ERDNASE

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JeffS
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Re: ERDNASE

Postby JeffS » September 3rd, 2009, 10:30 pm

Richard Hatch wrote:Jeff, I agree that the Dalrymple angle is one that could well bear fruit. My understanding is that his death was likely due to syphilis (as mentioned in the link) and perhaps that had something to do with the unusual terms of his divorce (not allowing him to remarry in New York State... for health reasons perhaps?). I have been unable to pinpoint the time when he would have been active working for the Chicago Tribune as noted in one of the articles in your link and elsewhere. If it was circa 1901 and he left abruptly to return east, that would be exceedingly interesting, given his purported "relation" to Erdnase. The fact that his name came up in conversation with Smith and was recalled by Smith 40 years later seems telling. My pet theory (admittedly rather far fetched in the absence of any evidence!) is that Dalrymple provided the initial sketches for the book, then abandoned the project when he left town, forcing Erdnase to contract Smith to complete it. That could explain the stylistic discrepencies, the erratic copyright notices, the conversational reference to Dalrymple, and the fact that Smith was surprised to learn the book had 101 illustrations when he didn't recall making nearly that many. It would, however, not explain why the title page attributes all the illustrations to Smith, though if the author were concerned about concealing his identity (and I am not convinced he was to any great extent) and was related to Dalrymple, putting the latter's name on the title page would likely have jeopardized his anonymity more than putting Smith's name there (though putting a fictitious artist's name would have provided even greater protection, which is why I have trouble accepting the theories that the author wanted absolute anonymity. If so, putting Smith's name on the title page was potentially a big risk, in my opinion).
The two big Dalrymple questions I would like answered are: 1)When did he work for the Chicago Tribune? and 2)Who were his maternal grandparents (his paternal genealogy is quite complete, but I know only approximately where and when his mother was born - Niagara County, New York, circa 1839 - and not the names or details of her parents. I also don't know when or where she died - she is not buried with Dalrymple's father - and that information might lead to her parents' names via a death certificate. From Dalrymple's obituaries, it seems she did not survive him, as she is not mentioned in them as surviving him...). Any help answering either of those questions would be greatly appreciated!


Richard,

I think the Dalrymple connection could be an excellent clue. One of the first things that occurred to me when I first learned of it was that it should be possible to find the names of all the men related, either by blood or marriage, to Louis Dalrymple or his wives who were the proper age in 1902 to fit Smith's description. I'm sure it would not be a small list but it wouldn't be huge either. Those of us who don't favor a particular candidate could then begin to narrow down the list by physical description or by proving that they could not have been in Chicago at the time the drawings were produced. It wouldn't prove it conclusively but it would lend weight to any proposed candidate if they could be proven to be related to Dalrynple. I am looking into the genealogy as well and will share whatever I can find.

Jeff
So I read the riddle.

JeffS
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Re: ERDNASE

Postby JeffS » September 3rd, 2009, 10:39 pm

With all due respects I find great interest in the research many have provided. Some of you guys really are interesting and I hope sometime to meet you in person.

Geno,

I feel the same way. This mystery has so many facets and the number of different discliplines that go into investigating it is amazing.
To that end I propose, one of these years, a mini-Erdnase convention in Chicago. I think it would be interesting to have as many people as can make it share their findings and views. New avenues could be discussed and research tasks could be divided up. Also we would be in the right city for further research. Those who could not make it could possibly participate via video chat. This is just my two cents but I'd be interested to know what you guys think.

Jeff
So I read the riddle.

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Re: ERDNASE

Postby Richard Hatch » September 3rd, 2009, 11:50 pm

Geno Munari wrote: Not one other candidate, besides Andrews, can be connected to a deck of cards. And after looking at the evidence available to me it is a very compelling argument that MFA was indeed Erdnase.

For instance: Andrews's family having knowledge of his magic books and tricks.

2. Testimony from Harte (Harto)
3. Testimony from Dunham.
4. Testimony from Pratt.
5. MFA's use of a form of anagram on many instances.
6. The police finding books on magic in his belongings. Why would MFA carry books like that around if he was just a card cheat?
7. Nothing more has been heard of the author EATCT, since MLF's death.
8. No one has claimed authorship, nor is there any hint of the author ever signing a copy. Surely, if the person writing the book had lived a normal life someone would have claimed authorship. The author was dead and probably never signed a copy. No other claimes were made by anyone else especially from those who were associated with MFA, such as Pratt et al.
9. It was never reported in the tome TMWWE about the private cipher code book MFA had in his belongings and reported in the newspaper. This topic has not even thoroughly discussed or researched.
10. The comments that Walter Gibson made about Erdnase pointing to MFA.
11. Even Smith's commets about Erdnase were no totally clear in his own mind.
12. MFA like to watch magic acts. (see below about Del Adelphia)
Also Whaley writes of loose ends such as:
1.The Andrews and Walsh families. Connie Barrett says Ed Minkley is unwilling to be interveiwed.
2. Info on George Taylor
3. The allegation about Hilliar's pirated books that he brought to Drake.
4. What were August Roterberg's activities in Chicago around 1901-1902. The Card in Hank effect in Expert was in Roterberg's book, New Era Card Tricks, called Penetration of Matter, and uses the same value and black color card, a 5, in the drawing.
5. Edwin Hood who claimed to be a long time friend of Erdnase.
6. The letters of Harte (Harto) that disappeared and never found. Some letters were bought possibly by Waldo Logan and J. Elder Blackledge.
7. Info on Nulda Petrie/Eva Howard. Why is the name Nulda unique to only her. It does not seem to be used any other person.
8. Julia Darby and why did MFA carry press clippings about her missing trunk.
9. Did Charles Ellis leave the US?
10. Del Adelphia and Hugh Johnston's claime they met Erdnase when they were playing the Empire Theater in Denver. We know MFA caught ever magic act possible. MFA was in Colorado then.

