ERDNASE

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Re: ERDNASE

Postby Leonard Hevia » March 21st, 2018, 11:54 pm

A magnificent compilation of comparisons! I heartily salute you Bob!

Chris--where are you?

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Re: ERDNASE

Postby Bob Coyne » March 22nd, 2018, 12:39 am

Thanks Leonard! It would be great if the text from Sanders' diaries and letters was transcribed. And maybe other stuff he's written could be unearthed. I bet there are more correspondences to be found.

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Re: ERDNASE

Postby Leonard Hevia » March 22nd, 2018, 1:29 am

You're welcome Bob. I remember Alexander mentioning that he had been sifting thru a number of Sanders' diaries as part of his research. Correspondence between Sanders and his circle of family and friends might provide more clues.

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Re: ERDNASE

Postby Bill Mullins » March 22nd, 2018, 2:44 am

I'd note that Sanders studied German in prep school, and as an Engineering student, almost certainly would have studied (or have been shown to be proficient in) it in college. So much of what Chris has been finding out over the last couple of weeks applies to Sanders as well as Gallaway.

But Sanders also studied French and Latin, which accounts for some of the foreign terms which appear in Expert. (Does Gallaway use foreign terms in his writings?)

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Re: ERDNASE

Postby Tom Gilbert » March 22nd, 2018, 7:44 am

That's quite a compelling list of similarities Bob, well done.

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Re: ERDNASE

Postby jkeyes1000 » March 22nd, 2018, 8:26 am

I don't know a great deal about Erdnase, but I am thoroughly acquainted with old-style writing. The terms and phrases quoted from Sanders (and reflected in EATCT) are far too common in the vernacular of the late nineteenth century, to constitute evidence of an unique character.

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Re: ERDNASE

Postby Leonard Hevia » March 22nd, 2018, 11:28 am

lybrary wrote:...the language in his mining books stilted, boring, and unlike Erdnase--his notebooks and his mining articles do not exhibit any Erdnase like command of language. So where does Sanders write like Erdnase? And please don't point to his poetry, because Expert is not a collection of poems. It is a textbook of what most non-magic and non-gambling folks would characterize as utterly boring stuff, like where your second joint of your first finger has to go, yet it exhibits remarkable command of language.

Sanders wasn't good enough of a writer that he could have several voices and make them so distinct that one wouldn't give a hint of the other. Actually his mine timbering and his notebooks are on the same level in terms of command of language. He doesn't seem to change voices there. Why would he use different voices for technical articles on mine-timbering and technical material on gambling and magic? They are both technical in nature. One would expect similar qualities of language to be present. There are objective metrics that can be applied. One is vocabulary richness, something Erdnase has in spades. Sanders uses the same words over and over again. He has a narrow vocabulary, and no flair for expressions.


Wasn't good enough of a writer? Stilted, boring, and unlike Erdnase? A narrow vocabulary and no flair for expressions? This is what happens when one applies objective linguistic metrics and dogmatically adheres to linguistic pseudo science. Of course, the similarities in writing, the six decks of playing cards purchased before the camping trip, the perfect anagram of Sanders' name to the author, proximity to Chicago at the right time, Mutus Nomen in is notebook, and physically matching Smith's description could all just be coincidence.

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Re: ERDNASE

Postby Bill Mullins » March 22nd, 2018, 11:49 am

lybrary wrote: But you are calling linguistics a pseudo-science. I will stop arguing with you.


The hallmark of science is repeatable, testable predictions. The techniques you and Olsson have applied haven't been tested and shown to be accurate. Pseudo-science is a fair description.

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Re: ERDNASE

Postby Leonard Hevia » March 22nd, 2018, 11:58 am

Bill Mullins wrote:The hallmark of science is repeatable, testable predictions. The techniques you and Olsson have applied haven't been tested and shown to be accurate. Pseudo-science is a fair description.


Hear, hear, Bill!

I understand Chris' misguided point of view concerning Sanders' writing since he has been under the influence of his linguistic pseudo science quack guru, Dr. Ollson. Given Bob's post comparing Sanders' writing to Erdnase, I wonder if Chris will continue to criticize his writing abilities and take another crack at it. Or is it another quack at it?

