ERDNASE

Discuss general aspects of Genii.
Ray Eden
Posts: 352
Joined: May 25th, 2009, 8:57 am
Location: Vantaa, Finland
Contact:

Re: ERDNASE

Postby Ray Eden » August 13th, 2012, 8:38 am

Anyone know anything about the "teaser" Gazzo has dropped about a letter revealing Erdnase's identity?

User avatar
Mr. K
Posts: 42
Joined: July 24th, 2010, 12:39 am
Location: Hogwarts CA

Re: ERDNASE

Postby Mr. K » August 13th, 2012, 10:06 am

This is old Genii revealed him a while ago, Is it real?? no idea they say they did. If you get a chance find the issue with it, or I think there is a book out now that is all about Erdnase. He is still the ONLY man I think that all magicians use his method in cheating magicians & card cheats... & He is the MAN!!! Good luck on your journey on what gazzo is talking about.
>Its Only MAGIC!!<

Tom Sawyer
Posts: 319
Joined: January 7th, 2012, 6:44 pm

Re: ERDNASE

Postby Tom Sawyer » August 14th, 2012, 8:47 pm

Hi All,

Ive always been interested in the situation surrounding the copyright and copyright notices relating to The Expert at the Card Table. One of the reasons for this, I suppose, is the fact that, when taken as a whole, the published information relating to the Erdnase copyright possesses enchanting inconsistencies. Also, no one, as far as I know (and I could be wrong) has seen fit to publish the entirety of the copyright application.

I imagine that there is no more complete, or more accurate, account of the main facts (relating to the copyright) than that at the beginning of Richard Hatch's article Reading Erdnase Backwards, although the facsimile of a portion of the form on page 274 of The Man Who Was Erdnase is also rather revelatory (though the corresponding text is not necessarily completely accurate). (This is not imply criticism of other works that may be just as complete and accurate on the topic.)

I recently ran across a booklet on Google Books entitled Directions for the Registration of Copyrights Under the Laws of the United States. Here is a link.

The little book is dated "July, 1901," on the title page, and though I cannot vouch for the booklet or its applicability to The Expert at the Card Table, it seems quite possible that it deals with the situation as of the time the Erdnase application was submitted. It also seems likely that the booklet on copyright was at least pretty accurate as to the time the booklet (the copyright booklet) was published (apparently July 1901).

The copyright application form reproduced in the little book is quite different from the segment reproduced in TMWWE.

Here is an excerpt from the booklet.

2. When application is made for a book, chromo, lithograph, or photograph, it is necessary to state where the article is printed or made, or whether it is printed or made, or to be printed or made, in the United States.

3. It is not necessary to state the name of the author if it is desired to keep the book or other article anonymous, but the nationality of the author of any literary, dramatic, musical, or artistic work is required in order to determine the fee to be charged, and also to determine whether the article, in the case of a foreign work, is the production of a citizen of some country to the subjects of which country the privilege of copyright in the United States has been extended.

In the case of an author who is a native of a foreign country but a legal or permanent resident of the United States, that fact should be stated, or the citizenship should be given as of the United States. If the author is of foreign nativity but has declared his intention to become a citizen of the United States, that fact should be stated.

4. An entry of copyright claim can not be made unless the application for such entry contains a distinct statement in whose name the claim of copyright is to be registered. The Copyright Office can not infer from the form of application who is the intended claimant. The application must distinctly state the full name and address of the person who claims to be the proprietor of the copyright. No entry can be made in a fictitious name, such as a nom de plume or pseudonym. The real name of the claimant should be stated. Not only does the law require that the real name of the copyright claimant shall be printed in the notice of copyright which it is obligatory to print upon each copy of any article copyrighted, but it also requires that the name of the copyright claimant shall be printed in the catalogue of copyright entries. If an author desires to preserve his anonymity and to avoid putting his name on record, he should arrange to have some other person make the copyright entry in such persons name as proprietor, under an arrangement with himself as author. Entry may be made in the name of a firm, of a corporation, or trustee, or in two or more names as joint authors or proprietors.

5. The blank should be filled up to state whether the copyright is claimed as author or as proprietor of the work whose title is recorded.


