ERDNASE

Discuss general aspects of Genii.
Bill Mullins
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Re: ERDNASE

Postby Bill Mullins » April 2nd, 2018, 3:58 pm

Zenner wrote:[Erdnase] knew how to market a book!


???? There's no evidence to support this. The marketing that we know about is minimal, and none of it seems to be from the author.

lybrary wrote: To self-publish a book like Expert requires not only the means to understand the contents, but also the means to do the writing and to do the self-publishing, two things that are not easy. . . . For Gallaway we have proof that he did self-publish some of his writings.


Are you saying that you can't self-publish a book unless you know how to self-publish a book? Then how do you do your first book? This is circular logic.

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Re: ERDNASE

Postby lybrary » April 2nd, 2018, 4:25 pm

Bill Mullins wrote:Are you saying that you can't self-publish a book unless you know how to self-publish a book? Then how do you do your first book? This is circular logic.
No that is not what I am saying. Having no self-publishing history is not ground to exclude somebody. But having evidence of self-publishing makes a case a lot stronger, because it removes an element of uncertainty. One has to be able to explain why somebody would self-publish in the first place, and if he had the means and knowledge to do so. Going the self-publishing route is not necessarily the first choice for everybody. Most books are not self-published. The better a candidate can explain this choice the better for the case.
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Re: ERDNASE

Postby Leonard Hevia » April 2nd, 2018, 4:30 pm

Innovators in the field of printing from the late 19th to early 20th century history of printing:

1. Hugo Brehmer 1884: Develops the first mechanical thread-based sewing machine for bookbinding.
2. Linn Boyd Benton 1885: Invents the pantographic punch cutter. With this machine, an operator can trace the brass pattern of a letter with one arm of the device.
3. Ottmar Mergenthaler 1886: Invents the Linotype composing machine. With this typesetter, an operator can enter text using a 90-character keyboard.
4. Charles and Alfred Harris 1895: Found the Harris Automatic Press Company to market the first printing press with an automatic sheet feeder.
5. Tolbert Lanston 1896: in Washington D.C. (with his company) builds its first hot metal typesetting machine.
6. August Kolbus 1900: Develops and builds a book spine rounding and surface pressing machine.
7. Ira Washington Rubel 1903: Accidentally discovers that printing from the rubber impression roller instead of the stone plate of his lithographic press produces a clearer and sharper printed page. Based on this finding and after further refinement, the Potter Press Printing Company in New York produces the first lithographic offset press for paper.
8. Samuel Simon 1907: Is awarded a patent for the process of using silk fabric as a printing screen.

...I don't see Gallaway.

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Re: ERDNASE

Postby lybrary » April 2nd, 2018, 4:43 pm

There were a lot more innovations in the print industry than the ones you list.
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Re: ERDNASE

Postby Leonard Hevia » April 2nd, 2018, 4:49 pm

lybrary wrote:There were a lot more innovations in the print industry than the ones you list.


Absolutely--by all means, feel at liberty to add number 9 on that brief list:

9. Edward Gallaway (date): Invented...revolutionized...

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Re: ERDNASE

Postby Bill Mullins » April 2nd, 2018, 5:19 pm

lybrary wrote:On top of this you have no evidence that he kept up his German. He graduated from the school of mines in 1885. The German magic books we are talking about were published 1895-1901, that is a decade or more later. What evidence do you have that Sanders kept up his German?


The last evidence we have of Gallaway doing anything German was when he typeset at the German newspaper, wasn't it? That was 1886/1887, when he was 18. Sanders entered college proficient in German (he had to be able to read this) in 1881, at age 20. So for all we know, Sanders kept up his German longer in life than Gallaway did.

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Re: ERDNASE

Postby lybrary » April 2nd, 2018, 5:40 pm

Bill Mullins wrote:The last evidence we have of Gallaway doing anything German was when he typeset at the German newspaper, wasn't it? That was 1886/1887, when he was 18. Sanders entered college proficient in German (he had to be able to read this) in 1881, at age 20. So for all we know, Sanders kept up his German longer in life than Gallaway did.
There is a big difference between learning a language as a kid or learning one to pass a university entrance exam. I have very good personal experience with this. My son went to a French bilingual school up to the end of middle-school and then to a regular non-bilingual American high-school. Even though we don't speak any French at home his French proficiency is essentially on a native speaker level. This is very similar to Gallaway who went to a German bilingual school up to the end of middle-school. He even was recognized in the newspaper as a honor student of German.

When I was in my 20s I passed the entrance exam into Tokyo University which included a Japanese language proficiency test. I passed it and entered Tokyo University as student where I studied for two years. When I returned I did not keep up my Japanese and a few years later I lost a good 70% of what I knew. Unless one practices a language which one learns later in life one will not keep it. I couldn't hope to read any Japanese book today except the ones they make for little kids and even those with great difficulty.

