ERDNASE

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Zig Zagger
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Re: ERDNASE

Postby Zig Zagger » February 6th, 2020, 4:15 pm

Carlo Morpurgo wrote:
Jonathan Townsend wrote:Carlo, folks, how do you distinguish writing of that time from specific authorship?

The editor of The Sphinx plays American and writes his own Sharps and Flats in first person... then offers the Modern Magicians Handbook?


Sorry Jonathan, I do not understand what you are asking.

I do hope that one day the mind and musings of JT will also become the subject of in-depth research and debate here! Obviously, he‘s not Erdnase, but quite another enigma. After all, his true identity may be Johan Wand Sonnett! ;)
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Re: ERDNASE

Postby Pete McCabe » February 6th, 2020, 6:50 pm

I believe we will know the true identity of Erdnase before we know the true meaning of Jonathan Townsend's posts.

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Re: ERDNASE

Postby Tom Gilbert » February 6th, 2020, 9:34 pm

I thought it was just me after all these years....

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Re: ERDNASE

Postby Paco Nagata » February 8th, 2020, 9:30 am

I have noticed that there is no post of mine in this thread yet...
So, I will give my humble opinion after having read TONS of "literature" regarding this mystery.
In my opinion Erdnase is (was) August Roterberg.
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Re: ERDNASE

Postby Jack Shalom » February 8th, 2020, 9:47 am

Zig Zagger wrote:I do hope that one day the mind and musings of JT will also become the subject of in-depth research and debate here! Obviously, he‘s not Erdnase,


Are you sure?

Wand jots; then anon.

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Re: ERDNASE

Postby Zig Zagger » February 8th, 2020, 11:05 am

Paco Nagata wrote:I have noticed that there is no post of mine in this thread yet...
So, I will give my humble opinion after having read TONS of "literature" regarding this mystery.
In my opinion Erdnase is (was) August Roterberg.

Interesting, Paco! Would you share some more thoughts on this?

I think there might be a connection between Roterberg and Dr. Elliott...
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Re: ERDNASE

Postby Zig Zagger » February 8th, 2020, 11:37 am

Jack Shalom wrote:
Zig Zagger wrote:I do hope that one day the mind and musings of JT will also become the subject of in-depth research and debate here! Obviously, he‘s not Erdnase,


Are you sure?

Wand jots; then anon.

Hmmm... Who knows?!
But I‘d say he is too young and not in it for the money. :)
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Re: ERDNASE

Postby Paco Nagata » February 9th, 2020, 9:52 am

Zig Zagger wrote:Interesting, Paco! Would you share some more thoughts on this?

I think there might be a connection between Roterberg and Dr. Elliott...

Well, let's see:

1- First, I believe that this book was written by a card magician; not by a gambler.
Why would a gambler being interested in writting a book talking about sleight of hand with cards as card magic anonymously? Who would have he wanted to hide from in that case?
Whereas, if he wanted to written a book revealing sleight of hands as gambling, it would be reasonable to do it anonymously (to hide from gamblers), but, why writting about card magic as well?
So, I believe he was principally a card magician.

2- Second, judging by the book itself, I think that the writter was kind of upset about the use of sleight of hand in card gambling for cheating. So, he decided to writte a book showing clearly both aspects. Hence, doing it anonymously.

3- Thrid, I personally disagree with the backward spelling theory.
Why?
I reckon that if someone wanted to write a book anonymously, it wouldn't have much sense to give clues or hints about the author. If the author were a totally unknown person, it would be reasonable to leave some clues for the future, however, I believe that the author was known by the magic community, so that prefering to stay anonymous.

4- Fourth, I think that the backward spelling case is just a coincidence with the German childhood nickname "Erdnase" (the nickname Erdnase in German means 'Earth Nose'), according to the great theory of Chris Wasshuber; see the following document:

https://www.lybrary.com/the-hunt-for-er ... -a-27.html

5- Fifth, in "New Era Cars Tricks" was published for the first time "Penetration of Matter," the nowadsys famous and popular card trick in which a card penetrates a handkerchief. Well, 5 years late the same trick was published in "The Expert at the Card Table." This trick has not much to do with sleight of hands, so, why the author selected it for that book being so many great card tricks out there related to sleight of hands?

Well, those are my principal arguments.
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Re: ERDNASE

Postby Roger M. » February 9th, 2020, 10:30 am

Those are all interesting ideas, indeed most of them have been posited in one form or another before.
However, none of them draw a line between Roterberg and Erdnase/EATCT ... so where are you getting that specific connection from?

