ERDNASE

Discuss general aspects of Genii.
Guest

Re: ERDNASE

Postby Guest » June 4th, 2007, 10:27 am

I believe that 'Expert' is long past the time when folks could resonably debate as to its value and historical significance.

'Expert at the Card Table' has already established its place in the athenaeum of card literature.

Although anything CAN be debated, this particular book is long past the period where that debate really has any significant purpose.

Guest

Re: ERDNASE

Postby Guest » June 4th, 2007, 10:33 am

To David Lindgreen,

Since I haven't seen your photographer I cannot comment on his or her quality, but there is a very real reason why you cannot match up. It is also evidence that supports my observation that the reference photos used in Erdnase were taken at different times.

If you will privately email me, I'll give you my observations that should solve your problem.

David Alexaneer
dalexander006@socal.rr.com

Guest

Re: ERDNASE

Postby Guest » June 4th, 2007, 10:49 am

Re:
I believe that 'Expert' is long past the time when folks could resonably debate as to its value and historical significance.

'Expert at the Card Table' has already established its place in the athenaeum of card literature.

Although anything CAN be debated, this particular book is long past the period where that debate really has any significant purpose
I respect your wish not to discuss the book or its presumed value to students of this craft.

And I hope you can understand that others may not share your opinion or value a perspective based upon such a presumption.

The text is. The author is not. Its previous champion is dead. Some may wonder as to the "intent" of the work and the nature of its ideal reader.

Kindly understand that some of us did read the "erdnase" text critically and while it remains a respected text it is not necessarily Gospel Truth or an ideal pedagogical tool for most students of the craft.

Believe it or not, not all creative, productive and very serious students of this craft have use for "erdnase" per-se and may even worry over its use as a political more than artistic instrument.

Reasonably yours,

Jonathan

Guest

Re: ERDNASE

Postby Guest » June 4th, 2007, 10:49 am

richard,

as i said, i think it may have been a good book then, and vernon learned from it. i would pick other books in front of it to learn from. people may have thought the authors name real at the time but, i believe the mystery has kept the book alive more than the moves/tricks that are in it.

Guest

Re: ERDNASE

Postby Guest » June 4th, 2007, 12:19 pm

Jonathan:

I use three of his four methods for determining a card merely thought of, on an almost daily basis. I also use the Diagonal Palm Shift from the legerdemain section, and in the past have performed The Top and Bottom Production, which is a fine effect.

Thomas Baxter

Guest

Re: ERDNASE

Postby Guest » June 4th, 2007, 4:41 pm

as i said, i think it may have been a good book then, and vernon learned from it. i would pick other books in front of it to learn from. people may have thought the authors name real at the time but, i believe the mystery has kept the book alive more than the moves/tricks that are in it.
The books has remained popular thanks to Vernon's recommendations to his serious students and their belief that he was right to recommend it. Simply put: Vernon changed magic. His inspiration was Erdnase.

But let me ask you this: if you were begining a serious study of the piano, would you begin by studying the work of Elton John?

Guest

Re: ERDNASE

Postby Guest » June 4th, 2007, 5:11 pm

Perhaps Tiny Tim or Neil Young would have worked better using a guitar comparison.

Comparing "elton john" as pop music piano player to "erdnase" as card player diva does not work out too well on the erdnase side.

Unfortunately the guy who wrote text for "erdnase" took what at this time reads as a condescending tone and mentions but did not teach much of what one needs to learn in the craft, while the guy who wrote text for "elton john" wrote effective sentimental things that have stood for a generation and earned the performer much publicity.

Whatever crew was involved in the 'erdnase' text went away quietly into the indifference of the conjuring community. On the other hand, Reginald Dwight, now Sir Elton John is doing fine, long live the queen. ;)

Guest

Re: ERDNASE

Postby Guest » June 4th, 2007, 8:42 pm

I wonder if this thread has wandered off its LONG standing topic (the longest single thread on the Genii forum), which is the hunt for Erdnase and interesting observations in the text of the book itself which might assist in identifying who he could have been.

I'm not sure its the thread for debates.......unless its a debate about who Erdnase was.

Guest

Re: ERDNASE

Postby Guest » June 4th, 2007, 9:04 pm

Re Jonathan Townsend: quote "Whatever crew was involved in the 'erdnase' text..."
Crew? :confused: :confused: :confused: Seems unlikely to me.

