ERDNASE

Discuss general aspects of Genii.
Roger M.
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Re: ERDNASE

Postby Roger M. » January 8th, 2016, 10:01 am

Ben James 1 wrote:It's pretty beaten up so should I have it repaired / restored or are these copies not worth it?


Prices can vary on the early paperbacks, but your Drake edition with yellow cover is likely worth somewhere between $100.00 and $250.00 depending on how long a potential buyer has been looking for one, and how long since the last one showed up for sale.
The yellow cover increases the value somewhat, so it's on the high side of the estimate above.
A typical white cover Drake in average condition usually goes for $75.00 to $150.00.

Folks don't generally restore these versions, as they maintain their value in original condition, and don't increase in value for a restoration that would probably cost more than the book is worth.
Amateur attempts at restoration should be avoided, as such tampering decreases the value of the book substantially.

Drake paperbacks can be hard to find at times, although it would be a mistake to call them "rare", note though that the yellow cover is seen far less often than the white cover.

Bill Mullins
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Re: ERDNASE

Postby Bill Mullins » January 8th, 2016, 10:43 am

Ben James 1 wrote:My copy of the book is very old and tattered. It is the copy where it has a king of hearts on the front cover and is all yellow in colour. It says "Chicago Frederick J Drake & Co" and 'copyright 1902' but doesn't have a date other than that. Would anyone know what I have please? Is it a first printing? What else should I look for?


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Ben James 1
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Re: ERDNASE

Postby Ben James 1 » January 8th, 2016, 4:47 pm

Thankyou for the advice Bill and Roger. The cover is literally loose from the book. I might just look into getting that re-attched professionally. I have a bit to spend on it and love projects like this. I'll speak to the book repairer, and inform him of what I now know about it.

edit - just looking at the detached front cover (which has a few layers to it) I can see that it says 'Published in Australia by MODELENE PTY LTD AUBURN VICTORIA' underneath a layer on the front cover page (??). The book was purchased originally at 'Will Andrades' a Magic dealer in Melbourne Australia. Comparing the cover to the Drake website examples is hard as the colour is much more faded than the website, so I'm now unsure if the yellowing is due to age or the yellow has faded DUE TO age. How confusing!

Bill Mullins
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Re: ERDNASE

Postby Bill Mullins » January 8th, 2016, 7:42 pm

Ordinarily I'd say that a paperbound copy with a detached cover isn't worth very much. But I'm not familiar with any variants labeled as published in Australia, so that gives it some value.

Roger M.
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Re: ERDNASE

Postby Roger M. » January 8th, 2016, 8:56 pm

Like Bill, I've never heard of an edition published in Australia.

Perhaps you've got something special on your hands?

Rick Ruhl
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Re: ERDNASE

Postby Rick Ruhl » January 8th, 2016, 10:35 pm

Bill Mullins wrote:I know everyone is excited about the Tenyo book, but I got another book in the mail yesterday -- Tom Sawyer's new book on Erdnase. It isn't as big as Tenyoism, but I can lay in bed reading it without being suffocated by it sitting on my chest, which is a plus.

Seriously, it is a good book and it is not sold out (yet). All of Sawyer's other Erdnase books are much more expensive now (and much harder to find) than when they were released.


I love this book, thanks Tom.

Ben James 1
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Re: ERDNASE

Postby Ben James 1 » January 9th, 2016, 6:46 am

I've spoken to my good friend who has been around Australian Magic for a lot longer than I have and he says that the book was public domain and that 'Andrades Magic Shop' in Melbourne may have just had a heap printed as it was cheaper than importing them (?????). Bear in mind that 'Printed in Australia' label was deliberately hidden between the MULTIPLE LAYERS OF PAPER THAT MAKE UP THE SINGLE FRONT COVER. I only stumbled across this today as I was trying to see underneath and around the cover to possibly get a true colour of it and it peeled back. It still says 'Frederick J Drake Chicago' at the bottom of the 'artifice ruse and subterfuge - treatise page.

Hmmmm. There are many more experts (pardon the pun) on this forum than me, so can anyone advise me who to contact regarding more possible info on this please?

performer
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Re: ERDNASE

Postby performer » January 9th, 2016, 6:51 am

This may be sacrilegious to say but I have always had a feeling that Erdnase whoever the hell he was never did any card cheating in his entire life. And I am dead serious.

