ERDNASE

Discuss general aspects of Genii.
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Re: ERDNASE

Postby Mike Vance » August 11th, 2011, 5:10 pm

Carlo Morpurgo wrote:I suspect that the house will be subject to much further scrutiny....loose floor tiles, hidden knobs, pulls...


The house has been fully restored, so any secret passage would likely have been found by now.

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Re: ERDNASE

Postby Steve Bryant » August 11th, 2011, 5:12 pm

I recently found a source which told of Bess Houdini offering James Thurber the pick of Houdini's library, about a year after Houdini's death. Thurber took her up on it.

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Re: ERDNASE

Postby Bob Coyne » August 11th, 2011, 5:23 pm

Roger M. wrote:If you'd prefer Richard, I be willing to stop posting.

I should state right up front that I'm not inclined to change the direction my posts are taking, so if folks don't agree with me, perhaps there's nothing constructive to be gained by offering a counterpoint to specific elements of Marty's article.

Insults disguised as questions can be difficult to respond to, although I believe I was polite in my efforts to clarify statements, or answer questions that were, frankly, hardly constructive and not really honest in their intent.


Roger, I hope you continue to post. It's valuable to have many points of view and challenges of the evidence. Weak arguments *should* be weeded out, and strong ones should be forced to stand up to the scrutiny. This should be an ongoing process as other new arguments and evidence (both pro and con) are introduced over time. This forum is a great place for that to happen.

However, it's overly provocative and insulting when you call people "kool-aid drinkers" and claim they're looking for "solace" etc if they look at the evidence differently than you. Plus it really mischaracterizes the excitement people feel at all the new evidence.

btw, I'm still interested in the odds you would place on Sanders being Erdnase (and why) -- you haven't said.

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Re: ERDNASE

Postby Roger M. » August 11th, 2011, 5:48 pm

The Bonanno family bought the house directly from Bessie. They were neighbors on the block when the Houdini's lived in the house.
Most here will recall that Houdini refused to live in the house between when his mother died, and the time he himself passed away.
He did use it for all his storage, and as pictures of the house show, Houdini had literally a ton of "stuff" in the house.

Rose Bonanno (daughter, grandaughter....I'm not sure?) maintained ownership, and lived in the house until the 70's.

Anything that Houdini and Bess left in the basement or elsewhere in the house, and that Rose didn't get around to removing, was still in place until 1970 and beyond.

There are references online to the current owner (who lives on the first two floors) finding Houdini memorabilia in the nooks and crannies of the basement right up into the 1990's.

EDIT: Just saw your post Bob, and must offer up apologies if I came on too strong for some. Not my intent to do so. I'll continue to post.....I was just pouting :)

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Re: ERDNASE

Postby Bob Coyne » August 11th, 2011, 5:57 pm

Roger M. wrote: Just saw your post Bob, and must offer up apologies if I came on too strong for some. Not my intent to do so. I'll continue to post.....I was just pouting :)


Great, good to hear!

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Re: ERDNASE

Postby Roger M. » August 11th, 2011, 6:20 pm

To answer Bobs question.

Sanders has always been in and out as my top contender for the part of Erdnase in my time following the story.
Always #1 or #2.

Truthfully, as Richard Hatch and David Alexander each presented additional evidence over the years, I went back and forth between their two candidates.

I'll reserve putting an actual percentage on it until I read the next issue of Magicol. I joined Magicol a few months ago when David Ben hinted that the September issue would include something compelling on Erdnase.

I couldn't really consider Sanders any higher than I already do without stating with absolute assurance that I believe he's Erdnase.

I'm just not there at this point in time. As I've stated many times in the last couple of days, Marty's article (as excellent as it was) didn't get me there. I know there are other regulars in this forum who "didn't get there" either, those folks can post their thoughts when they see fit to ......or maybe not, it seems to be a personal choice as to how folks are inclined to respond to Marty's article.

SO.......I'll see what the September issue of Magicol brings to the table, will re-read The Man Who Was Erdnase(which I totally disagree with, but which still remains one of the best overall Erdnase resources available), will re-read Marty and David's Genii articles, and then likely re-read this thread (which I've got printed out and bound, and as a .pdf on an iPad).