Guest

Re: ERDNASE

Postby Guest » June 4th, 2007, 9:17 pm

Re: the "crew" remark....there is no evidence that there was anyone other than Erdnase involved in the writing of the book.

Guest

Re: ERDNASE

Postby Guest » June 4th, 2007, 9:58 pm

Re: the "crew" remark....there is no evidence that there was anyone other than Erdnase involved in the writing of the book
The idea that there is more than one person involved in the writing of the book is intriguing, and one that has been overlooked just because the available "evidence" suggests otherwise.
I quoted the word "evidence" because, to the best of my knowledge, only a couple of people have actually seen "Erdnase." The fact that only a couple of people met one guy does not rule out a couple or group of people writing the book then one guy acting as a front man.
Of course, I am not by any means an EACT scholar, so if anyone wishes to slap me silly with proof otherwise, please feel free to do so.

Gord

Guest

Re: ERDNASE

Postby Guest » June 4th, 2007, 11:10 pm

Gord, I don't think the suggestion that more than one person may have had a hand in writing the book has been overlooked. James Harto is often cited by some as having had a hand in writing the "Legerdemain" section of the book (though I do not find the evidence compelling) and many of those supporting the Milton Franklin Andrews theory of authorship bring in an "editor" to help him with the writing. "Editors" as diverse as Mark Twain and William Hilliar have been suggested and investigated.

Guest

Re: ERDNASE

Postby Guest » June 4th, 2007, 11:34 pm

Speaking as a published author, editor, and publisher, for reasons I have already articulated in this thread and my Genii article, there is no evidence that Expert is the product of anything other than one man. Indeed, the book itself is strong evidence that there was no editor or ghost writer involved.

Guest

Re: ERDNASE

Postby Guest » June 5th, 2007, 2:39 am

The illustrations show the same person's hands throughout. That, I think links the two sections and, considering the person who posed for the artist appeared to be familiar with all the material, that is strong evidence to support the view it was one author.

You're welcome,

Joe

Guest

Re: ERDNASE

Postby Guest » June 5th, 2007, 4:35 am

re the "crew" mention:

Many of the songs that folks remember were co-written by Bernie Taupin and the guy's name was Reginald Dwight. I was working from a parallel on the "Elton John" - "Erdnase" comparison used in the post just above.

I find the "erdnase" text puzzling yet I don't have enough background to decompile, parse and analyze it to offer the sort of analysis I feel it deserves. No "theory" offered as to its authorship. Perhaps some exploration of its mythic nature but no scholarly discussion intended.

As to folks holding onto a dear ghost via a book that the living man used to hold dear... also a separate subject. A much more interesting subject IMHO as the affected are still with us to discuss the matter but none the less its own topic.

Back to the wits, will and advantage play. :)

Guest

Re: ERDNASE

Postby Guest » June 5th, 2007, 4:55 am

Edwin:

The first entry youve cited was from Harry Prices Short Title Catalogue (1929). While there is much valuable information therein, it is full of mistakes and guesses. Price probably got his info from the source cited by Richard Hatch.

The discussion of Erdnases book in the second link you provided is a good example of someone who (a) bibliographically speaking, doesnt know what theyre talking about and (b) wants to make their library sound really special. I loved this part of the discussion:

There are only two known copies of the second edition (the rarest of all editions). The Surnateum library holds both copies, which differ ever so slightly from each other. ...

The fact that this information can be had on the internet is testimony to the wondrous nature of the world wide web. And proof that what one finds on the internet may lead one astray!

Clay

Guest

Re: ERDNASE

Postby Guest » June 5th, 2007, 5:12 am

There are only two known copies of the second edition (the rarest of all editions). The Surnateum library holds both copies, which differ ever so slightly from each other. ...

The fact that this information can be had on the internet is testimony to the wondrous nature of the world wide web. And proof that what one finds on the internet may lead one astray!
Considering it's a bizarre magic site the story aspect is just fine and seems appropriate. Not a bad entry from a Tlonist perspective.

Guest

Re: ERDNASE

Postby Guest » June 5th, 2007, 6:01 am

J.T.,

Are you the webmaster of that site?