When Gallaway was 20 he was typesetter at a German newspaper in Indiana (that was up to 1889). To be a typesetter you need to be fluent. When he returned to Delphos he was planning to start a German newspaper in Delphos with a friend, but in the end decided to go to Fort Payne to start a different newspaper there. So we know that Gallaway was absolutely proficient in German, on the level of a native speaker. Who else would typeset at or plan to start a German newspaper? There is no comparison with Sanders passing a German entrance exam without knowledge what he did with the German he learned in school.
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Re: ERDNASE

Postby jkeyes1000 » April 2nd, 2018, 6:00 pm

To "self-publish" can mean as little as to pay for the design, the printing, and the distribution of a book. The author can do it personally, or hire someone to do any or all of the work.

But we are told that the illustrator, Mr. Smith, met with the author of EATCT on several occasions, in Chicago. This would strongly suggest that "Erdnase" either lived in that city, or was there for the purpose of designing the layout.

Now, this whole process (having someone draw the pictures, then talking to the printer about where to place them, negotiating the cost of paper and ink, labour, etc., would take months at least. Especially at Chicago, where a printer would have plenty of other orders to deal with.

Was Sanders in Chicago for any significant length of time in 1901 or 1902? We can be fairly sure that both Gallaway and Benedict were.

And who was it that copyrighted the book? I forget. If it was the printer (McKinney), or anyone associated with the firm, then for all intents and purposes, they were the publishers.

Which points to Gallaway.

In other words, the combination of printing and copyrighting the book is as good as publishing it. And they might well have had a deal with Benedict to distribute it.

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Re: ERDNASE

Postby Leonard Hevia » April 2nd, 2018, 6:14 pm

lybrary wrote:To say that Sanders' mine timbering article is on the level of Erdnase is silly. It is not on Erdnase's level in terms of its writing (linguistics) and not on the level of importance (contents).


I disagree--Sanders mine timbering article reflects Erdnasian traits:

"...for the student,...a brief, concise, and clear statement of conditions involved in the problem under consideration is always an aid to the understanding when entering upon a new field."

"...the illustrations are well chosen, and all of the drawings are exceptionally clear and distinct."


McCaustland's review could just as well be describing the The Expert if you transpose the subject from mine timbering to card sleights and false shuffles. Indeed, the beauty of The Expert is that it is so clear and concise. Those that purchased Revelations when it was published in 1984 were disappointed at the sparseness of the Professor's annotations. It was a testament to The Expert's clarity and conciseness that Vernon had little to add to its pages.

And linguistically speaking, Sanders was far more on the level of Erdnase than Gallaway. You have yet to provide that list of uncommon words that were shared by Sanders and Erdnase and provide a similar list detailing the percentage of use between Gallaway and Erdnase. I suspect that Gallaway shares practically nothing with Erdnase from that list of uncommon words. The most direct answer for your failure to provide that list is that Gallaway was not Erdnase, and the data just isn't there.

And I don't understand the (lack of?) importance you place in Sanders' career as a mining engineer. He was successful in the sense that he eventually found large deposits of precious metals that made him to a certain extent wealthy. In the end, that is the goal of a miner: to ascertain where the precious metals are located beneath the earth. It certainly isn't a prerequisite to be a trailblazer in one vocation in order to write a book that advances another.

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Re: ERDNASE

Postby Bob Coyne » April 2nd, 2018, 6:21 pm

jkeyes1000 wrote:Was Sanders in Chicago for any significant length of time in 1901 or 1902? We can be fairly sure that both Gallaway and Benedict were.


Paraphrasing from Marty's article: Sanders' parents spent the winter (1901-1902) in Chicago for an extended medical-related stay. Sanders, himself, was known to have visited Chicago many times on his cross country visits. He had even dealt with printers there, ordering stationary.

So seems like he had familiarity and access. No direct evidence he was there or not at that particular time but every reason to believe he easily could have been (and had motivation to be, given his parent's stay).

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Re: ERDNASE

Postby lybrary » April 2nd, 2018, 6:51 pm

Leonard Hevia wrote:And I don't understand the (lack of?) importance you place in Sanders' career as a mining engineer. He was successful in the sense that he eventually found large deposits of precious metals that made him to a certain extent wealthy. In the end, that is the goal of a miner: to ascertain where the precious metals are located beneath the earth. It certainly isn't a prerequisite to be a trailblazer in one vocation in order to write a book that advances another.
To a good part you are making my point. Sanders was a miner, somebody who prospects, is outside in the wilderness trying to find deposits of precious metals he can mine. He is a guy with a shovel and whatever other tools miners used those days. His notebooks mirror those outdoor activities. He likes to be outdoors. That is why he became a miner in the first place. Yes, he went to university and got an education because his parents required that from him, but his nature is that of an outdoor creature. If he could he would leave all that behind to be in the wilderness. Erdnase is somebody entirely different. He is a bookish person who reads a lot, he is somebody who writes very well suggesting that he did do a lot of writing. I just can't see any Erdnase in Sanders unless you only look at him from a 40,000 feet perspective. Yeah sure, Sanders did a good amount of writing but his technical writing is just not on the level of Erdnase no matter how many poems you like to introduce. Sanders would not turn to self-publish a book to raise funds. He would prospect for metals or do some other mine related stuff. Or perhaps he could tap the old guy and get money from him.
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Re: ERDNASE

