ERDNASE

Discuss general aspects of Genii.
Pete McCabe
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Re: ERDNASE

Postby Pete McCabe » September 9th, 2012, 12:59 am

1. How are you still alive? You must be 140 years old.

2. Do you follow the thread about your book on the Genii forum?

3. Did Houdini really invent the First Transformation, Two Hands?

4. Did you ever use any of the moves in your book to cheat people out of money, and if so, can I have some? Answer the second question first.

5. Are you thinking of making a video?

Geno Munari
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Re: ERDNASE

Postby Geno Munari » September 11th, 2012, 7:12 am

I have really enjoyed the previous posts on the questions.

One more:

Where did you get the material for the 8 King set up?

Larry Horowitz
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Re: ERDNASE

Postby Larry Horowitz » September 11th, 2012, 12:43 pm

Question: If you needed the money, why didn't you just use you knowledge and win it?

Question: Why did you want anonymity ?

Question: Why are there two sections in the book? Who was your target audience?

Tom Sawyer
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Re: ERDNASE

Postby Tom Sawyer » September 15th, 2012, 12:03 am

Hi All,

Concerning the "Eight Kings" arrangement that Geno Munari mentioned, one of the interesting features of the Erdnase version is that it says "from one sick knave." I suspect, but am not sure, that "for one sick knave" was more prevalent.

New Era Card Tricks and Modern Magic both show "for one sick knave."

It seems that there were (and are) a number of variations of that mnemonic, some of which may make the meaning a little more obscure than others.

The Man Who Was Erdnase mentions a number of references to the arrangement that predate Erdnase.

--Tom Sawyer

Tom Sawyer
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Re: ERDNASE

Postby Tom Sawyer » September 16th, 2012, 3:21 am

Hi All,

One of the "Eight Kings" or related mnemonics that uses "from one sick knave" is found in The Games Book for Boys and Girls.

The version in that book is:

Eighty kings threatened to save
Ninety-five ladies from one sick knave.


I believe that the book is undated, and that no name is given for the author. The Hathi Trust Digital Library shows [1906].

Here is a link.

Obviously, the foregoing was apparently published after The Expert at the Card Table.

A much earlier version that includes the phrase from one sick knave is found in the May 9, 1863, issue of The Saturday Review, in an anonymous review of an 1863 edition of Robert-Houdin's The Sharper Detected and Exposed.

The review says:

All schoolboy conjurors in England are familiar with the deep meaning which underlies the surface of

Eight kings threaten to save
Nine fine queens from one sick knave.


Here is a link.

Those two, and Erdnase, are the only ones I know of from 1906 or before that say "from one sick knave," but none of the three are wholly identical to each other. However, the basic jingle, with variations, appeared in quite a few places earlier than 1902, a number of which I am not familiar with. (The 1906 item, because of the year, probably is not super-relevant, and I am not completely sure why I mentioned it.)

The following is part of what Erdnase said. He capitalized "Knave." I suppose that probably makes no difference:

The usual plan is to arrange the whole pack in the order suggested by the following jingle, viz.:

Eight Kings threatened to save
Ninety-five Queens from one sick Knave.


--Tom Sawyer

Geno Munari
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Re: ERDNASE

Postby Geno Munari » September 20th, 2012, 7:04 am

Tom
Thanks for the link. Most fascinating.

Bill Mullins
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Re: ERDNASE

Postby Bill Mullins » September 23rd, 2012, 4:19 pm

From time to time I see queries about hardback copies of Erdnase. Right now, there are a couple of copies of "Card Mastery" by Mickey/Michael Macdougall in HB available on Abebooks for $40-45. This includes the full text of "Expert at the Card Table".

This is substantially less than I see the HB 1944 Fleming/Powner editions offered for lately.

As to whether either of them are "worth" these figures, I won't say (I got a HB "Card Mastery", with DJ, for about $15 on Abebooks a year or so ago, and a HB copy with DJ went for $17 plus shipping on ebay last month.)