No evidence. Just a strong gut feeling.

Tom Sawyer
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Re: ERDNASE

Postby Tom Sawyer » January 9th, 2016, 5:32 pm

Hi All,

To Rick Ruhl, thank you for the kind words about my new Erdnase book. Much apprciated!

To Mark Lewis, it appears that there are also others who share that view, or at least would agree that it is a distinct possibility. Most of the “authorship” arguments probably do not depend on whether or not Erdnase was a cheat.

--Tom Sawyer
At least for the time being, I have taken down my S.W. Erdnase blog.

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AJM
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Re: ERDNASE

Postby AJM » January 9th, 2016, 7:14 pm

I apply Occam's Razor to all this.

The book is authored by 'S W Erdnase' - which is E S Andrews backwards.

Erm...and that's it.

If the author truly wished to remain anonymous:

- why would he choose a pseudonym that is clearly just 'E S Andrews' in reverse?

- why would he choose a surname which, from investigations highlighted in this thread, is not a genuine or known one. (Indeed if E S Andrews was the author then he could have made a more convincing attempt at anonymity by making a more genuine sounding anagram out of the letters of his name (for example 'W E Sanders').

- why didn't he choose another (more realistic) pseudonym like 'John Smith' or 'James Jones'? That would have thrown everyone of the scent surely.

In addition, magic history is littered with supposed 'card cheats' who never made a move under fire - who's to say S W Erdnase wasn't just another.

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Leonard Hevia
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Re: ERDNASE

Postby Leonard Hevia » January 9th, 2016, 7:15 pm

Tom Sawyer wrote:Hi All,

To Rick Ruhl, thank you for the kind words about my new Erdnase book. Much apprciated!

To Mark Lewis, it appears that there are also others who share that view, or at least would agree that it is a distinct possibility. Most of the “authorship” arguments probably do not depend on whether or not Erdnase was a cheat.

--Tom Sawyer


The late Tony Giorgio suspected that Erdnase was a magician posing as a card cheat. In his Giorgio Letters column, he analyzed a number of the moves taught in the Card Table Artifice section and would preface his discussions with "Another useless maneuver...."

I'm a third of the way through Tom's book and it's fascinating reading!

Roger M.
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Re: ERDNASE

Postby Roger M. » January 9th, 2016, 7:52 pm

I have always believed that Erdnase was a cheat, based less on his sleight of hand "Part #2" of the book, and more on "Part #1", wherein he discusses his original theories on cheating at cards.

I will simply put out there that, when you combine the unequalled even today theories (many of them having never seen print before Erdnase put them to paper), and the section on sleights you get a whole - simply because even if Erdnase wasn't a guy who actually "moved" at the table, the sheer number of sleights that he understood as effective at table-play clearly indicates somebody with a deep and somewhat profound understanding of cheating at playing cards (almost making whether he actually moved or not somewhat irrelevant).

I am a huge fan of Tony Giorgio, but I have long believed TG was substantially off-base with his analysis of Erdnase and EATCT.

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Re: ERDNASE

Postby Leonard Hevia » January 9th, 2016, 8:14 pm

Roger M. wrote:I will simply put out there that, when you combine the unequalled even today theories (many of them having never seen print before Erdnase put them to paper), and the section on sleights you get a whole - simply because even if Erdnase wasn't a guy who actually "moved" at the table, the sheer number of sleights that he understood as effective at table-play clearly indicates somebody with a deep and somewhat profound understanding of cheating at playing cards (almost making whether he actually moved or not somewhat irrelevant).


Giorgio was an adherent to the spot where the rubber meets the road. In his mind, the moves that Erdnase described were "unmovable" under fire at a real card table game. To Giorgio, if the move couldn't cut it on the card table to get the money, throw it out the window.

If Erdnase never really moved at the card table to put his moves to the test, how was it possible for him to have a deep and profound understanding of cheating at playing cards? Is the Card Table Artifice section really just more theoretical for card cheating than practical?

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Re: ERDNASE

Postby performer » January 9th, 2016, 8:45 pm

I didn't realise that anyone else had a suspicion that Erdnase was not really a card cheat and I am gratified to hear it. I just knew instinctively after reading it that something was not quite right. I believe Tony Giorgio was quite right.