Postby Bob Coyne » April 2nd, 2018, 7:27 pm

lybrary wrote:
Leonard Hevia wrote:And I don't understand the (lack of?) importance you place in Sanders' career as a mining engineer. He was successful in the sense that he eventually found large deposits of precious metals that made him to a certain extent wealthy. In the end, that is the goal of a miner: to ascertain where the precious metals are located beneath the earth. It certainly isn't a prerequisite to be a trailblazer in one vocation in order to write a book that advances another.
To a good part you are making my point. Sanders was a miner, somebody who prospects, is outside in the wilderness trying to find deposits of precious metals he can mine. He is a guy with a shovel and whatever other tools miners used those days. His notebooks mirror those outdoor activities. He likes to be outdoors. That is why he became a miner in the first place. Yes, he went to university and got an education because his parents required that from him, but his nature is that of an outdoor creature. If he could he would leave all that behind to be in the wilderness. Erdnase is somebody entirely different. He is a bookish person who reads a lot, he is somebody who writes very well suggesting that he did do a lot of writing. I just can't see any Erdnase in Sanders unless you only look at him from a 40,000 feet perspective. Yeah sure, Sanders did a good amount of writing but his technical writing is just not on the level of Erdnase no matter how many poems you like to introduce. Sanders would not turn to self-publish a book to raise funds. He would prospect for metals or do some other mine related stuff. Or perhaps he could tap the old guy and get money from him.


Have you read Sander's Montana history article? It shows quite a bit of scholarship and erudition. e.g. He quotes latin writers, explores the etymology of words, details historical developments, etc. Did Gallaway write anything close to that?

I believe Sanders' notebooks are all from a relatively young age, correct? Not having seen them, I don't know how you can extrapolate into his adulthood. His other writings show him to be very skilled with language and someone whose voice/style and lexical choices match Erdnase to a remarkable extent.

Erdnase doesn't sound particularly "bookish" to me. There are few references that imply a life in a library. He seems like a very intelligent, knowledgable, and well educated man of the world...someone who thinks for himself. You actually find more bookishness in Sanders (in his Montana article) because the topic at hand warranted it.

I'm puzzled why you think Erdnase is bookish...that's about the last thing I'd accuse him of being. But if you want to compare literary or historical references in their texts, Sanders has way more. But again that's irrelevant. Both were highly perceptive men who could wield a pen and convey their thoughts with style and precision.

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Re: ERDNASE

Postby Zenner » April 2nd, 2018, 7:32 pm

Bob Coyne wrote:
Zenner wrote:I don't believe that he was a gambler at all. He was a magician who had studied the methods of card manipulation and then poured all of his knowledge into a book aimed at the broadest possible readership. No gambler uses every sleight and every variation - The Expert is an encyclopedia based on a lot of research. Who would do such research? Only a magician...


I think he was above all an "Expert" (in sleight of hand with cards) as opposed to being primarily either a magician or gambler. His true love was in perfecting technique ("artistic card handling") that he applied to either. He looked at card sleights as artistry, so that defined his approach to both gambling and magic.

"the handling of the deck should be as open and ARTISTIC as possible. "
"A more ARTISTIC method of locating and securing cards"
"to throw them on the discard heap when making his own discard, is INARTISTIC, and risky, and unworthy of any but
a neophyte or a bungler"

etc

My sense, though, is that he had more experience at the card table than as a performing magician. It seems to me that as a magician he was an amateur in highest sense (like Dai Vernon). But unlike Vernon, he had a deep grounding in actual card cheating as a professional and probably thought of himself more as a card cheat than a magician.


Really Bob? You think that a professional gambler would advise a neophyte gambler to handle playing cards artistically? No way! That would only bring attention to himself. Your quotations are from a PERFORMER advising someone who wants to be a PERFORMER, someone who wants to bring attention to himself!
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Re: ERDNASE

Postby Leonard Hevia » April 2nd, 2018, 7:34 pm

lybrary wrote:To a good part you are making my point. Sanders was a miner, somebody who prospects, is outside in the wilderness trying to find deposits of precious metals he can mine. He is a guy with a shovel and whatever other tools miners used those days. His notebooks mirror those outdoor activities. He likes to be outdoors.


