pm

Bob Coyne wrote:Are you being this dense on purpose? The point is that you don't actually know exactly how tall Sanders was. All we have are three different numbers, two of which were self-reported and subject to exaggeration. And even the rowing team number is not something we know how it was derived. If one is interested in what's true, a good way to start is to admit the various uncertainties and then try to determine what is most likely in that context. Doesn't fit your blunderbuss style I guess.
We know exactly how tall Sanders was. How likely is a falsification on a passport application? That is a government document. Just because he was so vain? Give me a break.

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lybrary wrote:This not being able to hang on to the money he made could very well be due to gambling at Faro.
A fantasy you pulled out of your behind.
Many people who played Faro lost their shirt. It is not a mere academic possibility.
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Re: ERDNASE

Postby Leonard Hevia » April 20th, 2018, 11:34 pm

lybrary wrote:Many people who played Faro lost their shirt. It is not a mere academic possibility.


Absolutely. Many people at the turn of the century played the pasteboards and lost their money gambling. That Gallaway was possibly among them is your creation. But I suppose when you have nothing to put on the table that at least hints of Gallaway gambling his money away at card games, it is comprehensible that you would tweak your narrative.

Keep looking, keep looking. You might find an account of Gallaway entering a gambling joint somewhere. In the meantime, your fictional narrative will have to suffice for your followers in the Cult of Gallaway.

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Re: ERDNASE

Postby Bob Coyne » April 20th, 2018, 11:49 pm

lybrary wrote:
Bob Coyne wrote:Are you being this dense on purpose? The point is that you don't actually know exactly how tall Sanders was. All we have are three different numbers, two of which were self-reported and subject to exaggeration. And even the rowing team number is not something we know how it was derived. If one is interested in what's true, a good way to start is to admit the various uncertainties and then try to determine what is most likely in that context. Doesn't fit your blunderbuss style I guess.
We know exactly how tall Sanders was. How likely is a falsification on a passport application? That is a government document. Just because he was so vain? Give me a break.

How do you know? I reposted a study showing that men exaggerate their height by an inch. This as was after you falsely accused me of making it up. Here's another article that discusses how people lie about their heights on drivers licenses. This stuff happens all the time. You really understand very little about human psychology if you can't see that.

The bottom line is that we just don't know his exact height, we just know a likely range.

https://www.menshealth.com/trending-new ... ut-height/
Last edited by Bob Coyne on April 20th, 2018, 11:51 pm, edited 1 time in total.

Brad Henderson
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Re: ERDNASE

Postby Brad Henderson » April 20th, 2018, 11:49 pm

lybrary wrote:
Brad Henderson wrote:maybe he bought it for a gift and never had the chance to deliver it?
Yeah, and before he presents the gift he glues his own bookplate into the book, because that is what one does when one gifts a book. You can't make this up. It must require real effort to construct that incoherent an argument.


can you read?

i said he never gave the book to the person. you see that, right? it’s there. you even quoted it.

so, after never giving it to them he eventually sticks his book plate into it as he’s going through the stack of books which don’t have them.

you really have no interest in an honest discussion, do you?

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Re: ERDNASE

Postby Brad Henderson » April 20th, 2018, 11:51 pm

lybrary wrote:
Bob Coyne wrote:I only said that it was possible (and i purposely put italics around it to make it obvious). I did not say or imply it was the case (or even likely).
Pretty much anything is possible. Aliens could land tomorrow. What's the point?


wait, is chris condemning someone for building an argument based on what is ‘possible?’

can someone send an ambulance, i might need to be resuscitated from laughing so hard

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Re: ERDNASE

Postby Bill Mullins » April 21st, 2018, 2:34 am

lybrary wrote:
Bill Mullins wrote:If Brad calls me a dick, I'll call him a potty mouth. I am fair.
I never called you a dick, but if you felt being addressed then that is entirely your problem.


No, you never did. But Brad called you one, thus the parallel construction. Read for comprehension, Chris.

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Re: ERDNASE

Postby performer » April 21st, 2018, 7:36 am

Bloody hell! All this fighting about who is the author of a book written about a hundred years ago! A war over trivialities. I swear magicians are completely bonkers !

