ERDNASE

Discuss general aspects of Genii.
Kevin Baker
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Re: ERDNASE

Postby Kevin Baker » February 3rd, 2007, 9:22 am

Thanks Richard. It appears this book has become far more desirable and valuable in the recent past.

Regards,

Kevin

Guest

Re: ERDNASE

Postby Guest » February 22nd, 2007, 9:50 am

All I have been able to glean from Richard Hatch's research is this:

While some people, such as John Fisher and the people at Bloomsbury's, believe that Edward S. Andrews was the "real" S.W. Erdnase, others believe that Edwin S. Andrews is a much more viable candiate.

In other words, to paraphrase an answer given on an examination by an elementary school student,
S.W. Erdnase was not E.S. Andrews, but another person of the same name.

Guest

Re: ERDNASE

Postby Guest » February 22nd, 2007, 11:44 pm

Please, I am very much apologize.
I have questions on book of Erdnase, but I do not know where I can ask it. The problem, my questions can be not clever. This is not history of subject. Probably this is my bad understanding of English. If somebody know another place on this Forum where I can ask such questions, I will be happy to move post. But I suppose some of questions can be solved many years before by group of peoples who interesting this book?

On LEGERDEMAIN section, on chapter SHIFTS and paragraph "The S.W.E. Shift" we can read:

"With the deck face up it makes an instantaneous "transformation," and the position of the deck permits the operator to get a glimpse of the index without being observed."

Please, what it means? I understand first part. I understand second part. But I do not understand ",". If parts connected should be "glimpse with the deck face up". Or second part should be like "and, when the deck still face down, the position of the deck permits the operator to get a glimpse of the index without being observed."

On same place but "The Longitudinal Shift":

Now the deck is ready for the shift, but the right hand may be withdrawn without disclosing the break at the inner corner, or the fact that the little finger runs between the packets. The left thumb and finger hold the packets firmly together and the deck could not have a more innocent appearance.

Which "finger" means on second sentence? Little finger from first sentence or this is just typo and should be "fingers"? For me this is important because on my language "little finger" only one word and this is not finger (like thumb on English).

Please, I am apologize for strange questions.

Guest

Re: ERDNASE

Postby Guest » March 1st, 2007, 9:29 am

NB: The Bloomsbury auction of John Fisher items has just added a notice stating that the copy of Erdnase in their first lot (with the very scarce Graham Adams manuscript on Erdnase) is NOT a first edition, though they don't specify further which edition. Obviously this makes a huge difference in the value of this lot. I'm hoping to get more information, but it may be too late to post before the sale actually ends. Here's a link:
Erdnase lot in John Fisher Auction

Guest

Re: ERDNASE

Postby Guest » March 1st, 2007, 5:43 pm

So what eventually happened, I must admit I had no idea what was going on with that auction software.
It appears as if somebody got it for a couple of hundred bucks, although that doesn't make sense because each item in the lot was worth more than that.
Anybody?

Guest

Re: ERDNASE

Postby Guest » March 1st, 2007, 6:48 pm

I couldn't get the live auction to work like it normally does (truly live). I didn't even notice the second part of the auction - the non-first edition copy of EATCT. If I had seen that, I may have bid on that item... not bad for ~$250.

Guest

Re: ERDNASE

Postby Guest » March 1st, 2007, 7:19 pm

Even if it was the Drake plum or blue cover, it was certainly worth more than a couple of hundred dollars.
I don't think anybody even got a bid in. It started off a few days ago with a "1" beside the number of bidders, and finished up with the same "1" beside the number of bidders.

Potentially two of the three items could have been worth $500.00 (or much, much more!) each.
I tried to bid and couldn't get the "bid" button to become active at any time before, during, or after the auction!

Guest

Re: ERDNASE

Postby Guest » March 2nd, 2007, 2:02 am

It was a 1905 Drake hardback with an Olive Green cover, as far as I could tell from the description given to me over the phone by the auction house staff if was not the pictoral cover. I was the second highest bidder at 3200. I would have gone higher if it was that first edition...

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Marco Pusterla
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Re: ERDNASE

Postby Marco Pusterla » March 2nd, 2007, 5:34 am

Lot one sold for 3,400 + 19% premium to a floor bidder. I left the auction towards the end (other 50 or so lots still to go) and that was the highest price any lot went for.
Marco Pusterla - http://www.mpmagic.com

Ye Olde Magic Mag: magic history and collecting magazine.

