ERDNASE

[Bill Mullins]

It took me four years to find the name of the man who wrote the Shakespeare works.

That name would be William Shakespeare, I believe.

[Roger M.]

Thanks for an interesting thread, everybody, but, I am pleased to say, nobody has even mentioned my man.
Peter Zenner

Well I'm sure everybody who's contributed to this thread over the years is glad for the "thank-you".

BTW, have you ever looked up the definition of "hubris"?...........you should.

[Leonard Hevia]

I found an image of Zenner's candidate. It's either the man on the left, or the man on the right:

[crandash]

In regards to Bill Mullins post regarding the "Erdnase Color Change" or First Method, I have always wondered about the Houdini connection. As I recall the change was put into Selbits book which appeared in Print in 1901 as previously discussed. In addition I recall that Selbeit credited Houdini "for knowledge of the movement" in latter additions.

I am unsure if the credit to Houdini appeared in the first addition. If it did not appear in the first edition, is it safe to assume Selbit received feedback from Houdini, therefore crediting him in later editions?

On page 176 of the Annotated Erdnase, Mr. Ortiz credits the invention of the color change to Harry Houdini and goes on to say, "The Selbit description is accompanied by an illustration which is almost an exact duplicate of Erdnase' fig 84."

I also recall reading somewhere, of Dai Vernon showing the ambitous routine to Houdini over and over going against the boast of Houdini, that if shown a trick twice he could figure it out. But failed on this particular night, as Bess dragged Houdini away. I believe Mr. Vernon went with the moniker of the "Man who fooled Houdini."

In the Vernon Chronicles, Vernon discusses that Houdini was not much of a Card Magician.

In earlier posts on this Forum it has been mentioned that in Houdini's vast library he did have a copy of TEATCT. And I also believe that the Houdini's were God-Parents to 1 or both of Vernon's sons.


My question is as follows:
If Houdini had such a huge ego, it must have burnt him up that Vernon fooled him with the card trick and went about using that as his moniker? And as they appeared to have a relationship later on. I am merley speculating, that, Houdini knowing Vernons love of Erdnase, the greatest "poke" would be to open up the book that Vernon valued as his bible, to the Houdini Color Change and set the record straight?

Any thoughts on this...

Chad Randash

[Bill Mullins]

Vernon fooled Houdini in 1922; Houdini died only 4-1/2 years later. "The Man Who Fooled Houdini" sounds like a moniker that grew over time. David Ben would be the guy to ask, but I bet Vernon wasn't using it immediately after the incident, but rather some time later; and I bet further that Houdini never heard Vernon say it.

Yes, Houdini had an ego, but it sprang from supreme self-confidence. That Vernon did a trick that Houdini couldn't figure out didn't threaten Houdini.

Also, the importance of Expert wasn't nearly as well recognized in the 1920s as it is now. While Vernon may have been saying privately to people how good a book it was, I see no evidence that he was publicly proselytizing it the way he caem to do in later years.

Put all this together, and the scenario that you lay out -- that Houdini took satisfaction at his trick being in Vernon's favorite book -- doesn't seem likely.

(A copy of Expert formerly owned by Houdini is scanned and is on the Library of Congress web page. Too bad he didn't make any marginal notes about the paternity of the sleight.)

In the Vernon Chronicles, Vernon discusses that Houdini was not much of a Card Magician.

The newspaper reporters who saw Houdini do card work in the 1890s and wrote about it would disagree. Pretty strongly.

[Larry Horowitz]

The Vernon's were particularly friendly with Houdini's wife Bess. That is most likely how the God-parentage came about.

[Richard Kaufman]

Houdini was widely known to be quite expert with cards. He can be seen performing flourishes as well as other sleights in short films made by Pathe, I believe. He was also noted (by Gaultier, I think) for doing an excellent Classic Pass: putting the selected card in the middle of the deck and doing the Pass to make it appear on top.

As far as Vernon fooling Houdini, Vernon used a double-backed card which, aside from two tricks by Theodore DeLand, was entirely unknown in the United States. Vernon was the first person that I know of to put a single double-backed card into a regular deck and do something with it.

[Marty Jacobs]

I'm afraid I don't have any additional information on the man himself, but I have started studying Erdnase's book in detail, and I'm posting my thoughts on my blog. You can read all of my Erdnase related posts on one page here:

http://www.magiconthebrain.com/tag/exploring-erdnase/

Marty

P.S. Here's the direct link to the scan of Houdini's 1905 edition of The Expert at the Library of Congress. Thanks for mentioning this in your post Bill.