Except that outdoor activities and card manipulation are not mutually exclusive. Sanders didn't think so either when he purchased those six decks of playing cards to take with him on that camping trip to the Rockies. He's a guy with a shovel and playing cards.




lybrary wrote:If he could he would leave all that behind to be in the wilderness.


?

lybrary wrote:Erdnase is somebody entirely different. He is a bookish person who reads a lot, he is somebody who writes very well suggesting that he did do a lot of writing.


Sanders did quite a bit of writing as well. From 1899 on, he wrote and published under his own name approximately 42 pages of poetry, and 202 pages of prose that range from histories and biographies to technical essays, public reports, and patents. His survivng diaries are scattered throughout 12 volumes.


lybrary wrote:Sanders would not turn to self-publish a book to raise funds. He would prospect for metals or do some other mine related stuff. Or perhaps he could tap the old guy and get money from him.


In essence, you have made Alexander's point in his Genii article about Sanders: He didn't need the money. The Expert was a vanity project and Erdnase self-published it because, as Alexander notes, he wanted the book to express precisely what he wanted to convey, and didn't want it watered down by a publisher so that it would appeal to a larger market.

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Re: ERDNASE

Postby Bob Coyne » April 2nd, 2018, 7:49 pm

Zenner wrote:
Bob Coyne wrote:I think he was above all an "Expert" (in sleight of hand with cards) as opposed to being primarily either a magician or gambler. His true love was in perfecting technique ("artistic card handling") that he applied to either. He looked at card sleights as artistry, so that defined his approach to both gambling and magic.

"the handling of the deck should be as open and ARTISTIC as possible. "
"A more ARTISTIC method of locating and securing cards"
"to throw them on the discard heap when making his own discard, is INARTISTIC, and risky, and unworthy of any but
a neophyte or a bungler"

etc

My sense, though, is that he had more experience at the card table than as a performing magician. It seems to me that as a magician he was an amateur in highest sense (like Dai Vernon). But unlike Vernon, he had a deep grounding in actual card cheating as a professional and probably thought of himself more as a card cheat than a magician.


Really Bob? You think that a professional gambler would advise a neophyte gambler to handle playing cards artistically? No way! That would only bring attention to himself. Your quotations are from a PERFORMER advising someone who wants to be a PERFORMER, someone who wants to bring attention to himself!


I think you somehow missed my point. It seems to me that he thought of himself (his "identity") as neither magician nor gambler but as a sleight of hand expert, who aspired to the highest levels of artistry in that medium. That's why he focuses on technique and covers the "whole calendar" of sleights. That's very different than being at heart a performer. His ego was invested in the sleights and how well he performed them, not in how much money he won at the table or how many audiences he wowed.

As for his actual profession (if that's what you could call it), based on the emphasis in the book, it definitely seems to be more on the gambling than magic end. If he was Sanders, he probably integrated the gambling into the constant travels and mining work. That seems very compatible.

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Re: ERDNASE

Postby jkeyes1000 » April 2nd, 2018, 8:12 pm

Here is my objection to the theory that Sanders "self published" EATCT.

First, if he didn't bother to copyright it, then we may assume that he sold it to someone else (McKinney?). Why then, would he exert himself to demonstrate all the moves to the illustrator? If all he cared about was getting it published, he could have stayed home.

In any case, if Sanders relinquished the copyright, he could hardly call himself "the publisher'. He is not likely to have paid for the printing if he transferred the copyright to someone else. The legal owner of the copyright would be "the publisher".

So, when Erdnase says he published it himself, he must be in partnership with the copyright holder.

The most likely person to be in partnership with the printer/publisher is Gallaway. He might have persuaded his employer to print EATCT in exchange for a number of free copies that he could sell, or promised to work on another project without pay., etc.

I can imagine Gallaway making a deal with his boss in order to print the book, but I cannot see Sanders engaging in this kind of barter.

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Re: ERDNASE

Postby lybrary » April 2nd, 2018, 8:41 pm

Leonard Hevia wrote:Sanders did quite a bit of writing as well. From 1899 on, he wrote and published under his own name approximately 42 pages of poetry, and 202 pages of prose that range from histories and biographies to technical essays, public reports, and patents. His survivng diaries are scattered throughout 12 volumes.
None of his writing was for pay. I believe Erdnase when he writes that he did it for the money, because we have Smith corroborating this. Gardner noted that Smith stated about Erdnase: "...he [was] anxious to save his money." Erdnase wanted to produce the book on as low a budget as he could because he needed the money. He turned to writing a book, because he was a skilled writer and had written other stuff for pay before. No complicated theories are necessary. Most everything is right there in the evidence. Gallaway wrote for newspapers, his own and others. And I strongly believe he is Eugene Edwards and thus wrote Jackpots for pay for Jamieson-Higgins who published it in 1900. He then felt that he could make more money self-publishing his next book, so he did with Expert. Gallaway continued to write a lot, because he is a writer, several hundred pages training course for R.R. Donnelley, two books for his own school, and we have found last week something else ...
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Re: ERDNASE

Postby Leonard Hevia » April 2nd, 2018, 9:13 pm

lybrary wrote:None of his writing was for pay.