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Re: ERDNASE

Postby lybrary » April 21st, 2018, 8:26 am

Bob Coyne wrote:Here's another article that discusses how people lie about their heights on drivers licenses. This stuff happens all the time. You really understand very little about human psychology if you can't see that. https://www.menshealth.com/trending-new ... ut-height/
If Bill Mullins would be fair, which he isn't, he would have immediately pointed out a couple of things. First, we are talking about the norms and attitudes of a hundred years ago, not today. These most likely changed. Second, a passport application is a much more serious document than a driver license. The US passport around 1918 not only listed age and height, but also a description of forehead, eyes, and nose. It was a document that tried to accurately describe and identify a person. Falsifying data for it is a crime. ( From the passport application: Any false or misleading statement with respect to this application and any supporting document, ... may result in the refusal to issue a passport, ... and may be grounds for criminal prosecution.) Third, why would Sanders specify 8 1/2" on his application? Why not 9" if he wanted to make himself taller? It is obvious that he wanted to be precise and thus the 1/2". Fourth, a person with a clipboard is not a study. Fifth, the author of your article says he is 5-5 and he put 5-7 on his driver license. Obviously he wrote this article to find an excuse for his own lie so that he can feel better about it. That is not a credible person to write about this topic.
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Re: ERDNASE

Postby Jack Shalom » April 21st, 2018, 8:40 am

Perhaps he was exactly one smoot tall:

https://www.ahdictionary.com/word/searc ... ubmit.y=23

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Re: ERDNASE

Postby lybrary » April 21st, 2018, 9:14 am

Jack Shalom wrote:Perhaps he was exactly one smoot tall:

https://www.ahdictionary.com/word/searc ... ubmit.y=23
Sanders was clearly one smoot and one ear tall.
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Re: ERDNASE

Postby Leonard Hevia » April 21st, 2018, 10:01 am

lybrary wrote:First, we are talking about the norms and attitudes of a hundred years ago, not today. These most likely changed. Second, a passport application is a much more serious document than a driver license. The US passport around 1918 not only listed age and height, but also a description of forehead, eyes, and nose. It was a document that tried to accurately describe and identify a person. Falsifying data for it is a crime. ( From the passport application: Any false or misleading statement with respect to this application and any supporting document, ... may result in the refusal to issue a passport, ... and may be grounds for criminal prosecution.) Third, why would Sanders specify 8 1/2" on his application? Why not 9" if he wanted to make himself taller? It is obvious that he wanted to be precise and thus the 1/2".


So Sanders put 8 1/2" as his height. That would have made him 4 and a half inches shorter than Smith. Smith would have had to look down at him. Smaller and slender since Sanders was a fairly slim guy.

As for passport applications, Houdini, who was 5"5, lied on his 1919 application and added an inch to his height. So back in 1919, men were exaggerating their height:

https://blogs.ancestry.com/cm/houdinis- ... red-flags/

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Re: ERDNASE

Postby Bob Coyne » April 21st, 2018, 10:01 am

lybrary wrote:
Bob Coyne wrote:Here's another article that discusses how people lie about their heights on drivers licenses. This stuff happens all the time. You really understand very little about human psychology if you can't see that. https://www.menshealth.com/trending-new ... ut-height/
If Bill Mullins would be fair, which he isn't, he would have immediately pointed out a couple of things. First, we are talking about the norms and attitudes of a hundred years ago, not today. These most likely changed. Second, a passport application is a much more serious document than a driver license. The US passport around 1918 not only listed age and height, but also a description of forehead, eyes, and nose. It was a document that tried to accurately describe and identify a person. Falsifying data for it is a crime. ( From the passport application: Any false or misleading statement with respect to this application and any supporting document, ... may result in the refusal to issue a passport, ... and may be grounds for criminal prosecution.) Third, why would Sanders specify 8 1/2" on his application? Why not 9" if he wanted to make himself taller? It is obvious that he wanted to be precise and thus the 1/2". Fourth, a person with a clipboard is not a study. Fifth, the author of your article says he is 5-5 and he put 5-7 on his driver license. Obviously he wrote this article to find an excuse for his own lie so that he can feel better about it. That is not a credible person to write about this topic.