And there are more.....Respectfully. GM



Hi Geno, thanks for weighing in on this topic of mutual interest. As you know, I have been rather critical of the MFA theory, though I do find him still to be a "person of interest" in this saga. However, I'll take a moment to comment on some of your points above:
2. Harte told several people he was in contact with Erdnase. That does not have anything to do with MFA. He told no one that MFA=Andrews. Pratt is the only one who made that connection and deserves credit for leading Gardner to that theory of authorship.
3. Durham said Harto told him he had contact with Erdnase. No connection to MFA from Durham...
4. Pratt's testimony can be attacked from many angles, chief among them the fact that he is caught in several lies, such as telling Gardner he knew nothing about any articles in the press about MFA, even though he had already sold the Malted Milk Murder article to Kanter, without ever mentioning it to Gardner. Everything Pratt told Gardner about MFA that can be verified came from that article, including a few things that are not true. It is possible that Pratt knew MFA, though he never claimed to. Instead, he claimed to have been friends with the Taylor brothers, who were friends of MFA. MFA would show the Taylor boys moves, and they would show Pratt. Later Pratt claimed to recognize some of those moves in the book and made the connection (he claimed) that MFA=Andrews. The photo he sold Kanter claiming it was Erdnase is almost certainly a photo of Pratt's older brother. It is certainly not MFA (this is the frontispiece photo in TMWWE). I credit Pratt with being the first to connect MFA to Erndase, but I don't have any high degree of confidence in his testimony, considering it conjecture, based on his reading of the Malted Milk Murder article.
5. Can you give us some examples? MFA gives several aliases in his confession/alibi letters. None of them Erdnase, and I don't recall that any of them were anagrams of his name either, though I could be wrong.
6. Not sure what this proves since we don't know what the books were. If one was EATCT, that would certainly be of interest to his case... But MFA's older brother, who went to California to collect his belongings and advised him to lay low in Australia till the heat was off (evidence of a fairly close filial bond, I think) told Gardner he knew nothing about a book his brother was supposed to have written...
7. This is a strong circumstantial argument in favor of MFA, who conveniently died before the book became a best seller...
8. With more than 3 years after publication for MFA to claim authorship and sign a few copies, I'm not sure this helps bolster his case. I know of at least one copy of the first edition that has "E. S. Andrews" written on the title page (reported in an issue of The Magical Bookie). I'd like to find that copy. Doesn't mean it is a copy signed by the author, more likely an addition by a later owner who recognized or read about the name reversal, but I'd sure like to see it!
9. This is interesting, but not sure where it leads..
10. Gibson's comments led Gardner to Pratt, who, like Gardner, lived in Philadelphia, so that is a dead end (Gibson's info came from Pratt). Strangely, in Radner's book on Poker ghosted by Gibson, he quotes from EATCT and credits the authorship to James Andrews, not MFA! Possibly Gibson was confused due to Gardner's theory of JamES Andrews being a potential candidate, as published in Gibson's CONJURERS MAGAZINE prior to the Radner book.
11. Gardner at the time called Smith's recollection "clear as a bell" and got a very good physical description which remains consistent through subsequent interrogation, and is at variance with the known facts (age and height) of MFA. And Smith is careful to distinguish what he does recall from what he is unsure of...
12. I'm pretty sure this has been discussed before, but Hugh Johnston was just 11 years old when MFA died and the Empress Theater where he recalled meeting Erdnase backstage was not built until two years after MFA died and didn't change its name to the Empress till several years after that. So if Johnston was introduced to Erdnase back stage (and I think the claim worth considering), he could not have met MFA, who had been long dead.

Phew! Back to packing for the TAOM!
PS: As I see it, here are the strong points in favor of the theory of MFA authorship:
1.Last name Andrews
2. Knowledge of material in the book (though he got caught doing the spread, which is not mentioned in the book). Another way of saying this: he is the only current candidate in whose hands we can place a deck of cards
3. Death in 1905 before the book became popular...
Those pro points must be balanced against the many negative points: Youth and lack of education in contrast to the mature voice and sophisticated original techniques in the book, lack of credible testimony tying him to the book, variance in age and height with the testimony of the only eyewitness to the creation of the book, Marshall Smith. I'll raise a point on the MFA theory that I don't think has come up before: There was a nationwide manhunt for MFA after he became the prime suspect in several killings. Surely the police forces at the time interviewed as many known associates of MFA as they could find in their hunt for him. His murder/suicide at the end of that manhunt was a front page story for weeks nationwide, perhaps comparable in our day to the O.J.Simpson saga. Does anyone else find it strange that in their hunt for information on MFA, no one ever identified him as Erdnase (if, indeed, he was Erdnase?) Wouldn't MFA have found it helpful to use the book (assuming it was one of the ones he had with him when he died) to teach his gambling partner Ellis (whom he tried to murder) better card technique? I believe the police also found several decks of marked cards in his possession. Erdnase discusses marked cards in a dismissive way in his book, would Erdnase have had several decks on him several years later (oh, how the mighty have fallen... The "expert" is caught doing the spread...)?

Richard Hatch
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Re: ERDNASE

Postby Richard Hatch » September 4th, 2009, 12:04 am

JeffS wrote: I think the Dalrymple connection could be an excellent clue. One of the first things that occurred to me when I first learned of it was that it should be possible to find the names of all the men related, either by blood or marriage, to Louis Dalrymple or his wives who were the proper age in 1902 to fit Smith's description. I'm sure it would not be a small list but it wouldn't be huge either. Those of us who don't favor a particular candidate could then begin to narrow down the list by physical description or by proving that they could not have been in Chicago at the time the drawings were produced. It wouldn't prove it conclusively but it would lend weight to any proposed candidate if they could be proven to be related to Dalrynple. I am looking into the genealogy as well and will share whatever I can find.
Jeff


