ERDNASE

Discuss general aspects of Genii.
Roger M.
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Re: ERDNASE

Postby Roger M. » September 4th, 2015, 10:20 am

In a continuation of discussion as to whether Erdnase could have become what he became, and wrote the book he wrote, all the while working full time as a printer ... I've noted before that he didn't just become proficient with a deck of cards, he single handedly invented an entirely new form of advantage card play and cheating, and advanced the craft in one fell swoop perhaps more substantially than anybody has since.

The concept that he could have developed this advanced work in what would essentially be his spare time outside of a full time job seems to betray a lack of understanding related to the actual contents of the book.

Although perhaps convenient, it's best not to separate the man (Erdnase) from his work (EATCT) in the course of discussions related to the search for the authors actual identity.

In Chris's note above, the 10,000 hour nugget is likely what it would take a reader to master the skills in the book today ... but it would have taken three or four times that for our Mr. Erdnase to conceive, practice, perfect, and eventually commit to paper what are wholly original works.

The 10,000 hour comment Chris made conveniently forgets that EATCT is a work of original creations ... not a re-hash of previous sleights and thinking.
In the case of authorship of EATCT, the 10,000 hour "rule", and similar thinking simply does not apply.

I'd not say that having a deep understanding of the actual contents of the book is essential to searching for Erdnase, but certainly a lack of understanding of the actual material contained within the book can (and obviously in some cases already has) lead searchers quite clearly down an entirely wrong path.

Considering Erdnase's age (via Smith) and the contents, EATCT is clearly the result of a mans life work to date, working and practicing as near to full time as possible as a card cheat and hustler.
Despite opinions rendered over the years that EATCT and Mr. Erdnase are some sort of magicians efforts to write about cheating at cards, actually understanding the contents of the book causes one to realize just how silly this line of thinking really is.
The same "silliness" applies to the concept that Erdnase could have conceived of the contents of the book on his lunch hours and evenings before bed.

It's simply not possible, as the actual contents of the book clearly demonstrate.

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Re: ERDNASE

Postby observer » September 4th, 2015, 10:45 am

Roger M. wrote:he single handedly invented an entirely new form of advantage card play and cheating,



? Sharps and Flats was published in 1894.

Roger M.
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Re: ERDNASE

Postby Roger M. » September 4th, 2015, 10:57 am

There were other (even more important) books on advantage play and cheating that were also published prior to EATCT.

Erdnase penned original material, which doesn't in any way conflict with books being written before EATCT on advantage play and cheating at cards.

I have a first edition of Sharps and Flats, and I enjoy reading it still ... but it's pedantic when compared to EATCT.
Sharps and Flats certainly shares abundent knowledge from within a single book, but much of that knowledge was already out there, with some of it being quite dated upon publication in S&F.

S&F is a compendium of existing knowledge at the time, EATCT is a wholly original piece of work.

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lybrary
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Re: ERDNASE

Postby lybrary » September 4th, 2015, 12:41 pm

Roger M. wrote:In Chris's note above, the 10,000 hour nugget is likely what it would take a reader to master the skills in the book today ... but it would have taken three or four times that for our Mr. Erdnase to conceive, practice, perfect, and eventually commit to paper what are wholly original works.

I am not saying that the 10,000 hour rule strictly applies here or that it even has to apply at all. The 10,000 hour rule is just as controversial in the nature vs nurture debate, as the Erdnase candidate controversies here. But it still does provide a good measure to start to gauge if it is plausible or not. Also, the 10,000 hour rule is generally not used to explain simply becoming skilled, it is used in connection with superstars like Mozart, or superstar athletes in various fields, or people creative in business like Steven Jobs and Bill Gates. All of these did create entirely new concepts and had novel thoughts and ideas just like Erdnase.