So many errors packed into your paragraph above.
1) If human nature leads men now to exaggerate their heights, then it's very likely they did so 100 years ago also. It's human nature. Do you not understand the reasons why people do that? Do you actually think (without evidence) that's different now?
2) I don't have to prove that's the case, just show that there's good reason to believe it's a factor that must be taken into account. This started when you claimed with certitude that Sanders was 5'9.
3) Shifting goalposts: You said that people don't lie on government documents and I gave you a simple counterexample. Now it's only passports. Note that it's also a crime on drivers license applications. (e.g. Massachusetts General Laws Chapter 90 Section 24 makes it a crime to make a false statement in your application for your learner's permit or driver's license. )
4) You ask why Sanders would exaggerate on his passport to 5'8 1/2 and not say 5'9. Perhaps the same reason he wouldn't say 5'10 or taller -- that it would be less plausible. You can only stretch the truth so far. Something you should learn! ;-)
5) You give an example that old passports ask about facial features. That's obviously because they didn't have photos back then. Note that drivers licenses today ask about eye and hair color (probably because those are less evident from a photo). Neither stops people from exaggerating their heights. Note also, that some states ask about weights on drivers license. People will tend to understate that for similar reasons.
6) The fact that the guy writing the article lied about his own height just shows how he and the editor and the readers all recognize how common the phenomenon is. Not to mention the previous study which established the same thing.

And even if you want to ignore and deny that as possible factor and take the passport as literal truth, then the 5'8 1/2 on the passport is different than the 5'9 you claim was his exact height. At least be consistent with your own claims.

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Re: ERDNASE

Postby Leonard Hevia » April 21st, 2018, 10:08 am

More wonderful Erdnasium from the great David Saltman's blog:

http://www.houdinifile.com/2018/04/the- ... dnase.html

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Re: ERDNASE

Postby Bob Coyne » April 21st, 2018, 10:14 am

Leonard Hevia wrote:As for passport applications, Houdini, who was 5"5, lied on his 1919 application and added an inch to his height. So back in 1919, men were exaggerating their height:

https://blogs.ancestry.com/cm/houdinis- ... red-flags/

Nice find Leonard!

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Re: ERDNASE

Postby Brad Henderson » April 21st, 2018, 10:31 am

is chris asking why someone who made his living lying and cheating others would lie about identifying characteristics on a document? or is he suggesting that a known liar and cheat would never lie on a document.

we are dealing with someone whose life is built on lies.

lying about ones height is trivial to someone who makes their living by stealing.

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Re: ERDNASE

Postby lybrary » April 21st, 2018, 10:34 am

Bob Coyne wrote:And even if you want to ignore and deny that as possible factor and take the passport as literal truth, then the 5'8 1/2 on the passport is different than the 5'9 you claim was his exact height. At least be consistent with your own claims.
5'8 1/2" was his height around 50 years of age. At that age you start to shrink. When he was ~40 he was 5'9". Perfectly consistent. It is also consistent with his 5'8" when he was ~20 years old. Many men still grow a bit at that age. All the data points we have of Sanders are consistent with each other. Thus Sanders was 5'9" when he met Smith.
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Re: ERDNASE

Postby lybrary » April 21st, 2018, 10:36 am

Brad Henderson wrote:we are dealing with someone whose life is built on lies.
We are talking about Sanders. It doesn't look like Sanders life was built on lies.
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Re: ERDNASE

Postby lybrary » April 21st, 2018, 10:46 am

Leonard Hevia wrote:More wonderful Erdnasium from the great David Saltman's blog:

http://www.houdinifile.com/2018/04/the- ... dnase.html
Note to Bill Mullins: David Saltman also refers to TMWWE as a book written by Gardner:
It was written by the late, great Martin Gardner, who did some serious detective work trying to nail down Erdnase's true identity.
Doesn't seem to be an egregious error to refer to Gardner as the author. Keep in mind that David Saltman is knowledgeable in the world of magic. Dr. Olsson is not. It was simply an oversight/abbreviation which does nothing to diminish the work he did. You are simply an unfair cheap shot taker.
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Re: ERDNASE