Jeff, this exactly parallels my own thinking, which is how I stumbled upon Edwin Summer Andrews, my current favorite candidate. If you go to the Illinois Marriage Index
( http://www.cyberdriveillinois.com/depar ... riage.html )
and enter a groom named Andrews and a bride named Seely (one of several variant spellings used by Dalryple's mother), up pop two unions, the second being the marriage of Edwin Summer Andrews to Dollie F Seely in Whiteside County in 1898. At the time I was trying to connect James Dewitt Andrews, an Illinois professor of Post-Graduate Jurisprudence and author of several treatises on the law published in Chicago in the 1890s, to Dalrymple and since he was born and raised in Whiteside County, this seemed worth pursing. But the more I learned about this particular E. S. Andrews, the more he matched the profile of the author based on what I knew (age, places and times of occupation, etc.). Andrews is not a common name and the odds of an E. S. Andrews who may be related by marriage to Dalrymple and moved to Chicago in the fall of 1901 (just prior to the book's publication there) and moved away (to San Francisco) in February 1903, the month the book drops in price from $2 to just $1, that price being offered initially by an obscure magic dealer living on the same street as this E. S. Andrews, just a few blocks north of him (rather than by a big dealer downtown like Roterberg or Vernello) is something I still find incredible if it is just a coincidence (and it could be!). If the Seel(e)y genealogy could be completed to link Dollie to Adelia as cousins or second cousins (close enough to have known each other... both families came from upstate New York and settled in adjoining counties in Western Illinois at about the same time), then I would be convinced that we "have our man" even without being able to place a deck of cards in his hands.

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Re: ERDNASE

Postby Richard Hatch » September 4th, 2009, 1:49 am

Richard Hatch wrote:10. Gibson's comments led Gardner to Pratt, who, like Gardner, lived in Philadelphia, so that is a dead end (Gibson's info came from Pratt). Strangely, in Radner's book on Poker ghosted by Gibson, he quotes from EATCT and credits the authorship to James Andrews, not MFA! Possibly Gibson was confused due to Gardner's theory of JamES Andrews being a potential candidate, as published in Gibson's CONJURERS MAGAZINE prior to the Radner book.


Whoops, quoting myself to post a correction since I can't edit the original. I meant to say (it is late!) that "Pratt, like Gibson, lived in Philadephia." Gardner, of course, lived in Chicago at that time (1946). At the SAM convention where Gardner arranged to have Marshall Smith make an appearance, Gibson told Gardner that he should get in touch with Pratt, who claimed to know who wrote the book. Gardner contacted magic dealer Mike Kanter, who put him in touch with Pratt, eventually leading Gardner to the MFA theory of authorship by following up on Pratt's hints about MFA (all culled from The Malted Milk Murderer article. NB: This article does NOT mention Erdnase. Pratt does deserve credit for being first to make the Erdnase=MFA connection and leading Gardner to it).

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Re: ERDNASE

Postby Bill Mullins » September 4th, 2009, 1:55 am

Here's some background on Adelia Dalrymple and her descendants:

She lived, according to the 1900 census, with her daughter and son-in-law, Kate (Catherine E.) and James P. Byron (a druggist and Dr.), and their son, Ralph, in Deming, NM. In 1900, Deming was part of Grant County. In 1901, that part of Grant County split off and formed Luna County, and James P. Byron was the first County Commissioner. He had been a postmaster in Grant county, for various terms between 1883 to 1895 (and possibly longer). Apparently he was a man of some means, for he was an investor in a Deming Savings and Loan, and the Deming Coal Company.

From 1899 New Mexico newspaper: Mrs. J. P. [Kate] Byron returned Wednesday from San Franciso, where she has spent the past two months visiting relatives.

By 1905, J. P. had died, and Kate had remarried to John G. Moir, also a physician and surgeon, also from Deming. The 1910 census shows John Moir and Kate Moir together in Deming, without Adelia Dalrymple in the household. By this time son Ralph is a pharmacist/doctor in Los Angeles. He was born 28 Sep 1882 in Missouri, and died 18 Jul 1965 in LA. His son, Ralph L. Byron Jr., was also a doctor (b. 2/22/1914 in LA, d. 1/9/2005 in Edina, MN). At his death, he had four children, 14 grandchildren, and 7 great-grandchildren.

By the 1930 census, John G. Moir is no longer married to Kate, but has been for two years married to Minnie. (This is odd, since Kate had a sister named Minnie, per 1880 census.) No word on Kate.

This may be fairly off-topic to the main thrust of the thread, but I post it partly in response to JeffS's suggestion "that it should be possible to find the names of all the men related, either by blood or marriage, to Louis Dalrymple or his wives who were the proper age in 1902 to fit Smith's description."

It would be extraordinarily difficult to do so. If Illinois didn't have an index of 19th century marriages, we wouldn't know Dalrymple's mom's maiden name (and it's possible to find variants in spelling of both her first and last names in official records). In the 1880 census, Dalrymple has a living brother and 2 living sisters at home. We don't know who sister Minnie or brother Charles ended up marrying. We don't know if Louis Dalrymple had any maternal aunts or uncles, or first cousins on his mother's side. We don't know enough about either of Dalrymple's wives to chase relationships from that point -- what were their maiden names?

We know, for example, from the 1899 NM newspaper that Kate (Louis's sister) had relatives in San Francisco. Presumably, then Louis did as well. Who are they?

Here's an example of another problem: Louis's sister is referred to in records with five "first" names (Kittie, Catherine, Kate, Mrs. J. P. [Byron], and Mrs. J. G. [Moir]); and three last names (Dalrymple, Byron, and Moir). How do you investigate someone when you've only got a 1 in five chance of having the right first name when you're searching?

We don't know much about Louis's father's family -- Did he (William L. Dalrymple) have brothers or sisters? Nieces or nephews?

Even if the relative of Dalrymple for whom we are searching is as close as first cousin, niece, nephew, aunt or uncle, or brother/sister/mother/father-in-law, chasing most of these leads goes straight to a dead end before we can hook them to someone who is otherwise a reasonble candidate for Erdnase. That Richard Hatch even has the coincidence of similar last names is amazing to me -- not that it proves who Erdnase is one way or another, but because he's able to find out that much about a two 19th century families.