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Re: ERDNASE

Postby Richard Kaufman » February 9th, 2020, 10:57 am

Well, Roterberg was German, so there's your "earth nose."
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Re: ERDNASE

Postby Bill Mullins » February 9th, 2020, 1:03 pm

Paco Nagata wrote:
4- Fourth, I think that the backward spelling case is just a coincidence with the German childhood nickname "Erdnase" (the nickname Erdnase in German means 'Earth Nose'), according to the great theory of Chris Wasshuber;


Credit for this insight goes to Tom Sawyer, not Wasshuber.

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Re: ERDNASE

Postby Zig Zagger » February 9th, 2020, 1:11 pm

Paco Nagata wrote:
Zig Zagger wrote:Interesting, Paco! Would you share some more thoughts on this?

I think there might be a connection between Roterberg and Dr. Elliott...

(...)

5- Fifth, in "New Era Cars Tricks" was published for the first time "Penetration of Matter," the nowadsys famous and popular card trick in which a card penetrates a handkerchief. Well, 5 years late the same trick was published in "The Expert at the Card Table." This trick has not much to do with sleight of hands, so, why the author selected it for that book being so many great card tricks out there related to sleight of hands?

A good point, Paco!

Actually, the word ERDNASE is also hidden (or present) in the title "New Era Card Tricks,", but that's a very long shot, I guess. (And so is TRACK ERDNASE.)

As for the German word "Erdnase", I disagree with Chris Wasshuber's assessment that this was or could have been a common nickname for a child back then (although I greatly respect Chris for his out-of-the-box thinking, his deep original research and his dogged determination to prove his points). I have yet to see more than just a passing reference to "buy" this point. (I think I wrote about this question earlier here or at least in the Erdnase section of my magic blog.)

I agree with you and many others that "E.S. Andrews" as a reversal of "S.W. Erdnase" (or vice versa) is probably just too easy to miss and therefore unlikely to be the author's real name if he actually had had reasons to remain anonymous.

On the other hand, Erdnase was apparently very proud of his own creations. Being a tiny bit of a creator myself, I'd have a hard time believing that you would attach a totally unrelated name to your brain child (like the S.W.E. Shift). Hence I would argue that, no matter what the real meaning behind it, S.W.E. had a significant meaning for the author. (This certainly would have worked for JameS W. E_lliott.)

On Roterberg, it is probably worth mentioning (though a long shot again) that his name translates as "red mountain" or "red hill". The German word "Erdnase" also means hill (but not really mountain), and it's easy to twist "red" into "erd"...

I have also wondered how common or uncommon the term "card handler" (from the frontispiece of TEATCT) was at that time, because the German noun "Händler" (spelled differently, but pronounced very similarly) means "dealer" (not as in "card dealer" but as in "magic dealer)?
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Re: ERDNASE

Postby Zig Zagger » February 9th, 2020, 1:26 pm

Bill Mullins wrote:
Paco Nagata wrote:
4- Fourth, I think that the backward spelling case is just a coincidence with the German childhood nickname "Erdnase" (the nickname Erdnase in German means 'Earth Nose'), according to the great theory of Chris Wasshuber;


Credit for this insight goes to Tom Sawyer, not Wasshuber.

Ah, "Chris Wasshuber Alert!" buzzing on your phone again, Bill? ;)

I think Paco is just referring to the "Erdnase as nickname" theory here.

That "Erdnase" is a real German noun may be an "insight" to a foreigner, but rather common sense for most (slightly educated) German native speakers.
(There is also an "Erdhase," which, surprisingly, is not a rabbit or hare, but actually some mouse.)
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Re: ERDNASE

Postby Roger M. » February 9th, 2020, 2:46 pm

Richard Kaufman wrote:Well, Roterberg was German, so there's your "earth nose."

That’s it?
May as well say it’s Kirk Douglas ... if he could be Spartacus he could also be Erdnase.

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Re: ERDNASE

Postby Tom Gilbert » February 9th, 2020, 3:40 pm

Would Roterberg or Elliott fit Smith's physical description? I imagine Roterberg would have had an accent for Smith to acknowledge?

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Re: ERDNASE

Postby Roger M. » February 9th, 2020, 4:09 pm

No, he didn't fit Smith's physical description, or even come close.

Smith notes Erdnase as "blondish", and "not having dark hair or eyes" ... Roterberg has dark hair and a huge dark moustache.
Smith also recalls that Erdnase "spoke in good english", Smith also noted that Erdnase didn't have a foreign accent, and that if anything, he had an "American accent" ... Roterberg moved away from Germany as a teenager, and came to America with a noticeable German accent.