Guest

Re: ERDNASE

Postby Guest » March 2nd, 2007, 6:00 am

Yep, I was the phone bidder who stopped at 3200 :)

Guest

Re: ERDNASE

Postby Guest » March 2nd, 2007, 7:14 am

...and beaten only by the Robert-Houdin mystery clock which went for a snip at 4,600.

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Marco Pusterla
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Re: ERDNASE

Postby Marco Pusterla » March 2nd, 2007, 7:15 am

:) Your bidding made the lot a lot more interesting (pun intended ;) ). Including the buyer's premium, the lot went for more than $7,800... not bad...
Marco Pusterla - http://www.mpmagic.com

Ye Olde Magic Mag: magic history and collecting magazine.

Guest

Re: ERDNASE

Postby Guest » March 2nd, 2007, 7:31 am

I know :) If I wasn't bidding, the guy who won it would have got it for a lot less :) I didn't find out it wasn't a first edition until the auctioneer called me five minutes before the auction began, so I didn't really have much time to plan my max bid amount :)

Guest

Re: ERDNASE

Postby Guest » March 2nd, 2007, 8:11 am

I just recieved an email from the auction house giving me the confirmation to bid (to late though).

I was so upset that I couldn't bid, because I thought the lot went for $280!

I thought, man, what a steal!

They emailed me to let me know it sold for much MUCH more then that, and was way out of my price range. Whew. Now I'm not so sad I missed the chance.

Guest

Re: ERDNASE

Postby Guest » March 2nd, 2007, 10:01 am

So I wonder what the value of the Drake edition was, exclusive of the other two Erdnase lots?
The Sawyer book is worth about $130.00 (or at least it was a few months ago when I got mine), so that means the Drake edition and the S.W. Adams books comprise the rest of the over $7000.00!

With only 6 copies of the Adams book out there (although I think there were two more kept by the author) how does that $7000.00 break down between the two books?

I'm trying to figure out not only what the Adams book was worth individually, but also what the Drake edition was worth individually.

Does anybody know if the "Dai Vernon" inscription on the Drake edition was Vernon's actual signature, or just the result of somebody making a written reference to Vernon?

Guest

Re: ERDNASE

Postby Guest » March 2nd, 2007, 10:08 am

It was Vernon's signature, and he also wrote (in brackets) 'Apologies' directly underneath Erdnase's name on the title-page.

My guess is that the larger part of the deal was because of the Adams' notes (as far as I know it isn't even available as a facsimile, like the other '6 copies only' Erdnase book) and the Vernon signature.

Guest

Re: ERDNASE

Postby Guest » March 2nd, 2007, 10:16 am

Do we know if the purchaser was a floor bidder (who had a chance to inspect the lot) or an absentee bidder, who likely did not know exactly what was included? The information that the copy of Erdnase was not the first edition was posted very late and may have been a factor. The Adams title was clearly perceived by the auction house as being the chief item of interest (and presumably value) in the lot, since it was the only one prominently featured in the lot title and description. I have been told that the Vernon name was written in capitol letters on the title page, though it may have been his characteristic signature, which would have added interest and value to this copy. Although many of the Drake hardbacks are harder to find than the true first edition, they do not currently command the same interest for most collectors or fetch the high prices. But it is very hard to parse the relative values of this lot, or any such lot, unfortunately. And what was included among the tantalizing "other material relating to the identity of Erdnase, the Andrews murder investigation, and his death"? Can someone who was at the sale enlighten us?

Guest

Re: ERDNASE

Postby Guest » March 2nd, 2007, 10:20 am

The guy who won the lot was a floor bidder. I didn't get a chance to inspect the lot as I live miles from London and bid by phone. However, the auctioneer asked permission to publish my name if I won the auction, so - if the winner granted his permission - someone (Dick :) ) might be able to quiz him about what was included in the lot exactly .

Guest

Re: ERDNASE

Postby Guest » March 2nd, 2007, 10:27 am

Thanks, Will!

Guest

Re: ERDNASE

Postby Guest » March 2nd, 2007, 10:59 am

I am told that Bill Kalush won the Erdnase lot.

Guest

Re: ERDNASE

Postby Guest » March 2nd, 2007, 11:25 am

If it was Bill, he must have been after the Adams material because he already owns quite a few first editions of "Expert"!

Guest

Re: ERDNASE

Postby Guest » March 2nd, 2007, 11:46 am

Hmmm... The Conjuring Arts Research Center already owns Jay Marshall's copy of the Graham Adams' manuscript (inscribed to Bill by Jay on 10/14/94), so I would be surprised if he spent that kind of money for a second copy...

