ERDNASE

Discuss general aspects of Genii.
Geno Munari
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Re: ERDNASE

Postby Geno Munari » August 29th, 2011, 6:09 pm

Correct, but this step is necessary so we can verify if he did sign the document.

Roger M.
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Re: ERDNASE

Postby Roger M. » August 29th, 2011, 6:16 pm

The Erdnasium Edition still shows up (in Canada) as "Not Currently Available".

And still says "pricing information not available".

Must be me, although I'm on the other side of town from whence I first tried, at work, on a PC rather than a Mac, and have tried signed into Amazon, and signed out of Amazon.

........or maybe Amazon.com knows not of what they speak.

Larry Horowitz
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Re: ERDNASE

Postby Larry Horowitz » August 30th, 2011, 2:07 am

Richard,

Although your statement is accurate; "Since no one knows who filled out the copyright application (it doesn't necessarily have to be the person who owns it), the handwriting doesn't necessarily have to match".

Another person filling out the application would imply the author DID NOT keep his secret. Thus putting into question the whole point of the mystery. Of course we come back to why not just sign the book anonymous.

Rick Ruhl
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Re: ERDNASE

Postby Rick Ruhl » August 30th, 2011, 7:24 am

But if the handwriting does match....

We have another clue... :)

Rick Ruhl
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Re: ERDNASE

Postby Rick Ruhl » August 30th, 2011, 10:24 am

What happend in Montana this weekend? Did Marty and all of the gatherers take a time machine back to 1901 Chicago?

Richard Hatch
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Re: ERDNASE

Postby Richard Hatch » August 30th, 2011, 11:07 am

Rick Ruhl wrote:What happend in Montana this weekend? Did Marty and all of the gatherers take a time machine back to 1901 Chicago?
A very impressive turnout: R. Paul Wilson from Scotland, Jason England and Geno Munari from Las Vegas, Derek DelGaudio, Michael Weber, Dan and Dave Buck from Las Angeles, Eric Mead from Aspen, Ricky Smith and Bill Kalush from CARC, Bill Mullins from Alabama and others. Some great discussions that moved the conversation forward. A good time was had by all. Thanks to Marty Demarest and Mike Vance for organizing a most memorable event! I'd say more, but I don't want to betray any confidences...

Richard Hatch
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Re: ERDNASE

Postby Richard Hatch » August 30th, 2011, 11:38 am

... and Jim Steinmeyer from Los Angeles was there...

Rick Ruhl
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Re: ERDNASE

Postby Rick Ruhl » August 30th, 2011, 12:22 pm

Richard Hatch wrote:... and Jim Steinmeyer from Los Angeles was there...


This is right up Jim's alley too.

El Harvey Oswald
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Re: ERDNASE

Postby El Harvey Oswald » August 30th, 2011, 3:55 pm

"Really, this is as lame as it gets.

Trying to cash in on the very recent swelling of interest in Erdnase by having "who" pretend to be Erdnase?

What on earth could ever be posted either as a question, or as an answer that would even be of any interest whatsoever to anybody?"


agree completely; it's a silly conceit

Richard Hatch
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Re: ERDNASE

Postby Richard Hatch » August 30th, 2011, 8:05 pm

Gotta say that I have found some of "Erdnase's" comments on the green site both insightful and funny. Whoever is doing it has a good sense of humor and an ability to sound more like Erdnase than some of the current candidates.

Curtis Kam
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Re: ERDNASE

Postby Curtis Kam » August 30th, 2011, 10:18 pm

And come on, there's a discussion going on between Erdnase and Wesley James. That alone is worth a peek.

Jonathan Townsend
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Re: ERDNASE

Postby Jonathan Townsend » August 30th, 2011, 10:48 pm

It's like reading a magician's version of Umberto Eco's story Foucalt's Pendulum.

Carlo Morpurgo
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Re: ERDNASE

Postby Carlo Morpurgo » August 30th, 2011, 11:16 pm

Richard Hatch wrote:I'd say more, but I don't want to betray any confidences...


this comment, combined with this sudden "silence" after the big hype, reminds me of a similar situation that happened about 4 years ago.....

Bill Mullins
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Re: ERDNASE

Postby Bill Mullins » August 31st, 2011, 12:33 am

Here's what happened.

Friday, we talked about Erdnase, then ate cake.

Saturday morning, we talked about Erdnase. Then ate lunch.

Saturday afternoon, we talked about Erdnase some more, then ate supper (burgers). Then we talked about Erdnase.

Sunday morning, those who were still in the area met at the Sanders B&B for breakfast, during which we talked about Erdnase.

I'm not speaking for everyone here, but your average Erdnasian could aford to lose 10-20 lbs.