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Re: ERDNASE

Postby Bob Coyne » March 22nd, 2018, 12:01 pm

jkeyes1000 wrote:I don't know a great deal about Erdnase, but I am thoroughly acquainted with old-style writing. The terms and phrases quoted from Sanders (and reflected in EATCT) are far too common in the vernacular of the late nineteenth century, to constitute evidence of an unique character.


It's more than just old-style writing or even the exact phraseology (though that is certainly one aspect) but the window to their thinking and personality that it reveals. Erdnase and Sanders both write and think like engineers, with their focus on importance of details/exactness and concomitant use of technical terminology like "axiom" or "longitudinal" "invariably" etc. That alone is not proof of course, but it's an important common trait and part of what makes Erdnase stand out among magic writers of his time. Likewise, both are proud of what they've achieved, and neither is shy about claiming superiority of their systems over others ("vastly superior", "far in advance of").

So that mode of thinking and presenting is coupled with the overall playfulness, style, and spirit of their writing. Both clearly think of themselves as writers -- they're not just concerned with accurately conveying the topic but in conveying an attitude and humor. The self-conscious use of accents/colloquialisms, scare quotes, foreign terms, etc are all part of that. As is the humor and at times an almost satiric attitude.

One good example of this type of humor (that I think Marty Demerest first pointed out) is their similar wordplay, turning on different senses of the same term (a form of zeugma).
ERDNASE: The Longitudinal Shift — This shift, for which we have to thank no one, is given a very long name, but the reader who is interested sufficiently to practice the process, will find it a very short shift
SANDERS: along with HEART-FAILURE we had a sudden change of HEART

And the ironic and mocking tone in this (which I quoted earlier) coupled with very similar topics and word choice:
ERDNASE: Self- styled "ex-PROFESSIONALS" have regaled the public with astounding disclosures of their former WILES and WICKEDNESS, and have proven a wonderful knowledge of the subject by EXHUMING some antiquated moss-covered ruses
SANDERS (MINING LETTER): Certainly in part it is too good to keep, and in a spirit of benevolence and as an offering upon the shrine of PROFESSIONAL goodwill toward PROFESSIONAL brethren, the following extracts have been EXHUMED from their obscure PLACE OF BURIAL ... And how many reports presuming to describe mining properties are written that should never have been penned – because of the WICKED WASTE of ink resulting therefrom.

So while there certainly is some commonality among all writers of any given era, reducing this to modern vs old-style writing doesn't address how Erdnase sounds different than other magic writers of his day. The excerpts I gave were intended to focus attention on his characteristic traits and qualities and how those are mirrored in Sanders. It's a bit like when you see someone who reminds you of someone else...the first thing you might do is to identify what in particular they have in common (shape of forehead, manner of smiling, etc).

Plus, there are many more such correspondences in a similar vein that all contribute to the sense that they could very well be the same person. For example, here are a bunch of excerpts all concerned with emphasizing the quality/degree of a particular method. Erdnase and Sanders had the same set of concerns and convey them in a similar manner. That transcends old-style writing and really has little to do with it.

------ advanced/superior ---------

Erdnase: believe them VASTLY SUPERIOR to others that have come under our observation.
Sanders(MT): and represents THE MOST ADVANCED timbering in use.
Sanders(MT): and in improving upon well-known methods already in vogue, have placed the science of supporting mine excavations by timbers, as developed by the, FAR IN ADVANCE of that in use among the older and less progressive mining communities.

------ best/simplest method/form ---------

Erdnase: we shall describe several of the BEST METHODS known for secretly exchanging
Erdnase: the BEST AND SIMPLEST METHODS of accomplishing the sleights
Sanders(MT): probably the SIMPLEST METHOD OF aligning the side plates of inclined-shaft sets
Sanders(MT): being the SIMPLEST AND CHEAPEST METHOD OF framing
Sanders(MT): the SIMPLEST FORM OF cribbing is that of poles

------ satisfactory method/manner ---------

Erdnase: to perform the action in anything like A SATISFACTORY MANNER
Erdnase: the foregoing METHOD will be found SATISFACTORY.
Sanders(MT): while the METHOD OF timbering is extremely simple it is UNSATISFACTORY...