Leonard Hevia
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Re: ERDNASE

Postby Leonard Hevia » September 23rd, 2012, 6:40 pm

The prices for the 1944 Powner editions are rising out of control. The late McKinven's copy from the last Potter Auction sold for well over $100.00. Copies on eBay have sold for more than $200.00. One copy did sell for $9.95 on eBay this past August by a seller who had no idea of the value of this book. I can imagine the buyer grinning from ear to ear like the Cheshire cat from Alice in Wonderland.

Roger M.
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Re: ERDNASE

Postby Roger M. » October 10th, 2012, 12:26 pm

A regression to a few "pages" ago in this thread.
I'm reading Hurt's book, "Artifice, Ruse & Erdnase" for the third time over, and I'd just like to give a shout out to just how well written, and well researched it is.

Although I can't really imagine any serious Erdnase researcher not already having a copy, if in fact you don't have a copy, you might definitely consider picking one up.

It's tempting to (based on posts in this thread) think of Hurt's book as only a summation of pre-existing Erdnase research (which it does contain), but Hurt also introduces new and different ways of looking at elements of the case, such that he definitely provides new insight in to some of the old nuggets and theories that folks hold as their own.

Hurt cautions folks not to let their predisposed ideas and theories about who Erdnase is (or isn't) interfere in a negative manner with keeping an open mind and continuing the search until something of substance is found.

This Genii thread (IMO) remains the most important written document on the search for Erdnase, and Hurt references this thread (along with many other sources) in his book. Although there are many points in this thread that he doesn't reference, those he does are certainly important enough to warrant specific re-reading.

I find that there are two critically important books in the timeline of Erdnase research.
They are "S.W. Erdnase: Another View" by Thomas A. Sawyer, and
"Artifice, Ruse & Erdnase" by Hurt McDermott.

"The Man Who Was Erdnase" remains an important, reference, but doesn't (IMO) hit the mark of the two books above due to the multiple unconfirmed leaps of faith taken by the authors, and the utter failure (of the authors) to consider that their conclusion could be in error.

Hurt's book...it's a winner...buy it, read it, enjoy it!

(I don't know Hurt, have never met him or conversed with him, and know very little about him...I just appreciate the quality of the work he put into his book).

SwanJr
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Re: ERDNASE

Postby SwanJr » October 16th, 2012, 4:46 pm

Roger,

Thank you so much for your words about Artifice, Ruse & Erdnase. Knowing it has brought pleasure and, hopefully, enlightenment to such a careful reader has really made my day.

Thanks again,

Hurt

Bill Mullins
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Re: ERDNASE

Postby Bill Mullins » October 16th, 2012, 4:56 pm

Hear, hear.

It is unimaginable that any future writings about Erdnase will fail to build on what Hurt has written.

An excellent book, and no one who is interested in the subject should be without it.

Tom Sawyer
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Re: ERDNASE

Postby Tom Sawyer » October 16th, 2012, 8:40 pm

Hi All,

I thought about posting something in reply to Rogers post about Hurt McDermotts outstanding book Artifice, Ruse & Erdnase. I even wrote something I was thinking about posting, but I didnt post it.

It is hard for me to write something that is adequately refined, and expresses certain nuances that I might want to include.

I am still leaving out the nuances, at least for now.

However -- from what I have read of Hurts book -- I think I can say that it is easily the best book out there with regard to coverage of the S.W. Erdnase authorship controversy.

I have not read everything relating to the authorship of The Expert at the Card Table, but I have read a lot of it, and as of now it would be hard for me to imagine that anything else out there is in the same league as Hurts book.

I have corresponded a little with Hurt about the book, but I dont think that influenced the foregoing opinions!

--Tom Sawyer

SwanJr
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Re: ERDNASE

Postby SwanJr » October 19th, 2012, 4:52 pm

I want to thank Tom Sawyer and Bill Mullins for taking the time to take notice of my work, ARTIFICE, RUSE & ERDNASE. Given the great respect I feel for both these men's work and the influence Thomas Sawyer's work in particular has had on my own thinking concerning the authorship question, nothing could be more gratifying than the positive feelings they express towards my book. Thank you both.