I suppose that the following section is of one of the more interesting segments:

No entry can be made in a fictitious name, such as a nom de plume or pseudonym. The real name of the claimant should be stated. Not only does the law require that the real name of the copyright claimant shall be printed in the notice of copyright which it is obligatory to print upon each copy of any article copyrighted, but it also requires that the name of the copyright claimant shall be printed in the catalogue of copyright entries.


So much for Erdnase's vaunted knowledge of copyright law!

Please note, I am not claiming that anything in this post is definitely accurate. I am not any kind of expert on copyright law, past or present.

--Tom Sawyer

Richard Hatch
Posts: 1948
Joined: January 17th, 2008, 12:00 pm
Location: Providence, Utah
Contact:

Re: ERDNASE

Postby Richard Hatch » August 16th, 2012, 12:18 pm

In my research on Edwin S. Andrews, the train agent, one of the things that made him attractive to me was that the more I found out about him, the better he seemed to fit my expectations for the author. I stumbled across him looking for a possible relationship between Louis Dalrymple and attorney James DeWitt Andrews (my preferred candidate at that time, in late 1999). Edwin married Dollie Seely in Sterling, Illinois, J. D. Andrews' hometown. But I soon learned that this E. S. Andrews was living in Denver at that time (1898), working as a travelling agent for the Chicago and Northwestern RR. Denver was of interest as the site of a possible Erdnase sighting (by Hugh Johnston). Andrews dropped out of the Denver directories in 1901 and I found he had been transferred to DeKalb, Illinois, about 60 miles west of Chicago, a move in the right direction since we need the author near Chicago at about that time to meet with the illustrator and printer. I soon learned that although he was stationed in DeKalb, he was actually living in Oak Park, an enclave of Chicago, just minutes by train from downtown Chicago where the author would meet with the illustrator and printer. When I learned that the street he was living on was Austin Blvd, and that the second company to advertise the book in the Sphinx (and at half price the very month he was transferred to San Francisco) was Atlas Novelty Co on Austin Ave in Chicago, this pretty much "clinched" my conviction in him, since it seemed to me extremely unlikely that an E. S. Andrews living on the same street as Atlas and moving away the same month the book dropped in price would be a coincidence. However, thanks to the research of Bill Mullins, I am now convinced that the "proximity" issue (117 S. Austin Blvd. in Oak Park and 295 Austin Ave in Chicago) is just that, a coincidence. We both agree that 117 S. Austin Blvd in Oak Park in 1902 was about 1/3 of a block south of the C & NW RR line which runs east to west. While I had been bothered that Austin Blvd in Oak Park became Austin Ave in Chicago (as shown on maps), I had not taken into account the possibility of a second Austin Ave in Chicago at that time. Bill took a closer look than I had at the 1900 census records for Emil Sorensen (a.k.a., E. S. Burns, owner of Atlas) which do show him residing at 295 Austin Ave in Chicago (his profession is listed as grocery salesman). But Bill took a closer look at the Enumeration District for the census and neighboring streets and found that this particular Austin Ave. was a totally different street, running east-west rather than north-south and was about 5 miles east of E. S. Andrews' residence in Oak Park (both within easy access of the C&NW RR line). While I still personally favor Edwin S. Andrews among the current crop of candidates, the fact that he was not living in the same neighborhood (let alone on the same street) as Atlas certainly weakens the argument in his favor on those grounds.
Thanks to Bill Mullins for sharing his research with me privately and allowing me to post this report here.

Roger M.
Posts: 1487
Joined: January 17th, 2008, 12:00 pm

Re: ERDNASE

Postby Roger M. » August 16th, 2012, 3:16 pm

That's a big piece of news Richard, thanks for sharing it (and thanks to Bill for his simply excellent research).

Bill Mullins
Posts: 5344
Joined: January 17th, 2008, 12:00 pm
Location: Huntsville, AL

Re: ERDNASE

Postby Bill Mullins » August 16th, 2012, 10:35 pm

For anyone who cares, some details on what Richard Hatch posted above.

I believe that Edwin Sumner Andrews did live at 117 S Austin at the times that Richard placed him there. I think we could go to Austin Ave on the east border of Oak Park, and go a couple hundred feet south of what is now South Blvd (Oak Park)/ W. Corcoran Pl (Chicago), and stand in front of the large white apt building that is visible on Google Mapsat 328 Austin, Oak Park, IL and wed be very close to where Edwin Sumner Andrews lived during the time that EATCT was finalized. In fact, the white house just to the left (south) of the apt building may be 117 (but I think it is more likely that it was 115). (You can zoom in tighter and use "Street View" to see the facades of the buildings in question).