Magic Fred
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Re: ERDNASE

Postby Magic Fred » August 31st, 2011, 3:04 am

Curtis Kam wrote:And come on, there's a discussion going on between Erdnase and Wesley James. That alone is worth a peek.


Wesley James comes across as the type of fellow who is never actually seeking an answer when he asks a question...

In reality, that's one "discussion" which wouldn't last long.

Rick Ruhl
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Re: ERDNASE

Postby Rick Ruhl » August 31st, 2011, 6:25 am

Bill Mullins wrote:Here's what happened.

Friday, we talked about Erdnase, then ate cake.

Saturday morning, we talked about Erdnase. Then ate lunch.

Saturday afternoon, we talked about Erdnase some more, then ate supper (burgers). Then we talked about Erdnase.

Sunday morning, those who were still in the area met at the Sanders B&B for breakfast, during which we talked about Erdnase.

I'm not speaking for everyone here, but your average Erdnasian could aford to lose 10-20 lbs.


Thank you my friend... now I know I missed a good time ;)

Marty Demarest
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Re: ERDNASE

Postby Marty Demarest » August 31st, 2011, 9:17 am

I had a wonderful time at Erdnaseum! Aside from all the Erdnase and food (both of which I have a healthy appetite for), I really devoured R. Paul Wilson's discussion about the viability of Erdnase's cheating techniques, and Jason England's examination of Erdnase's passes. Erdnase invented five passes--and we're still talking about them more than a century later--a great perspective on the author's genius.

Also of note: Viewing Jason's collection of Expert at the Card Table editions, and getting an online research overview from Bill Mullins. It was fun.

Rick Ruhl
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Re: ERDNASE

Postby Rick Ruhl » August 31st, 2011, 9:17 am

Carlo Morpurgo wrote:
Richard Hatch wrote:I'd say more, but I don't want to betray any confidences...


this comment, combined with this sudden "silence" after the big hype, reminds me of a similar situation that happened about 4 years ago.....


Which was?

Carlo Morpurgo
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Re: ERDNASE

Postby Carlo Morpurgo » August 31st, 2011, 7:45 pm

Rick Ruhl wrote:Which was?


I was half joking...but was referring to the aftermath of the Hooker Card Rise performances, in 2007....

Steve Brooks
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Re: ERDNASE

Postby Steve Brooks » August 31st, 2011, 10:15 pm

Not that it matters in the scheme of things, but the visit by S.W.ERDNASE at the green place has been in the works for at least three years and has nothing whatsoever to do with the so-called recent interest in the man or his work.

Thank you.

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Richard Kaufman
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Re: ERDNASE

Postby Richard Kaufman » August 31st, 2011, 10:25 pm

"So-called recent interest"?

It's called a resurgence of interest based upon information that gives good cause to believe the identity of Erdnase has been uncovered.
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Steve Brooks
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Re: ERDNASE

Postby Steve Brooks » August 31st, 2011, 11:34 pm

I apologize Richard if my post appeared a bit sarcastic. I imagine my tone had something to do with people assuming my guest this week was done because of all the recent Erdnase discussions...that would be further from the truth.

Brad Henderson
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Re: ERDNASE

Postby Brad Henderson » September 1st, 2011, 1:19 am

Hey Steve, what's with shaking someone's hand, praising them for being willing to hold strong opinions - like yourself, and then banning them without explanation the next day? Sent you an email requesting the courtesy of an explanation. Your behavior strikes me as cowardly and hypocritical. I would have expected better from you. Perhaps I will finally get that reply. You have my email in your inbox.

Magic Fred
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Re: ERDNASE

Postby Magic Fred » September 1st, 2011, 2:37 am

Is this going to turn into a "why was I banned from the magic cage?"

Me too! Me too! Why was I banned?!

Rick Ruhl
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Re: ERDNASE

Postby Rick Ruhl » September 1st, 2011, 7:21 am

Steve Brooks wrote:I apologize Richard if my post appeared a bit sarcastic. I imagine my tone had something to do with people assuming my guest this week was done because of all the recent Erdnase discussions...that would be further from the truth.


But so what if it was, it's a great idea and hits at the right time. It's good marketing.

Both you and Richard have a tough enough job running the boards, much less the other stuff.

Erdnase is hot, strike while the kettle is hot.

Carlo Morpurgo
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Re: ERDNASE

Postby Carlo Morpurgo » September 1st, 2011, 8:28 am

It's speculated that WE Sanders held a "double life", part of which was concerned with the perfecting of card sharp techniques, and gambling. If it's true that he rightly wanted to hide this part of his life, then it seems reasonable to me that one should look at what *other people* had to say about WE Sanders, other than the man himself, starting from his own father (whose diaries seem to be available).