--Hurt McDermott

Rick Ruhl
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Re: ERDNASE

Postby Rick Ruhl » October 20th, 2012, 1:36 am

After reading Hurt's book. I went back and looked at the illustrations.

Has anyone noticed that none of them have a wedding band, or any sort of ring, on Erdnase fingers?

Could that narrow it down?

Bill Mullins
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Re: ERDNASE

Postby Bill Mullins » October 20th, 2012, 3:24 pm

Did married men typically wear wedding bands in 1902?

John Signa
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Re: ERDNASE

Postby John Signa » October 20th, 2012, 5:07 pm

Male wedding rings didn't become commonplace until 1930s or so.

Jonathan Townsend
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Re: ERDNASE

Postby Jonathan Townsend » October 20th, 2012, 5:53 pm

Commonplace among the wealthy? among Americans?

Okay, where do you look to see if a wedding ring is male?
Mundus vult decipi -per Caleb Carr's story Killing Time

Rick Ruhl
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Re: ERDNASE

Postby Rick Ruhl » October 23rd, 2012, 1:07 pm

More 'out loud' thinking.

Let's 'assume' the notation in Houdini's copy of EATCT is correct. Just at a glance and I'm no handwriting expert, it looks like Bess's handwriting.

So if we do a search on Samuel Roberts Andrews, we find one in East Fallowfield, PA Born in 1861.

According to E.L. Pratt, Erdnase was identified as Andrews but not with the E.S and that he was from PA.

According to Marshall Smith, we have a man in his 30's or 40's (which would fit this person)

Louis Dalrymple was born in 1865, so that would put these two men at the same age.

And there were many Dalrymple's in PA at the time.

Nothing conclusive here.. just thoughts... but you take that one leap of faith and things start to fall into place.


Rick

Rick Ruhl
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Re: ERDNASE

Postby Rick Ruhl » October 23rd, 2012, 2:16 pm

Whoops and it's Samuel Robert Andrews not Roberts, Birthday March 5, 1861. Lived in Crump MI, also.

Bill Mullins
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Re: ERDNASE

Postby Bill Mullins » October 30th, 2012, 12:33 pm

Theo Hardison's Poker (1914) is of some interest to Erdnase enthusiasts -- it covers some of the same ground, and copies some of the text.

Potter and Potter sold a copy last June for $450. It looks like Natalie Galustian got it.

Rick Ruhl
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Re: ERDNASE

Postby Rick Ruhl » October 30th, 2012, 8:41 pm

Interesting...no one claimed copyright infringement then?

crandash
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Re: ERDNASE

Postby crandash » November 8th, 2012, 6:40 pm

Excuse me if this has been covered previously, I had an opportunity to visit the special archives at UNLV this past week. I spent some time with the 1918?? Drake Edition Embossed copy. I found it strange that the book only has 178 pages finishing with the Invisible Flight.

And the other 11 card tricks as well as the additional 27 pages were left out of this edition.


Chad Randash
Chad Randash

Richard Hatch
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Re: ERDNASE

Postby Richard Hatch » November 8th, 2012, 8:29 pm

crandash wrote:Excuse me if this has been covered previously, I had an opportunity to visit the special archives at UNLV this past week. I spent some time with the 1918?? Drake Edition Embossed copy. I found it strange that the book only has 178 pages finishing with the Invisible Flight.

And the other 11 card tricks as well as the additional 27 pages were left out of this edition.

Chad Randash


Noted in previous bibliographies. Busby/Whaley speculated that this might have been an earlier prototype, but at that time it was the only known such copy (undated 178 page Drake Hardback). Since then, other copies of this edition have surfaced. Many of the later Drake editions had just 178 pages. There was also a 190 page edition, which seems to be the scarcest of the Drake editions. To date, no hardbound 190 page editions have surfaced, though it seems likely one was issued.

crandash
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Re: ERDNASE

Postby crandash » November 10th, 2012, 12:02 pm

Thank you for that Sir!
Chad Randash

SwanJr
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Re: ERDNASE

Postby SwanJr » November 15th, 2012, 9:05 pm

Thank you, Roger, for being the 1st one to call attention to my book, ARTIFICE, RUSE & ERDNASE on the Genii thread. I really appreciate your public support!