Postby Bob Coyne » April 21st, 2018, 10:55 am

lybrary wrote:
Bob Coyne wrote:And even if you want to ignore and deny that as possible factor and take the passport as literal truth, then the 5'8 1/2 on the passport is different than the 5'9 you claim was his exact height. At least be consistent with your own claims.
5'8 1/2" was his height around 50 years of age. At that age you start to shrink. When he was ~40 he was 5'9". Perfectly consistent. It is also consistent with his 5'8" when he was ~20 years old. Many men still grow a bit at that age. All the data points we have of Sanders are consistent with each other. Thus Sanders was 5'9" when he met Smith.

Ok, fine. I guess you are consistent with your narrative.

Of course none of that changes the fact that you can't claim with any certitude that he was 5'9. You're just stacking all factors in one direction versus another. i.e. you're ignoring that a) Most men stop growing by 20 b) most men exaggerate their heights by an inch.

Regarding your theory that he shrank: Men on average lose an inch between ages 30 and 70 (40 years period), with most towards the latter end. Sanders passport was 1918 (age 47). His reunion was 1911 (age 40). So he lost 1/2" in 7 years? That would be *very* atypical. Even assuming a linear rate of shrinking (which it isn't), if he shrank at that same rate, he'd have lost 3 inches by the time he was 70. Poor guy!

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Re: ERDNASE

Postby Leonard Hevia » April 21st, 2018, 11:00 am

Bob Coyne wrote:
Leonard Hevia wrote:As for passport applications, Houdini, who was 5"5, lied on his 1919 application and added an inch to his height. So back in 1919, men were exaggerating their height:

https://blogs.ancestry.com/cm/houdinis- ... red-flags/

Nice find Leonard!


My pleasure Bob!

lybrary wrote:
Brad Henderson wrote:we are dealing with someone whose life is built on lies.
We are talking about Sanders. It doesn't look like Sanders life was built on lies.


Chris--it doesn't look like Sanders' life was built on lies to you cuz you never read Demarest's Genii article on Sanders. If you had the read the article, you would have known that he kept secrets about aspects of his life that would have betrayed his public persona of the upstanding senator's son. He was also caught stealing a gold-heavy piece of ore from the Trade Dollar mine in 1897. I would not put that kind of behavior past the author of The Expert.
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Re: ERDNASE

Postby lybrary » April 21st, 2018, 11:01 am

Bob Coyne wrote:Of course none of that changes the fact that you can't claim with any certitude that he was 5'9.
Not with certitude, but with a very high probability bordering on certitude. We can also be certain he had dark eyes and dark hair.
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Re: ERDNASE

Postby Leonard Hevia » April 21st, 2018, 11:10 am

lybrary wrote:
Bob Coyne wrote:Of course none of that changes the fact that you can't claim with any certitude that he was 5'9.
Not with certitude, but with a very high probability bordering on certitude. We can also be certain he had dark eyes and dark hair.


So Sanders' height, hair and eye color is your grievance against Sanders? Not much left to quibble over is there? Once upon a time your laundry list of negatives against his candidacy such as shallow writing and reading skills was quite long. As you were proven wrong by Bill and Bob, you have had to scratch them off the list.

Have you discovered any evidence of Gallaway losing money at Faro, or Poker for that matter?

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Re: ERDNASE

Postby lybrary » April 21st, 2018, 11:15 am

Leonard Hevia wrote:So Sanders' height, hair and eye color is your grievance against Sanders? Not much left to quibble over is there?
Why would I constantly list all the problems Sanders has for being Erdnase? There are too many to list all the time. You have enough to do to try to explain away height, hair color, eye color.
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Re: ERDNASE

Postby Bill Mullins » April 21st, 2018, 11:31 am

lybrary wrote:( From the passport application: Any false or misleading statement with respect to this application and any supporting document, ... may result in the refusal to issue a passport, ... and may be grounds for criminal prosecution.)