[Jonathan Townsend]

Per the title page of the text:

A whole calendar of slights? Might make an amusing title for a companion to Max's Protocols book. IMHO, as per the introduction, it will not "make the fool wise, or curtail the annual crop of suckers".

Is a confidence game a betrayal?

[crandash]

Ahhh, great information! 2 more questions, In Selbit's 1st edition is Houdini credited, or does the credit come after the first edition?

Bill, I understand what you said regarding the timeline of the moniker and the death of Houdini. Going with your hypothesis, I am making one more stab, that in all of these years, in all of the road trips with various friends, and as found in "REVELATIONS" 1984 page i....Diaconis talks about road trips around 1959 where Vernon would not only discuss the book but would quiz him...
"Where does Ernase ever mention a pair of shoes?"
"Where does Erdnase talk about overcoming friction?"
Etc...

In the 50's when Martin Gardner searches for Erdnase and Vernon's conversation(s) with Sprong, I just think it odd that this was not a big enough deal to point out in print or in either of the Revelations/Revelation books (unless I missed it) from the individuals that are/were still around during the time of the printings.

Am I trying to make too much of this connection?

[Roger M.]

I think most of the "individuals" who were (and are) still around when the book(s) were written had long ago quit discussing in public any specific, or personal details of this era.

Other than a few short, repeated, and terribly glib and pat comments in assorted magazines and perhaps a recent publication, the "individuals" in queston don't speak about any of it, to anybody (perhaps they share with each other, who knows?).

[Bill Mullins]

In the 50's when Martin Gardner searches for Erdnase and Vernon's conversation(s) with Sprong, I just think it odd that this was not a big enough deal to point out in print or in either of the Revelations/Revelation books (unless I missed it) from the individuals that are/were still around during the time of the printings.

Am I trying to make too much of this connection?

Remember, Vernon's point in annotating Expert in Revelations was to explain the text of Expert. Not to explore or identify the mysterious author.

Gardner did work on the identity problem, and assumed he was correct in identifying M. F. Andrews in the late forties. Once that I.D. was made, the mystery was "Case Closed" with no further investigation required, until David Alexander and Richard Hatch re-opened it at the LA History conference a dozen or so years ago (by which time anyone who would have been able to shed first-hand light on the subject was long dead).

Didn't Vernon speak with Sprong in the 1930s?

[Don Hendrix]

It took me four years to find the name of the man who wrote the Shakespeare works.

That name would be William Shakespeare, I believe.

Zenner comes to a different, although, I think, bogus conclusion. If his Erdnase candidate is no more credible than his Shakespeare canidate, it will not cause a ripple in the Erdnase debate.

[Bill Mullins]

He doesn't think that Expert was written by Edward de Vere, 17th Earl of Oxford, does he?

[Bill Mullins]

From time to time I see people looking for a hardbound copy of Expert. Right now, George Daily is offering the late Earle Oakes's copy of Mickey MacDougall's Card Mastery, which includes the full text of Expert. This is probably the least expensive HB way to get it.

[Tom Sawyer]

Hi All,

It's interesting the way this thread seems largely to move forward in "waves" of posts. In the past ninety days or so there has been only one new post I see on this thread. I guess that we are now in the trough of a wave, and I don't imagine that this post will lift the thread into a new wave crest.

But I wanted to mention that my most recent video posted to my YouTube channel deals with a 1905 Drake version of The Expert at the Card Table, in paper covers. Here is a link:

http://www.youtube.com/user/TomSawyerTV/videos

As I mentioned in the following post in this thread . . .

viewtopic.php?f=1&t=1240&start=2400#p266842

. . . it would appear that there were at least three different variants of the book dated 1905, which can (it seems) probably be set into a more-or-less definite chronological sequence. Based on the information in that post, the copy I discuss on YouTube is an example of the second of the three.

--Tom Sawyer

[Bill Mullins]

Earlier in the thread the subject of the Houdini/Erdnase color change has come up.

This magazine from Spain ("Por Esos Mundos" of Apr 1901) shows a photograph of someone doing the color change, and attributes it to Houdini:

El notable professor de cartomancia, Houdini . . . practicaba un bonito juego titulado el nuevo cambio, que consiste en tomar una baraja con las cartas vueltas hacia el público.

Se ruega á uno de los espectadores mostrándole la primera carta que diga el palo que es, y enseguida se pasa la mano sobre la carta y como si al hacerlo se hubiera borrado el palo, debe aparecer otra carta distinta causando la admiración de los concurrentes.