For many years I have had an interest in the talent versus training debate (my articles in my newsletters prove that). I have extensively read the literature in this area. What I have learned and seen does not exclude Erdnase to be working in the printing trade. Not at all. It is a misunderstanding of human nature. You also have to factor in a certain amount of talent. Some are just more talented from the get go. Take for example the young German Moritz Mueller (14 years of age) who does incredibly beautiful and skillful coin magic https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCCVSI6 ... x5bje9c4mw Some need to practice many many years to achieve such mastery. This kid has acquired it with 14 years of age. Per his own account in a few years of practice. Imagine Erdnase to be somebody like that but only with cards. He could easily go into a print apprenticeship with 14 and become the Erdnase we know from his book. This is a very arrogant position you have about humans in general. The ability to achieve, to create is enormous. Even a steady job would not hold back a determined and talented person.
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Roger M.
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Re: ERDNASE

Postby Roger M. » September 4th, 2015, 1:41 pm

lybrary wrote:
Roger M. wrote:In Chris's note above, the 10,000 hour nugget is likely what it would take a reader to master the skills in the book today ... but it would have taken three or four times that for our Mr. Erdnase to conceive, practice, perfect, and eventually commit to paper what are wholly original works.
This is a very arrogant position you have about humans in general.


No Chris, it's not at all arrogant. It's simply an honest assessment of Mr. Erdnase's ability to work full time and also develop the material he presents in his book, and to do so at the relatively young age at which he authored the book.

I suspect your lack of understanding of the actual contents of the book is responsible for informing your inaccurate assessment of how long Erdnase would have had to put in to develop his original material.

I have studied the actual contents of EATCT for well over 30 years, and my assessment is based on the practical experience gained by working through (page by laborious page) the fruits of Mr. Erdnase's labor.

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Re: ERDNASE

Postby lybrary » September 4th, 2015, 2:21 pm

Roger M. wrote:
lybrary wrote:
Roger M. wrote:In Chris's note above, the 10,000 hour nugget is likely what it would take a reader to master the skills in the book today ... but it would have taken three or four times that for our Mr. Erdnase to conceive, practice, perfect, and eventually commit to paper what are wholly original works.
This is a very arrogant position you have about humans in general.


No Chris, it's not at all arrogant. It's simply an honest assessment of Mr. Erdnase's ability to work full time and also develop the material he presents in his book, and to do so at the relatively young age at which he authored the book.

I suspect your lack of understanding of the actual contents of the book is responsible for informing your inaccurate assessment of how long Erdnase would have had to put in to develop his original material.

I have studied the actual contents of EATCT for well over 30 years, and my assessment is based on the practical experience gained by working through (page by laborious page) the fruits of Mr. Erdnase's labor.

Your position is not only wrong and misinformed I utterly resent it. I hope you don't have any kids or advise young folks, because you would tell them they can't do ABC if they don't conform to XYZ. You are the person who would tell Spud Webb that he could never dunk let alone win the NBA dunking contest. You would be the person to tell Rene Lavand to drop sleight-of-hand magic because he has only one hand and how could he ever be good at it. If people like you would be in charge we would have never flown to the moon or built airplanes. You are a sad mediocre man who can't see beyond hurdles and difficulties and you have no appreciation of the human spirit to do something nobody has done before. Unless somebody conforms to your romantic stereotype of a gambler he can't be a gambler. Perhaps because you had to study so hard and long to understand Erdnase - and who says you actually do - you can't believe that others could do it faster or better, or that Erdnase himself could come up with this in less time it took you to master it. By all accounts Erdnase was special. The fact that we still consider his book in such high regard more than 100 years after he wrote it is testament enough. You want to make him an average guy. He is not. He could easily be a printer or whatever else he wants to be, because he is special, regardless of how many hours or leisure time you think it requires.
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Re: ERDNASE

Postby Roger M. » September 4th, 2015, 3:56 pm

Your position is not only wrong and misinformed I utterly resent it.


All to personal Chris.

I don't give a sh_it what you do, or don't resent.

Try sticking with the topic at hand (Erdnase) rather than blowing a vein when somebody dares disagree with your erroneous conclusions regarding Erdnase.

You're just plain wrong in your ridiculous Gallaway argument, and I do understand that you're having a very difficult time hearing anybody tell you you're wrong.

I don't resent you or your argument, but I certainly won't hesitate making a point of telling you when I think your conclusions are utterly ridiculous.

That you don't understand the contents of the book is painfully obvious.

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Re: ERDNASE

Postby Bill Mullins » September 4th, 2015, 4:00 pm

lybrary wrote: You are a sad mediocre man


Earlier, when people said you were being rude, I defended what you were doing as passionate debate and not a personal attack.

I can no longer do that.

You probably ought to take a breather from this thread for a few days.