Sanders' passport application is posted online at Ancestry.com. The statement you quote does not appear on it. As Buddy the Elf would say, Chris, you sit on a throne of lies.

Brad Henderson wrote:we are dealing with someone whose life is built on lies.

Brad -- are you talking about Erdnase, or Wasshuber?

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Re: ERDNASE

Postby Jackpot » April 21st, 2018, 11:59 am

lybrary wrote:Why would I constantly list all the problems Sanders has for being Erdnase? There are too many to list all the time. You have enough to do to try to explain away height, hair color, eye color.


Besides the fact that memories can be faulty:
Contact Lenses were invented in 1887.
People have been altering the color of their hair since 1500 B.C.
To be absolutely certain of the height of the various candidates the bodies will need to be exhumed. I hope none of them were cremated.
Not the one who created the Potter Index.

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Re: ERDNASE

Postby lybrary » April 21st, 2018, 12:32 pm

Jackpot wrote:Contact Lenses were invented in 1887.
You would need colored ones, and they were invented quite a bit later.
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Re: ERDNASE

Postby Jackpot » April 21st, 2018, 1:47 pm

lybrary wrote:You would need colored ones, and they were invented quite a bit later.

If you are speaking about the wide spread use of flexible colored lenses, yes. Stained glass dates as far back to 675AD. It is possible that crude colored contact lenses existed well before they became a commercial success. While I suspect it unlikely Erdnase wore contact lenses, and a wig or colored his hair when he met Smith, my suppositions are more reasonable than many of your fanciful postulations.

Even if you are correct about Sanders, at this point he and others are still better candidates than Gallaway.
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Re: ERDNASE

Postby Brad Henderson » April 21st, 2018, 1:52 pm

lybrary wrote:
Brad Henderson wrote:we are dealing with someone whose life is built on lies.
We are talking about Sanders. It doesn't look like Sanders life was built on lies.


dude.

he was a card cheat

that’s someone who intentionally misrepresents himself and steals for part of his living.

you do know that, right?

this is why knowledge of actual card cheating is relevant. How many real world card cheats have you met?

these people lie every time they sit across the table from someone. They have no problem taking money from people unfairly.

you’re dealing with a liar when you deal with erdnase. likely the most honest he ever was was when he wrote his book anonymously, and even then you can never be sure.

wise up, kid

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Re: ERDNASE

Postby lybrary » April 21st, 2018, 2:58 pm

Brad Henderson wrote:he was a card cheat
Sanders? I don't dispute that Erdnase was a cheat and that not everything he said or claimed must be true, like that he was related to Dalrymple, or that his real name was Andrews, but we were talking about Sanders. One can expect that you at least understand what the subject of a comment is. No?
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Re: ERDNASE

Postby Brad Henderson » April 21st, 2018, 3:11 pm

you don’t do logic good, do you?

any candidate for erdnase is a liar and a cheat. so you can’t trust what they reported in a document or said to anyone for that matter.

if sanders were erdnase, he will be a liar and a crook. Now tell me why a liar and a crook would have any issues lying on a passport?

because going to jail is so much riskier than being shot across the table????

try harder.

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Re: ERDNASE

Postby Bob Coyne » April 21st, 2018, 3:45 pm

lybrary wrote:
Brad Henderson wrote:he was a card cheat
Sanders? I don't dispute that Erdnase was a cheat and that not everything he said or claimed must be true, like that he was related to Dalrymple, or that his real name was Andrews, but we were talking about Sanders. One can expect that you at least understand what the subject of a comment is. No?

I suggest you read Sanders bio on himself in his college reunion writings. He sarcastically refers to his "in (co) herent modesty" and that although "he seems pure and noble as he can be" but to no avail since "you can't fool me" (he knows himself "through and through"). He then goes on further, describing his own bragging and exaggerating ways:

And to hear him talk, of the pace he's set; and of what he's done, for he's bragging yet; what a bad man he, and so Woolly! Gee! -- but I know you, Bill, and you can't fool me!