Not true. He filed an uncounted amount of reports for the mining companies that employed him later in life.


lybrary wrote:I believe Erdnase when he writes that he did it for the money, because we have Smith corroborating this. Gardner noted that Smith stated about Erdnase: "...he [was] anxious to save his money."


You don't know much about the publishing business do you? Alexander notes:

Anyone experienced in publishing will tell you that publishing and selling a book to a small market is not the way to fast money. Since the publishing process began before Christmas but the book was not copyrighted until late February 1902--a process that required the finished book to be submitted with the copyright application--it is clear that it was not a rush job. Someone who "needs the money" does not engage in a project that requires he spend money upfront, then not have the product for nearly three months, a product that he will then have to distribute and sell before the money he spent to print the books is recouped and any profit is realized.

What Smith perceived as Erdnase's frugality was a healthy respect for money on a project that was never intended to make a profit.

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Re: ERDNASE

Postby lybrary » April 2nd, 2018, 9:30 pm

Leonard Hevia wrote:You don't know much about the publishing business do you?
You are really cute. I am a publisher now for two decades, both with my own company as well as employed by the largest academic publisher.
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Re: ERDNASE

Postby jkeyes1000 » April 2nd, 2018, 10:10 pm

Leonard: If Sanders wrote the book, and was concerned with publishing it according to his own specifications, then why would he give up the copyright?

He would no longer have authority over it.

He would be working for the copyright holder, and could not be sure of what the new owner would do with the book.

The only way Sanders could have "published" EATCT himself, is to have let McKinney (or whoever it was) take possession of the copyright, work with Smith to provide the illustrations, and probably pay for the printing as well.

Is that how you see it?

Knowing the publishing business as I do, it is not likely that McKinney had much interest in buying the rights to EATCT, nor even in printing the book in exchange for them. Sanders would have laboured on the project, paid for it, and promptly abandoned it.

Far more likely, in my opinion, that Gallaway convinced his employer to print EATCT in consideration for a share in the sales, and/or a commitment to work unpaid for a while.
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Re: ERDNASE

Postby Jackpot » April 2nd, 2018, 10:24 pm

Mr. Keyes: Who says the author gave up the copyright? The book was published under a pseudonym. If your are saying that Sanders gave up the copyright wouldn't the same true for Galloway?
Not the one who created the Potter Index.

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Re: ERDNASE

Postby lybrary » April 2nd, 2018, 10:29 pm

Leonard Hevia wrote:An employee of McKinney fits wonderfully as an Erdnase? Don't be a moron. You should know that the material in The Expert reflects a far more sophisticated thinker, perhaps that of an engineer than a mere employee of a printing company.
You are an ignorant fool. Gallaway was an engineer. Also printers have traditionally been some of the most informed people in society, because they get to read a lot. Here are some quotes from Gallaway's writings:

The students of Printing Practice who intend to become estimators should realize that they are to be printing engineers and when once in possession of all the facts must form a mental picture of the job as it is to be completed.

The duties of an engineer in this department are not routine, in that he has no direct responsibility in getting the work through the plant nor does he assume any foremanship responsibilities for maintenance of discipline.

In a word, imposition is an engineering problem, and the estimator is a printing engineer.

But it does tell you in understandable English and in the arithmetic of the business man how to engineer the manufacture of a prospective job of printing and how to determine the price for which it should sell.

If there is any one word in the printing industry that may be designated as being synonymous with “engineering," that one word is "imposition.”

It will be handled from the estimator's or printing engineer's point of view,
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Re: ERDNASE

Postby jkeyes1000 » April 2nd, 2018, 10:55 pm

Jackpot wrote:Mr. Keyes: Who says the author gave up the copyright? The book was published under a pseudonym. If your are saying that Sanders gave up the copyright wouldn't the same true for Galloway?


As I understand it, the copyright file for EATCT is not in Sanders' name. If the name on file is not the author's, I presume he gave or sold the manuscript to someone else. I don't see the use in copyrighting a book under an assumed name. It would be rather difficult to protect one's work that way. And even if one could, he would need to reveal his true identity, after all.

Galloway might have been less concerned with vanity, and more with cashing in. He might not have seen the project as a labour of love, but as a way to print free copies of the book so he could make money "on the side". He might have given the rights to his boss (or whoever it was), or simply let the printer do as he liked.

My point is that even if Sanders did "need the money" (which his proponents seem to doubt), it would surely have cost him a great deal in time, money and effort, for which he might never have been rewarded. Whereas Gallaway could have got the job done for his labour alone, enabling him to potentially earn a few bucks.
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Re: ERDNASE

Postby Leonard Hevia » April 2nd, 2018, 10:56 pm

lybrary wrote:You are an ignorant fool. Gallaway was an engineer.