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Re: ERDNASE

Postby Jonathan Townsend » September 4th, 2015, 4:11 pm

I think folks will have a better time considering candidates when the rhetoric avoids disparaging the champion and stays on the matter.
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Re: ERDNASE

Postby Dustin Stinett » September 4th, 2015, 5:02 pm

Bill Mullins wrote:
lybrary wrote: You are a sad mediocre man


Earlier, when people said you were being rude, I defended what you were doing as passionate debate and not a personal attack.

I can no longer do that.

You probably ought to take a breather from this thread for a few days.

I agree. Chris, please take a voluntary break from the Forum or I will make it involuntary for several days. I'm certain that you have other things you can do over the weekend.

And I suggest that everyone involved here rein it in and stick to the topic. In the meantime, I am going to sort all this out and delete the nonsense. This is too important a thread to be hijacked by this kind of stuff.

Dustin

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Re: ERDNASE

Postby Carlo Morpurgo » September 4th, 2015, 5:20 pm

Roger M. wrote:There were other (even more important) books on advantage play and cheating that were also published prior to EATCT.

Erdnase penned original material, which doesn't in any way conflict with books being written before EATCT on advantage play and cheating at cards.

I have a first edition of Sharps and Flats, and I enjoy reading it still ... but it's pedantic when compared to EATCT.
Sharps and Flats certainly shares abundent knowledge from within a single book, but much of that knowledge was already out there, with some of it being quite dated upon publication in S&F.

S&F is a compendium of existing knowledge at the time, EATCT is a wholly original piece of work.


It would be nice to have a small list of basic slights in EATCT that can be reasonably considered totally original (i.e. unpublished before EATCT). If this list has been written before maybe someone can point out where to find it.
Last edited by Carlo Morpurgo on September 4th, 2015, 8:32 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: ERDNASE

Postby performer » September 4th, 2015, 6:38 pm

I see that my post stating that the book was not written when you all think it was written was deleted. OK. Don't take me seriously. However, one day in the future you will find that I will turn out to be right. I always am.

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Re: ERDNASE

Postby Jack Shalom » September 4th, 2015, 6:44 pm

The 10,000 hour comment Chris made conveniently forgets that EATCT is a work of original creations ... not a re-hash of previous sleights and thinking.


Not rhetorical: How can we know that?

How do we know that Erdnase is not just reporting stuff he picked up along the way, things that were "underground" but not in print?

How do we know that they are not "some useful improvements" of unpublished work, and not "original creations"?

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Re: ERDNASE

Postby Roger M. » September 4th, 2015, 7:35 pm

Jack, we know that because the book is a unified work, one which maintains a solid consistency related to thinking and execution throughout.

EATCT represents a comprehensive system from cover to cover, as opposed to a loose collection of unrelated ideas assembled into one volume.

The only way to effectively understand and see this - is to pick up a deck of cards and begin working your way though the book.
Once you've done that, the mastery of the author over the material becomes crystal clear to the reader.

Having said that, your comment about unpublished "real work", that would have presumably been seen by Erdnase during his time at the card table, and possibly through socializing with other hustlers, would absolutely have influenced his own thinking as he developed his original system.

I'm not stating that Erdnase was the creator of the second deal, or the bottom deal, etc, etc.....I'm saying that the way he presents his book in its complete form represents an original system of advantage play and cheating at cards, and does so in a way previously unseen in book form.

Taken as a whole, the book was absolutely original when it came out, such that it still remains a singular and comprehensive method of thinking about cheating at cards, even today.

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Re: ERDNASE

Postby Tom Sawyer » September 5th, 2015, 2:03 am

I wonder whether this Labor Day weekend will be quiet on this thread. I suspect so.

Personally, tomorrow I hope to watch as much as I can of UCLA playing Virginia, and also Berkeley playing Grambling, even though I think the two games will overlap.

Anyway, I bethought myself that I would check and see how many posts there were made on this thread during the Labor Day weekend last year (which I believe was August 30, August 31, and September 1).

There were two posts, one by me and one by Bill Mullins.

That's not necessarily all that relevant, because the thread as been extremely busy in recent months.

But okay, that isn't really what I want to say at the moment.

This might be a good time to wonder who the main S.W. Erdnase candidates are at present.

I don’t really know how many “major cases” there are. It seems as though the most frequently discussed cases are those of Edwin Sumner Andrews, Milton Franklin Andrews, and Wilbur Edgerton Sanders.

Hurt McDermott (in Artifice, Ruse & Erdnase) liked Milton Franklin Andrews, then Edwin Sumner Andrews, then . . .

R.F. Foster!