We're luck that some of the candidates for Erdnase have anything known about their families, too. W. E. Sanders was from a prominent, wealthy family, well-documented. E. S. Andrews (Richard Hatch's candidate) is somewhat well documented, but I'm sure that Richard could tell you questions he hasn't been able to answer in 10 years of research. And we don't know anything about Todd Karr's E. S. Andrews, short of his name. He could be directly related to Dalrymple, and based on what we know now, we couldn't prove it.

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Re: ERDNASE

Postby David Alexander » September 4th, 2009, 12:57 pm

Bill well explains the difficulties encountered in genealogical research poor, incomplete, inaccurate, or non-existent recordsfamily histories that are fantasies or impossible to prove. The list could go on.

Smith claimed that Erdnase claimed a relationship with Louis Dalrymple. This could be 1) true; 2) a manipulative technique designed to quickly establish rapport with Smith; 3) believed by Erdnase as a family truth but not at all factual; and possibly other scenarios that I havent considered.

In short, it must be understood that the historic record is always incomplete.

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Richard Kaufman
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Re: ERDNASE

Postby Richard Kaufman » September 4th, 2009, 2:15 pm

I think Vernon was pretty clear that he felt Erdnase knew The Spread, and it was an item purposefully left out of the book for the very reason that he was using it.

As for the educated tone of the writing in the book, versus Milton Franklin Andrews' lack of education, I have read things written by people who never got past highschool that would reflect the level of writing in Expert at the Card Table. (I won't name names, because some of these people are my friends, or are known in the magic community, and some never stepped into a university or, if they did, never graduated.) Smart people who read a lot can teach themselves to write.
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Dustin Stinett
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Re: ERDNASE

Postby Dustin Stinett » September 4th, 2009, 2:47 pm

It's okay Richard. You can use my name. (Hey, Mr. Conklin, you can kiss my big, white, hairy....oh never mind.)

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Re: ERDNASE

Postby Richard Kaufman » September 4th, 2009, 2:56 pm

I wasn't referring to you, Dustin--I don't know your educational background. And who the heck is Mr. Conklin?
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Dustin Stinett
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Re: ERDNASE

Postby Dustin Stinett » September 4th, 2009, 3:01 pm

A high school English "teacher" who didn't like me: He claimed I didn't take the final (I did, even had friends who said I was there, but that didn't matter to him or the administrators) and failed me. He was a colossal prick.

For the record, my writing (which I have been doing since I was a kid) is "self-taught" via reading and paying attention. I also learned from my mistakes pointed out over the years by you, Max Maven, Tom Ogden, and others kind enough to tell me.

Im still learning.

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Re: ERDNASE

Postby Richard Hatch » September 4th, 2009, 3:29 pm

Certainly there are excellent writers who did not have the benefit of higher formal eduction. Shakespeare and Mark Twain would be two examples. And there are writers who wrote a single masterpiece and published not much else (Harper Lee of TO KILL A MOCKINGBIRD comes to mind, though she had extensive writing training prior to that book). So the things we read into the style of the book should only be taken as loose guidelines, I think, that may tell us more about our own prejudices than about the actual author. But I don't think the content and literary style of the book should be ignored in examining the question of authorship. I think they provide a kind of "literary fingerprint" that should be useful if a candidate with other writing samples is proposed. In that regard, MFA's confession/alibi letter does not tend (in my opinion) to support his authorship of the book, even factoring in that he was writing for a different audience under vastly different circumstances... That is why nearly all the MFA supporters ring in a "ghostwriter/editor" to polish his text, which I find an unnecessary and unlikely complication at this stage...

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Re: ERDNASE

Postby JeffS » September 6th, 2009, 2:30 am

Bill Mullins wrote:Here's some background on Adelia Dalrymple and her descendants:

She lived, according to the 1900 census, with her daughter and son-in-law, Kate (Catherine E.) and James P. Byron (a druggist and Dr.), and their son, Ralph, in Deming, NM. In 1900, Deming was part of Grant County. In 1901, that part of Grant County split off and formed Luna County, and James P. Byron was the first County Commissioner. He had been a postmaster in Grant county, for various terms between 1883 to 1895 (and possibly longer). Apparently he was a man of some means, for he was an investor in a Deming Savings and Loan, and the Deming Coal Company.

From 1899 New Mexico newspaper: Mrs. J. P. [Kate] Byron returned Wednesday from San Franciso, where she has spent the past two months visiting relatives.

By 1905, J. P. had died, and Kate had remarried to John G. Moir, also a physician and surgeon, also from Deming. The 1910 census shows John Moir and Kate Moir together in Deming, without Adelia Dalrymple in the household. By this time son Ralph is a pharmacist/doctor in Los Angeles. He was born 28 Sep 1882 in Missouri, and died 18 Jul 1965 in LA. His son, Ralph L. Byron Jr., was also a doctor (b. 2/22/1914 in LA, d. 1/9/2005 in Edina, MN). At his death, he had four children, 14 grandchildren, and 7 great-grandchildren.

By the 1930 census, John G. Moir is no longer married to Kate, but has been for two years married to Minnie. (This is odd, since Kate had a sister named Minnie, per 1880 census.) No word on Kate.

This may be fairly off-topic to the main thrust of the thread, but I post it partly in response to JeffS's suggestion "that it should be possible to find the names of all the men related, either by blood or marriage, to Louis Dalrymple or his wives who were the proper age in 1902 to fit Smith's description."

It would be extraordinarily difficult to do so. If Illinois didn't have an index of 19th century marriages, we wouldn't know Dalrymple's mom's maiden name (and it's possible to find variants in spelling of both her first and last names in official records). In the 1880 census, Dalrymple has a living brother and 2 living sisters at home. We don't know who sister Minnie or brother Charles ended up marrying. We don't know if Louis Dalrymple had any maternal aunts or uncles, or first cousins on his mother's side. We don't know enough about either of Dalrymple's wives to chase relationships from that point -- what were their maiden names?