I don't understand Spanish, but believe the passage says something like:

The notable professor of card magic, Houdini . . . practiced a nice trick entitled the new change, that involves taking a deck with the cards turned toward the audience.

Request to one of the spectators by showing the first card stating what it is, and then passes his hand over the card as if doing so would have vanished it, a different card should appear causing the admiration of the audience.

Note also on the page a photo of what I believe is the classic pass, being used to reveal a face-up selection which has previously been inserted into a face-down deck. And the previous page shows a photo of the back palm, predating the one from Imro Fox by two years.

[Richard Kaufman]

Houdni is cited by Gaultier, I believe, for being a master at doing the Pass with a face-up card inserted into the face-down deck and bringing it to the top.

[Marty Demarest]

The article and photographs of Houdini from "Por Esos Mundos" are the same as printed in "The New Penny Magazine," No. 120, Vol. X. "The New Penny Magazine" doesn't give any date, but a copy in the New York Public Library was sent from Howard Thurston to Saram Ellison in January of 1902. (According to a hand annotation on the article.)

The text in "The New Penny Magazine" states that the photographs were taken for that article, so it presumably predates the 1901 Spanish magazine. Houdini posed for the photos himself at the Press Studio. The face-up card is being used in the classic pass simply to better illustrate its position in the deck. Also exposed are a quadruple pass, crimping, bridging, second dealing, the waterfall cascade and the back palm.

The color change is not explicitly claimed as original by Houdini, but it is titled "The New Change," and it is identical with Erdnase's First Transformation. I think that there is more than enough evidence that Houdini originated this sleight, especially considering that Houdini's name is the only one associated with it prior to the publication of The Expert at the Card Table.

As for Houdini's skill with cards, the article certainly reveals him to be widely knowledgeable, both with regards to magic and cheating. And as Richard noted, there are testaments to his card skill. But I'll also add this quote from Fred Keating's essay "Magic as Theatre" in Tarbell 6: "I have seen audiences sit spellbound as Houdini, stalling for time when something went wrong backstage, performed (and none too well at that) the back and front hand palm with a deck of cards."

[Richard Kaufman]

You can judge Houdni's ability with cards for yourself. Pretty good, I'd say.

[John Carney]

Of Houdini's skill with cards, Vernon used to say, "He was a BUTCHER!"

[Richard Kaufman]

Yes, Vernon used to say that, but he hated Houdini as a magician.

[Thomas Van Aken]

Indeed.

Camille Gautier hated Houdini for his attacks on Robert-Houdin but confessed that he never saw such an skillful manipulator.

Regards

Thomas

[Bill Mullins]

The article and photographs of Houdini from "Por Esos Mundos" are the same as printed in "The New Penny Magazine," No. 120, Vol. X. "The New Penny Magazine" doesn't give any date, but a copy in the New York Public Library was sent from Howard Thurston to Saram Ellison in January of 1902. (According to a hand annotation on the article.)

This would indicate that the date of the magazine is Feb 9, 1901.

[Don Hendrix]

It took me four years to find the name of the man who wrote the Shakespeare works.

That name would be William Shakespeare, I believe.

Zenner's book on Shakespeare is as wacko as anything you will ever read. It has been out for a while now and most serious Shakespeare scholars have yet to hear of it.

[Magic Fred]

You can judge Houdni's ability with cards for yourself. Pretty good, I'd say.

Disagree. Although it's very difficult to judge from this sort of footage, it seems to corroborate Vernon's sentiment.

[Pete McCabe]

Yeah, I have to say that if Vernon saw that footage, I don't think he'd praise it.

[Brad Henderson]

Let us not forget we have the benefit of judging houdini's technique after experiencing the effects of Vernon's influence re naturalness and technique. We have in our experience acts of manipulation that would have been inconceivable in that day. Shoulders of giants, and all.

The back and front palms were still novel at that time - was Thurston's handling more refined?

I'm sure the first cave man who pretended to take a rock from one hand and vanished it into the air with the other would be considered a butcher by our standards.

Yet they called him Preist.

[Jonathan Townsend]

Houdni is cited by Gaultier, I believe, for being a master at doing the Pass with a face-up card inserted into the face-down deck and bringing it to the top.

You mean he fooled Gaultier by doing that? ... That's impressive.

Oh come on put the card back in the middle

No way - it's back on top. How did you do that?

No wonder Vernon messed with him using just the second card.

[Bill Mullins]

There are several pdf versions of the book online. (Erdnase Bible from CARC, the Library of Congress scan of the 1st Drake hardcover, the Learned Pig version, etc.).