CHS

Guest

Re: ERDNASE

Postby Guest » June 5th, 2007, 6:12 am

The site is a resource for those who know how story/context affects the base trickery in our craft.
Here is some about the folks who contribute content and maintain the place.

I wonder why there's no mention of the pack of cards that came with one of the editions of that book ?

Guest

Re: ERDNASE

Postby Guest » June 5th, 2007, 9:12 am

Anyone who consults Chelman's website, The Museum of Supernatural History,and believes what is written there, please contact me as I have a bridge in Brooklyn for sale at a bargain price.

User avatar
Pete Biro
Posts: 7125
Joined: January 17th, 2008, 12:00 pm
Location: Hollyweird
Contact:

Re: ERDNASE

Postby Pete Biro » June 5th, 2007, 11:19 am

Hey, I bought the Brooklyn Bridge. What gives you the rights to sell something that belongs to me? :D
Stay tooned.

Guest

Re: ERDNASE

Postby Guest » June 5th, 2007, 12:43 pm

Clay et al.:

I see what you mean. Looks like I'd better stick to origami...

Guest

Re: ERDNASE

Postby Guest » June 5th, 2007, 2:06 pm

No, Edwin, explore!

Mine was a cautionary tale re the internet and authoritative-sounding websites. It was in no way intended as a knock or to discourage you.

As with any mystery, IMO the more people who explore and ask questions, the better off we are.

CHS

Guest

Re: ERDNASE

Postby Guest » June 5th, 2007, 3:03 pm

The bibliography thing looked fairly legitimate and did sound like an interesting lead, but as for the Surnateum website I should have looked at that more closely. It's true that you definitely don't get this kind of thing in the world of origami though.

Guest

Re: ERDNASE

Postby Guest » June 5th, 2007, 4:17 pm

Clay wrote:
As with any mystery, IMO the more people who explore and ask questions, the better off we are.
_____________________________________

Generally yes, but with a caveat. Those new to the subject should aquaint themselves with what has been said/written before, not just chime in with some idea or observation that has already been brought up and discusssed previously.

Guest

Re: ERDNASE

Postby Guest » June 5th, 2007, 4:52 pm

David wrote:
Generally yes, but with a caveat. Those new to the subject should aquaint themselves with what has been said/written before, not just chime in with some idea or observation that has already been brought up and discusssed previously.
_____________________________________

David, I agree, but with a caveat. ( :D ) Sometimes those new to the subject can bring a fresh perspective to what the experts perceive to be a "retread" of an idea, and sometimes such a fresh perspective would not have been forthcoming had the newbie read up on the subject in advance of thinking about it.

C.

[added by edit]

P.S. I'm ever the optimist, David!

Guest

Re: ERDNASE

Postby Guest » June 6th, 2007, 1:17 am

David wrote:
Generally yes, but with a caveat. Those new to the subject should aquaint themselves with what has been said/written before, not just chime in with some idea or observation that has already been brought up and discusssed previously.

---------------

I've followed this thread from the beginning and wasn't aware that this particular reference had been discussed previously. A forum search shows one post about the Surnateum in 2005, but nothing to suggest the site might have a reference to Erdnase that had been previously investigated. I just thought it might be something new and interesting.

Guest

Re: ERDNASE

Postby Guest » June 6th, 2007, 7:49 am

Edwin,

I wasn't referencing you in my post. I'm sorry if you read it that way, but I was responding to Clay's idea of "new" observations, not anything posted by you.

David

Guest

Re: ERDNASE

Postby Guest » June 6th, 2007, 9:42 am

Edwin, you've contributed a valuble bit of information to the thread.

Chelman's site is quite well known to magi who focus on the bizzare style, and many will read this bit on his site about the 'only two copies in the world' editions of 'Expert' in his library and believe what they read, even though it's completely false.

Edwin, you've brought to light that there's still a great deal of misinformation and disinformation about various editions of the book out there.

This thread remains the most authoritative source of information on both the author and the book. When taken with David and Richard's Magic and Genii articles (which are absolutely priceless by the way) on Erdnase, you've got THE most accurate information, which you've now added to Edwin!

Guest

Re: ERDNASE

Postby Guest » June 6th, 2007, 11:53 am

Thank you, there will be more coming if my next two lines of inquiry pay off.