All this information is well established in the available literature.

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Re: ERDNASE

Postby Bill Mullins » February 9th, 2020, 4:32 pm

Paco Nagata wrote:5- Fifth, in "New Era Cars Tricks" was published for the first time "Penetration of Matter," the nowadsys famous and popular card trick in which a card penetrates a handkerchief. Well, 5 years late the same trick was published in "The Expert at the Card Table." This trick has not much to do with sleight of hands, so, why the author selected it for that book being so many great card tricks out there related to sleight of hands?


"The Row of Ten Cards" is also a non-sleight trick in Erdnase, and it comes from Hoffmann. So by this logic, Hoffmann is as good a candidate as Roterberg.

To make the case for Roterberg = Erdnase, you have to have a good explanation for why Roterberg didn't simply publish the material under his own name.

And to make the case for Anyone = Erdnase, you have to have a good explanation for why Anyone used the name "S. W. Erdnase". If the author's real name is E. S. Andrews, you have a good explanation -- he reversed his own name to make the pseudonym, a practice that has been used many times by many authors. There's no good explanation for why Roterberg would do this.

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Re: ERDNASE

Postby Bill Mullins » February 9th, 2020, 4:35 pm

Zig Zagger wrote:[
That "Erdnase" is a real German noun may be an "insight" to a foreigner, but rather common sense for most (slightly educated) German native speakers.


Then why did it go unremarked upon in the German literature for 90 years, until an American brought it up in the English literature?

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Re: ERDNASE

Postby Paco Nagata » February 9th, 2020, 4:54 pm

Roger M. wrote:Those are all interesting ideas, indeed most of them have been posited in one form or another before.
However, none of them draw a line between Roterberg and Erdnase/EATCT ... so where are you getting that specific connection from?

I guess that everything that can be said about "Erdnase" may have been already said, so I certainly may have not said nothing new but my personal "vote" from all reflections.
How about doing a POLL? :-)
Regarding some particular connection, maybe the most important one is the writing style, as many researchers have pointed out.
Thank you for telling that those are all interesting ideas, because I thought about some of them in an independent way.
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Re: ERDNASE

Postby Paco Nagata » February 9th, 2020, 5:00 pm

Bill Mullins wrote:Credit for this insight goes to Tom Sawyer, not Wasshuber.

Sorry, I didn't know that.
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Re: ERDNASE

Postby Zig Zagger » February 9th, 2020, 5:07 pm

Bill Mullins wrote:
Zig Zagger wrote:[
That "Erdnase" is a real German noun may be an "insight" to a foreigner, but rather common sense for most (slightly educated) German native speakers.


Then why did it go unremarked upon in the German literature for 90 years, until an American brought it up in the English literature?

Fair question! Sadly, I'm not qualified to give a satisfying answer. My guess is that Erdnase is, at least in its core and for most years, a very American or Anglo-American thing. So I'd also guess there simply is or was no 90 years of Erdnase reception in the German magic literature. Maybe not even 20 years. Perhaps a card expert like Reinhard Müller or Roberto Giobbi or Denis Behr could give an answer when Erdnase became a hot topic in German circles, if ever?

But I remember when I was a late teen or young twen, I saw a paperback edition of Erdnase advertised in a magic catalog and I looked at the title, only mildly interested, and said to myself, "Funny, this guy seems to have a very unusual German name!" Maybe I even thought that this strange name probably wasn't real. But I wouldn't take any credit for this "insight." Which is not a statement against Tom Sawyer and his fine research.
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Re: ERDNASE

Postby Paco Nagata » February 9th, 2020, 5:12 pm

Bill Mullins wrote:To make the case for Roterberg = Erdnase, you have to have a good explanation for why Roterberg didn't simply publish the material under his own name.

Maybe he was afraid of gamblers. Gamblers may think that he was making fun exposing those sleights. As far as I know the book wasn't written as a card magic book, but as an exposing card cheating book.
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Re: ERDNASE

Postby Paco Nagata » February 9th, 2020, 5:47 pm

Zig Zagger wrote:On the other hand, Erdnase was apparently very proud of his own creations. Being a tiny bit of a creator myself, I'd have a hard time believing that you would attach a totally unrelated name to your brain child (like the S.W.E. Shift). Hence I would argue that, no matter what the real meaning behind it, S.W.E. had a significant meaning for the author. (This certainly would have worked for JameS W. E_lliott.)