I have met some card sharking types in my travels among wicked people. They are not that bright. Some of them are quite crude people. That book is too well written for a start. Secondly there is just too much detail and far too many sleights described. Card Sharks don't use a fraction of that stuff. They might have one or two moves and that is all they need. They are not going to learn or know about all the moves in that book. There are just too many of them described to be credible.

And of course the very fact there is a substantial legerdemain section gives the game away.

A magician wrote that book. I guarantee it. I am psychic and know these things.
Last edited by performer on January 9th, 2016, 8:52 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: ERDNASE

Postby performer » January 9th, 2016, 8:49 pm

Oh, and just one more point. Since it was a magician that would explain why it was written anonymously. If he had put his real name everyone would have said "That guy has never cheated at cards in his life! We saw him do some stuff at the magic club!"

Oh, and I've got more news for you. That Erdnase backwards business and all the various anagrams are a red herring. If you want to make yourself anonymous you don't give daft clues along those lines. You make your name completely different. Study me on the Magic Cafe if you want proof of it.

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Re: ERDNASE

Postby Leonard Hevia » January 9th, 2016, 9:11 pm

performer wrote:I have met some card sharking types in my travels among wicked people. They are not that bright. Some of them are quite crude people. That book is too well written for a start. Secondly there is just too much detail and far too many sleights described. Card Sharks don't use a fraction of that stuff. They might have one or two moves and that is all they need. They are not going to learn or know about all the moves in that book. There are just too many of them described to be credible.


An interesting point you bring up. I also noticed in my study of the Giorgio Letters that in his many travels and friendships with real card sharks, Giorgio would mention the one or two moves used by them at the table to get the money.

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Re: ERDNASE

Postby performer » January 9th, 2016, 9:57 pm

Indeed. I met a card sharp once and told him about Erdnase. He had never heard of any of those moves in the book. He only had a couple of moves or so. I do remember he palmed a card quite well, in fact several at one time.

Card sharps don't know that stuff. Magicians do. A magician wrote it. I also get a vibe that it was a well known magician too. Who I don't know. Again no evidence whatsover. Just a vibe. Gut instinct.

Roger M.
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Re: ERDNASE

Postby Roger M. » January 10th, 2016, 12:09 am

I'm deeply aware of Giorgio's credentials, but, like the rest of us, all he can do is offer up a personal opinion.

He was guessing, as are we all.

Marty Demarest
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Re: ERDNASE

Postby Marty Demarest » January 10th, 2016, 12:22 pm

AJM wrote:I apply Occam's Razor to all this.


I believe that same "logic" was recently used to assert that the author filled out the copyright application.

The author didn't fill out the copyright application.

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Re: ERDNASE

Postby Jonathan Townsend » January 11th, 2016, 10:44 am

AJM wrote:I apply Occam's Razor to all this...


Occam's Razor applies to working useful theories - and making a selection from among such.
Mundus vult decipi -per Caleb Carr's story Killing Time

Roger M.
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Re: ERDNASE

Postby Roger M. » January 11th, 2016, 10:30 pm

Arrived home from work today to find Thomas Sawyers "Rethinking S.W. Erdnase" in my mailbox

I'm about one third of the way through it, and am quite taken by the fresh thinking contained within.

Tom is one of the most balanced and fair-minded participants in the search for Erdnase, and along with his insight into the same, the book is simply a joy.

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Re: ERDNASE

Postby performer » January 11th, 2016, 10:39 pm

Roger M. wrote:I'm deeply aware of Giorgio's credentials, but, like the rest of us, all he can do is offer up a personal opinion.

He was guessing, as are we all.


Yes. But an expert's personal opinion.

Tom Sawyer
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Re: ERDNASE

Postby Tom Sawyer » January 11th, 2016, 11:39 pm

To Leo Hevia, several posts above: I saw what you said about my book. Thank you, I appreciate it.

To Roger M., a couple of posts above: Likewise, thank you. Very kind of you.

--Tom Sawyer
At least for the time being, I have taken down my S.W. Erdnase blog.