Huh?

He dismissed Wilbur Edgerton Sanders rather summarily.

Actually, Hurt’s discussion of why he liked certain candidates and didn’t like others may be a weak area of his book.

Overall, I like Hurt’s book quite a bit. I think it is probably the best book overall on the subject, certainly better than The Man Who Was Erdnase as to authorship issues. But it is not without weaknesses.

Actually, my own main argument against Foster is that it seems as though it would have been constitutionally impossible for a man like Foster to write a book like The Expert at the Card Table, since Foster bent over backwards trying to protect people from being cheated.

On the other hand, that is more of a philosophical argument -- hard to convince anyone of anything based on that.

But obviously few care much at all about Foster as a candidate, though Hurt developed some very interesting information about Foster in his Erdnase book.

--Tom Sawyer
At least for the time being, I have taken down my S.W. Erdnase blog.

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Re: ERDNASE

Postby mam » September 6th, 2015, 12:46 pm

Did anyone read Jack Pots by Eugene Edwards?

It's been mentioned by title here in the thread, but no references to its content. The book was published in 1900 by Jamieson-Higgins, and we know now that they and James McKinney & Co. were tightly intertwined. Chapter 12 ("Crooked Gambling") might be of interest, where:

(page 310)
A retired gambler, who, in his day was the most skilled "second dealer" in the country, explains these methods very entertainingly.

The chapter then goes on to describe or at lest reference second deals, peeks, accomplices, false shuffles, shifts, marked cards, palming, etc. There is a detailed description of how to bring cards from the center to the top of the deck, which is something the "gambler then showed":

(page 312)
Holding the pack in his left hand as if about to deal, he would shove his forefinger between the deck and right above the card he was to bring on top. He would then raise his forefinger, thereby lifting the cards above it, and then with the middle finger he would slide the wanted card out about half an inch towards his fingers. Then he would press down on the card and in this manner raise it outside the pack. He would then remove his forefinger, thereby allowing the cards to fall back again. The needed card would be standing on its side outside the pack, and it would then be an easy matter to shift it on top of the pack. In fact, the whole operation looked easy enough until tried, and then it became very difficult.

It does not sound to me like Edwards had a grip on sleight of hand himself, but rather like he is an outsider trying to describe a complex move being shown to him. That the methods are explained "very entertainingly" to Edwards could also hint at the gambler in question having a way with words.

Could the publishing of this book have sparked the idea to publish EATCT? And could the retired gambler that Edwards obviously had rapport with, have been talked into writing it?

A former gambler needing money, a publishing company on the verge of bankruptcy, and an already established contact through Edwards. Sounds like a good recipe for a book like EATCT to happen.

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Re: ERDNASE

Postby mam » September 6th, 2015, 1:12 pm

Which brings to mind something I'm sure there are a couple of easy answers to:

How do we know that McKinney/Jamieson-Higgins did not pay Erdnase for writing the book? Other than it saying self-published on the title page? That is one way to cover any connection between your respectable publishing/printing company (specializing in children's books) and name, and something controversial like a book on card cheating.

Disregarding the self-published statement, they might as well have asked Erdnase to write the text, suggest M.D. Smith for the illustrations and set them up in a hotel room, pay Erdnase an upfront sum in cash, then never see him again. Which would also explain why copies were being sold by McKinney, why it was copyrighted in Jamieson's handwriting, etc. etc. Because, simply, it was a McKinney/Jamieson-Higgins product, just with an added layer of obfuscation.

But I'm probably missing something obvious here.

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Re: ERDNASE

Postby Jonathan Townsend » September 6th, 2015, 1:35 pm

mam wrote:... But I'm probably missing something obvious here.


The essential need of others to find an author, one author, of the kind they wish to imagine perhaps? ;) Were the cards red backed, blue backed or perhaps black backed?

Try Borges' Quixote story with a twist that the reviewer does not know of Cervantes and works only from the text proffered as recent publication. From there rather than compare the two texts he goes on to imagine and comment upon the author.
Mundus vult decipi -per Caleb Carr's story Killing Time

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Re: ERDNASE

Postby Tom Sawyer » September 6th, 2015, 3:45 pm

Hi Jon,

I have not read that Borges story ("Pierre Menard, Author of the Quixote"), but I have read a little bit about it.