That's a good one!
Maybe that's a clue about some theories that says it was written by more than one author, hence, the anonymity of the book.
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Re: ERDNASE

Postby Richard Kaufman » February 9th, 2020, 6:13 pm

Erdnase was Harry Kellar.
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Re: ERDNASE

Postby performer » February 9th, 2020, 8:02 pm

I have always been baffled as to why anyone cares who the hell Erdnase was...............

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Re: ERDNASE

Postby Joe Lyons » February 9th, 2020, 8:29 pm

performer wrote:I have always been baffled as to why anyone cares who the hell Erdnase was...............

Who loves a mystery more than magicians?

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Re: ERDNASE

Postby performer » February 9th, 2020, 9:07 pm

I don't think I do. I often see tricks that I have no idea how they are done. However, I don't care how they are done either. I haven't the slightest interest in secrets. I probably did when I was young. Not any more though.

As to who Erdnase was it seems to me that it was not a card cheat since card cheats do not know all those fancy moves. I am sure it was some well known card magician of the time. And I have always had a psychic vibe that it was written in a different time period than it was supposed to be written. No evidence whatsoever for this and I have no idea why I am saying it. Just a gut feeling or hunch. Psychics get things like this all the time and they don't know where it comes from. It might just happen that one day you will find out that I was right all along.

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Re: ERDNASE

Postby Jack Shalom » February 9th, 2020, 10:11 pm

Being a tiny bit of a creator myself, I'd have a hard time believing that you would attach a totally unrelated name to your brain child (like the S.W.E. Shift). Hence I would argue that, no matter what the real meaning behind it, S.W.E. had a significant meaning for the author. (This certainly would have worked for JameS W. E_lliott.)


If one is going to take the SWE Shift clue seriously, then this: it's a shift, i.e a cut, not backwards and not leaving it alone. Hence shifting SWE gives you WES. Which would seem to favor the WE Sanders theory.

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Re: ERDNASE

Postby Denis Behr » February 10th, 2020, 2:54 am

Zig Zagger wrote:
Bill Mullins wrote:
Zig Zagger wrote:That "Erdnase" is a real German noun may be an "insight" to a foreigner, but rather common sense for most (slightly educated) German native speakers.

Then why did it go unremarked upon in the German literature for 90 years, until an American brought it up in the English literature?

Fair question! Sadly, I'm not qualified to give a satisfying answer.

I don't know either. I assume that book wasn't that known or discussed. But it's literally the first thing a German speaker will think of. It's the same as choosing "S.W. Earthnose" as a name, you cannot miss it.

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Re: ERDNASE

Postby Zig Zagger » February 10th, 2020, 3:20 am

Richard Kaufman wrote:Erdnase was Harry Kellar.

Says who?

Karr, or Kaufman, or Milky the Clown??? :shock:
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Re: ERDNASE

Postby Zig Zagger » February 10th, 2020, 3:34 am

Jack Shalom wrote:
Being a tiny bit of a creator myself, I'd have a hard time believing that you would attach a totally unrelated name to your brain child (like the S.W.E. Shift). Hence I would argue that, no matter what the real meaning behind it, S.W.E. had a significant meaning for the author. (This certainly would have worked for JameS W. E_lliott.)


If one is going to take the SWE Shift clue seriously, then this: it's a shift, i.e a cut, not backwards and not leaving it alone. Hence shifting SWE gives you WES. Which would seem to favor the WE Sanders theory.

True, Jack, but the same theory could also produce and justify the outcome ESW.

SWE could also stand for South-West-East, thus pointing towards North(ern)... Who knows?

But with the wealth of research going on, I‘m positive we will bust Erdnase with conclusive evidence in the years ahead!
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Re: ERDNASE

Postby Paco Nagata » February 10th, 2020, 9:05 am

Richard Kaufman wrote:Erdnase was Harry Kellar.

Oh man! I thought I was a connoisseur of magic history as I have read quite a lot about magic, however I see that my knowledge about magic is not so good... I have never heard about Harry Kellar! I have google it and now I can say I know more about magic...
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Re: ERDNASE

Postby Richard Kaufman » February 10th, 2020, 1:11 pm

Harry Kellar was famous for having no digital ability as a magician.
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Re: ERDNASE

Postby Zig Zagger » February 10th, 2020, 2:09 pm

Paco, I think the Chief Genii was just mocking the recent discussions here with one of the most improbable candidates ever. ;)
Or, he was just trying to misdirect us, to keep us away from the new hottest candidate...