Guest

Re: ERDNASE

Postby Guest » March 2nd, 2007, 1:06 pm

I've been reliably informed by someone at the auction that Bill Kalush was bidding on this lot, but dropped out at about 2,000 and that the winning bidder is a card enthusiast who works in the financial markets in Hong Kong.

Guest

Re: ERDNASE

Postby Guest » March 7th, 2007, 3:23 am

Just found a very rare edition of Erdnase on Ebay, currently priced at next to nothing:

Item Number 140093332172

Erdnase - Fireside Edition

According to the Busby book the stock was recalled and destroyed after it was published, hence very hard to find.

Ian Kendall
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Re: ERDNASE

Postby Ian Kendall » March 7th, 2007, 3:54 am

I met with Gordon Bruce on Monday who said he dropped out at 1900. The amusing thing was his description of the Adams books as 'terrible' but there are only six copies...

Take care, Ian

Jason England
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Re: ERDNASE

Postby Jason England » March 10th, 2007, 3:02 am

Heres something interesting regarding The Expert At the Card Table by S. W. Erdnase (at least to me).

I was reading the 1933 gambling classic Cheating at Bridge by Judson J. Cameron when I ran across these statistically improbable sections of matching (or near-matching) text.


CAB p. 7: It is quite generally known that much deception of various kinds is practiced in card games.

EATCT p. 13: Of course it is generally known that much deception is practiced at cards.


CAB p. 7: There is a vast difference between the hocus pocus and the accompanying talk and unnatural gestures of the card magician, as used in mystifying or amusing his audience, and the practices of the expert card sharper in his pursuit of ready money at the card table.

EATCT p. 11: There is a vast difference between the methods employed by the card conjurer in mystifying or amusing his audience; and those practiced at the card table by the professional.


CAB p. 7: To acquire a perfect understanding of the maneuvers used by the professional card sharper and the exact manner in which they are executed requires considerable study and a lot of practice; therefore the reader who desires a thorough knowledge of the tricks that can be used against him should take a pack of cards in hand and work out each maneuver as it is described until he thinks he could recognize it being used in a card game.

EATCT p. 11-12: But a perfect understanding of the risks that are taken may aid greatly in lessening the casualtiesand the reader desiring a complete understanding should take the deck in hand and work out for himself the action as it is described.


CAB p. 7: The object of this work is not to make the innocent player a vicious one, nor to transform the pasttime-player into a professional; not to enlighten the naturally crafty, who have the disposition to cheat but not the skill, but it is brought forth wholly for the purpose of engendering caution in the unwary and trustful, and it is hoped that it will demonstrate to the novice that he cant beat others at their own game.

EATCT Preface: It may caution the unwary who are innocent of guile, and it may inspire the crafty by enlightenment on artifice. It may demonstrate to the tyro that he cannot beat a man at his own game, and it may enable the skilled in deception to take a post-graduate course in the highest and most artistic branches of his vocation. But it will not make the innocent vicious, or transform the pastime player into a professional; or make the fool wise, or curtail the annual crop of suckers.


CAB p. 14: A long experience has convinced the author that, whenever the stakes are considerable, there is always someone in the game who is looking for the best of it, and they invariably find it.

EATCT p. 10: A varied experience has impressed us with the belief that all men who play for any considerable stakes are looking for the best of it.


CAB p. 14: In speaking of professional gamblers or expert manipulators, the author does not refer to proprietors or captains of gambling houses.

EATCT p. 11: When we speak of professional card players we do not refer to the proprietors or managers of gaming houses.


CAB p. 19: Were all players dependent on luck, the result of their scores would be about the same in the end.

EATCT p. 9: Were all gamblers to depend on luck they would break about even in the end.


CAB p. 19: The vagaries of luck or chance do not enter into his consideration, since successful manipulation is more profitable than mere speculation.

EATCT p. 9: However, the vagaries of luck, or chance, have impressed the professional card player with a certain knowledge that his more respected brother of the stock exchange possesses, viz.--manipulation is more profitable than speculation.


CAB p. 20: Having become a past master in his chosen profession, he can laugh at Lady Luck and defy the laws of chance, because his fortune is at his fingers ends, varying only with his skill and the fatness of the losers purses.

EATCT p. 23: He has become a past master in his profession. He can laugh at luck and defy the law of chance. His fortune is literally at his finger ends.


CAB p. 22: The deportment of the successful gambler is usually as finished as his skill in manipulating the cards; his sangfroid is proverbial, for without it the ability to control the cards would be nearly worthless. He is quiet, unostentatious, gentlemanly and reserved, and expresses no emotion over either gains or losses.