------ an excellent one ---------

Erdnase: The first described is AN EXCELLENT ONE for retaining either the top or bottom stock and is in common use among professional
Erdnase: The position is AN EXCELLENT ONE for ordinary dealing, and should never be changed.
Sanders(MT): this joint is without doubt AN EXCELLENT ONE when, and only when, the entire pressure upon the frame comes from the direction a or c.

------ the utmost ---------

Erdnase: acquiring perfect ability to run the whole deck through in this manner with THE UTMOST rapidity
Erdnase: An expert can run the whole deck with THE UTMOST rapidity
Sanders(MT): huge timbers that have been frames with THE UTMOST precision
Sanders(MT): in framing the sets THE UTMOST care is taken that the measurements be exact
Sanders (reunion): lifted to THAT UTMOST pinnacle

------ by far the more/most ---------

Erdnase: though this method IS now BY FAR THE MORE prevalent among men who play for money
Erdnase: The riffle ... IS BY FAR THE MORE prevalent method in use among regular card players.
Sanders(MT): this station ... IS BY FAR THE MOST economical in the end

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Re: ERDNASE

Postby Leonard Hevia » March 22nd, 2018, 1:10 pm

I am stunned by Bob's further revelations, and not a moment too soon at that. I had endured a steady barrage of Chris' adolescent incantations, and a fetid fecal fecundity of his linguistic metrics nonsense. Bob arrived like that cavalry charging in from Dalrymple's Puck cartoon "Doomed."

Doomed...on that note--what happened to Chris?

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Re: ERDNASE

Postby jkeyes1000 » March 22nd, 2018, 2:20 pm

Though I have little personal interest in discovering Erdnase's identity, I do have a great deal of experience in the study of pseudonymous literature. For over thirty years, I have scrutinised thousands of novels known colloquially as "1960s Sleaze" in order to determine their authorship. In that time, much progress has been made. Turns out that some now famous writers got their start in this genre. Names like Harlan Ellison, Lawrence Block, Donald Westlake, Even Hunter, and John Jakes amongst them.

My method is not to focus on the more common words and phrases found in the text, but rather the most idiosyncratic ones. Those that are encountered least often in the works of others.

I have read EATCT just now, and pulled a few lines that I think are especially significant. If anyone can match a number of these, it would surely bolster his case.

"with the sublimest unconcern" and "unostentatious' (an apparent preference for 'un' words)

"We bucked the tiger"

"requires considerable address" (often repeated phrase)

"grown gray", "grow chesty" etc.

"as easy as habit'

"in a twinkling"

"made like a flash", "in a flash" etc.

"just barely sufficiently" and "very much easier" (somewhat cumbersome expressions)

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Re: ERDNASE

Postby Bill Mullins » March 22nd, 2018, 3:03 pm

jkeyes1000 wrote: For over thirty years, I have scrutinised thousands of novels known colloquially as "1960s Sleaze"


You read stroke books? Shocking.

Turns out that some now famous writers got their start in this genre. Names like Harlan Ellison, Lawrence Block, Donald Westlake, Even Hunter, and John Jakes amongst them.


And closer to home, Bruce Elliott

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Re: ERDNASE

Postby jkeyes1000 » March 22nd, 2018, 3:16 pm

I have read magic books and porn titles by "Bruce Elliott" but have established no connection. I assume you are being facetious. If you have any "inside information" I and my colleagues in this field would be interested.

My best guess has always been that the Bruce Elliotts were authored by the sci-fi writer, Robert Silverberg, who is known to have used the noms de plume, "Dan Eliot", "Don Elliott" etc.
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Re: ERDNASE

Postby Richard Kaufman » March 22nd, 2018, 3:20 pm

No, Bill is not being facetious. Bruce Elliott, editor of The Phoenix and author of many excellent magic books for the public, wrote of male pulp magazines. He may also have written "60s sleaze." But it is definitely Bruce Elliott, and no one else.
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Re: ERDNASE

Postby Bill Mullins » March 22nd, 2018, 3:27 pm

I don't think it is particularly "inside" information. It's been mentioned here on the forum before. The first line in his wikipedia biography makes the connection. His obituary in The Linking Ring included "He had served as editor for various magazines including Playcraft, Tempo, Dude, Gent, and Rogue, for the past 20 years."