But that doesnt locate 295 Austin. Sanborn Fire Insurance maps for 1908 show that 295 Austin in Oak Park (west side of the street) isnt occupied. If you go across the street to the Chicago Side, those are even numbered addresses, and all of the buildings on that side of the street appear to have street addresses located on the cross streets; not on Austin. If you go far enough north on Austin so that you are out of Oak Park altogether, that doesnt work either.

I started searching for E. S. Burns. I found Emil Sorensons 1900 census record HERE.

Hes living at 295 Austin, and is listed as a grocery salesman. I figure that either he hasnt established Atlas as a business yet, or hes lied to the census taker. But the match of name and address makes me believe that this 295 Austin is the same one that Atlas came to operate from.

Censuses were (and are) conducted in Enumeration Districts small geographically contiguous areas. If you page forward and backwards from the page that Sorenson is on, you can find other streets in the same Enumeration District: Ohio, Centre, Grand, Elizabeth, Sinnott. Grand and Austin intersect a couple miles north of 117 S. Austin, but otherwise you cant find these streets near the Oak Park area that Andrews lived in.

And note that the Enumeration District is called West Town. Google Maps shows an area with that name about 5 miles to the east, near the intersection of Damen and Grand. If look at contemporary Chicago maps for the area little farther still to the east, you get a neighborhood that has all the right streets. If you compare the historical maps for that district to current Google Maps and allow for the facts that Centre is now called Racine, that N Ogden has obliterated Sinnott, and that Austin is now called Hubbard (it was renamed in early 1936), you are in the neighborhood that Sorenson lived in. Tom Sawyer posted on his blog a document listing the re-numbering of many Chicago streets in 1909; what was 295 Austin has been renumbered to 1208. I think 1208 Hubbard used to be called 295 Austin, and is the lot where Atlas used to be located (but probably not the same building).

Conclusions:
Edward Sumner Andrews lived at 117 S. Austin Blvd in Oak Park in 1902, a few hundred feet south of the C&NW Railway for which he worked. At the time he moved away, Atlas Trick and Novelty was located on 295 Austin Ave in Chicago, five or so miles east, in a building across the street from, and facing, the same rail line. If Andrews' work for the railway took him into Chicago, he would have gone right by Atlas. In fact, it probably would have taken Andrews no more time to ride the train east from his home to Atlas than it would have taken him to walk 9 blocks north to the location that we've been suspecting for Atlas for several years.

To the extent that this new understanding of the geography "weakens" the case for E. S. Andrews = Erdnase, I don't think it is by very much.

R.E.Byrnes
Posts: 105
Joined: July 18th, 2012, 1:56 pm

Re: ERDNASE

Postby R.E.Byrnes » August 17th, 2012, 5:19 am

"So much for Erdnase's vaunted knowledge of copyright law!"

His using a pseudonym doesn't likely implicate his knowledge of copyright law. In all of time, I doubt anyone has been criminally or civilly prosecuted for violating this provision.

Bill Mullins
Posts: 5344
Joined: January 17th, 2008, 12:00 pm
Location: Huntsville, AL

Re: ERDNASE

Postby Bill Mullins » August 17th, 2012, 6:47 pm

In my post yesterday, I suggested that E. S. Andrews' work for the C&NW railroad may have taken him from Oak Park into Central Chicago, in which case it would have gone right by Atlas.

In fact, the C&NW's Wells Street Station was only 1.2 miles east of 295 Austin on the C&NW line (located approximately where the Merchandise Mart is now), and it was 7.2 miles east of 117 S Austin, where Andrews lived.

Tom Sawyer
Posts: 319
Joined: January 7th, 2012, 6:44 pm

Re: ERDNASE

Postby Tom Sawyer » August 20th, 2012, 8:34 pm

Hi All,

A number of the issues that have been raised by some of the recent posts have to do with the locations of various people and businesses.