A printing engineer? An employee of a printing company, and a print estimator. The primary responsibility of the print estimator is to develop cost estimates on routine and complex jobs as required by customer's request. Unless you can provide evidence that Galloway graduated college with an engineering degree, I will adhere to that. And those writing examples you submitted don't mirror Erdnase in any fashion.

If I was an ignorant fool, I would have purchased your Gallaway e-book.

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Re: ERDNASE

Postby lybrary » April 2nd, 2018, 11:10 pm

Leonard Hevia wrote:Unless you can provide evidence that Galloway graduated college with an engineering degree, I will adhere to that.
You really know nothing. Are you still in middle-school? Engineers don't need to go to college, particularly 140 years ago. For example, I received an engineering degree from a technical high-school. I think here in the US many engineers get their education from trade schools. Back then engineers typically learned via some kind of apprenticeship.
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Re: ERDNASE

Postby jkeyes1000 » April 3rd, 2018, 12:08 am

I just found the old thread on this forum that says that the copyright file for EATCT gives McKinney's address for "Erdnase".

If Sanders wrote the book, and he had filed for copyright, why would he state the printing house to be his residence?

I think it's fairly obvious that McKinney owned a controlling interest in the book, if not the whole thing. Question is: with whom is he more likely to have been a partner--Sanders or Gallaway (and/or Benedict)?

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Re: ERDNASE

Postby Jackpot » April 3rd, 2018, 12:43 am

jkeyes1000 wrote:I just found the old thread on this forum that says that the copyright file for EATCT gives McKinney's address for "Erdnase".

If Sanders wrote the book, and he had filed for copyright, why would he state the printing house to be his residence?

I think it's fairly obvious that McKinney owned a controlling interest in the book, if not the whole thing. Question is: with whom is he more likely to have been a partner--Sanders or Gallaway (and/or Benedict)?


It appears that whoever wrote the book used a pseudonym to hide his identity. He probably also likely did not use his own address so that the work was less likely to be traced back to him.

It is not an uncommon for authors using pseudonyms to have their publisher apply for the copyright. McKinney was the printer and served a somewhat similar function for this self-published book.

I do not find it fairly obvious that McKinney owned a controlling interest in the book. If he did, why would he not file for the copyright himself?
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Re: ERDNASE

Postby magicam » April 3rd, 2018, 1:44 am

jkeyes1000 wrote:To "self-publish" can mean as little as to pay for the design, the printing, and the distribution of a book.

Actually, just that "little" -- paying for the book production costs -- defines the publisher. S/he who pays is the publisher. Not all publishers distribute their books.

jkeyes1000 wrote:In other words, the combination of printing and copyrighting the book is as good as publishing it.
Not the case. See above.

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Re: ERDNASE

Postby performer » April 3rd, 2018, 1:59 am

Leonard Hevia wrote:[

And I don't understand the (lack of?) importance you place in Sanders' career as a mining engineer. He was successful in the sense that he eventually found large deposits of precious metals that made him to a certain extent wealthy. In the end, that is the goal of a miner: to ascertain where the precious metals are located beneath the earth. It certainly isn't a prerequisite to be a trailblazer in one vocation in order to write a book that advances another.



I found this bit interesting. If Sanders was "to a certain extent wealthy" why would he say in the Erdnase book that he "needed the money"? That doesn't make a lot of sense to me.

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Re: ERDNASE

Postby jkeyes1000 » April 3rd, 2018, 8:05 am

magicam wrote:
jkeyes1000 wrote:To "self-publish" can mean as little as to pay for the design, the printing, and the distribution of a book.

Actually, just that "little" -- paying for the book production costs -- defines the publisher. S/he who pays is the publisher. Not all publishers distribute their books.

jkeyes1000 wrote:In other words, the combination of printing and copyrighting the book is as good as publishing it.
Not the case. See above.


You could say that you "published" a book just by printing it and plunking it down on someone's coffee table, but if you are serious about selling it, you need to distribute it.

Many naive publishers, new to the business, have gone bankrupt because of inadequate distribution.

A wise publisher has his distribution system set up before he invests in the printing.

When I said that the combination of copyright holder and printer is effectively the publisher, I meant this individual (or corporation) owns the material. Therefore, he (or it) is responsible for the cost of production and distribution.

I don't see how someone like Sanders (or any independent author) could file for copyright, giving a false name and a false address. Can you imagine how he might identify himself if he needed to? He would have to rely on the company whose address he gave, to vouch for him. There's precious little chance that the owner of that business will honour the agreement. And what would happen if the firm went out of business? Poof! No copyright.

If Sanders wrote it, and wanted it copyrighted, he could easily have made better arrangements.