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Re: ERDNASE

Postby jkeyes1000 » March 22nd, 2018, 3:29 pm

Richard Kaufman wrote:No, Bill is not being facetious. Bruce Elliott, editor of The Phoenix and author of many excellent magic books for the public, wrote of male pulp magazines. He may also have written "60s sleaze." But it is definitely Bruce Elliott, and no one else.


I wouldn't doubt that Bruce Elliott sold stories to "esoteric" publishers in the 50s and even 60s, but I have found very explicit novels copyrighted in the mid 70s with that byline. As I understand it, Elliott died in 1972.

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Re: ERDNASE

Postby Zig Zagger » March 22nd, 2018, 3:35 pm

The hallmark of science is repeatable, testable predictions.


I think this is a very narrow definition. It would exclude major parts of the social sciences (sic!), law, philology etc. , basically any analysis that cannot be reproduced in a laboratory or through empirical studies.

Linguistic analysis does dive much deeper than "Look, these two phrases are similar. They must come from the same author." I have read Dr. Olsson's report more than once and found it very thoughtful and compelling. Chris is to be applauded for commissioning this research out of his own pocket. Thus, he has advanced the discussion significantly beyond the predominant and prescientific level of "I believe..." versus "I don't think that..." here. I would therefore second his call that promoters of other candidates should bring comparable analyses to the table before single-handedly rejecting those of noted experts.

For me, both Chris and Bob have listed some great matches and some pretty weak ones. The point is: Without knowing anything substantial about the commonness of a word or phrase, its frequency of occurrence at a certain time in a certain genre, its probability of being found in one work or the other etc., these can only be tagged as "pretty interesting." Rigorous linguistic (or other) analysis by experts can certainly help to separate the wheat from the chaff and promote some findings to the level of "evidence." Chris is already following this trail. Others aren't.
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Re: ERDNASE

Postby Leonard Hevia » March 22nd, 2018, 4:29 pm

Zig Zagger wrote:Rigorous linguistic (or other) analysis by experts can certainly help to separate the wheat from the chaff and promote some findings to the level of "evidence."


Really? I suspect rigorous linguistic analyses can create the "illusion" of evidence. All of that linguistic mumbo jumbo apparently created the illusion in Chris's mind that Sanders was not on the same level of writing as Erdnase. It might have also helped increase the sales of his Gallaway ebooks. It is a poor substitute for the actual research Bob has done in comparing Sanders' writing with Erdnase. The kind of actual research which I suspect Chris and Dr. Ollson did very little of.

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Re: ERDNASE

Postby Bill Mullins » March 22nd, 2018, 4:35 pm

Bruce Elliott died Mar 22, 1973, after being in a coma since being hit by a taxi in Greenwich village previously, on Nov. 30.

@Zig Zagger - I would contend that much of the social sciences aren't particularly scientific, and most of the law certainly isn't. Dunno about philology.

Your take on Olsson's report is similar to my initial thoughts. But after I read it a couple times and really dug into it, I realized that much of it is, in fact, at the level of "Look, these two phrases are similar. They must come from the same author."

The thing that is lacking in Olsson's report is context. For example, Tables 14 through 19 summarize counts of punctuation marks adjacent to conjunctions. The only independent variable is the author. The date of the work is not controlled for, even though Olsson makes the point that punctuation (specifically, the semi-colon) use changed over the era in question. Thus, you'd expect there to be a difference in semi-colon usage between 52 Wonders (1877) and Estimating for Printers (1927). Olsson's data does show a difference, but he attributes it entirely to authorial voice, instead of how how usage in general changed over the intervening 50 years. Further, he doesn't give any evidence that the specific tests he run (for example, counts of semi-colons immediately followed by conjunctions) are a useful tool for identifying authors. He asserts that every semi-colon is the result of a choice by an author, and the words following are also choices. But he doesn't show, or cite any other work showing, that these choices are consistent markers of an author: that the have some consistency within a work, or from one work to another, or over time, or between or within genres.

Without this missing rigor, we are left solely with Olsson's assertion that two works with similar usage patterns are therefore more likely to have been by the same authors.

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Re: ERDNASE

Postby jkeyes1000 » March 22nd, 2018, 5:45 pm

Only because this might be of interest to fans of Bruce Elliott, I give you what little I have found in my research so far.