We know, for example, from the 1899 NM newspaper that Kate (Louis's sister) had relatives in San Francisco. Presumably, then Louis did as well. Who are they?

Here's an example of another problem: Louis's sister is referred to in records with five "first" names (Kittie, Catherine, Kate, Mrs. J. P. [Byron], and Mrs. J. G. [Moir]); and three last names (Dalrymple, Byron, and Moir). How do you investigate someone when you've only got a 1 in five chance of having the right first name when you're searching?

We don't know much about Louis's father's family -- Did he (William L. Dalrymple) have brothers or sisters? Nieces or nephews?

Even if the relative of Dalrymple for whom we are searching is as close as first cousin, niece, nephew, aunt or uncle, or brother/sister/mother/father-in-law, chasing most of these leads goes straight to a dead end before we can hook them to someone who is otherwise a reasonble candidate for Erdnase. That Richard Hatch even has the coincidence of similar last names is amazing to me -- not that it proves who Erdnase is one way or another, but because he's able to find out that much about a two 19th century families.

We're luck that some of the candidates for Erdnase have anything known about their families, too. W. E. Sanders was from a prominent, wealthy family, well-documented. E. S. Andrews (Richard Hatch's candidate) is somewhat well documented, but I'm sure that Richard could tell you questions he hasn't been able to answer in 10 years of research. And we don't know anything about Todd Karr's E. S. Andrews, short of his name. He could be directly related to Dalrymple, and based on what we know now, we couldn't prove it.


Bill,

I agree that it would be a difficult task but not an impossible one. We may not be able to track down every last cousin but I believe that we should give it a try. If nothing comes of it then so be it. If this mystery is ever solved then I suspect that it will be in part because a great many people tilted at a great many windmills along the way.

As to the matter of Kate Dalrymple I thank you for the information that you have provided. That San Francisco connection is definitely worth following up on. I think that as far as her descendents go, it is probably a moot point. Smith said, as I understand it, that the man he met was middle aged. I 1901 Kate's children would be at the most in their early twenties as she was only 19 on the 1880 census. I think the same would be correct for any of Dalrymples nieces or nephews so I think first or second cousins would be a more likely possibility. I live in West Central Illinois so I am going to do what I can from my end to investigate this further.
So I read the riddle.

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Re: ERDNASE

Postby JeffS » September 6th, 2009, 2:38 am

David,

You are absolutely correct but with so few clues I think that this one should be followed up on until it dead-ends. It is also possible that a client told Smith that he was related to Dalrymple but Erdnase wasn't that client.

Jeff
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Re: ERDNASE

Postby Roger M. » September 6th, 2009, 10:01 am

There's nothing on the record to suggest that Smith's recall of Erdnase's reference to Dalrymple isn't accurate.

In order to make some scenarios fit, some have suggested that Smith's memory might be faulty, but there's nothing on record to support that thought.

The consideration that Erdnase might have fabricated the statement for reasons known only to him may simply be too large a presumption to make in the absence of any factual evidence which would lead down that path.

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Re: ERDNASE

Postby Geno Munari » September 6th, 2009, 10:42 am

While he didnt tell me an awful lot about himself, Im sure he told me enough to put you on the right tracks if I could remember it.
If you ―find him‖ let me know. I am anxious to hear end of story.
Very best,
Marshall D. Smith
2340 Geneva Terrace
[Pencilled on reverse:]
The more I look at the front views, the more I am sure they look like Andrews

In Smith's own words he was not sure of his recollection. This is from the Smith-Gardner letters.

Roger M.
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Re: ERDNASE

Postby Roger M. » September 6th, 2009, 2:10 pm

No, your own post repeats that Smith didn't indicate he wasn't sure of his recall, he simply said that he had passed along everything he could remember.

There's a huge difference between saying "I don't remember", and "I've told you everything I can remember".

Smith's memory is only being called into question by those folks that find it the only way to make their case stick.

Geno, I find it difficult to resolve that you want us to think Smith's memory of the event was accurate for those points that you want to support your candidate, and want to display his memory as totally inaccurate for those points which dispute your candidate.

In the end though, there's simply no reason ever been given to doubt Smith's memory of what Erdnase looked like, and what transpired in the hotel room that day.

Richard Evans
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Re: ERDNASE

Postby Richard Evans » September 6th, 2009, 2:40 pm

Bill Mullins wrote:
We don't know much about Louis's father's family -- Did he (William L. Dalrymple) have brothers or sisters? Nieces or nephews?



Louis Dalrymple's father, William, was one of eight children born to Jacob and Phoebe Dalrymple (nee Lewis). Jacob Dalrymple (Louis's grandfather) was himself one of nine children born to Robert and Mary Dalrymple (nee Young). I've done some work on this - but have not uncovered anyone in the family tree named Andrews/Sanders.

On a seperate note, does anyone know whether James McKinney applied for copyright on behalf of any other author of books that he printed (i.e. was it unusual for him to do so)? Following on from this, if there are other copyright applications made c/o McKinney, are these in the same handwriting as in EATCT? It's possible that the copyright application may have been made in Erdnase's own handwriting - and that this is potentially another means of establishing whether a candidate may be Erdnase.

Bill Mullins
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Re: ERDNASE

Postby Bill Mullins » September 6th, 2009, 3:57 pm

Roger M. wrote:In order to make some scenarios fit, some have suggested that Smith's memory might be faulty, but there's nothing on record to support that thought.
Smith's memory with respect to the number of drawings he did was not accurate.

Roger M.
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Re: ERDNASE

Postby Roger M. » September 6th, 2009, 5:42 pm

We don't know that.

We know how many he thought he did, and how many are in the book, but we don't have any idea whether he drew every single drawing in the book.

There is an equal opportunity for his memory to be 100% correct as there is for there to be doubt.

In other words, still no hard facts pointing towards any reason to doubt Smith's recall.