I just ran across this version, reformatted and retypeset by Marty Jacobs.

[Bill Mullins]

And Daniel Madison has a printed edition I just learned about.

Has anyone seen it? Any comments, good, bad or indifferent?

[MarkAndrew]

And Daniel Madison has a printed edition I just learned about.

Has anyone seen it? Any comments, good, bad or indifferent?

Hello, Bill!
My comment would be: Irregardless of what is on offer, when the offer itself is done with subterfuge/blatant misleading, I wish no further part in the endeavor.
(I understand Daniel makes his living with the image he has carefully crafted/great mechanics. However, to me the image becomes a falsity when used to garner money.)

[Bill Mullins]

when the offer itself is done with subterfuge/blatant misleading,

The offer is pretty straightforward: "Send me 25 pounds, I'll send you a book."
Not much subterfuge.

I'm missing your point, I guess.

[MarkAndrew]

when the offer itself is done with subterfuge/blatant misleading,

The offer is pretty straightforward: "Send me 25 pounds, I'll send you a book."
Not much subterfuge.

I'm missing your point, I guess.

Hi, Bill,
Maybe you did not read the "offer" for the book? "The author wishes to remain anonymous..." We are to believe that it is not DM? Even though it is his personal website, and he has said elsewhere that it is him? Also, the reason they are on offer: "left over" from a print run he made for his friends? Unless he is that wealthy (which he seems to not be, because he is now selling them instead of giving them away) where he told the printer to run as many as the printer felt like, or he lost dozens of friends recently, that dog doesn't hunt.

If you are familiar with him, as you are, many of his sales pitches are premised on misleading/false advertising. The 'reformed' card sharp? Gotcha. An image that has held sway in magic since at least the book in question was put on the biblical pedestal by The Professor. But claiming rarity/originality for work and pieces that you've only added the cool, dark, 'extreme' facade to established thoughts and mechanics to me is subterfuge at its' worst connotation.

[Bill Mullins]

I don't know if Daniel Madison's persona reflects his actual life history, or not. Johnny Thompson's presents himself as a slightly baffled Polish aristocrat. Pretty sure he's not from Poland.

Not everything on the order page is the literal truth (and that is probably true of many order pages for many magic products . . . .). I was interested in the product itself -- is it a quality binding? Is there any content beyond the original text? Has it been reformatted and typeset?

[MarkAndrew]

I don't know if Daniel Madison's persona reflects his actual life history, or not. Johnny Thompson's presents himself as a slightly baffled Polish aristocrat. Pretty sure he's not from Poland.

Not everything on the order page is the literal truth (and that is probably true of many order pages for many magic products . . . .). I was interested in the product itself -- is it a quality binding? Is there any content beyond the original text? Has it been reformatted and typeset?

Johnny is Polish, but I don't believe he sells his services and ideas by conning people into believing he is a Polish aristocrat? His sells his 'persona'/act as that. (Hence you pointing out the obvious, that we know the difference). That was my point above. And I would add for me, if there are other magic products that are SOLD with deception, that is a condemnation of the many, rather than a buttress for DM. (To clarify this point, Bill: No problem with persona. Problem with actual falsities to take my money out of my pocket. Would you yourself sell an effect that wasn't yours, and claim it was, because it fit with your gestalt? Or Ortiz pull a con on the consumer, because that is part of 'what he does'?) OKAY: I am paying homage to SWE. Here is my book and why you should buy it. NOT okay: Here is a secret book that was never intended for the public, but because I'm a good guy, I'll let you have one of only a 'few' limited editions that I happen to have.

As for the book itself, the binding is not what I would call 'quality', but it is not cheaply done. (The money seems to have been spent on the paper, and having it feel like quality). The text is a reprint of the original: nothing added, nothing taken away. For those who have mentioned frequently cropping editions or printing parts to carry in back pockets, this is exactly what this book was meant to be: carried with, studied, always at hand. (Although I would like to echo John Racherbaumer; I have yet to see anything other than DV's echos as to WHY this manuscript is imbued with such scholarly enigmas?)

Here is a link to DM's Erdnase green deck sold on Ellusionist http://www.ellusionist.com/madison-dealers-green.html You can get a glimpse of the book at 25 seconds in or so. Or at least the page size/format.

[Bill Mullins]

So you bought one?

[MarkAndrew]

So you bought one?