Leonard Hevia
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Re: ERDNASE

Postby Leonard Hevia » January 12th, 2016, 12:06 am

You're welcome Tom! I'm currently halfway through it and found your book to have been useful in clarifying a few things that slipped by my radar. For example, Edwin Sumner Andrews' proximity to the Atlas Company had changed from just a few blocks to a few miles. The book's subtext appears to be a caution on our assumptions.

mam
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Re: ERDNASE

Postby mam » January 14th, 2016, 6:15 am

Tom, I received my copy yesterday and it's a wonderful read so far, and also a very nice book in terms of binding etc. I completely agree with the "beyond reasonable doubt" point of view, which is why I myself is looking for new evidence rather than decrypting names over and over. Anyway, it's a great pleasure to read such a coherent and clear account of the Erdnase matter and I'm glad I ordered a copy of what I think will be another sought after rarity in the future.

In other news, I finally got word from the JPMorgan Chase bank the other day. As you know, M. D. Smith thought his check was issued by the First National Bank, which through a series of mergers is owned today by Chase. Their archivists let me know that there are no records from that time, meaning that if the check was indeed issued by First National, Darwin Ortiz's source was untruthful in claiming that they had tracked down records.

Or, as I hope is the case, the check was issued by another bank, and records may still be around. Smith had also mentioned he knew someone at the Harris Bank he could ask, but it's unclear if that meant he also thought the check could have been issued by Harris, or if it was just a relevant bank knowledgable person. In any case, BMO Harris Bank today only keep records for the required seven years. I'm still waiting for replies from rest of the banks on this list.

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AJM
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Re: ERDNASE

Postby AJM » January 14th, 2016, 8:46 am

I feel looking for a cheque (or check if you will) or a written record of it in a ledger from 100+ years ago is nothing more than a waste of time.

Bank archivists are only interested in storing artefacts which relate to notable events in the history of the organisation. The idea that each bank stores all documents relating to day to day transactions for decades is pie in the sky.

Good luck with your search.
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mam
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Re: ERDNASE

Postby mam » January 14th, 2016, 8:51 am

AJM wrote:I feel looking for a cheque (or check if you will) or a written record of it in a ledger from 100+ years ago is nothing more than a waste of time.

Bank archivists are only interested in storing artefacts which relate to notable events in the history of the organisation. The idea that each bank has a big cave where it stores all documents relating to daily transactions
Good luck with your search.

It is entirely informed by the lead Darwin Ortiz had, with a source saying the records exist. This may or may not be true, but it is a lead nonetheless.

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Re: ERDNASE

Postby Tom Sawyer » January 16th, 2016, 8:02 pm

Hi All,

Although I don't know anything about the existence, or non-existence, of relevant checks, I'm not that sure that one can say that relevant bank records do not exist.

From the very little looking I have done on the subject, it does appear that SOME very early banking records do exist (not necessarily from Chicago), and that they are viewed as a useful tool for those doing genealogical research. Whether such records ever include records of checks, I do not know.

However, unless someone has already checked with the many banks that mam mentions, I don't know how one could be certain that nothing of interest exists.

To my primitive way of thinking, one could not really say that a complete investigation has been done on these issues, if that investigation did not include (among certain other things) inquiries to each bank.

--Tom Sawyer
At least for the time being, I have taken down my S.W. Erdnase blog.

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Re: ERDNASE

Postby mam » January 16th, 2016, 8:08 pm

Tom Sawyer wrote:To my primitive way of thinking, one could not really say that a complete investigation has been done on these issues, if that investigation did not include (among certain other things) checking with each bank.

With this I agree completely.

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Re: ERDNASE

Postby lybrary » January 16th, 2016, 10:42 pm

+1

Totally agree that it is worth looking for bank records and checks. I actually inquired with an American check collector association and even had a call in their magazine for checks from Chicago around that time. Nothing came from it, but one never knows until one looks.

That there were possibly bankruptcy records for the James McKinney bankruptcy was known for 100+ years. Several people looked for them over the decades but nobody found anything. Before I looked one could have said the same thing. Why look? The chances for them existing are minute. Yes, they were minute, but as we now know they existed and I found them.

Markus has the right approach by systematically checking and not letting it go until he has an answer one way or another. The problem with many posts here is there is a lot of talk and little doing. The doing is what actually moves things ahead.
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Leonard Hevia
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Re: ERDNASE

Postby Leonard Hevia » January 17th, 2016, 1:11 am

Is the search for bank records and checks in reference to that account that Erdnase opened for the check he wrote to M.D. Smith? Does it also encompass the checks he must have received in payment for TEATCT? Who would have had to pay Erdnase from the sales of his book? McKinney & Co.?