Specifically, for example, it is kind of surprising how little is generally known (overall) about the locations (home addresses) of many of the people who are important to the S.W. Erdnase story, during the period of, say, mid-1901 through, say, mid-1903. (The same applies to the addresses of many of the relevant businesses.)

It might not be immediately apparent how such information might be useful. But if (as a made-up example) it turned out that James McKinney lived one door down from E.S. Andrews, that would be rather interesting.

When I saw those census records that Bill Mullins provided a link to, I definitely looked at the names of some of Emil Sorenson's neighbors, to see if I recognized any names (which I didn't).

--Tom Sawyer

User avatar
Richard Kaufman
Posts: 25447
Joined: July 18th, 2001, 12:00 pm
Favorite Magician: Theodore DeLand
Location: Washington DC
Contact:

Re: ERDNASE

Postby Richard Kaufman » August 20th, 2012, 10:58 pm

Mr. Mullins's skills at research enabled me to discover just the type of odd connection to which Tom refers to in the preceding post. I refer to Theodore DeLand, whom at one point used the name "Espenship" for a front as a magic dealer in an ad in The Sphinx. Looking at the other names on a document of DeLand's co-workers at the US Mint provided by Mr. Mullins, I found a guy named "Espenship"! I wonder if the guy ever knew that DeLand was using his name.
Subscribe today to Genii Magazine

Bill Mullins
Posts: 5344
Joined: January 17th, 2008, 12:00 pm
Location: Huntsville, AL

Re: ERDNASE

Postby Bill Mullins » August 21st, 2012, 12:29 pm

Some cartoons by Marshall D. Smith.

A photograph of Smith in his studio. (Or perhaps a self-portrait painting?)

Tom Sawyer
Posts: 319
Joined: January 7th, 2012, 6:44 pm

Re: ERDNASE

Postby Tom Sawyer » August 21st, 2012, 3:52 pm

Hi All,

The way I interpret that photograph, it is not necessarily a portrait of Marshall D. Smith. It is a photograph which Smith made. (More precisely, it is a halftone of a photograph that Smith made with a camera.)

I realize that Smith's name is listed as an "Illustrator" in the bound volume, but then so are the names of others, photographs (halftones) by whom (not "of" whom) are shown.

An example that is probably parallel is a portrait of an artist (William Paul) by photographer Norman Butler, on page 5 of the same bound volume of American Photography.

Still, the picture on page 71 definitely could be a self-portrait of Smith. (For instance, he could have composed everything, and then left it to someone else to snap the picture.)

The foregoing is based on a little spot-check, not on any comprehensive analysis of the periodical!

--Tom Sawyer

User avatar
magicam
Posts: 870
Joined: January 28th, 2009, 8:40 pm

Re: ERDNASE

Postby magicam » August 21st, 2012, 11:27 pm

Bill Mullins wrote:A photograph of Smith in his studio. (Or perhaps a self-portrait painting?)

Bill,
Prove it.
C.

Bill Mullins
Posts: 5344
Joined: January 17th, 2008, 12:00 pm
Location: Huntsville, AL

Re: ERDNASE

Postby Bill Mullins » August 22nd, 2012, 12:02 am

???

I can't. It's a link to a picture, with speculation about what it is. I don't mean to assert more than that.

User avatar
Richard Kaufman
Posts: 25447
Joined: July 18th, 2001, 12:00 pm
Favorite Magician: Theodore DeLand
Location: Washington DC
Contact:

Re: ERDNASE

Postby Richard Kaufman » August 22nd, 2012, 2:17 pm

Let's not get into a back and forth about it.
Subscribe today to Genii Magazine

Tom Sawyer
Posts: 319
Joined: January 7th, 2012, 6:44 pm

Re: ERDNASE

Postby Tom Sawyer » August 23rd, 2012, 1:52 am

Hi All,

By the way, complicated notices similar to those typically on the back of the title page of The Expert at the Card Table are not unheard of elsewhere. An example that is easily findable at the Hathi Trust Digital Library website is:

Ropps New Calculator and Short-Cut Arithmetic, by C. Ropp, Chicago, (1903).

The back of the title page includes the following:

Copyright, 1903, by C. Ropp.

Entered at Stationers' Hall, London, 1903.

Entered according to act of the Parliament of Canada, in the year 1903,
By C. Ropp, at the Department of Agriculture.