My cousin, who I introduced to card magic many years ago, is a fan of DM's style (ellusionist, Dan & Dave, XCM) and a collector as well. He will purchase almost any book or magazine that pertains to cards in magic or poker. (I am a huge bibliophile as well) He lives three towns from me, so there is not much we miss between the two of us! (anytime you see a readership to a serious card magazine such as Antinomy, any of Fulves whenever they are shipped , etc., a subscription or two can be counted from us.)

So, I have held his. If you are looking for another in your collection of Artifice Ruse And Subterfuge, it is probably worth the price. If you are looking for anything other than a scaled down facsimile of the 1902 edition, probably not worth it.

[Marty Demarest]

Via private channels, I have received several questions about an article I wrote that is published in the current (Winter 2013) issue of Montana, the Magazine of Western History. The title of the article, "Montana's Conjurers, Con Men and Card Cheats," sums up the general subject. But the specific focus is on W.E. Sanders and S.W. Erdnase. Since this forum is the best place to go for Erdnaseana, I thought it best to answer the questions here, publicly.

The Montana article is based fundamentally on a different article of mine, "Unshuffling Erdnase," that was published in the September 2011 issue of Genii magazine. The two articles take the same starting point--David Alexander's and Richard Kyle's theory that The Expert at the Card Table was written by Wilbur Edgerton Sanders. But, while the basic facts of the matter haven't changed--history hasn't been rewritten in the past few years--the context and presentation of many of those facts is substantially different in the Montana article.

So in response to the question of whether the current article is "merely a reprint or a retread" of the earlier article, I would say that no, it's not a reprint or a retread. Several sections of prose are similar or identical between the two articles. Some of the same photos appear in both articles. And, as noted above, the basic facts of the story haven't changed--they are a matter of historic record. But the current article introduces new information, both about The Expert at the Card Table and W.E. Sanders. And it offers an analysis of the previously unexamined worlds of magic and card cheating in frontier Montana. These subjects are tied together in an attempt to see how the Sanders theory fits with historic evidence.

But it would be misleading to imply that the Montana article is profoundly different from the Genii article. If someone has read the Genii article and feels the need to pursue the subject no further, I'm not sure the Montana article will add very much to the pleasure of their lives. However, if the Sanders theory, or Erdnase in general, is of interest to someone, then they may well find something new to enjoy in the Montana article. I certainly hope so.

I have also been asked why I chose to write another article about the same subject, and the short answer is: Because the mystery still hasn't been solved. The identity of the author of The Expert at the Card Table is still unknown, and so I don't feel the need to cease my investigation. Moreover, the current article was written for a scholarly reviewed, widely respected history journal, and I wanted to take the opportunity to introduce other readers to the Erdnase subject. The magic community, while fostering Erdnase's work for years, has also burdened it with a cult of personality and exclusivity. Haphazard, sloppy editions of this "bible" have proliferated, and the investigation into its origins has regularly devolved into armchair punditry. Invective has often replaced analysis, and ego has come to dominate a discussion about art and history. I think The Expert at the Card Table deserves better. The Montana article is one attempt to accomplish that.

I was also inspired by Richard Hatch's excellent article, "Reading Erdnase Backwards" (first published in Magicol and then reprinted in the booklet Erdnase Unmasked). I found Richard's article to be a coherent and comprehensive presentation of evidence relating to E.S. Andrews and The Expert at the Card Table--a well-written summation of Richard's work, composed with the perspective of time and analysis. It encouraged me to do the same for W.E. Sanders, since my investigation had unearthed and verified new information after the Genii article's publication. Also, much as I hope that Richard's article doesn't represent his final word on the subject, I'm also far from finished. The Montana article should not be seen as the conclusion of this project. There is more to come.

[Bill Mullins]

If someone has read the Genii article and feels the need to pursue the subject no further, I'm not sure the Montana article will add very much to the pleasure of their lives.

Marty is far too modest. Owning a copy of the current issue of [img]Montana[/img] will add greatly to the pleasure of your life. It will also reduce your cholesterol, tone up your abs, relieve the aches of rheumatism, improve your complexion, conquer biliousness, and encourage a natural and healthy action of the bowels.

All kidding aside, even if you have only a passing interest in the subject of Erdnase, serious and scholarly articles like this are exactly what magicians should be supporting -- they are a wonderful antidote to the far too-common "Burt Wonderstone" stereotypes. Magic has a rich and fascinating history that for the most part doesn't include coins from behind ears and sponge bunnies, and it is to the benefit of all that the popular press explore that history. (And there is a good chance that this will be a collectible in its own right in years to come.)