One book that might technically qualify as an example of "60s Sleaze" is MIDWOOD 71--A Woman by Bruce Elliott (1961). However, this is merely a reissue of the LION paperback original from 1952--One Is A Lonely Number. It is not even vaguely pornographic.

MIDWOOD published a few other titles by "Bruce Elliott" in the 1960s, but I have no confirmation that the magic writer wrote them. Robert Silverberg was amongst the first and most prolific of MIDWOOD's young authors. Initially, he used pseudonyms such as "Loren Beauchamp", but soon (circa 1962) adopted the "Don Elliott" moniker for most of his output.

Many of these writers knew each other personally, and would collaborate (notably Don Westlake and Larry Block, aka "Alan Marshall and Sheldon Lord"), and even lend their assumed names to fellow writers in order to better the chances of an unknown author to sell his work.

Much shenanigans went on, and we are still not fully certain who wrote what in every case. It is a very confusing and complex study.

It may be that Bruce Elliott wrote a few more books of this type during the 1960s, but I think it equally possible that someone else took the name and ran with it. Perhaps Elliott allowed Silverberg to use it for his advantage.

They were both sci-fi writers, and both had a connection to the sleaze industry. William Hamling had been the publisher of pulps like Tales Of Imagination in the 1950s before he established his porn empire, which included ROGUE magazine and NIGHSTAND books.

As I said above, there is the anomalous existence of explicit porn in the mid 70s by "Bruce Elliott". The style matches that of Silverberg. And Bruce Elliott couldn't have written anything later than 1972.

Knowing the rapid turnover rate of manuscripts at this period, it is unlikely for a new novel to remain unpublished for several years. Publishers couldn't get enough material. They were constantly churning.

And though a very few authors did dare to use their real names in the early 60s, most of the really uninhibited stuff in the 70s was pseudonymous. One could still get busted for obscenity in those days. Hamling himself spent time in prison for the offense.

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Re: ERDNASE

Postby Bob Coyne » March 22nd, 2018, 7:04 pm

jkeyes1000 wrote:My method is not to focus on the more common words and phrases found in the text, but rather the most idiosyncratic ones. Those that are encountered least often in the works of others.
I have read EATCT just now, and pulled a few lines that I think are especially significant. If anyone can match a number of these, it would surely bolster his case.

"with the sublimest unconcern" and "unostentatious' (an apparent preference for 'un' words)
"We bucked the tiger"
"requires considerable address" (often repeated phrase)
[...]


Yes, I agree that finding matches for these or similar idiosyncratic phrases or words would further bolster the case. The ones you list are among ones I've also noticed (and looked for but haven't found correspondences). However, there are some other rather uncommon words that are used by both ("longitudinal" and "contrivances").

But word clusters, phrasing, authorial personality/voice, stylistic quirks (scare quotes, colloquialisms), etc are all other factors that help point to a common author or not. Here are a couple other examples of thematic/idiomatic matches.

------ objection/difficulty overcome by the use of XX which is YY ---------
Erdnase: This OBJECTION is entirely OVERCOME BY THE USE OF the break, WHICH IS ILLUSTRATED in the following blind shuffle
Sanders: this DIFFICULTY is OVERCOME BY THE USE OF a half right-angled miter, of 45 deg., WHICH IS FRAMED from the face of the timber...

------- reward/overcoming difficulty on the road to success -------
erdnase: the student will be fairly established on the ROAD TO SUCCESS, and have OVERCOME by far the greatest DIFFICULTY.
sanders: while the story is easy to relate, the ROAD at times has been a HARD one to travel, but abundant SUCCESS seems to have been the REWARD.

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Re: ERDNASE

Postby Leonard Hevia » March 22nd, 2018, 7:50 pm

jkeyes1000 wrote:My method is not to focus on the more common words and phrases found in the text, but rather the most idiosyncratic ones. Those that are encountered least often in the works of others.

I have read EATCT just now, and pulled a few lines that I think are especially significant. If anyone can match a number of these, it would surely bolster his case.

"with the sublimest unconcern" and "unostentatious' (an apparent preference for 'un' words)


Just scanning Bob's amazing list of comparisons between both authors on this thread, I noticed Sanders using an "un" word:


------ satisfactory method/manner ---------

Erdnase: to perform the action in anything like A SATISFACTORY MANNER
Erdnase: the foregoing METHOD will be found SATISFACTORY.
Sanders(MT): while the METHOD OF timbering is extremely simple it is UNSATISFACTORY...