It sure sounds like he was very self aware of this trait (hmmm...just like Erdnase's self-described "insufferable conceit"). And it must have been a common perception among his classmates (else why refer to it?). So I think we can safely conclude that he was a known serial exaggerator.

Note: In the above quotes, Sanders writes in his style where he mimics accents and colloquial speech patterns (eg "sez" -> "says") Similar to what Erdnase does in the clubroom scene in the intro. I transcribed into normal english words for readability.

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Re: ERDNASE

Postby Leonard Hevia » April 21st, 2018, 4:01 pm

Bob Coyne wrote:Note: In the above quotes, Sanders writes in his style where he mimics accents and colloquial speech patterns (eg "sez" -> "says") Similar to what Erdnase does in the clubroom scene in the intro. I transcribed into normal english words for readability.


The use of vernacular speech to create a believable character like the African-American clubroom attendant is an Erdnasium trait we see in abundance in Sanders' writing. I have yet to see even one example of vernacular speech in Gallaway's writing.

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Re: ERDNASE

Postby Roger M. » April 21st, 2018, 4:51 pm

In his failed efforts to promote Gallaway as a serious candidate, Chris now has a dilemma on his hands.
The Genii Forum, and it's now dozens upon dozens of pages stating very clearly that "Gallaway is not Erdnase", is a major thorn in Chris's efforts to be regaled in history as the man who discovered Erdnase.

So, with Chris's somewhat guilt-free ability to fabricate evidence, twist evidence, and even outright lie about evidence ... he's taken a step we should have all seen coming.
In his newsletter, he's beginning a campaign to disparage the Genii Forum, and the folks who post to this thread.

From his most recent newsletter:
"In the past, some were riding this horse hard on the Genii forum and repeatedly pointed out that this means Gallaway could not be Erdnase. Those folks will now have to step down from that horse."

"...For example, the resident Genii forum 'genius' Bill Mullins has argued repeatedly against Gallaway's German background and influence..."

"Another comment that befuddles and entraps the Genii forum Erdnase intelligentsia."

He has mentioned Bill Mullins name on at least three or four more occasions in his newsletter ... always with a negative connotation. I find this incredibly creepy, and have to start to wonder what Chris see's as his end game in this process?

One does have to start to wonder what Chris is actually doing here in the Genii Forum every day?

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AJM
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Re: ERDNASE

Postby AJM » April 21st, 2018, 5:34 pm

I have no idea who Erdnase was.

(I don't particularly care as I, and most of us, have more important things to worry about.)

But I know he wasn't Gallaway...
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Jack Shalom
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Re: ERDNASE

Postby Jack Shalom » April 21st, 2018, 6:35 pm

AJM wrote:I have no idea who Erdnase was.

(I don't particularly care as I, and most of us, have more important things to worry about.)
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8yRRKJiWSSM
But I know he wasn't Gallaway...


I don't think anyone can predict that with accuracy. Perhaps tomorrow a Gallaway diary will turn up where he bemoans his faro losses, and mourns the loss of his confidence partners.

But it is possible to say quite accurately that at this point there are other candidates whose extant evidence is more compelling than Gallaway's.

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AJM
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Re: ERDNASE

Postby AJM » April 21st, 2018, 6:40 pm

Jack

Many thanks for adding that random YouTube video to my post.

Cheers

Andrew
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jdwatchboy
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Re: ERDNASE

Postby jdwatchboy » April 21st, 2018, 9:39 pm

ImageImage


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performer
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Re: ERDNASE

Postby performer » April 21st, 2018, 10:18 pm

jdwatchboy wrote:ImageImage


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I am not quite sure what those pictures have to do with Erdnase but I was at that particular event today and even spoke to one of the chaps in the pictures. The one in the red tie. I left early because the events were about the same length as this thread. There were lots of lectures which were of no interest to me since I know everything anyway.

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Re: ERDNASE

Postby Jack Shalom » April 21st, 2018, 11:29 pm

AJM wrote:Jack

Many thanks for adding that random YouTube video to my post.

Cheers

Andrew

LOL. that was pretty random. No idea how that got there.


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