One would look for signs indicating suspicions of his putative double life, or even better, comments about his dexterity with cards, time spent with a deck of cards in his hands etc.

Chris Aguilar
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Re: ERDNASE

Postby Chris Aguilar » September 1st, 2011, 11:31 am

Carlo Morpurgo wrote:then it seems reasonable to me that one should look at what *other people* had to say about WE Sanders, other than the man himself, starting from his own father (whose diaries seem to be available).

In his article, Marty D. does some of that by using Sander's letters from his brothers.

Carlo Morpurgo
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Re: ERDNASE

Postby Carlo Morpurgo » September 1st, 2011, 1:46 pm

Chris Aguilar wrote:
Carlo Morpurgo wrote:then it seems reasonable to me that one should look at what *other people* had to say about WE Sanders, other than the man himself, starting from his own father (whose diaries seem to be available).

In his article, Marty D. does some of that by using Sander's letters from his brothers.



Yes, but my point is to check documents that were NOT in W.E. Sanders possession...thereby eliminating the possibility of their destruction (in case they contained "revealing details" or something controversial)

Brad Henderson
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Re: ERDNASE

Postby Brad Henderson » September 1st, 2011, 2:22 pm

Some people won't do the right thing unless pressured in front of their peers, apparently. Having said that, I do not want this thread to derail. Hopefully Brooks will reply to my email as per my request. Or perhaps he is not nearly the strongly opinionated independent man he wants so badly to believe he is.

Back to erdnase - sorry for the digression.

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Richard Kaufman
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Re: ERDNASE

Postby Richard Kaufman » September 1st, 2011, 2:44 pm

Brooks let the threads on The Berglas Effects go right into the dumper because of Mark Lewis--he did nothing to stop it, nor did he go back and clean them up. The mods just closed them.

Anyway, yes, BACK TO ERDNASE.
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Chris Aguilar
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Re: ERDNASE

Postby Chris Aguilar » September 1st, 2011, 2:54 pm

Carlo Morpurgo wrote:
Chris Aguilar wrote:
Carlo Morpurgo wrote:then it seems reasonable to me that one should look at what *other people* had to say about WE Sanders, other than the man himself, starting from his own father (whose diaries seem to be available).

In his article, Marty D. does some of that by using Sander's letters from his brothers.



Yes, but my point is to check documents that were NOT in W.E. Sanders possession...thereby eliminating the possibility of their destruction (in case they contained "revealing details" or something controversial)


I would think that Sanders father would be the one he'd most want to hide any dodgy behavior from. As such, I doubt his fathers papers would shed much light. No harm in checking though.

Carlo Morpurgo
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Re: ERDNASE

Postby Carlo Morpurgo » September 1st, 2011, 4:09 pm

Chris Aguilar wrote:
Carlo Morpurgo wrote:
Chris Aguilar wrote:
Carlo Morpurgo wrote:then it seems reasonable to me that one should look at what *other people* had to say about WE Sanders, other than the man himself, starting from his own father (whose diaries seem to be available).

In his article, Marty D. does some of that by using Sander's letters from his brothers.



Yes, but my point is to check documents that were NOT in W.E. Sanders possession...thereby eliminating the possibility of their destruction (in case they contained "revealing details" or something controversial)


I would think that Sanders father would be the one he'd most want to hide any dodgy behavior from. As such, I doubt his fathers papers would shed much light. No harm in checking though.


I do not consider having or showing dexterity with cards in itself to be a dodgy behavior, especially if related (apparently perhaps) to magic -- you out of all people should agree with this... ;). It is more of a revealing detail, to us, after knowing about EATC.

I guess that the "W.E.S theory" requires us to buy into the idea that Sanders was cultivating his passion for card techniques, at that very sophisticated level of details, without ever being seen around or in his room fooling around with cards.

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Re: ERDNASE

Postby Chris Aguilar » September 1st, 2011, 4:50 pm

Carlo Morpurgo wrote:I guess that the "W.E.S theory" requires us to buy into the idea that Sanders was cultivating his passion for card techniques, at that very sophisticated level of details, without ever being seen around or in his room fooling around with cards.

Who knows how much "alone time" he had in his various travels or work learning the mining business?

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Richard Kaufman
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Re: ERDNASE

Postby Richard Kaufman » September 1st, 2011, 4:53 pm

"I guess that the 'W.E.S theory' requires us to buy into the idea that Sanders was cultivating his passion for card techniques, at that very sophisticated level of details, without ever being seen around or in his room fooling around with cards."

This is incorrect.