I suppose at the very least your comment may raise questions such as the following:

1. Is there any utility to the inquiry into the S.W. Erdnase identity question?

2. Assume for the moment that we find the answer to the question “Who was Erdnase?” Will we recognize that we have found the answer?

3. Do we have some kind of a need to keep looking, even when we already have the answer?

4. Are we asking the wrong questions -- the answers to which seem to lead us to S.W. Erdnase, but do not?

A little bit of examining those questions is hard to dodge.

But an in-depth examination?

That takes a lot of mental energy, and most people probably prefer to avoid that, and would rather try to determine what color the backs of Erdnase's cards were (though I may have missed your meaning in your mention of the card backs).

Thanks for the post.

--Tom
At least for the time being, I have taken down my S.W. Erdnase blog.

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Re: ERDNASE

Postby Leonard Hevia » September 6th, 2015, 8:05 pm

Tom Sawyer wrote:
1. Is there any utility to the inquiry into the S.W. Erdnase identity question?

2. Assume for the moment that we find the answer to the question “Who was Erdnase?” Will we recognize that we have found the answer?

3. Do we have some kind of a need to keep looking, even when we already have the answer?

4. Are we asking the wrong questions -- the answers to which seem to lead us to S.W. Erdnase, but do not?

--Tom


1. David Alexander answered the first question in his Erdnase article:

The question naturally arises, "Why should we care who Erdnase was?" This was answered by Ross MacDonald's hard-boiled but occasionally sentimental detective Lew Archer. When he was asked why anyone should care about history MacDonald has Archer respond that someone ought to be interested in finding out the truth about things, for the truth ought to matter.

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Re: ERDNASE

Postby Carlo Morpurgo » September 7th, 2015, 8:16 am

Leonard Hevia wrote:
Tom Sawyer wrote:
1. Is there any utility to the inquiry into the S.W. Erdnase identity question?



1. David Alexander answered the first question in his Erdnase article:

The question naturally arises, "Why should we care who Erdnase was?" This was answered by Ross MacDonald's hard-boiled but occasionally sentimental detective Lew Archer. When he was asked why anyone should care about history MacDonald has Archer respond that someone ought to be interested in finding out the truth about things, for the truth ought to matter.


The desire to find the truth is almost genetic, an axiom. However, I find that what matters the most, in the end, is not so much the truth itself, but the process that lead to it. The efforts involved in finding the solution to a challenging problem - whatever it is - almost inevitably produce new ideas, new techniques, new knowledge, and more problems to solve. And that is regardless of whether the initial problem is solved or not...

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Re: ERDNASE

Postby mam » September 7th, 2015, 11:12 am

Richard Hatch wrote:[…] I strongly believe that S. W. Jamieson filled out the copyright application for Erdnase. He was a co-founder and treasurer of Jamieson-Higgins, not an employee of McKinney, and probably too young himself to have been the author.

I have August 1881 as his birth, is that what you have found as well?

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Re: ERDNASE

Postby Scott Lane » September 7th, 2015, 5:07 pm

I would like to present a possible candidate (and associates) for being responsible for the authorship of the book EATCT. This is the first time I am going public with this information.

Please try and refrain from attacking the messenger. I would like to kindly ask that we look at the facts of the case and clearly identify any comments/posts that are supposition or speculation. I don’t think we should rule out speculation because many times those are clues that turn out to be hard facts.

I have been involved in researching Erdnase for about five decades and have some very strong family ties to many of the families in the research that I am going to put forth. I realize that this will take many posts and I hope that it will not be too much of a bumpy ride.

Several years ago I published some of my research on a website called swerdnase.net. It is a website that I have not changed in several years. The information I presented in the website is just that – a bunch of my research. Posted there are true leads, dead ends and unfinished research. I did not organize it - I just posted it. The website contains a fraction of my research.

I am hoping other researchers can help with the things that I will post in this thread.
I realize I am going to get pushback because I have taken a different path to the research that has already been completed. Although I think many of you will be surprised how much of the current research ties to my findings.

The story starts when William A. Bowles, a physician, who started a hotel and health resort in French Lick Indiana in about the year 1840. The hotel was leased to a Dr. John A. Lane in about 1848. This location was an internationally recognized spot and became a meca for illegal gambling casinos. John A. Lane held the hotel and casino for many years but Bowles refused to renew the lease. There are many, many stories that I am skipping over but this is just a thread. One funny note, John Lane was so mad about not getting the lease renewed that he held onto the hotel until the last day of his lease and paid the last lease payment in silver dimes out of spite! That is when John A. Lane started a second hotel in the area. This hotel is now known as the West Baden Springs Hotel.