EATCT p. 22: The deportment of the successful card player must be as finished as his skill. A quiet, unostentatious demeanor and gentlemanly reserve are best calculated to answer his purpose. Especially the entire suppression of emotion over gains or losses, Without ability to control his feelings the "advantage player" is without advantage.


CAB p. 23: He is careful to observe uniformity of action at all times, and it is an inviolable rule that there be no departure from his customary method of performing each artifice attempted, particularly in the manner of holding, shuffling, cutting, or dealing the cards, and also in the necessary conversation in carrying on the auction.

EATCT p. 22: The inviolable rule of the professional is uniformity of action. Any departure from his customary manner of holding, shuffling, cutting or dealing the cards may be noticed, and is consequently avoided.


CAB p. 26: Skill alone in handling the cards does not of itself always insure success.

EATCT p. 22: Ability in card handling does not necessarily insure success.


CAB p. 26: The expert manipulator considers nothing too trivial which might in any manner contribute to his success, either in avoiding or allaying suspicion, in the intricate manner of carrying out each detail, or in leading up to and executing any maneuver; for should he possess excessive vanity, the temptation to show off or give exhibitions to supposed friends is very great, and likely to trip him up.

EATCT p. 25: The finished card expert considers nothing too trivial that in any way contributes to his success, whether in avoiding or allaying suspicion, or in the particular manner of carrying out each detail; or in leading up to, or executing, each artifice.

See also in EATCT p. 23: Excessive vanity proves the undoing of many experts. The temptation to show off is great.


CAB p. 26: Althougth a skillful manipulator may be suspected, detection in any particular artifice is almost impossible, and in most cases absolute proof of the act is wholly wanting.

EATCT p. 24: But though under certain circumstances a past-master at the card table may be suspected, detection in any particular artifice is almost impossible, and proof of the act is wholly wanting.


CAB p. 27: A perfect understanding of the advantages taken by the majority of experts should greatly aid in lessoning ones losses.

EATCT p. 11: But a perfect understanding of the risks that are taken may aid greatly in lessening the casualties.


CAB p. 63: The cut has always been the bte-noir of the cheater, and it always will bewere it not for the formality of the cut he would have everything his own way.

EATCT p. 109: The greatest obstacle in the path of the lone player is the cut. It is the bet noir of his existence. Were it not for this formality his deal would mean the money.


CAB p. 87: If an expert were asked what single artifice gives the greatest advantage, he would unhesitatingly decide in favor of second dealing.

EATCT p. 23: If requested to determine from what single artifice the greatest advantage is derived we would unhesitatingly decide in favor of bottom dealing.


Ive no doubt that there are many other similarites to be found in Mr. Camerons work, but those are the ones I ran across in about an hours worth of browsing. Aside from the few instances mentioned in The Annotated Erdnase regarding Frank Garcia, does anyone else know of this sort of flagrant plagiarism of Erdnase?

Jason

Guest

Re: ERDNASE

Postby Guest » March 10th, 2007, 4:45 am

Jason, if somebody has access to plagiarism detecting software (similar to what turnitin.com offers) one could feed into it the electronic versions of the most important works of cheating at games & gambling. This should give you a fairly complete overview of who swipped from whom.

Best,
Chris....
www.lybrary.com

Larry Horowitz
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Location: L.A.

Re: ERDNASE

Postby Larry Horowitz » March 10th, 2007, 10:39 am

Of course now the question must be asked.....

Could Judson J.Cameron be plagerizing himself?

Guest

Re: ERDNASE

Postby Guest » March 10th, 2007, 3:24 pm

Marshall D. Smith related to Martin Gardner that Erdnase was about 40, and not over 45 when they met in the Chicago hotel room to begin the drawings for Expert.

If the bridge book was written in 1933, and they were authored by the same person, that person would be about 70 to 75 when he wrote the bridge book.

All that's needed to answer your question is to know how old Judson J.Cameron was when he wrote the bridge book.
Doing a simple search for that information, I don't find anything, but I'm sure somebody will know more about Judson and how old he might have been in 1933 when the bridge book was published.

Guest

Re: ERDNASE

Postby Guest » March 10th, 2007, 4:29 pm

Cheating at Bridge was published by Dorrance & Co., a subsidy publisher (aka a vanity press) still operating out of Pittsburgh, PA (CAB was published in Philadelphia). Perhaps they still have records relating to this book?

Neither the catalog of the Library of Congress nor the online master card catalog WorldCAT shows any other books written by Judson J. Cameron or Judson Cameron. Searches of several online subscription newspaper archives don't yield anything useful either.