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Re: ERDNASE

Postby Leonard Hevia » April 3rd, 2018, 11:13 am

lybrary wrote:You really know nothing. Are you still in middle-school?

Sharp enough to avoid your Gallaway ebook. The $45.00 asking price is ridiculous given the weakness of your case. Even a middle school dropout could see the glaring holes:

1. No evidence of lexical or linguistic similarities to The Expert in any of his known writings.
2. No evidence that he ever purchase or owned a deck of cards. Not even a scrap of paper or a receipt for a bulk purchase of decks, or even one.
3. No evidence of uncommon Erdnasian words such as longitudinal and invariably in any of Gallaway's writings. Those uncommon words are in theThe Expert and also in Sanders' short Mine Timbering essay.
4. No evidence whatsoever that Gallaway was called Erdnase as a nickname. A foolish idea that was totally made up by you. Now anyone may disagree with the anagram theory that might explain the reason for the name of the author, but at the very least there is concrete evidence that Sanders experimented with anagrams of his own name.
Last edited by Leonard Hevia on April 3rd, 2018, 11:23 am, edited 3 times in total.

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Re: ERDNASE

Postby Leonard Hevia » April 3rd, 2018, 11:19 am

performer wrote:I found this bit interesting. If Sanders was "to a certain extent wealthy" why would he say in the Erdnase book that he "needed the money"? That doesn't make a lot of sense to me.

The author must have felt he needed to give a reason to his readers for the existence of the book. Declaring that he did it for lack of money is a better reason than saying he wrote it to show off his knowledge of card cheating. As Alexander pointed out, profits from the proceeds of the book sales would not appear for months. Anyone in need of money could not afford to wait months.

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Re: ERDNASE

Postby jkeyes1000 » April 3rd, 2018, 11:30 am

Leonard Hevia wrote:
performer wrote:I found this bit interesting. If Sanders was "to a certain extent wealthy" why would he say in the Erdnase book that he "needed the money"? That doesn't make a lot of sense to me.

The author must have felt he needed to give a reason to his readers for the existence of the book. Declaring that he did it for lack of money is a better reason than saying he wrote it to show off his knowledge of card cheating. As Alexander pointed out, profits from the proceeds of the book sales would not appear for months. Anyone in need of money could not afford to wait months.


Not necessarily true, that "Anyone in need of money could not afford to wait for months".

Gallaway, bring employed by McKinney, might have been able to sustain a living, but still require additional funds in order to satisfy debts, or invest in other projects.

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Re: ERDNASE

Postby lybrary » April 3rd, 2018, 11:39 am

Leonard Hevia wrote:3. No evidence of uncommon Erdnasian words such as longitudinal and invariably in any of Gallaway's writings. Those uncommon words are in theThe Expert and also in Sanders' short Mine Timbering essay.
Here you go, since you like these words so much:

Gallaway: A certain amount of paper is invariably wasted or spoiled during the process of manufacture.
Gallaway: Books over an inch in thickness cannot be stitched successfully, so thicker books are invariably patent bound.
Gallaway: Proper names should invariably be printed in handwritten copy and especial care taken not to confuse S and L or the small letters a and c, m and w, and n and u.

Gallaway: This press is equipped with a delivery which omits the longitudinal fold and thus delivers a double­size product with open head.
Gallaway: A long longi­tudinal shaft anchored above and behind the row of boxes carries a number of mechanical gripper arms so arranged that there is a gripper arm for each feeding station.

You even have an alliteration 'long longitudinal'.
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Re: ERDNASE

Postby Bill Mullins » April 3rd, 2018, 12:47 pm

lybrary wrote: I think here in the US many engineers get their education from trade schools.


No.

You've criticized me more than once for talking about subjects that you think I don't know anything about. Don't get yourself caught in the same trap.

In America, an "engineer" means one of two things:
1. A Professional Engineer, who has taken (and passed) a PE exam in one of the engineering fields (Civil, Mechanical, Aerospace, Electrical, etc.). Requirements include:
- Earn a four-year degree in engineering from an accredited engineering program
- Pass the Fundamentals of Engineering (FE) exam
- Complete four years of progressive engineering experience under a PE
- Pass the Principles and Practice of Engineering (PE) exam

This is equivalent to an attorney having passed the Bar exam, and why engineering is considered to be a Profession (like law or medicine) rather than a trade. Once having done so, he is issued a PE license by the state, and can practice in that state. He is able to certify documents and plans as having been done properly, and is liable for faults in those documents and plans should they be wrong.

The PE who signed off on the plans for the bridge that recently collapsed in Florida is, no doubt, currently having many in depth conversations with his attorney and his malpractice insurer.