With Warm Regards,

Hurt McDermott

Bill Mullins
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Re: ERDNASE

Postby Bill Mullins » January 5th, 2013, 7:52 pm

Longtime readers of this thread know that Edwin Sumner Andrews, a traveling railroad agent who Richard Hatch has put forward as a possible author of Expert, lived in Denver in the late 1890s. We think of these potential authors as magicians or card players, but it's easy to forget that their lives included the same mundane concerns as we all do.

From the Denver Rocky Mountain News, of 3/16/1899:

Lost 2 Fox terrier dogs, white with black spots; return E. S. Andrews 1434 Champa; reward.

And two weeks later, in the Denver Post of 3/29 and 3/30:

Lost Two fox terrier dogs, white, two black spots and three black spots. Drop card or return E. S. Andrews, 1434 Champa; reward.

Something must have happened about that time, because the next ad (Denver Post, 4/1 and 4/2) is of a much stronger tone:

Lost Fox terrier dog, white, three black spots; reward. E. S. Andrews, 1434 Champa; will pay $5 for information that enables me to successfully prosecute any person detaining this dog.

I wonderdid one dog get returned or come home? Or did he have evidence that someone had taken them?

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Richard Kaufman
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Re: ERDNASE

Postby Richard Kaufman » January 5th, 2013, 9:06 pm

"Luca Brassi sleeps with the fishes"
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Bill Mullins
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Re: ERDNASE

Postby Bill Mullins » January 5th, 2013, 9:31 pm

Do you think Giorgio was involved?

J Christensen
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Re: ERDNASE

Postby J Christensen » January 6th, 2013, 8:08 am

While reading Roberto Giobbi's book "Confidences" I encountered the following sentence:One of the hotest theories I've recently heard is one by Jaun Tamariz, who believes l'Homme Masque (1835-1913), Peru's Jose Antenor de Gago y Zavala, was Erdnase, or at least behind part if not all of the text, text that some think was written by William Hilliar (1876-1936), founder of the Sphinx magazine and ghost writer of several magic books of the period.

Giobbi goes on to say that Tamariz also mentioned that de Gago may have passed along information from the enigmatic Charlier.

Wow! Anyone know anything about this? I co-authored a biographical piece about l'Homme Masque published in Genii, Vol. 63, No. 7, July 2000 don't recall anything hinting at a connection between de Gago and the writing and publication of the Expert at the Card Table.

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Joe Pecore
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Re: ERDNASE

Postby Joe Pecore » January 6th, 2013, 9:01 am

I believe that Tamariz explained his reasons for l'Homme Masque as a candidate for Erdnase during the 9th Congress of the Latin American Federation of Magic Societies (FLASOMA 2009) held in Peru.
Share your knowledge on the MagicPedia wiki.

J Christensen
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Re: ERDNASE

Postby J Christensen » January 6th, 2013, 10:41 am

Joe, thanks for the information. Would you share some of his evidence for such a claim?

Richard Hatch
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Re: ERDNASE

Postby Richard Hatch » January 6th, 2013, 10:49 am

De Gago is one of the few performers of the period known to have been equally active in the worlds of gambling and magic. He was also highly regarded for his creative sleight of hand skills. He was also a close friend and associate of T. Nelson Downs (they roomed together for several months in Monte Carlo I believe) and Downs, in turn, was associated with Hilliar, to whom Busby/Whaley give ghostwriting/editing credit on the book. He also clearly enjoyed disguising his identity. Those seem to be the primary points in his favor. Alas, the circumstantial evidence against him being the author (did not speak English well, never came to America, nothing like the man remembered by M D Smith) seems pretty overwhelming.