CAB has a 1933 Dorrance edition, and a 1973 Gambler's Book Club edition (which may be evidence that the copyright was never renewed). The Copyright Office's online search capability is offline over the weekend -- the copyright record might give something interesting about the author (was J.J. Cameron a pseudonym?)

There are several Judson Camerons in the Ancestry.com index of Censuses that go through 1930, but none of them indicate that they are the author of the book in question.

Guest

Re: ERDNASE

Postby Guest » March 10th, 2007, 4:52 pm

Dorrance also published Thurston's "autobiography"

Guest

Re: ERDNASE

Postby Guest » March 10th, 2007, 10:24 pm

Since Erdnase self-published ECATCT, why would he turn to a vanity press to publish another book 30+ years later?

Sounds to me that Judson J. Cameron found material that he liked in Expert and helped himself. Certainly not the first time that's happened, but common enough with amateur writers.

Regardless, that's a nice bit of research, Jason.

Guest

Re: ERDNASE

Postby Guest » March 11th, 2007, 7:51 am

While I agree with David, that this is probably just somebody copying from a prior work with related material, the argument that "30 years ago he self-published why would he use a vanity press later" is very weak. 30 years is a long time where circumstances can dramatically change.

Best,
Chris....

Guest

Re: ERDNASE

Postby Guest » March 11th, 2007, 8:06 am

Bill,

I checked the copyright renewal records and there is no renewal for "Cheating at Bridge" or any J. Cameron. One could lookup the original copyright registration record in 1933 for further info.

Best,
Chris....

Guest

Re: ERDNASE

Postby Guest » March 11th, 2007, 9:52 am

Anyone who uses a vanity publisher is someone who doesn't know anything about publishing or someone who has had their manuscript turned down by regular publishers and has more ego and money than common sense which should tell them to revise their work.

Vanity "publishers" regularly charge huge sums to print crap. They have little respect within the industry because most in publishing and book selling know who they are and pay scant attention to books published by them.

There is one small but supposedly "regular" publisher who has charged several authors $30,000 each for their books to be published. When that news leaked out, their standing in the publishing community dropped.

One vanity press hustle is to charge for printing and binding but to only bind 100 copies, keeping the rest of the printed matter "in storage." Experience has shown them that the typical vanity press author will only ever want 100 copies or so. After a few years of paying "storage fees" they usually agree to have the remaing "books" pulped...at a fee, of course.

Larry Horowitz
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Re: ERDNASE

Postby Larry Horowitz » March 11th, 2007, 11:02 am

Just to throw more wood on the fire,

When the book was published and when it was written are not always the same.

How were vanity printers of 1930 different then today?

Guest

Re: ERDNASE

Postby Guest » March 11th, 2007, 1:25 pm

A clarification if I may, Larry.

Vanity presses hold themselves out to be publishers, not simply book manufacturers. There are any number of companies around the world who are in business to produce books. When I owned a small publishing company I used several as do most publishers who do not own their own printing plants.

Vanity presses hold themselves out to be publishers and prey on the ignorant and naive. The cost of producing a book through a vanity press and through a normal book manufacturer is far different.

There is a huge difference between a vanity press book and something self-published. Expert was self-published and did not come from a vanity press.

As best I understand it, the vanity presses of those days and the vanity presses of today operate with the same hustle.

Guest

Re: ERDNASE

Postby Guest » March 21st, 2007, 8:36 am

I am so apologize. I steel search inside Erdnase.

I am interesting on "Transformations. Two hands." May be somebody know where was first published Third Method?

Also about Fifth Method. On "Magician's Tricks" by Hatton written that Felicien Trewey was inventor of Colour Change, and on "Expert Card Tecniques" that he invent just this Fifth Method. Who know more deep sources about this subject? May be first book where Trewey invent Colour Change? May be article on magazine? How Lumier's movie "Partie dcart" 1895 with Trewey connected with this subject?

Guest

Re: ERDNASE

Postby Guest » March 21st, 2007, 10:41 am

...where was first published Third Method?
The third method Erdnase change? I'm pretty sure that was published in Erdnase...

Guest

Re: ERDNASE

Postby Guest » March 21st, 2007, 1:21 pm

If it be so - he wrote it. But he wrote only about Forth Method "The improvement is our own". If we understand that Forth Method is only Third Method with first and little fingers on ends, we realize Third Method was usualy invented before. The difference between Third and Forth so little, that should be only one method with notes, and "made" extra method can only man who WANT INFORM ABOUT HIS INOVATION!


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