2. Generically, an "engineer" is someone who has earned a four-year degree from an accredited Engineering college or university. The ABET accredits schools, by inspecting and reviewing their curricula, faculty, facilities, etc., to insure that students received a proper education including not only engineering studies but other appropriate topics to make a well-rounded student who can integrate his engineering training into society at large. My own degree required that I take not only science, engineering and mathematical topics, but political science, history, literature, economics, and composition.

"Trade Schools" offer two year degrees. With respect to Engineering, the degree will typically be in "Engineering Technology", rather than Engineering. Other schools may offer programs of shorter duration, and yield a "certificate" rather than a degree. A person who gains employment based on such a degree is typically a technician, rather than an engineer. (I have, on rare occasions, seen senior technicians re-classified for purposes of higher pay as "engineers" rather than technicians. This is after they have demonstrated that their years of professional experience is a valid substitute for the engineering degree.)

Back then engineers typically learned via some kind of apprenticeship.


No. Again, you are saying things that are absolutely wrong.

Ever since the Morrill Act of 1862, when the federal government endowed state universities to promote the "mechanic arts" and engineering, engineering has been a degreed field.

When Gallaway compared Print Estimation to Engineering, he was full of it. It is a ludicrous statement. The Profession of Engineering is a far deeper and broader field than the trade of printing.

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Re: ERDNASE

Postby lybrary » April 3rd, 2018, 1:06 pm

Where is the proof that Erdnase was such a licensed engineer or graduated from a four year college? Gallaway considered himself an engineer. R.R. Donnelley, one of the largest printing companies in the US at that time, if not the largest, referred to students who went through their apprentice program as printing engineers. It is all over in their training material. There is as much engineering and science verbiage in Gallaway's writing as there is in Expert.
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Re: ERDNASE

Postby jkeyes1000 » April 3rd, 2018, 1:12 pm

Bill: I read the article about The Morrill Act. Where does it say that you can't call yourself an engineer unless you obtain a college degree?

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Re: ERDNASE

Postby Bill Mullins » April 3rd, 2018, 1:17 pm

Chris -- from where do the following quotes come? I don't find them in Estimating for Printers, How to Price Job Printing Properly, or Problems in Estimating.

The students of Printing Practice who intend to become estimators should realize that they are to be printing engineers and when once in possession of all the facts must form a mental picture of the job as it is to be completed.

The duties of an engineer in this department are not routine, in that he has no direct responsibility in getting the work through the plant nor does he assume any foremanship responsibilities for maintenance of discipline.

In a word, imposition is an engineering problem, and the estimator is a printing engineer.


Gallaway: A certain amount of paper is invariably wasted or spoiled during the process of manufacture.
Gallaway: Books over an inch in thickness cannot be stitched successfully, so thicker books are invariably patent bound.
Gallaway: Proper names should invariably be printed in handwritten copy and especial care taken not to confuse S and L or the small letters a and c, m and w, and n and u.

Gallaway: This press is equipped with a delivery which omits the longitudinal fold and thus delivers a double­size product with open head.
Gallaway: A long longi­tudinal shaft anchored above and behind the row of boxes carries a number of mechanical gripper arms so arranged that there is a gripper arm for each feeding station.


Also, I note that in the 3rd "invariably" quote above, Gallaway uses "especial" as a synonym for "special". Erdnase never does this - he always uses "special".

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Re: ERDNASE

Postby Bill Mullins » April 3rd, 2018, 1:20 pm

lybrary wrote: Gallaway considered himself an engineer. R.R. Donnelley, one of the largest printing companies in the US at that time, if not the largest, referred to students who went through their apprentice program as printing engineers.

jkeyes1000 wrote: Where does it say that you can't call yourself an engineer unless you obtain a college degree?


The guy who empties the trash in my building calls himself a sanitation engineer. You can call yourself whatever you want, that doesn't make it so.

(And, FWIW, I don't particularly think that Sanders was Erdnase, or that Erdnase was an engineer. I'm posting these things to show that so many of arguments offered for Gallaway apply equally well to Sanders, thus Sanders is as likely, or more so, to be Erdnase than Gallaway, and to show that in general, Chris often says things that he can't back up. Thus calling into question his thesis.)

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Re: ERDNASE

Postby jkeyes1000 » April 3rd, 2018, 2:04 pm

Bill: I respect the fact that you earned an engineering degree, but I think it is somewhat short-sighted to see well-trained problem solvers, in all sorts of diverse fields, as unworthy of the term, "engineer".

The fact that there were no schools offering degrees in print estimating should not prohibit a skilled individual from claiming the title.

This reminds me of a frequent argument I hear from sceptics and "critical thinkers" on Facebook. They authoritatively vaunt that a mere hypothesis cannot qualify as a theory--that a theory (Evolution, for instance) must have been tested and reviewed before it may be called such. I point out that what they really mean, is that it cannot be designated "an accepted theory'".

In this case, your distinction would the phrase, "accredited, or certified engineer".


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