Leonard Hevia
Posts: 1911
Joined: January 17th, 2008, 12:00 pm
Favorite Magician: Dai Vernon, Frank Garcia, Slydini, Houdini,
Location: Gaithersburg, Md.

Re: ERDNASE

Postby Leonard Hevia » June 6th, 2007, 4:19 pm

Hi Silverking. Can you tell me the issue of Magic that contains Mr. Hatch's article on Erdnase. I have a complete file of Stan Allen's wonderful magazine--but without an index, it could take some time...

Guest

Re: ERDNASE

Postby Guest » June 6th, 2007, 5:55 pm

Does anyone know the phsycology behind the SW Shift? Why The SW Shift rather than a classic or the longitudinal?

If anyone has any ideas please let me know.

-John

User avatar
Richard Kaufman
Posts: 25172
Joined: July 18th, 2001, 12:00 pm
Favorite Magician: Theodore DeLand
Location: Washington DC
Contact:

Re: ERDNASE

Postby Richard Kaufman » June 6th, 2007, 7:41 pm

I've seen many excellent cardmen do the SWE Shift and it's always obvious that something has happened. Chris Kenner does it very well with an outjogged card helping on the misdirection, and he also moves his hands at the moment the shift occurs.

Howie Scharzman had a nice way of doing it: as a cut to the table. This helps to hide the odd action.
Subscribe today to Genii Magazine

Guest

Re: ERDNASE

Postby Guest » June 6th, 2007, 9:31 pm

I have a complete file of Stan Allen's wonderful magazine--but without an index, it could take some time...
MAGIC's web site has an index, in downloadable form.

Richard Hatch's article on Erdnase is in the Dec 1999 issue.

Guest

Re: ERDNASE

Postby Guest » June 7th, 2007, 9:41 am

Be sure to get David's 'Genii' article as well as Richard's 'Magic' article.
Richard and David have different views on who Erdnase might be, and the true Erdnase fan should defintitely have them both.

I read and re-read both articles often. I would have loved to have been at the LA Convention where both authors gave their talks in the same time period....I'm not on the invite list though.

David has some passages in his article that will give you goose bumps as you see just how important the SWE Shift could really be!

Guest

Re: ERDNASE

Postby Guest » June 7th, 2007, 9:54 am

Thank you for your kind words.

As I gave my paper at the 1999 confernce there were no coughs, rustling of papers, people shifting in their seats or anything of the sort. The room was utterly silent and the audience's attention was almost palpable. It was an interesting experience in a lifetime of doing interesting things.

Although, as was suggested by a friend, it could just have been that the lights were in my eyes and everyone in the audience had simply left and gone to the bar. ;)

Guest

Re: ERDNASE

Postby Guest » June 7th, 2007, 2:54 pm

As I mention David, I get goose bumps just READING the material....I can only imagine how electric it must have been to be sitting at the conference hearing it all for the first time!

David, do you know if yours and Richards presentations might have been recorded and available for purchase?
I've looked for such recordings, but never had luck in finding them.

Guest

Re: ERDNASE

Postby Guest » June 7th, 2007, 8:50 pm

To the best of my knowledge there are no publicly available tapes from the conference for sale.

User avatar
Richard Kaufman
Posts: 25172
Joined: July 18th, 2001, 12:00 pm
Favorite Magician: Theodore DeLand
Location: Washington DC
Contact:

Re: ERDNASE

Postby Richard Kaufman » June 7th, 2007, 9:19 pm

No tapes of any Conference event have ever been sold. The only time a tape has been released was the DVD of "Palengenisia" included with last September's (October's?) issue of Genii
Subscribe today to Genii Magazine

Roger M.
Posts: 1427
Joined: January 17th, 2008, 12:00 pm

Re: ERDNASE

Postby Roger M. » August 13th, 2007, 11:10 am

The rather scarce 'S.W.Erdnase:Another View' by Thomas Sawyer is for sale on Ebay.

It doesn't come up for sale that often, this is the second one I've seen in a couple of years.
This is the revised and enlarged version.

I've got a copy, but if anybodies looking for one, here's a tiny link to Ebay:

http://www.tiny.cc/sO0HK


Return to “General”