I do not know whether that, or that type of thing, is (or was) considered a good approach -- I don't know anything about the legal ramifications of such notices.

--Tom Sawyer

Bob Coyne
Posts: 604
Joined: January 26th, 2008, 12:00 pm
Favorite Magician: Charlies
Location: New York, NY

Re: ERDNASE

Postby Bob Coyne » August 26th, 2012, 5:07 pm

Ray Eden wrote:Anyone know anything about the "teaser" Gazzo has dropped about a letter revealing Erdnase's identity?


I just listened to the Gazzo interview on Magic Newswire and heard him mention this letter too. It'll be very interesting to find out if it's for real and what it actually says.

User avatar
Richard Kaufman
Posts: 25447
Joined: July 18th, 2001, 12:00 pm
Favorite Magician: Theodore DeLand
Location: Washington DC
Contact:

Re: ERDNASE

Postby Richard Kaufman » August 26th, 2012, 7:01 pm

No single letter will identify the true identity of Erdnase with certainty for obvious reasons.
Subscribe today to Genii Magazine

Bob Coyne
Posts: 604
Joined: January 26th, 2008, 12:00 pm
Favorite Magician: Charlies
Location: New York, NY

Re: ERDNASE

Postby Bob Coyne » August 26th, 2012, 8:17 pm

I guess it depends on what it says :-)

But failing absolute certainty, any new evidence one way or the other for any candidate would be great.

User avatar
Richard Kaufman
Posts: 25447
Joined: July 18th, 2001, 12:00 pm
Favorite Magician: Theodore DeLand
Location: Washington DC
Contact:

Re: ERDNASE

Postby Richard Kaufman » August 26th, 2012, 8:41 pm

Frankly, it doesn't matter what the letter says--anyone could have claimed to be the author of Expert Card Technique.

The only kind of letter that would offer some genuine proof would be dated (including its postmarked envelope) prior to the publication of the book and evidence knowledge of the contents.

The postmarked envelope is necessary because anyone could have written a letter and back-dated it, and even the postmarked envelope wouldn't be conclusive because it could have been from an earlier unrelated letter.
Subscribe today to Genii Magazine

Richard Hatch
Posts: 1948
Joined: January 17th, 2008, 12:00 pm
Location: Providence, Utah
Contact:

Re: ERDNASE

Postby Richard Hatch » August 26th, 2012, 9:02 pm

Richard Kaufman wrote:Frankly, it doesn't matter what the letter says--anyone could have claimed to be the author of Expert Card Technique.

Wasn't that written by D. R. Aguh and E. U. Arb?

User avatar
Richard Kaufman
Posts: 25447
Joined: July 18th, 2001, 12:00 pm
Favorite Magician: Theodore DeLand
Location: Washington DC
Contact:

Re: ERDNASE

Postby Richard Kaufman » August 26th, 2012, 9:13 pm

Dang. You caught me.
Subscribe today to Genii Magazine

Bob Coyne
Posts: 604
Joined: January 26th, 2008, 12:00 pm
Favorite Magician: Charlies
Location: New York, NY

Re: ERDNASE

Postby Bob Coyne » August 26th, 2012, 9:53 pm

Both the authenticity and content of the letter matter. For example it might be authentic (proved by whatever means you wish) but have vague or ambiguous content and not really be that conclusive or illuminating. Conversely, as you note, it could have very specific content saying exactly who Erdnase is, but be a forgery or an empty claim. And all sorts of variations of the above.

Also, it's not necessary that the letter be dated prior to the publication of the book. If the letter said "Erdnase is a mining engineer named wilbur sanders" prior to david alexander's article, that would be good enough for me! And there are other ways to establish a date besides a postmark. It would depend on how the letter was discovered, who could vouch for how it was discovered, what the letter actually says, its consistency with other evidence (are there other letters by the same person), etc.

Anyway, it's hard to say much without knowing more about it. But I find this intriguing and hope it actually pans out to be something...even if inconclusive.

Bill Mullins
Posts: 5344
Joined: January 17th, 2008, 12:00 pm
Location: Huntsville, AL

Re: ERDNASE

Postby Bill Mullins » August 26th, 2012, 10:22 pm

Galloway or Gallaway?