Bill Mullins
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Re: ERDNASE

Postby Bill Mullins » September 6th, 2009, 7:35 pm

Roger M. wrote:We don't know that.

We know how many he thought he did, and how many are in the book, but we don't have any idea whether he drew every single drawing in the book.

The frontispiece says "With over one hundred drawings from life by M. D. SMITH"

It doesn't say "With over one hundred drawings from life, some of which were drawn by M. D. Smith, and some by another unnamed artist whose style is similar". The book itself says that its illustrator was Marshall Smith, and no one else.

If you want to presume that two or more artists were involved, you have to start deciding that some statements that are clear and direct from the book are wrong. That way leads to madness. You might as well state that Teddy Roosevelt wrote it -- there is no evidence to support such a conclusion, and any evidence that argues against it, you just ignore or say that it is wrong.

There is an equal opportunity for his memory to be 100% correct as there is for there to be doubt.

In other words, still no hard facts pointing towards any reason to doubt Smith's recall.


The hard facts are these. Smith thought he did substantially fewer than 100 drawings. Smith did slightly more than 100 drawings. You can believe anything else you want, but it will be a belief unsupported by evidence.

Roger M.
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Re: ERDNASE

Postby Roger M. » September 6th, 2009, 10:21 pm

I'm not presuming two or more artists were involved at all Bill, and actually agree with the principal point in your post about the potential minefield of deciding some clear statements are not to be taken at face value.

When it's suggested that Smith didn't recall how many drawings he had done, and that idea is then used to then further imply that his memory was in fact faulty, I felt that pointing out that there is another potentially logical explanation that can be drawn without calling his memory into question was a valid process.

In actual fact, like a few others here I suspect that only a few of the drawings weren't completed by Smith, and that those drawings make themselves somewhat apparent for the viewing.

Of course you're right though Bill, and I try to refrain from ripping every single statement apart simply for the act of doing it.

I don't however, subscribe to any implication that there is credible evidence to suggest that Smith had a faulty memory, and believe that the record displays that Smith accurately recalled his meeting with Erdnase in response to Gardner's solicitation.
(your point above can easily suggest that we have no reason to doubt Smith's statements, as he did make them quite clearly, and he was quite sure of what he was saying when he recalled those points he elaborated on for Gardner).

One thing is for sure, that is this process of talking (posting acutally) about it, regardless of who your candidate might be, or how good a memory one might feel Smith had, keeps the project moving forward, and keeps folks thinking out loud.

It's the thinking out loud that may have the best chance of spiking a new idea, or examining a slightly different path than has been examined to date.

In other words, it's all good.

Bill Mullins
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Re: ERDNASE

Postby Bill Mullins » September 8th, 2009, 2:00 pm

More on Dalrymple's relatives:

From an obit on Louis Dalrymple, _Baltimore Sun_, 12/31/1905, p. 9
The funeral of Mr. Louis Dalrymple, the cartoonist, who died Wednesday night at Amityville, L. I., will be held this afternoon from the home of his brother in law, District Chief Fielding Lucas . . . His wife was Miss Mary Goode, sister of Mrs. Lucas.


Fielding H. Lucas was a fire chief in Baltimore. His wife's name was Marie. I've seen her middle initial as either J. or V., and I've seen her mentioned as Dalrymple's sister, rather than Mary Ann Good's.

John Bodine
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Re: ERDNASE

Postby John Bodine » September 11th, 2009, 3:16 pm

Just a few thoughts on the illustrations and how things may have come to be, please note that i am nowhere near the scholar others in this thread are; these are simply some of my thoughts on this matter.

Let's start with the Preface, here he states his PRIMARY motive, he needs the money. Perhaps there was a secondary motive?

The contents of the book could not have been put together quickly and are unlikely to have been the authors effort to get money. 'Needing the money' to me presents itself as something with some sense of urgency and i believe he saw his work (asset) as a possible solution. This would lead me to believe that the book had already been completed or nearly completed, perhaps with some plan to publish in the future (secondary motive) but with a sudden need for money the publishing was accelerated.

If one believes the author had students and had refined the text over a number of years, couldn't one also believe that he had identified during that time exactly what illustrations would be most essential to supplement the text? Perhaps even making rough sketches himself and including in the text the references to these illustrations? i see no reason he couldn't have already determined what hand positions to illustrate by the time he met Smith. This being the case, the process of going through the book, finding 101 references to the illustrations, assuming the position, and having the artist draw from the correct angle certainly wouldn't have been too daunting.

i'll leave it to those who have illustrated books to answer, but i imagine much of the time spent on the process is actually identifying the best angle necessary to illustrate a specific point in the text. i also imagine those specific points aren't always identified ahead of time and therefore requires careful reading with a student to help identify what parts require additional (illustration) clarification.

No answers in this post, but perhaps these points offer new ways of thinking about the process.

Wonderful thread regardless of the outcome. i imagine it will be a bittersweet day when the riddle is solved, but how fortunate to be the person who finds an old notebook with the text hand written and edited into the concise version we have been left to study.

-johnbodine

JeffS
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Re: ERDNASE

Postby JeffS » September 13th, 2009, 6:53 pm

Richard Evans wrote:
Bill Mullins wrote:
We don't know much about Louis's father's family -- Did he (William L. Dalrymple) have brothers or sisters? Nieces or nephews?



Louis Dalrymple's father, William, was one of eight children born to Jacob and Phoebe Dalrymple (nee Lewis). Jacob Dalrymple (Louis's grandfather) was himself one of nine children born to Robert and Mary Dalrymple (nee Young). I've done some work on this - but have not uncovered anyone in the family tree named Andrews/Sanders.

On a seperate note, does anyone know whether James McKinney applied for copyright on behalf of any other author of books that he printed (i.e. was it unusual for him to do so)? Following on from this, if there are other copyright applications made c/o McKinney, are these in the same handwriting as in EATCT? It's possible that the copyright application may have been made in Erdnase's own handwriting - and that this is potentially another means of establishing whether a candidate may be Erdnase.