While I applaud Chris's efforts to locate the McKinney bankruptcy papers, I am also aware that he digitized the information and is selling it on his website. He is therefore receiving a monetary return on the time he took to track down those records. For those who don't have a website or other avenue to reap monetary rewards in the hunt for Erdnase's identity, there is a limitation to what can be accomplished. If you can't turn your personal hunt for Erdnase into a business, then it all becomes an out of pocket expense with no reimbursement. Get it Chris? Got it? Good.

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Re: ERDNASE

Postby lybrary » January 17th, 2016, 8:33 am

Leonard Hevia wrote:While I applaud Chris's efforts to locate the McKinney bankruptcy papers, I am also aware that he digitized the information and is selling it on his website. He is therefore receiving a monetary return on the time he took to track down those records. For those who don't have a website or other avenue to reap monetary rewards in the hunt for Erdnase's identity, there is a limitation to what can be accomplished. If you can't turn your personal hunt for Erdnase into a business, then it all becomes an out of pocket expense with no reimbursement. Get it Chris? Got it? Good.


Leonard, clearly you have no idea about the Erdnase 'market'. The handful of people who purchased the James McKinney files from me is merely a drop on the hot stone. I paid more than 10x, what I received from customers, to the national archives for scanning the files in the first place. Add to this several thousand dollars for various work of genealogists, linguists, handwriting analysts and other experts. And that does not include any of my time and work. It is not a business. If you want to look at it as a business then it is one of the worst businesses you can be in.
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Re: ERDNASE

Postby Leo Garet » January 17th, 2016, 11:56 am

lybrary wrote:
Leonard Hevia wrote: If you can't turn your personal hunt for Erdnase into a business, then it all becomes an out of pocket expense with no reimbursement. Get it Chris? Got it? Good.


Leonard, If you want to look at it as a business then it is one of the worst businesses you can be in.

I have no idea of Chris's personal business or finances (why would I?) but Chris is right, surely.

And doesn't this apply to everything? The number of books I've bought, lectures and conventions I've attended in search of a particular Holy Grail has all come out of my own pocket, with my wife's approval now and my parent's back then. Of course. ;)

If I could turn that into a business, or better yet, find a patron/sponsor, I'd be more than a little pleased. As it is...back to the pocket

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Re: ERDNASE

Postby lybrary » January 17th, 2016, 2:56 pm

The fact that I have decided to bring in experts and pay them was my personal decision. The entire Erdnase research community has benefited from it, just as I have benefited from the doers before me. But there is a lot of things one can do which do not cost any money. But they require thought, determination and work. It is very convenient and easy for you to say: "Oh I can't do this or I can't do that, because I don't have such and such!" Please give me a break. Rather than pooh-pooh other people's work offer something of your own that is new.
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Re: ERDNASE

Postby Bill Mullins » January 17th, 2016, 3:16 pm

While I don't agree with the conclusions that Chris drew from his research, I commend him for digging the records out. New source material is valuable.

Leonard, Gaithersburg isn't that far from the Library of Congress in DC, or the National Archives in College Park or DC. Researching at them costs only time. You don't have to spend money to make a contribution.

While some of what I've found out came from subscription databases, there are a number of free online databases of newspapers. And useful stuff comes from them as well.

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Re: ERDNASE

Postby Richard Kaufman » January 25th, 2016, 2:48 pm

New books on Erdnase coming out this year?
Subscribe today to Genii Magazine

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Re: ERDNASE

Postby mam » February 25th, 2016, 6:11 am

One full month today without posts here, wow! ;)

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Re: ERDNASE

Postby mam » February 27th, 2016, 6:45 am

Hey, what edition is this?

http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/Artifice-Ruse ... 1857959652

I've never seen it, and it's not on the Everything Erdnase site either.

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Re: ERDNASE

Postby Tom Gilbert » February 27th, 2016, 7:25 am

It says in the description Drake and Co. 1934.

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Re: ERDNASE

Postby mam » February 27th, 2016, 7:28 am

Tom Gilbert wrote:It says in the description Drake and Co. 1934.

Yes, so much I gather, I was wondering if anyone had seen this specific Drake edition. (It's not among the Drake editions at Everything Erdnase.)


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