I am now skipping many, many stories concerning this time period but suffice to say in 1880 the French Lick hotel property was sold to satisfy a court judgment and was bought at a sheriff's sale by Hiram E. Wells and James M. Andrews of Paoli, Indiana. In 1897 the Monon railroad was built. It was known as the Chicago, Indianapolis, French Lick and Louisville railroad. About 50 percent of the people that visited the French Lick area were from Chicago.

According to family tradition, James M Andrews was an expert card dealer.

Scott Edward Lane

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Re: ERDNASE

Postby Scott Lane » September 7th, 2015, 5:47 pm

This is a correction to my last post. The Monon railroad started in 1887 not 1897.

Scott Edward Lane

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Re: ERDNASE

Postby mam » September 7th, 2015, 6:10 pm

Scott,

I'm having a very hard time making anything out of the materials on your website. It's an enormous collection of notes of mostly people that seem to have no connection to the Erdnase case. Frederick J. Drake and a couple of others are mentioned, but most of it is about their various ancestors.

Who is the candidate you are proposing? James M. Andrews? Why?

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Re: ERDNASE

Postby Jonathan Townsend » September 7th, 2015, 6:31 pm

That's great to get new information into this discussion. Would you post links to the documents/support data as well?
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Re: ERDNASE

Postby Richard Hatch » September 7th, 2015, 6:51 pm

mam wrote:
Richard Hatch wrote:[…] I strongly believe that S. W. Jamieson filled out the copyright application for Erdnase. He was a co-founder and treasurer of Jamieson-Higgins, not an employee of McKinney, and probably too young himself to have been the author.

I have August 1881 as his birth, is that what you have found as well?

That is the date given in the 1900 Census for him. I believe passport applications are also available which likely give a more specific date, but I don't have access to those.

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Re: ERDNASE

Postby mam » September 7th, 2015, 6:59 pm

Richard Hatch wrote:That is the date given in the 1900 Census for him. I believe passport applications are also available which likely give a more specific date, but I don't have access to those.

It turns out the passport application says August 3, 1880.

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Re: ERDNASE

Postby mam » September 7th, 2015, 8:59 pm

I've started doing some background on Jamieson-Higgins, and while I know others are as well, I thought I'd post what I come up with here.

One starting point is this notice about what eventually becomes the bankruptcy of the firm. The typed out text is as follows:

RECEIVER FOR PRINTING FIRM.

Jamieson-Higgins Company Goes to the Wall—Partner Sues a Bindery Concern.

The Jamieson-Higgins company, book publishers at 334 Dearborn street, was placed in the hands of a receiver yesterday by Judge Kohlsaat. No statement of liabilities and assets was given out. The company did a book printing and publishing business. The officers of the company are Stillman B. Jamieson, Charles Higgins, and Samuel W. Jamieson. Later in the day suit was filed in the Circuit court by Stillman B. Jamieson against the W. G. Godwin company of West Chicago. Jamieson asks the court to appoint a receiver for the company, alleging that he holds its notes for $11,600, secured by a chattel mortgage upon the plant. He declares that there is now due him $12,017, for principal and interest. Besides the Godwin company the bill names T. W. and C. B. Sheridan, Dexter Folder company, and Smyth Manufacturing company of Hartford, Conn., as codefendants.
(Chicago Daily Tribune, December 25, 1902)

So from this we gather the three people running the company:

Stillman Bringham Jamieson

According to his 1913 passport application he was born on July 27, 1875. He was a lawyer at that time, while his WW1 draft record has the more formal (and higher up?) Master in Chancery. He was married to Maurine G. Jamieson and they had at least two children: Hamer Jamieson (born August 23, 1899) and Stillman B. Jamieson Jr. (born July 23, 1900). The 1900 Census also shows a daughter by the name Hester H. Jamieson born in August 1899, which makes no sense if Hamer was born at the same time. Cannot find any other mentions of Hester, so she might have died at a young age. It seems like this part of the Jamieson family later moved to Pasadena, California, but while living in Chicago they had a house at 4510 Woodlawn Avenue. As far as I can tell, this was Stillman B. Jamiesons address in 1902 when EATCT was published and the Jamieson-Higgins company went bankrupt.