Then I'll see where it all leaves me. It's been such a compelling "hobby", I begin to wonder if I'm not intentionally trying to put the brakes on accepting a final answer........any final answer :)

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Re: ERDNASE

Postby Bill Mullins » August 11th, 2011, 6:26 pm

Is there anyone who has got an archive of the thread (printed or electronic) with the names still attached to posts? I go back and see posts that I'm pretty sure I wrote, but are labeled "anonymous".

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Re: ERDNASE

Postby Rick Ruhl » August 11th, 2011, 6:33 pm

this thread is a book in itself.. 5 years from now I can see Richard printing it as 'the erdnase talks'

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Re: ERDNASE

Postby Richard Kaufman » August 11th, 2011, 6:37 pm

I don't own the right to reprint it. All posts are owned by the person who made them.
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Re: ERDNASE

Postby Roger M. » August 11th, 2011, 6:42 pm

Rick, if you go to the top of the forum page, under Topic Options, you can select print topic from the menu, which quite beautifully (and almost instantly) formats this entire thread for either a complete hard copy print out, or (for those using a Mac) "saving" as a .pdf, to read on your iPad (or similar).

I keep a bound version (which includes up to March 2011), and an iPad .pdf version that I keep relatively up to date for those times when I'm away from any online connectivity.

........I recently went camping, and the iPad version made for some damn fine late night reading, no nightlight required :)

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Re: ERDNASE

Postby Rick Ruhl » August 11th, 2011, 6:42 pm

Compolation Copyright.. the posts remain the copyright of the people and your are compiling it in a compolation. This happend years ago with the messages from Compuserve.


I just noticed this too, to change the subject

ERDNASE
ERDNAS (drop traling e)
SANDER (backwards and the R and E inverted)

Has anyone seen that before?

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Re: ERDNASE

Postby Geno Munari » August 11th, 2011, 9:02 pm

Rick,
Your last post jogged my memory of some notes on anagrams:

This interesting. Back to anagrams.

Roterberg's New Era Card Tricks has a few names scrambled in the title:

New era card tricks
Erdnase car trick

New era card tricks
Andrews. Trick car

Some say the Erdnase must have read this 1897 book.

Probably just a coincidence.

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Re: ERDNASE

Postby Richard Kaufman » August 11th, 2011, 9:12 pm

There's no question he read it, because that's where Adrian Plate's Excelsior Change is published, and Erdnase took it and changed the name to Palm Change and put it in Expert at the Card Table.
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Re: ERDNASE

Postby Ryan Matney » August 12th, 2011, 1:24 am

Richard,

Not trying to be wise here but is there any chance of Erdnase's reinvention of the Adrian Plate change and/or the Houdini change?

I've always thought the idea of published moves being in the book and the slight tonal shift of the magic section made it seem plausible there were two authors.

Then, you published the writing analysis a little while back that said it was very possible that there were two authors!

I'm still waiting for the new issue to get here so I don't know if this is addressed in the new article or not.
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Re: ERDNASE

Postby Richard Kaufman » August 12th, 2011, 1:38 am

I don't think Erdnase reinvented anything: he read the items in earlier books, such as Roterburg and Selbit.
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Re: ERDNASE

Postby Ryan Matney » August 12th, 2011, 2:03 am

I'm bothered by that writing analysis article.
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Re: ERDNASE

Postby Rick Ruhl » August 12th, 2011, 6:28 am

This all has me thinking. In programming, some coders will try to hide their code by using obfuscation. Perhaps it's even more than anagrams that Sanders used in the text to disguise his idenity and for someone to figure it out.

Also, it could even be that someone else wrote it in Sanders style and made it look like Sanders would be the author if someone ever tried to find out who wrote it. It could have been another gambler, who wanted to get even with Sanders or his dad. His dad was a Senator so Im sure he made a few enemy's along the way.

Wow, this opens up even more of a can of worms.

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Re: ERDNASE

Postby Magic Fred » August 12th, 2011, 7:19 am

Rick Ruhl wrote:This all has me thinking...


Let me introduce you to Mr. Ockham...

;)

I look forward to reading the article at some point. Maybe it'll sway my opinion that the book was written by a gambler called Andrews.

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Re: ERDNASE

Postby Jeff Pierce Magic » August 12th, 2011, 10:16 am

Am I the only one who does not see where it says "Playing Cards" on the 1896 list? I can't make out the word cards.