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Re: ERDNASE

Postby Bob Coyne » March 22nd, 2018, 8:39 pm

jkeyes1000 wrote: I have read EATCT just now, and pulled a few lines that I think are especially significant. If anyone can match a number of these, it would surely bolster his case.

"We bucked the tiger"


btw, "Bucked the tiger" is a term for the gambling game faro ( https://www.legendsofamerica.com/we-faro/ ). So although Sanders doesn't use "buck the tiger" he does directly refer to faro as well as other gambling games in this poem below. The poem also revolves around a pun on "shell" (another example of Sanders enjoyment of wordplay). The classmate he's writing about worked in creating steel castings for munitions (shells).

Come, Johnson, cease your naughty ways,
Make simple faro, poker plays
Or roulette e'en, but stop this craze
For playin' the "Shell game."

However, Johnson, when I learn
The shell game played by your concern
Is not the western game I yearn
To see played on the square,
[...]

And while we're at it, I'll point out that both Sanders (above) and Erdnase both use the phrase "on the square".

Erdnase: However, we have reason to believe it is generally dealt ON THE SQUARE in gambling rooms that are run openly
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Re: ERDNASE

Postby jkeyes1000 » March 22nd, 2018, 8:39 pm

Leonard: I think we all use the word "unsatisfactory" in common parlance. But 'unconcern" and "unostentatious" are a bit more laboured. Especially when shorter and simpler terms would do.

The writer seems to prefer the rhythm or the momentum of such words--or perhaps the emphasis on the first syllable.

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Re: ERDNASE

Postby Leonard Hevia » March 22nd, 2018, 8:46 pm

jkeyes1000 wrote:Leonard: I think we all use the word "unsatisfactory" in common parlance. But 'unconcern" and "unostentatious" are a bit more laboured. Especially when shorter and simpler terms would do.

The writer seems to prefer the rhythm or the momentum of such words--or perhaps the emphasis on the first syllable.


So in other words, you mean to look for uncommon un-words. Right? Sure, but you didn't specify that in your post.

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Re: ERDNASE

Postby Zenner » March 22nd, 2018, 9:26 pm

Bob Coyne wrote: And while we're at it, I'll point out that both Sanders (above) and Erdnase both use the phrase "on the square"


That probably means that they were both Freemasons.
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Re: ERDNASE

Postby Carlo Morpurgo » March 23rd, 2018, 10:02 am

A while back I wrote a program that would extract common sequences of words from two text files. I compared eatct with several books of the time period. I am not sure why I had not posted the comparison with Sanders' book back then, but I have done it now (see eatct-mine.txt).

https://drive.google.com/drive/folders/ ... DZ4UGswZjQ

This is just raw data, I am not promoting one of the other theory.

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Re: ERDNASE

Postby Bob Coyne » March 23rd, 2018, 1:34 pm

Carlo Morpurgo wrote:A while back I wrote a program that would extract common sequences of words from two text files. I compared eatct with several books of the time period. I am not sure why I had not posted the comparison with Sanders' book back then, but I have done it now (see eatct-mine.txt).


Carlo, Thanks for posting this again and updating with mine timbering. Interesting raw data!

btw, do you include all of Mine Timbering or just the Sanders part when generating the sequences?

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Re: ERDNASE

Postby Bob Coyne » March 23rd, 2018, 1:59 pm

Carlo Morpurgo wrote:A while back I wrote a program that would extract common sequences of words from two text files. I compared eatct with several books of the time period. I am not sure why I had not posted the comparison with Sanders' book back then, but I have done it now (see eatct-mine.txt).

https://drive.google.com/drive/folders/ ... DZ4UGswZjQ

This is just raw data, I am not promoting one of the other theory.