Jay Marshall owned a copy of the first edition of Expert with a bookplate from Edward Gallaway, a printer. This is often said to be the person with whom James McKinney formed a partnership "McKinney & Galloway". I think there is reason to believe that they were two different people.

Gallaway:
The May 2007 auction from Jay Marshall's estate includes the above copy of Expert (lot 101), and the auction catalog reproduces a copy of a note from Marshall referring to Edward Gallaway (unfortunately, the bookplate is not pictured).

TMWWE makes multiple references to Edward Gallaway, but all can be traced back to research by Marshall.

1910 census
Edward Gallaway, age 41, address 3353 Polk St. Occupation printer, works at a print shop. Born Ohio, mother born Ireland, father born US. Wife Rose (age 37), daughter Julia (age 16), son William (age 7)

The American Printer
(May 20, 1922, p. 62) tells of Edward Galloway of Chicago offering a class in estimating (I think this is Edward Gallaway with the name misspelled).

From the Chicago Tribune, May 11, 1930, p. 16
Ed. Gallaway, Printing Trade Estimator, Dies

Edward Gallaway, 67 years old, 5429 West Harrison street, president of the Printers' Estimating school, died Friday afternoon. He was widely known as a printing estimator. He established the school in the Transportation building six year ago, at which time he was chief estimator for R. R. Donnelly & Sons company.



Galloway:
Chicago Daily Tribune, 3 Feb 1903 p. 11

New Incorporations. . . .
The McKinney and Galloway company, Chicago: capital, $2,500; printing, publishing and engraving:
incorporators, James McKinney, Patrick J. McKinney, and Arthur Stern.


1905 Biennial Report of the Secretary of State of the State of Illinois (for years 1 Oct 1902 30 Sept 1904) (online at Archive.org)
McKinney & Galloway, incorporated Feb 19 1903


1900 census has William J Galloway, printer, 6032 Halsted St

1901 Chicago City Directory has:
Edward Gallaway printer h 147 Dearborn Av
William J Galloway printer h 6032 Union av

I think it is entirely possible that McKinney formed a partnership with William Galloway, not Edward Gallaway. If the incorporation papers from the Illinois Secretary of State could be examined, that could resolve the ambiguities from the two different spellings of "Galloway/Gallaway".

Tom Sawyer
Posts: 319
Joined: January 7th, 2012, 6:44 pm

Re: ERDNASE

Postby Tom Sawyer » August 31st, 2012, 2:07 am

Hi All,

In a recent post, I discussed one of the reasons why I am not convinced that Edwin S. Andrews (the railroad guy) was S.W. Erdnase. That had to do with the photograph of E.S. Andrews and his family.

By the way, I am not necessarily super-enamored of such arguments, even though I did make that argument. It seems to be such a hyper-subjective type of thing, at least the way I made the argument, and based a lot on "feelings" or "impressions."

In this post, I am going to summarize one of the other main reasons I am not convinced. The argument below is also quite subjective, or so it seems to me. It is certainly not enough to demolish any clear proof to the contrary.

Anyway . . .

I do not intend this post to be anything like an exhaustive treatment of the topic. I realize that people can and sometimes do change. I realize that no one person can be placed into one simple category, even for any short period of the persons life. I realize that S.W. Erdnase might have been nothing like the way the book portrayed him. So this post represents some impressions and opinions, but it is based on much of what I have seen regarding The Expert at the Card Table and about E.S. Andrews (the railroad man).

But from what I have observed, the following seems un-"Erdnase-like."

In an obituary for E.S. Andrews, in the October 1922 issue of Pere Marquette Magazine, it is stated, in part:

He was undoubtedly the best liked railroad man in California is the succinct statement made by one of his friends. He was generous to a fault.

. . . Piedmont Columbaria chapel at Oakland, where the services were held, was crowded to the doors for the first time in its history. Friends, among the railroad fraternity, attended the services from all parts of California.


I have discussed that a little on one of my blogs, but really, the foregoing depiction of Andrews seems completely inconsistent with the image of Erdnase as portrayed by his book (as far as my incomplete knowledge of the book goes).

Hmmm . . .

". . . generous to a fault."

". . . undoubtedly the best liked railroad man in California."

". . . crowded to the doors for the first time in its history."


To me, that doesn't sound like S.W. Erdnase.