Samuel White Jamieson

Stillman's brother, about six years younger. At the time of the 1900 Census he was still staying with his/their parents Thomas Nevin Jamieson and Anna Mary Jamieson (née Bringham) in the house next doors to Stillman. Other than the brother, Samuel also had the sisters Helen M. Jamieson and Alice H. Jamieson. Samuel marries Amy L. Jamieson (née ???) and they have a son, Thomas N. Jamieson, named like Samuel's father. S. W. Jamiesons occupation according to the 1900 Census is Publisher, as we all know, but already in the 1910 Census his occupation has changed to Farmer. Did he give up publishing altogether?

Samuel and Amy Jamieson later seem to have moved to California as well, the Glendale city directory of 1923 shows their address as 900 Matilja Road. What can be gathered from passport applications, ship passenger lists etc., it may be that the Jamiesons moved there to become farmers/ranchers of some sort, i.e. leave the Chicago city life for California country life, sometime around 1918-1919.

Charles Higgins

Have just started to look at Higgins, but as far as I can tell he did quite a bit of publishing, often as chief editor. A number of ads for books he edited can be found, and a couple of newspaper articles as well. I have not yet figured out if another person by the same name was active in Chicago at the same time, I can't say for sure. But I did find Higgins' signature, which might be useful to someone having to compare it at some point.

Well, that's it for now. It was a lot of family background, but I found that an easy place to start. Hopefully this can lead to more useful information on these three guys' publishing activities. Does anyone know if something like incorporation records exist? In other words, is there a record somewhere of the three of them founding Jamieson-Higgins Co.?

By the way, here's a Google spreadsheet I did from the relevant parts of the 1900 Census regarding the Jamieson families.
Last edited by mam on September 7th, 2015, 9:13 pm, edited 2 times in total.

Scott Lane
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Re: ERDNASE

Postby Scott Lane » September 7th, 2015, 9:00 pm

There could possibly be insights to the authorship of the EATCT if you follow the ownership of both the French Lick Springs and West Baden Springs hotels. Other clues might be found in the smaller surrounding hotels, casinos and boarding houses.

Some hotel owners were Hiram Wells, James M. Andrews, Louisville Syndicate, John T. Stout, Amos Stout, James Braden, George W. Campbell, Elvet B. Rhodes, Capt. John C. Howard, Dr. John L. Howard, Lee W. Sinclair, Thomas Taggart and the great Edward Ballard. Some of the other casino owners were Bledsoes, Galloways, Dixons, and Grigsbys.

If you follow these families and their relatives it is amazing how they tie into the story. Some of it hard fact and some of it has not yet been researched and simply conjecture.

Other players come into view with their connections to the hotel owners such as magicians William Hilliar and James Harto.

It may be important to pay attention to the timing of when the hotels changed ownership and the events that surrounded the hotels.

One such event might be that the West Baden Springs hotel burned down in 1901 and the grand reopening was in 1902.

Scott Edward Lane

mam
Posts: 137
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Re: ERDNASE

Postby mam » September 7th, 2015, 9:02 pm

Scott Lane wrote:Some hotel owners were Hiram Wells, James M. Andrews, Louisville Syndicate, John T. Stout, Amos Stout, James Braden, George W. Campbell, Elvet B. Rhodes, Capt. John C. Howard, Dr. John L. Howard, Lee W. Sinclair, Thomas Taggart and the great Edward Ballard. Some of the other casino owners were Bledsoes, Galloways, Dixons, and Grigsbys.

If you follow these families and their relatives it is amazing how they tie into the story. Some of it hard fact and some of it has not yet been researched and simply conjecture.

Could you provide some examples of how any of the names above tie into the story? Not trying to be dense on purpose here, I'm just not getting the connections.

Richard Hatch
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Re: ERDNASE

Postby Richard Hatch » September 7th, 2015, 9:22 pm

Here's a nice page with info about Jamieson-Higgins:
http://www.georgewpeck.com/publishers/jamieson.html

Carlo Morpurgo
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Location: Columbia, MO

Re: ERDNASE

Postby Carlo Morpurgo » September 7th, 2015, 10:01 pm

mam wrote:Scott,

I'm having a very hard time making anything out of the materials on your website. It's an enormous collection of notes of mostly people that seem to have no connection to the Erdnase case. Frederick J. Drake and a couple of others are mentioned, but most of it is about their various ancestors.