There is no reason to assume that Wilbur Fisk Sanders would have found it compulsive to write about his son's hobby of doing magic tricks with cards in his diaries--it's trivial, and perhaps even more so to a crusading do-gooder and senator with more important things on his mind. Just because the father doesn't write about it, doesn't mean his son didn't do it.
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Re: ERDNASE

Postby Carlo Morpurgo » September 1st, 2011, 5:34 pm

Richard Kaufman wrote:"I guess that the 'W.E.S theory' requires us to buy into the idea that Sanders was cultivating his passion for card techniques, at that very sophisticated level of details, without ever being seen around or in his room fooling around with cards."

This is incorrect.

There is no reason to assume that Wilbur Fisk Sanders would have found it compulsive to write about his son's hobby of doing magic tricks with cards in his diaries--it's trivial, and perhaps even more so to a crusading do-gooder and senator with more important things on his mind. Just because the father doesn't write about it, doesn't mean his son didn't do it.


True, if his hobby was magic with cards that does not mean that his father diaries must contain this information. I have no clue as to what WFS's diaries are about. But usually diaries have stuff in them that reveal more intimate details about one's private life.

Anyway, we do not know yet that the father did not write about it (or do we?) If he wrote about it ....that would be great! If he didn't, well, it depends on what else he's written, especially about his son, I guess.

Pete McCabe
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Re: ERDNASE

Postby Pete McCabe » September 1st, 2011, 6:03 pm

It's also possible that Sanders' father did know about his son's penchant for cheating techniques, and that a very loud conversation about the value of the family name may be the reason Expert was published anonymously.

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Re: ERDNASE

Postby Bob Coyne » September 1st, 2011, 9:46 pm

It would be great to learn what, if anything, Sanders' father or anyone else, for that matter, wrote about him. It really doesn't have to be about cards or magic to be useful. Any information about his interests, skills, habits, travels, acquaintances, personality, etc could help add detail and put together pieces of the overall puzzle. Of course, a direct mention of card playing or magic would be even better, but that seems unlikely.

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Re: ERDNASE

Postby Carlo Morpurgo » September 1st, 2011, 10:10 pm

Pete McCabe wrote:It's also possible that Sanders' father did know about his son's penchant for cheating techniques, and that a very loud conversation about the value of the family name may be the reason Expert was published anonymously.


True!

By the way, I made a mistake in my search at the library's web site. I now notice only a few diaries by WFS dated 1866-1867 - those can't be helpful. But I do see personal letters, and diaries written by WES 's mother and especially several diaries by his brother James....

Pete McCabe
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Re: ERDNASE

Postby Pete McCabe » September 2nd, 2011, 1:44 am

I would look at the brother's diaries pronto. You can hide your magic hobby from your dad, especially if he's a bigshot with a busy life. But not your brother. Someone had to pick all the cards. Who did Erdnase try all his tricks on?

Roger M.
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Re: ERDNASE

Postby Roger M. » September 2nd, 2011, 10:32 pm

As an aside, for anybody that remembers the origins of The Giorgio Letters, and the original intent of Tony Giorgio's Genii column, they might also see how Sanders as a candidate is almost pushed over the top when Tony's original thoughts about Erdnase are applied to Sanders.

Taking Giorgio's thinking on Erdnase and applying it to Sanders gives us a KISS example of why Sanders might not have left much of a trail as a gambler or cheater.

He was neither cheat nor hustler, maybe a weekend gambler, and maybe a amateur card magician............just like Tony said.

I'm playing devils advocate here, as I never really felt that Erdnase was the "poseur" that Tony did.

But if you accept Tony's account of Erdnase (and remember that in the world of hustling, there are few living that have Tony's credentials), and maintain the KISS or Occams Razor approach to Sanders and the apparent lack of hard evidence to support him being a cheat or gambler, then you'll also realize that there's really nothing more to find, and Tony was right all along.

Sanders was a great writer, but he was a fake?
Sanders consolidated information from the card table, but was merely a passive observer?
As per Tonys thinking, Erdnase/Sanders really didn't know much about hustling at all.
Perhaps between existing books, and his own seemingly above average intellect, Sanders simply "figured out" much of EATCT through sheer force of will and a desire to commit his thinking to paper.

Tony's original series of letters is a massive piece of missing support if one wishes to accept that Sanders is the best candidate for Erdnase........to date anyway, things are always prone to changing :)

Even if you profoundly disagree with the above (which I'm inclined to do), for those who have access to the first half a dozen or so Giorgio Letters (with your Genii subscription you do through Ask Alexander) it's worth it to go back and read once again Tony's thinking on just what Erdnase might actually have known, and why Tony's thinking strongly supports Sanders as the author of EATCT.

(Note that Tony put his thoughts to paper long before there were any candidates in the offering other than MFA, so he wrote what he wrote knowing only that MFA was proposed as the author of EATCT).


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