J Christensen
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Re: ERDNASE

Postby J Christensen » January 6th, 2013, 11:02 am

Good to hear from you Richard. Some of those reasons are why I was so surprised to read the statement in Giobbi's book.

J Christensen
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Re: ERDNASE

Postby J Christensen » January 6th, 2013, 11:48 am

I assume this has nothing to do with Gazzo's letter. So Tamariz had no real evidence for his supposition?

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Richard Kaufman
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Re: ERDNASE

Postby Richard Kaufman » January 6th, 2013, 12:13 pm

Tamariz is not a dummy--he must have some very strong reasons for his beliefs.
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Ted M
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Re: ERDNASE

Postby Ted M » January 6th, 2013, 12:45 pm

Bill Mullins wrote:From the Denver Rocky Mountain News, of 3/16/1899:

Lost 2 Fox terrier dogs, white with black spots; return E. S. Andrews 1434 Champa; reward.

And two weeks later, in the Denver Post of 3/29 and 3/30:

Lost Two fox terrier dogs, white, two black spots and three black spots. Drop card or return E. S. Andrews, 1434 Champa; reward.

Something must have happened about that time, because the next ad (Denver Post, 4/1 and 4/2) is of a much stronger tone:

Lost Fox terrier dog, white, three black spots; reward. E. S. Andrews, 1434 Champa; will pay $5 for information that enables me to successfully prosecute any person detaining this dog.

Card revelation(s) via newspaper?

Jason England
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Re: ERDNASE

Postby Jason England » January 7th, 2013, 4:14 pm

Trouble, Huey and I always suspected Erdnase was a dog lover. This clinches it.

Jason

Bill Mullins
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Re: ERDNASE

Postby Bill Mullins » January 25th, 2013, 12:40 pm

This may be related to Todd Karr's candidate for Erdnase, a swindler who went by the name of E. S. Andrews.
Nevada State Journal 8/30/1939 p 1
TWO SWINDLING SUSPECTS HELD
Sparks Woman Fails To Bite Bait
SPARKS, Aug. 29. Chief of Police Al Bassimier and Officer M. O. Anderson, set and baited the trap that landed two swindlers behind prison bars late Tuesday night.

Anderson received a call early Tuesday from Mrs. M. A. Benson on C street explaining an unusual offer that had been made to her by two strange men. Anderson in turn called the chief of police who went to see Mrs. Benson.

She had been told by the men that her husband, who died several years ago, had owned property in Texas and that taxes had to be met at this time, and other miscellaneous bills had to be paid, the sum amounting to $98. She stalled the men off and sent a telegram to Texas and found that no property had been owned by her husband.

The men had been told by her, after instructions by the chief of police, to return at 7:30 when she would pay them the money, as she had to borrow it from a friend. Bassimier went to Mrs. Benson's home at 6:30 and there had one of the men tell him the story and asked him if he could prove his claim of having the lease on the property. The man said he could and showed him the lease, a forgery. He was told that there was no property of that nature in Texas owned by Mr. Benson and was arrested. His partner was arrested outside in a parked automobile by Police Officer Anderson and the pair admitted the charge of swindling after questioning.

J. B. Mitchell, alias J B. Crawford, alias E. S. Andrews has served time in San Quentin, Folsom, Los Angeles county jail, and is wanted in Woodland, Calif., for swindling. His accomplice is also wanted in connection with the swindling in Woodland. They are now lodged in the Washoe county jail awaiting trial.

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Re: ERDNASE

Postby Richard Evans » January 27th, 2013, 3:35 pm

Very interesting, Bill. Would be good to know how old they were.
Richard

Futura
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Re: ERDNASE

Postby Futura » January 28th, 2013, 3:42 pm

What happened in the book of Hurt Mc Dermott Artifice , Ruse and Erdnase on page 183 ?? He asks what Erdnase mean with "rimed" and takes this for an evidence supporting Erdnase`s authorship......

It took me some time to figuer it out: it is a misprinting in the online lybrary.com version of the Expert on page 90. It must be read " riffle "and not "rimed" !!!! - thats all. No need to ask OED!


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