Is the ancient card trick he performed "MUTUS NOMEN DEDIT COCIS" so old it could be considered the 21 card trick of it's day? The trick every kid knows how to do.

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Re: ERDNASE

Postby Richard Kaufman » August 12th, 2011, 10:33 am

Jeff, it definitely reads "1/2 doz playing cards."
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Re: ERDNASE

Postby Roger M. » August 12th, 2011, 10:41 am

Jeff, I thought the word being presented as "cards" actually looks like it begins with an "l" or a "t".
If you look at his writing in the same list above that entry, you can see he makes both of those letters (L and T) in a similar fashion.

He doesn't cross his "t".

What Marty is proposing as the word "cards" doesn't look at all like it begins with the letter "c".

Also, as demonstrated by the author in the actual article, there is also the possibility that the letter being presented as an "r" could also be an "s"......(but still can't think of any words that would make sense following "Playing" other than "cards")

Whatever "they" are, they seems to cost 75 for half a dozen of them. I've not had any luck in accurately finding out what the cost of a deck of cards was.

It looks like, if they really were playing cards, they'd need to be around 13 a pack.
Were playing cards going for 13 a pack when he made his trip North?

EDIT: Sorry Richard, you posted while I was writing..........what do you see as that first letter of "cards"?
Does it not look like an "l" or a "t" to you?

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Re: ERDNASE

Postby Richard Kaufman » August 12th, 2011, 10:46 am

The written phrase clearly appears to be "1/2 Doz Playing Cards" to me.

But let's assume that it's not a "C."

Then you get "1/2 Doz Playing Tards" or "1/2 Doz Playing Lards," neither of which makes any sense at all.
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Re: ERDNASE

Postby Bill Mullins » August 12th, 2011, 10:52 am

The "C" in "Cards" is the same as the "C" in "Lamp Chimnys" one line below it.

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Re: ERDNASE

Postby Roger M. » August 12th, 2011, 10:53 am

There are other options if the "r" is an "s" as per Marty's suggestion that Sanders made the two letters pretty much identically.

I don't know about you, but other than what would be the common sense deduction that "cards" would likely have to follow "Playing" to make any sense........that second word sure looks like it starts with an "l" or a "t" to me.

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Re: ERDNASE

Postby Jeff Pierce Magic » August 12th, 2011, 10:57 am

Roger I agree with you. it seems a stretch. I found an ad on Google books that refelected the price of .23 In 1896 for a pack of Bicycle US Playing Cards.

I thought the first letter looked more like a "l" than a "t" because the "t" has more a sharp angle at the connector between letters.

What is the first item on the list? something 9#?

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Re: ERDNASE

Postby Richard Kaufman » August 12th, 2011, 10:57 am

Roger, if you can find one phrase that makes sense using a letter other than "c" then you may have a point. But I can't imagine anything other then "cards" following "1/2 Doz Playing ..."
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Re: ERDNASE

Postby Roger M. » August 12th, 2011, 11:00 am

Despite trying, neither can I Richard.

But he seems to have decent penmanship.......and not inclined to make a somewhat well defined "l" as the first letter of "cards".
But as you say, there's really nothing else that makes sense.

Does anybody know if a deck of cards was priced around 13 at the turn of the century?

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Re: ERDNASE

Postby Bill Mullins » August 12th, 2011, 11:03 am

Roger M. wrote: Whatever "they" are, they seems to cost 75 for half a dozen of them. I've not had any luck in accurately finding out what the cost of a deck of cards was.

It looks like, if they really were playing cards, they'd need to be around 13 a pack. Were playing cards going for 13 a pack when he made his trip North?


HERE is an 1898 price -- a gross of Steamboats for $12.00, or a little over 8 cents a deck.

THIS interesting 1895 article gives stats on playing card production (20 million decks a year), and quotes retail prices as low as 5 cents a deck.

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Re: ERDNASE

Postby Jeff Pierce Magic » August 12th, 2011, 11:03 am

.23 a pack in 1896

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Re: ERDNASE

Postby Richard Kaufman » August 12th, 2011, 11:07 am

The price of playing cards varied by type. Steamboats were the least expensive, Bicycle Rider Backs more expensive.
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Re: ERDNASE

Postby Ted M » August 12th, 2011, 11:08 am

It's a capital letter, because he capitalizes each significant word in his list.