--Tom Sawyer

Tom Sawyer
Posts: 319
Joined: January 7th, 2012, 6:44 pm

Re: ERDNASE

Postby Tom Sawyer » September 5th, 2012, 2:33 am

Hi All,

A man named David Levy is a collector and bibliographer of books on card games and related subjects, primarily of works by Edmond Hoyle. He operates a blog called Edmond Hoyle, Gent.

Even though it is only remotely related to magic, I imagine that most magic collectors and people interested in magic history would find it of considerable interest.

In a recent post, David sets forth the five top questions he would pose to Edmond Hoyle, if he had the opportunity.

When I saw that post, I immediately thought something like this: What five questions would I ask S.W. Erdnase if I had the opportunity?

Fairly quickly, three things dawned on me:

1. I dont have any well thought-out questions ready to ask S.W. Erdnase.

2. To come up with decent questions would take quite a bit of thought.

3. The less one knows about S.W. Erdnase and his book, the more difficult it is to come up with good questions.

There may possibly be a tendency to come up with questions which are probably more or less mundane, or a waste of the opportunity.

For instance, I seriously doubt that one of my top questions would be, Did you really 'need the money'? That question could probably be answered yes, or no, so unless Erdnase were in talking mood, I might regret having asked such a question.

I know that many people have pondered that question, but I doubt that it would be in my top five.

If I could ask him a hundred questions, it wouldnt be so hard.

Limiting it to five makes it a bit difficult.

On the other hand, if I could ask him only one question, I think I know what that would be!

--Tom Sawyer

Bill Mullins
Posts: 5344
Joined: January 17th, 2008, 12:00 pm
Location: Huntsville, AL

Re: ERDNASE

Postby Bill Mullins » September 5th, 2012, 8:25 am

1. Why did you write the book? (Was it really because you "need the money"?)

2. Have you ever used any of the moves you described to cheat in a game?

3. Have you ever performed magic for a paying audience?

4. When describing the back palm, you say it helped you out of a difficult situation -- "but that is another story." What is the story?

5. [s]Who was your teacher?[/s] or better still, How did you come to learn the material in your book?


While some of these could be answered with a single word, I'd hope he is a talkative sort, and would elaborate.

User avatar
Corneilius Jay
Posts: 90
Joined: January 14th, 2012, 3:43 pm
Location: Republic of Ireland

Re: ERDNASE

Postby Corneilius Jay » September 5th, 2012, 9:36 am

Richard Kaufman wrote:I have just received the facsimile first edition of Expert at the Card Table which is being distributed by Michael Canick and it is THE edition to have if you love this book. I do have a first edition and it looks virtually identical.


Are these first edition copies still available?

I realise this is a post from 2003 I was just wondering as I'd love to get my hands in a first Ed. fake or not.
Regards.
Neil.

User avatar
Richard Kaufman
Posts: 25447
Joined: July 18th, 2001, 12:00 pm
Favorite Magician: Theodore DeLand
Location: Washington DC
Contact:

Re: ERDNASE

Postby Richard Kaufman » September 5th, 2012, 10:33 am

That facsimile now sells for a high price and has become a collectible.
Subscribe today to Genii Magazine

Roger M.
Posts: 1487
Joined: January 17th, 2008, 12:00 pm

Re: ERDNASE

Postby Roger M. » September 5th, 2012, 10:48 am

I don't know if "fake" would be the right word Neil, nobody is now, or ever was trying to fob it off as an actual first edition.

It's a near perfect facsimile, which due to acid free paper, modern bindings, etc should last a very long while.

But for all that's identical between this and a first edition, the facsimile is clearly identified as a such on the title page.

These facsimiles have been going for anywhere from $250.00 to a high of just over $350.00 lately.

User avatar
Corneilius Jay
Posts: 90
Joined: January 14th, 2012, 3:43 pm
Location: Republic of Ireland

Re: ERDNASE

Postby Corneilius Jay » September 5th, 2012, 11:11 am

I wasn't intending to imply anything by the word "fake"
Though for fear of sounding cheeky the word facsimile is a synonym of the word fake

The price is too rich for my blood right now but I'll keep an eye open.
Regards.

Neil.