Who is the candidate you are proposing? James M. Andrews? Why?


I would assume, naively, that the main reason is that he was an expert card dealer who owned a hotel/casino, combined with the fact that "James Andrews" does yield SW ERDNASE in the usual way. (Other combinations such as SW ERDNASEM, SW ERDNASEMA, etc. being less good looking)

By the way, this sounds really good to me!
Last edited by Carlo Morpurgo on September 7th, 2015, 10:29 pm, edited 2 times in total.

Scott Lane
Posts: 63
Joined: December 27th, 2014, 10:09 pm
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Re: ERDNASE

Postby Scott Lane » September 7th, 2015, 10:04 pm

Let’s start with the magician James Harto.

According to Magicpedia:

"His first performance as at the Bristol Museum in Worcester, Massachusetts in 1886.
Years of performing continued with A Night With the Spirit Company, Leon Harto Company, Ringling Shows, Charles Sparks Shows, the original Buffalo Bill Show, The Buffalo Bill and Pawnee Bill Wild West Shows, Hagenbeck and Wallace Shows, Robinson Shows, and the Walter L. Main Show and vaudeville. He played all over the United States and Canada.
Later he became a dealer in magical apparatus in Indianapolis, Indiana”

Edward Ballard started out dealing in the Rat Club in a small town outside of French Lick called Paoli. This little casino opened on the day of President Lincoln’s inauguration. There is a picture of it on the website – http://www.flwbmuseum.com. He was later hired by Lee W. Sinclair, where he started out as a bowling alley pin setter. He soon rose through the ranks to head up the casino at the hotel. He became very successful and eventually became the owner the West Baden Springs Hotel. He was so successful that he became the gambling kingpin in the area owning many casinos and hotels. He later bought and owned almost every major circus and traveling show in the United States except for Ringling Brothers. He eventually sold all of his circuses to the Ringling Brothers just a few days before the stock market crash. He walked away with the money and smelling like a rose.

Remember that almost all circuses at that time had a gambling tent.

The next post I will provide some interesting coincidences from TMWWE that relate to some of the other hotel/casino owners.

Scott Edward Lane

Roger M.
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Joined: January 17th, 2008, 12:00 pm

Re: ERDNASE

Postby Roger M. » September 7th, 2015, 11:47 pm

Scott, in a nutshell, who is your candidate - and why is he potentially the author of EATCT?

I have a difficult time with teasers, in that I can't see clearly where you're going in terms of why this fellow might be S.W. Erdnase.

Thanks.

Pete McCabe
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Location: Simi Valley, CA

Re: ERDNASE

Postby Pete McCabe » September 8th, 2015, 2:51 am

Sorry to disagree, Roger, but I think Scott should put the information out in any way he pleases. We've all waited over a hundred years to find out who Erdnase was, another couple of days won't hurt.

Richard Stokes
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Joined: September 11th, 2008, 8:18 pm

Re: ERDNASE

Postby Richard Stokes » September 8th, 2015, 3:59 am

Just curious, but Is this now the longest Genii thread?

Scott Lane
Posts: 63
Joined: December 27th, 2014, 10:09 pm
Favorite Magician: Dai Vernon

Re: ERDNASE

Postby Scott Lane » September 8th, 2015, 6:57 am

I don’t wish to confuse anyone on the identity of the person(s) that I believe are responsible for the authorship of TEATCT. I said from the beginning that my research has taken me in different directions than most Erdnase hunters.

I think this may be the resting place of James M. Andrews. This is the link.

http://www.findagrave.com/cgi-bin/fg.cg ... =92553715&

I think this may be his wife’s resting place. This is the link.

http://www.findagrave.com/cgi-bin/fg.cg ... 14&df=all&

Scott Edward Lane

Richard Hatch
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Re: ERDNASE

Postby Richard Hatch » September 8th, 2015, 7:38 am

Scott, those gravesite links both show people with last name "Andrew" not "Andrews". Is that just a typo?

Scott Lane
Posts: 63
Joined: December 27th, 2014, 10:09 pm
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Re: ERDNASE

Postby Scott Lane » September 8th, 2015, 8:01 am

Thank you for commenting Richard. I hope you had a safe trip back from Magic Live.

These may not be the correct gravesites. I don’t have all the answers. Please follow this link. I believe this might be the family of the hotel/casino owners.

http://www.in.gov/library/4252.htm

Scott Edward Lane


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