As Bill points out, its form matches the capital C in "Chimnys" on the next line down.

Its form matches neither the capital T in "Tobacco" (2 lines up), nor the capital L in "Lamp" (1 line down).

It's very clearly "1/2 Doz Playing Cards".

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Re: Erdnase

Postby Bob Coyne » August 12th, 2011, 11:08 am

Bill Mullins wrote:Google Books has Vol 8 of "The Caledonian". In the Jun 1908 issue, on p 115, is an account of the banquet of the Canadian Club of New York, held at the Hotel Astor on May 14. Among the attendees (p. 117) is S. W. Erdnose.

I and others have searched high and low for evidence of anyone, anywhere, whose real name was/is Erdnase. It doesn't exist. To find, only six years later, a name which sounds equally contrived but only one letter off seems somehow significant.

(And this is the only place I've found the name -- it isn't elsewhere in census records, newspaper archives, Google books, etc. It may be a dead end, research wise.)


This finding of Bill Mullins always intrigued me. And now that Sanders diaries and life are being actively explored, it occurred to me that maybe more is known about where Sanders was and when, particularly if he was in New York during this event.

The write-up in this article says this banquet took place on May 14th, but doesn't say the year. The publication itself is dated April 1908, so depending when the publication actually came out, it seems this banquet could have been either May 14 1907 or May 14 1908.

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Re: Erdnase

Postby Richard Kaufman » August 12th, 2011, 11:10 am

I've wondered about this as well, however it could have been almost anyone who knew about the book playing a joke.
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Re: ERDNASE

Postby Jeff Pierce Magic » August 12th, 2011, 11:11 am

OK I can see it now that I look at the word "Chimnys" thanks Bill.

Can anyone shed some light on the magic trick and my question above regarding it?

Jeff

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Re: ERDNASE

Postby El Harvey Oswald » August 12th, 2011, 11:13 am

it's obviously "playing cards" - not least because, as RK points out, absolutely nothing else makes sense. the price is indirect confirmation. not even close to being something in dispute.

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Re: ERDNASE

Postby Ted M » August 12th, 2011, 11:14 am

Also he seems to be paying around half retail price for the other items on the list.

5 pr Mitts 1.25 Retail 3.25
...
5 Undershirts 1.75 " 5.00
3 Drawers " 3.00
2 Undershirts 1.50 " 1.50

So paying 13 cents for a 23 cent pack of cards is in line with the other entries.

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Re: ERDNASE

Postby Bob Coyne » August 12th, 2011, 11:20 am

Richard Kaufman wrote:I've wondered about this as well, however it could have been almost anyone who knew about the book playing a joke.


I agree. Though it would be a strange coincidence if such a joke just happened to occur when Sanders was in NY.

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Re: ERDNASE

Postby Bill Mullins » August 12th, 2011, 11:31 am

More contemporary playing card advertisements:

HERE
HERE
HERE
HERE
HERE
HERE
HERE

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Re: ERDNASE

Postby Marty Demarest » August 12th, 2011, 11:40 am

I thought I should drop by and introduce myself. I wrote "Unshuffling Erdnase."

Thank you to everyone on this forum for engaging in such a lively and interesting discussion over the years.

And thank you particularly to Richard Kaufman for hosting this space, and for doing a wonderful job as editor. Better even than publishing what I wrote, you published what I meant to write. I hope that everyone enjoys the article. I'm eager to get my copy of Genii in the mail.

As time permits, I'll try to address some of the questions that have been asked on this forum. Many of them are ones I have already asked myself, so I'm happy to share my answers.

For starters, however, I'd like to say that I have nothing but respect for David Alexander and his work. I would never have written "Unshuffling Erdnase" without him. I can think of no greater compliment to someone's work than to extend it.

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Re: ERDNASE

Postby Roger M. » August 12th, 2011, 11:45 am

El Harvey Oswald wrote: not even close to being something in dispute.


Nobody is disputing anything, but rather undertaking a critical questioning of the evidence provided by Marty in support of his article.

In this case, and as a result of the question actually being asked......that Sanders created a "packing list" and included six decks of playing cards on it does stand up to critical examination.


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