Roger M.
Posts: 1487
Joined: January 17th, 2008, 12:00 pm

Re: ERDNASE

Postby Roger M. » September 5th, 2012, 1:03 pm

OK, if you risk being cheeky, I'll tread into being boringly pedantic :)

I believe "fake" implies an intended element of deception to some degree, whereas "facsimile" only indicates that there's been an effort to "make alike", with absolutely no deception intended or resultant.

There, seriously pedantic :)

User avatar
Corneilius Jay
Posts: 90
Joined: January 14th, 2012, 3:43 pm
Location: Republic of Ireland

Re: ERDNASE

Postby Corneilius Jay » September 5th, 2012, 1:53 pm

So what your saying in less words "facsimile" is a nicer less offensive way of saying "fake"?
Ok I'll agree with that.
;)
Regards.

Neil.

User avatar
Richard Kaufman
Posts: 25447
Joined: July 18th, 2001, 12:00 pm
Favorite Magician: Theodore DeLand
Location: Washington DC
Contact:

Re: ERDNASE

Postby Richard Kaufman » September 5th, 2012, 1:56 pm

Let's just stop this now. A "facsimile" is a self-proclaimed reproduction. A "fake" is attempting to pass itself off as original.
Subscribe today to Genii Magazine

Roger M.
Posts: 1487
Joined: January 17th, 2008, 12:00 pm

Re: ERDNASE

Postby Roger M. » September 5th, 2012, 2:17 pm

It was all in good humor Richard.
Thus the numerous emoticons from both Neil and myself.

Geez.

User avatar
Richard Kaufman
Posts: 25447
Joined: July 18th, 2001, 12:00 pm
Favorite Magician: Theodore DeLand
Location: Washington DC
Contact:

Re: ERDNASE

Postby Richard Kaufman » September 5th, 2012, 6:46 pm

I misinterpreted your messages as facsimiles of a genuine disagreement. :)
Subscribe today to Genii Magazine

Tom Sawyer
Posts: 319
Joined: January 7th, 2012, 6:44 pm

Re: ERDNASE

Postby Tom Sawyer » September 5th, 2012, 7:13 pm

Hi All,

Those are five really good "questions for S.W. Erdnase" that Bill Mullins stated, in my opinion.

One that I might have might be similar to one of David Levy's questions that he would ask Hoyle. I would probably want to ask S.W. Erdnase something like this. I would count this as one question:

What were the names of your students? Where did you meet them? What did you teach them? How did you teach them? Where did you teach them? How long did you spend with each student?

--Tom Sawyer

Bill Mullins
Posts: 5344
Joined: January 17th, 2008, 12:00 pm
Location: Huntsville, AL

Re: ERDNASE

Postby Bill Mullins » September 6th, 2012, 11:19 pm

Tom Sawyer recently linked to David Levy's fascinating blog on Edmond Hoyle. Although Levy's interest are mainly 150 years prior to Erdnase, some of his posts are quite relevant to our discussion.

For example, in this post he discusses reasons that a copyright holder might wish to obscure who published a book -- sound familiar?

Daniel Bain
Posts: 52
Joined: June 18th, 2008, 1:26 am

Re: ERDNASE

Postby Daniel Bain » September 7th, 2012, 6:47 pm

Tom Sawyer wrote:Hi All,

Those are five really good "questions for S.W. Erdnase" that Bill Mullins stated, in my opinion.

One that I might have might be similar to one of David Levy's questions that he would ask Hoyle. I would probably want to ask S.W. Erdnase something like this. I would count this as one question:

What were the names of your students? Where did you meet them? What did you teach them? How did you teach them? Where did you teach them? How long did you spend with each student?

--Tom Sawyer



Hmmm.... I suppose I'd ask: What is your real full name, where were you born, and how and where did you acquire your knowledge about card manipulation?!

Tom Sawyer
Posts: 319
Joined: January 7th, 2012, 6:44 pm

Re: ERDNASE

Postby Tom Sawyer » September 7th, 2012, 11:37 pm

Daniel, to me those seem like excellent questions.

If you asked him his name, and no other questions regarding his identity, and if he said "E.S. Andrews," that might not help much in establishing who he was! Hence, asking his place of birth is a good idea.

However, I would like to think that one could ask, "Who are you" (or "Who were you"--not sure what the tense should be), and that he would give enough information to establish his identity.

--Tom


Return to “General”