Apart from that, it certainly doesn't hurt to learn a bit more about the Golden (Non-Card) Age of Magic and the likes of Alexander Herrmann, Kellar, Thurston, or Dante.
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Re: ERDNASE

Postby PavelTheGreat » February 10th, 2020, 4:27 pm

I read much mention of "Earth Nose" but nowhere do I see what is the meaning. I realise is German sobriquet, but definition is unclear.

What did this mean at time when book was published? The answer to this question might help to identify the author.

He is calling himself this, so is not likely to be an insult. What could this signify in positive way?

Advocates of the Sanders fellow say it relate to mining industry. I think this is very tenuous suggestion.

It must be nick-name given by close friends, or a kind of self-flattery.

If Sanders were Erdnase, this name would be unlikely, as he had no experiences that we know of German companions. From what I learn, he would probably make name from classic language like Latin, or romance language like French. Why German unless intimate connection with that country?

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Re: ERDNASE

Postby Paco Nagata » February 10th, 2020, 5:17 pm

Zig Zagger wrote:Paco, I think the Chief Genii was just mocking the recent discussions here with one of the most improbable candidates ever. ;)
Or, he was just trying to misdirect us, to keep us away from the new hottest candidate...

Apart from that, it certainly doesn't hurt to learn a bit more about the Golden (Non-Card) Age of Magic and the likes of Alexander Herrmann, Kellar, Thurston, or Dante.

I see!
I get it now! :D
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Re: ERDNASE

Postby Bill Mullins » February 10th, 2020, 5:22 pm

PavelTheGreat wrote:If Sanders were Erdnase, this [German] name would be unlikely, as he had no experiences that we know of German companions. From what I learn, he would probably make name from classic language like Latin, or romance language like French. Why German unless intimate connection with that country?


Sanders was trained as a mining engineer in the 1880s at Columbia College in New York. At that time, the ability to read and write in German was an important part of the engineering curriculum - German was the dominant language in the hard sciences, as English is today. Sanders would have been able to read, write and speak in German.

The 1881-82 Register for Columbia is online. Sanders was a student at this time (see p. 47.) Pages 38-40 are the faculty for the school of mines, and Frederick Stengel is listed as "Instructor in German."

In addition, as a mining engineer, his job was to "sniff out" valuable ores (and that is exactly what he did after graduating -- he roamed the west looking for good spots to put mines). Thus, "earth nose" is an appropriate nickname for him, especially since "S. W. Erdnase" is an anagram of his own name, W. E. Sanders.

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Re: ERDNASE

Postby Bill Mullins » February 10th, 2020, 5:40 pm

(Missed the edit window)
In addition, Marty Demarest's original article on Sanders (Genii, Sep 2011) points out that before Sanders went to Columbia, he was tutored in German at home, and also studied German at the Wooster School of Language in 1879.

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Re: ERDNASE

Postby Bob Coyne » February 10th, 2020, 6:59 pm

In addition to the connection between Erdnase/earth-nose and Sanders' knowledge of German and profession of a prospector and mining engineer, there's another significant tie-in between Erdnase and mining. In the trick The Divining Rod, the patter centers around a mining-related theme, where a pen knife magically locates a spectators hidden/lost card, much as a divining rod would detect precious metals.

PavelTheGreat

Re: ERDNASE

Postby PavelTheGreat » February 10th, 2020, 9:16 pm

Bill Mullins wrote:
PavelTheGreat wrote:If Sanders were Erdnase, this [German] name would be unlikely, as he had no experiences that we know of German companions. From what I learn, he would probably make name from classic language like Latin, or romance language like French. Why German unless intimate connection with that country?


Sanders was trained as a mining engineer in the 1880s at Columbia College in New York. At that time, the ability to read and write in German was an important part of the engineering curriculum - German was the dominant language in the hard sciences, as English is today. Sanders would have been able to read, write and speak in German.

The 1881-82 Register for Columbia is online. Sanders was a student at this time (see p. 47.) Pages 38-40 are the faculty for the school of mines, and Frederick Stengel is listed as "Instructor in German."

In addition, as a mining engineer, his job was to "sniff out" valuable ores (and that is exactly what he did after graduating -- he roamed the west looking for good spots to put mines). Thus, "earth nose" is an appropriate nickname for him, especially since "S. W. Erdnase" is an anagram of his own name, W. E. Sanders.


Yes, but my question is about the colloquial meaning of the phrase which in English is called "Earth Nose". I think better translation would be "Dirt Nose". I suspect usage of this term by average person had no relation to mining business.

Far more likely that this name was a sort of friendly teasing, like "Stinky", perhaps from childhood rather than adult career.

And who would call this Sanders "Earth Nose" just because he studied German language? As you say, it was for technical use, not so much for fun.


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