Some that jumped out at me as relatively idiosyncratic are "is sufficiently answered" and "be successfully worked" "the greater the X....the greater the Y" as well as the double negative "without inconvenience"

Erdnase: The methods described can BE SUCCESSFULLY WORKED with as many as eight or ten cards, though of course the greater the number, the more probability of the dealer noticing the diminished condition of the deck
Sanders: In size these different deposits vary, from the deposits too small to BE SUCCESSFULLY WORKED in a commercial way, to immense masses of ore

Erdnase: His purpose in that respect IS SUFFICIENTLY ANSWERED by keeping the desired cards at the bottom.
Sanders: the required information as to orebodies beneath the surface of a mining claim IS SUFFICIENTLY ANSWERED in and by the workings of adjoining property

Erdnase: THE GREATER THE emergency, or THE GREATER THE stakes, THE GREATER THE nerve required.
Sanders: THE GREATER THE diameter THE GREATER THE strength of the timber.

Erdnase: The bottom palm may be held while the deal is in progress WITHOUT INCONVENIENCE.
Sanders: leaves sufficient hight for passage WITHOUT INCONVENIENCE.

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Re: ERDNASE

Postby Carlo Morpurgo » March 23rd, 2018, 5:09 pm

Bob Coyne wrote:
Carlo, Thanks for posting this again and updating with mine timbering. Interesting raw data!

btw, do you include all of Mine Timbering or just the Sanders part when generating the sequences?


Just the Sanders part.....

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Re: ERDNASE

Postby Leonard Hevia » March 24th, 2018, 1:18 pm

Along with "longitudinal" the word "invariably" was used by both authors:

Erdnase: Works on conjuring INVARIABLY devote much space to the consideration of card tricks
Sanders (MT): INVARIABLY in the support of earthworks

And a word/phrase used by both authors:
Erdnase: In conjuring the break is usually EMPLOYED when the pack is held in the left hand as for dealing
Erdnase: to obtain a perfect understanding of THE METHODS EMPLOYED, and the exact manner in which they are executed
Sanders (MT): there are THE METHODS COMMONLY EMPLOYED in the horizontal workings
Sanders (MT): The materials that are EMPLOYED for the purpose of supporting earthworks are

And still no sign of Chris...

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Re: ERDNASE

Postby Leonard Hevia » March 24th, 2018, 2:09 pm

As an engineer would be, both authors are also fond of the word "system" and again "invariably":

Erdnase: Erdnase SYSTEM of blind shuffles/stock shuffling/cull shuffling/palming
Sanders(MT): Here the SYSTEM applies the unit to the support of excavations
Sanders (MT): Almost INVARIABLY the units of the square-set SYSTEM are vertically placed within the deposits

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Re: ERDNASE

Postby Bob Coyne » March 24th, 2018, 6:28 pm

Here's a link to a larger set of linguistic and thematic correspondences (28 page pdf) between Sanders and Erdnase that I've compiled. It is organized around what I see as the key factors (personality, engineering bkg, wordplay, etc) that characterize the similarities we find in the writings.

A few of the examples were first pointed out by David Alexander, Marty Demarest, and Bill Mullins (on this Forum and in articles). I try to indicate that if/when I'm aware of it. It also includes a few examples culled and expanded from Carlo Morpurga's automatically extracted list of common word sequences.

http://www.cs.columbia.edu/~coyne/erdnase-sanders-use-of-language.pdf

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Re: ERDNASE

Postby Bob Coyne » March 24th, 2018, 6:34 pm

Leonard Hevia wrote:As an engineer would be, both authors are also fond of the word "system" and again "invariably":

Erdnase: Erdnase SYSTEM of blind shuffles/stock shuffling/cull shuffling/palming
Sanders(MT): Here the SYSTEM applies the unit to the support of excavations
Sanders (MT): Almost INVARIABLY the units of the square-set SYSTEM are vertically placed within the deposits


yes, I think Sanders' engineering training manifests itself in these and many other ways. Check out the pdf file I posted that catalogs many of them. :-)

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Re: ERDNASE

Postby Leonard Hevia » March 24th, 2018, 7:39 pm

THAT is an amazing compilation Bob! Thanks to you, David, Marty, Bill, and Carlo, there is enough material in this PDF for a lecture on common themes and use of language between Sanders and Erdnase. I understand that the next MCW is looking to sign up speakers and you should give it your consideration. I find it hard to believe these two are not the same author.

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Re: ERDNASE

Postby lybrary » March 24th, 2018, 9:36 pm

Leonard Hevia wrote:THAT is an amazing compilation Bob! I find it hard to believe these two are not the same author.