That is going to be a massive amount of cousins to sort through. How many of them have you tracked down? Let me know and I can take a branch that has not yet been done.

Also, has anyone obtained a copy of the marriage license of Louis Dalrymple's parents? I was going to order one but if someone already had it I would rather focus my resources elsewhere.

Thanks,
Jeff
So I read the riddle.

jos
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Re: ERDNASE

Postby jos » September 15th, 2009, 10:56 am

I found you guys while doing a search for evidence of my great grandfather. I'm pretty sure he's your Erdnase. His name: James Andrews. He was a journalist and professional hoaxer. He called himself a "fakir" and had a fortune-telling head in Coney Island at around the turn of the 19th century. Family legend has it that he wrote a book called "The Confessions of a Fakir." In one of his hoaxes he pretended to be the king of Serbia. Two more bits of info: he graduated from Williams College, and before he was married to my Great Grandmother he was married to Eileen Fargo, the Wells Fargo heiress.

Richard Hatch
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Re: ERDNASE

Postby Richard Hatch » September 15th, 2009, 11:07 am

jos wrote:I found you guys while doing a search for evidence of my great grandfather. I'm pretty sure he's your Erdnase. His name: James Andrews. He was a journalist and professional hoaxer. He called himself a "fakir" and had a fortune-telling head in Coney Island at around the turn of the 19th century. Family legend has it that he wrote a book called "The Confessions of a Fakir." In one of his hoaxes he pretended to be the king of Serbia. Two more bits of info: he graduated from Williams College, and before he was married to my Great Grandmother he was married to Eileen Fargo, the Wells Fargo heiress.


Jos, thanks for contributing! Martin Gardner conjectured that your great-grandfather might have written Expert at the Card Table and published this theory in the August 1949 issue of CONJUROR'S MAGAZINE, which reprinted your great-grandfather's article "Confessions of a Fakir" from a 1909 Harper's Magazine. The article was published at about the same time Gardner broke the Milton Franklin Andrews' theory of authorship, which he then championed. I am personally skeptical that your great-grandfather wrote the book, but would love to have more information on him to check his candidacy against the known facts. What else can you tell us about him?

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Re: ERDNASE

Postby Richard Hatch » September 15th, 2009, 11:12 am

JeffS wrote:
Also, has anyone obtained a copy of the marriage license of Louis Dalrymple's parents? I was going to order one but if someone already had it I would rather focus my resources elsewhere.


I did obtain this a few years ago. I don't have it handy, but my recollection is that Adelia's maiden name was spelled in two different ways on the document! I'll try to locate it.
Quite a bit of genealogical work has been done on the Dalrymple line (though there is always more that could be done!), but relatively little on the mother's side. She had a sister who went with her to Illinois from upstate New York in the 1850s and the sister married and had descendants, so that would be another branch to tackle...

Bill Mullins
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Re: ERDNASE

Postby Bill Mullins » September 15th, 2009, 11:48 am

Richard Evans wrote: Louis Dalrymple's father, William, was one of eight children born to Jacob and Phoebe Dalrymple (nee Lewis). Jacob Dalrymple (Louis's grandfather) was himself one of nine children born to Robert and Mary Dalrymple (nee Young).


Go to THIS BOOK to page 647 for details on Jacob Dalrymple's family (Louis's paternal grandfather).

Richard Evans
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Re: ERDNASE

Postby Richard Evans » September 15th, 2009, 12:53 pm

JeffS wrote:That is going to be a massive amount of cousins to sort through. How many of them have you tracked down? Let me know and I can take a branch that has not yet been done.

Thanks,
Jeff


I've traced Louis Dalrymple's paternal line, including cousins. Where I've been able to find spouses' names, I've traced those too. As always, there are some dead ends, where further details of uncles/aunts have proved impossible to follow. Overall, just over 100 names, but still not complete by a long way.

Would the marriage certificate register the names of the bride and groom's parents - or witnesses to the marriage? That would be one way of getting Adelia's parents' names.

JeffS
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Re: ERDNASE

Postby JeffS » October 4th, 2009, 2:08 am

Richard Evans wrote:
JeffS wrote:That is going to be a massive amount of cousins to sort through. How many of them have you tracked down? Let me know and I can take a branch that has not yet been done.

Thanks,
Jeff


I've traced Louis Dalrymple's paternal line, including cousins. Where I've been able to find spouses' names, I've traced those too. As always, there are some dead ends, where further details of uncles/aunts have proved impossible to follow. Overall, just over 100 names, but still not complete by a long way.

Would the marriage certificate register the names of the bride and groom's parents - or witnesses to the marriage? That would be one way of getting Adelia's parents' names.





Richard,

That is the kind of thing that needs to be done. I would be very interested in seeing the expanded family tree that you have researched but I understand completely if you want to keep it close to the vest while you're researching. As to the marriage license Richard Hatch said awhile back that he has a copy around somewhere. I obtained a copy of the marriage record which is not the same as it only lists the people involved, the date, and I believe the person who married them. In this case it appears to be one William Ayres or Ayers although I am not 100 percent sure I reading the handwriting correctly. I have been told that the marriage licenses at that time didn't have as much information as the ones later on so it may be a dead end but I would also like to see a copy.

Jeff
So I read the riddle.

Richard Hatch
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Re: ERDNASE

Postby Richard Hatch » October 28th, 2009, 12:53 am

Well, someone finally took the "Bible" edition to his house of worship and taped it for posterity:


User avatar
Matthew Field
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Re: ERDNASE

Postby Matthew Field » October 28th, 2009, 5:40 am

Recorded using the popular "pecker cam".

Matt Field

Jonathan Townsend
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Re: ERDNASE

Postby Jonathan Townsend » October 28th, 2009, 10:07 am

Richard Hatch wrote:Well, someone finally took the "Bible" edition to his house of worship and taped it for posterity:



posterity or posterior? I suppose we've all done dumb things but do we really want the internet to save them for us for ever and ever amen?