I guess suddenly it is not pseudo-science anymore, even though Bob is completely neglecting to include any data on significance, nor does he offer any comparisons to other authors as a control. Without some measure of significance Bob's list is meaningless. Just because two authors use words such as 'thus', 'system', 'knowledge', 'every known', 'known as', 'truth of', etc. doesn't mean they are one and the same. Unless one can show that both use these words much more frequently than the average, or one compares several authors against each other, which accomplishes basically the same, you are looking at meaningless noise. Bob could have learned a bit from Olsson and my own work. Olsson typically makes comparisons among a group of authors and sees who fits best for any particular category of similar features. In the data I have presented I include the numbers of how frequent a particular word or phrase is, and I only include those where Erdnase does exhibit unusual usage. In other words, both Olsson and myself have demonstrated that our results are significant and are unlikely simply a coincidental overlap. Bob has failed to do that.
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Re: ERDNASE

Postby Bob Coyne » March 24th, 2018, 10:16 pm

lybrary wrote:
Leonard Hevia wrote:THAT is an amazing compilation Bob! I find it hard to believe these two are not the same author.

I guess suddenly it is not pseudo-science anymore, even though Bob is completely neglecting to include any data on significance, nor does he offer any comparisons to other authors as a control.


Sure, it's possible that some of the things I and others have noticed are not as significant as they seem. However, there are many correspondences, some pretty amazing; and I think pointing them out makes that even more apparent. Generally inquiry proceeds by first identifying and characterizing differences to make them obvious. So that was and is my goal in compiling and organizing these examples.

Furthermore, for centuries, textual analysis has been done in a similar manner, picking apart the salient aspects of texts and making qualitative judgements and generalizations. And then collecting examples to support (or shed doubt on) those judgments. You can choose to ignore what Erdnase and Sanders actually write/sound like, what common linguistic patterns they exhibit, and how ties into their personalities. Or you can simply disagree with the judgements...fair enough. However, it is a mistake to insist on being quantitive from the very start before having a good intuitive idea or insight into what you're actually looking at. This is known, in pejorative terms, as scientism.

None of the above implies that it wouldn't be useful when possible to find statistical validation. However, much of what is apparent to us human language users is not easily amenable to statistical analysis, especially with a small, disparate corpus. Not to mention the poverty of statistical models to actually understand the meaning of the texts involved. Nonetheless, there's no doubt some statistical validation (eg word clusters and frequencies in comparative texts) can be done to shed further light on some of the patterns that I've noticed and extracted. While other parts would resist such techniques.

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Re: ERDNASE

Postby Leonard Hevia » March 24th, 2018, 10:17 pm

lybrary wrote:Just because two authors use words such as 'thus', 'system', 'knowledge', 'every known', 'known as', 'truth of', etc. doesn't mean they are one and the same.


Yes, and don't forget the words longitudinal and axiom. You forgot (?) those two words.

lybrary wrote:In other words, both Olsson and myself have demonstrated that our results are significant and are unlikely simply a coincidental overlap. Bob has failed to do that.


The data is in front of you Chris. What could be more significant than that? The comparisons are self-evident. If Gallaway had produced the kind of writing that Bob has pointed out from Sanders, you would have been shouting from the rooftops at the uncanny similarities. Since there is pretty much nothing that stands out in Gallaway's work, you have invoked Dr. Olsson again. That is pretty much all you have to go on since you have not presented any striking similarities in writing between Erdnase and Gallaway. That it took you two days to formulate a response which is comprised of more linguistic pseudo science, Dr. Olsson's findings, and nothing from Gallaway is......significant.

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Re: ERDNASE

Postby Bob Coyne » March 24th, 2018, 10:24 pm

Leonard Hevia wrote:THAT is an amazing compilation Bob! Thanks to you, David, Marty, Bill, and Carlo, there is enough material in this PDF for a lecture on common themes and use of language between Sanders and Erdnase. I understand that the next MCW is looking to sign up speakers and you should give it your consideration. I find it hard to believe these two are not the same author.


Thanks Leonard! I agree...these two writers sound so much alike (aside from all the other circumstantial evidence). When I first read Sanders, I noticed the similarity almost immediately. But I found that actually identifying and correlating the specific instances made the resemblance even more striking and clarified (to my mind anyway) some of the underlying and more general shared themes/traits.

Talking about this at MCW sounds interesting. When/where is that?


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