John Bodine
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Re: ERDNASE

Postby John Bodine » December 4th, 2009, 3:59 pm

Curious to know if there has been any thought put into the use of acorns on the spine and front of the book. Was this stylized acorn (pair) common? Has anyone come across other books, magic or otherwise, using this acorn? Perhaps from the same original printer?

Finally, there are two of these embellishments on the spine but it appears one of them has been flipped to be upside down, almost certainly insignificant noted regardless.

-johnbodine

David Alexander
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Re: ERDNASE

Postby David Alexander » December 14th, 2009, 3:55 pm

For those researching the Dalrymple lineage...

Digging around in some old files I found the following that I received in the late 1990s regarding a Dalrymple-Sanders connection from an amateur researcher with whom I was in contact.

David,

I found the obit of Lewiss father in Cambridge, IL. I noted that W.L. Sanders of Peoria gave the sermon at the funeral. Today I looked at a Peoria City Directory 1886 and found W. Langdon Sanders Pastor of Park Place Baptist Church and Bethany Chapel in Peoria. He was not there very long as was not in the 1888 directory.


Cambridge, Henry County, Illinois December 31, 1885

Obituary Death of W.L. Dalrymple

After an illness of several months, during which time he had patiently undergone much suffering, William Louis Dalrymple died at his resident here last Sunday morning from dropsy.

Mr. Dalrymple was born in Knox County, Ohio April 7, 1827 and came to this county in 1853 where he has since lived. He entered the office of the county Clerk at that time and among the several county offices has been employed at the court house continuously since and it is said for fifteen years previous to his last illness he had not lost a day from his labors. He was deputy under Circuit Clerk Brainard and when that official left Mr. Dalrymple served out the term. He had also been County Treasurer. He was a most faithful official in the transaction of his duties, and was honored and respected by all of his acquaintances. He had also held the offices of Coroner and Justice of the Peace for many years.

He was married on Nov. 15, 1856 to Miss Adelia M. Seeley, who survives him. They have four children-Louis W., employed on the Graphic at New York City; Mrs. Kittie Bryon of Deming, N.M.; and Charles Rl, and Miss Minnie who are home, all of whom are grown.

Mr. Dalrymple united with the Baptist church at this place in 1873, and was a faithful and consistent member until his death. The funeral services were held in that church last Tuesday afternoon at 2 oclock, the Rev. W.L. Sanders of Peoria preaching the sermon, the ceremonies being in charge of the Masonic order of this place, of which deceased became a member in 1858.

Mrs. Geo. Gould of Moline is here this week, called to attend the funeral of her brother-in-law, W.L. Dalrymple.

**********************
I think the Seeleys were connected to the Edgertons and that may be the connection to my candidate.

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Re: ERDNASE

Postby Richard Hatch » December 19th, 2009, 1:17 am


David Alexander
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Re: ERDNASE

Postby David Alexander » December 19th, 2009, 10:50 am

Yummy...and the cake looked good, too.

JeffS
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Re: ERDNASE

Postby JeffS » December 20th, 2009, 1:52 am

The only image that I have seen of the first edition is the small one on erdnase.com. If someone could guide me to a better image I would appreciate it. I wouldn't think the acorns would be a clue but you never know. I would guess it was a standard affectation thaty could be applied if the customer wished. On the other hand it might have cost extra so they may be there for a reason.

Jeff
So I read the riddle.

JeffS
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Re: ERDNASE

Postby JeffS » December 20th, 2009, 2:03 am

David Alexander wrote:For those researching the Dalrymple lineage...

Digging around in some old files I found the following that I received in the late 1990s regarding a Dalrymple-Sanders connection from an amateur researcher with whom I was in contact.

David,

I found the obit of Lewiss father in Cambridge, IL. I noted that W.L. Sanders of Peoria gave the sermon at the funeral. Today I looked at a Peoria City Directory 1886 and found W. Langdon Sanders Pastor of Park Place Baptist Church and Bethany Chapel in Peoria. He was not there very long as was not in the 1888 directory.


Cambridge, Henry County, Illinois December 31, 1885

Obituary Death of W.L. Dalrymple

After an illness of several months, during which time he had patiently undergone much suffering, William Louis Dalrymple died at his resident here last Sunday morning from dropsy.

Mr. Dalrymple was born in Knox County, Ohio April 7, 1827 and came to this county in 1853 where he has since lived. He entered the office of the county Clerk at that time and among the several county offices has been employed at the court house continuously since and it is said for fifteen years previous to his last illness he had not lost a day from his labors. He was deputy under Circuit Clerk Brainard and when that official left Mr. Dalrymple served out the term. He had also been County Treasurer. He was a most faithful official in the transaction of his duties, and was honored and respected by all of his acquaintances. He had also held the offices of Coroner and Justice of the Peace for many years.

He was married on Nov. 15, 1856 to Miss Adelia M. Seeley, who survives him. They have four children-Louis W., employed on the Graphic at New York City; Mrs. Kittie Bryon of Deming, N.M.; and Charles Rl, and Miss Minnie who are home, all of whom are grown.

Mr. Dalrymple united with the Baptist church at this place in 1873, and was a faithful and consistent member until his death. The funeral services were held in that church last Tuesday afternoon at 2 oclock, the Rev. W.L. Sanders of Peoria preaching the sermon, the ceremonies being in charge of the Masonic order of this place, of which deceased became a member in 1858.

Mrs. Geo. Gould of Moline is here this week, called to attend the funeral of her brother-in-law, W.L. Dalrymple.

**********************
I think the Seeleys were connected to the Edgertons and that may be the connection to my candidate.


David,

Thanks for posting this. According the the Illinois Statewide Marriage Index an Emma F. Seeley married a George D. Gould on 1/27/1961 in Henry County, IL. I seem to recall that no one had yet located an obit for Dalrymples mother. If we can't find that then one for his Aunt Emma may provide some of the same info. I will look around for it.

Jeff
So I read the riddle.


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