ERDNASE

Discuss general aspects of Genii.
Chris Aguilar
Posts: 1831
Joined: January 17th, 2008, 12:00 pm
Location: Sacramento
Contact:

Re: ERDNASE

Postby Chris Aguilar » August 24th, 2011, 1:26 am

Is there any chance that we can lay off the vitriol and get back to actually discussing Erdnase and the actual content of Marty's excellent article?

El Harvey Oswald
Posts: 314
Joined: June 21st, 2011, 11:37 pm

Re: ERDNASE

Postby El Harvey Oswald » August 24th, 2011, 1:39 am

I am aware of the LA Conference on Magic History more than you know, but I simply don't find that or the whole of Alexander's work, without more (I.e., Demarest's expansion of it) compelling. And as for how much something "caught on," that's a matter of opinion, not quite capable of being "patently wrong.". His article speaks for itself. And it is apparent that nine years of tendentious discussion about a five-page article doesn't deepen the quality of analysis. That said, I will concede to being influenced on the margin by people who are typically regarded as opinion leaders in this magazine and in the field generally, to the effect that Alexander wasn't a particularly rigorous thinker, to put it politely. No doubt you have a different view, perhaps influenced by friendship. If so, then the resort to invective and thread-posting seniority are understandable, probably admirable. But while you've been invested in this thread and whatever your personal crusade is, over those past nine years the surrounding world reverted to the standing assumption that Erdnase was Andrews, however much "everyone was talking about" these little gatherings that you so fondly recall. I might be wrong, but it appears very likely that Demarest has now actually shifted the paradigm, and, only now, the predominant assumption will shift, and Sanders will be regarded as the most likely Erdnase. Alexander obviously is essential in that transformation, and Demarest appears rational and large-minded enough to give him his full due, notwithstanding the tendency of Alexander's acolytes, like you, to reinforce the impression of him not being quite up to producing first-rate, dispositive scholarship.

El Harvey Oswald
Posts: 314
Joined: June 21st, 2011, 11:37 pm

Re: ERDNASE

Postby El Harvey Oswald » August 24th, 2011, 2:01 am

I can't dispute any of that, factually or logically. It's a reasonable take. You find some things likely that I find unlikely. Ultimately, though, I gather that we find the Sanders theory more persuasive than anything that's previously been advanced. As for how the credit is apportioned, between Demarest and Alexander, I really don't care; those things tend to work themselves. That the Alexander advocates tend to respond to any, even inconsequential, criticism with weird vitriol only reinforces the perceptions of Alexander. Unfortunately, as you point out Alexander himself qualified his work as preliminary, fractional, and speculative. I gather that the same self- awareness would allow him to distinguish between someone finding some ultimately inconsequential part of his presentation "silly" and that same person also finding his work provocative, important and factually right. It's difficult to begrudge him including those points that might seem silly as they are, if nothing else, "fun facts" that deepen the intrigue around a genuine mystery. And, as you also note, there's they quite real possibility that they aren't at all silly. I just don't think so.

In any event, thanks for an interested and well-stated response. You've lessened my own certainty, which can be a very satisfying sensation when you just let it happen.

User avatar
John M. Dale
Posts: 275
Joined: January 18th, 2008, 12:00 pm
Location: San Jose, CA

Re: ERDNASE

Postby John M. Dale » August 24th, 2011, 2:09 am

How cool! You did manage to find the caps key. And, to think, I thought you were being facetious. Silly me.

JMD

El Harvey Oswald
Posts: 314
Joined: June 21st, 2011, 11:37 pm

Re: ERDNASE

Postby El Harvey Oswald » August 24th, 2011, 2:14 am

*courtesy laugh*

Tony Tuccillo
Posts: 175
Joined: March 19th, 2008, 10:35 pm
Location: Fleming Island, Florida

Re: ERDNASE

Postby Tony Tuccillo » August 24th, 2011, 8:31 am

Not to get the thread off of this contentious sidebar but this month's special honored guest at the Magic Cafe is SW Erdnase. Questions & comments open tomorrow and he's posted a short intro (http://www.themagiccafe.com/forums/view ... orum=300&0).

Any ideas who is filling in as SWE on the Cafe?
Tony Tuccillo
Sebastian, Florida

User avatar
Richard Kaufman
Posts: 25168
Joined: July 18th, 2001, 12:00 pm
Favorite Magician: Theodore DeLand
Location: Washington DC
Contact:

Re: ERDNASE

Postby Richard Kaufman » August 24th, 2011, 10:33 am

I agree with El Harvey regarding his assessment of how many folks viewed David Alexander's original lecture and article. While I admired David Alexander greatly and he was a close friend, his candidate seemed to be a far stretch, and his conclusions not quite ready for public analysis. Many comments after his lecture and after the article on Sanders appeared in Genii were those of people who were completely unconvinced.

David gave his lecture at the History Conference and published at that time because Hatch was doing likewise, giving a talk and publishing HIS article (in MAGIC). If not for Hatch, I don't think David would have gone public at that point with W.E. Sanders because he was clearly at an early stage in researching Sanders.

When we heard nothing from David over the ensuing decade about Sanders, it seemed even less likely that his candidate was Erdnase. I have no idea how much time he spent on researching Sanders over that time--he was busy with many other projects.

Marty had the great advantage of being a native of Montana and able to spend a lot of time on the ground where Sanders walked and lived and he took full advantage of that. Marty is also a superb journalist and writer, and as I noted in Genii, that when you read Marty's piece and then go back to David Alexander's piece, the latter seems less contrived.
Subscribe today to Genii Magazine

Bob Coyne
Posts: 564
Joined: January 26th, 2008, 12:00 pm
Favorite Magician: Charlies
Location: New York, NY

Re: ERDNASE

Postby Bob Coyne » August 24th, 2011, 1:41 pm

As Carl Morpurgo noted, David Alexander provided a vision. That vision and a lot of work allowed him to uncover some tantalizing initial evidence which Marty has added to tremendously. What David did is amazing and a sign of real brilliance (at least to those of us who find the Sanders case compelling). Whether or not David was a "rigorous thinker" is secondary. And premature rigorous thinking can bind you into boxes. It's often better to follow hunches and vision in the process of inquiry.

El Harvey Oswald
Posts: 314
Joined: June 21st, 2011, 11:37 pm

Re: ERDNASE

Postby El Harvey Oswald » August 24th, 2011, 1:51 pm

Well said. All aspects apart from that core vision are secondary. Or, alternatively, if the things I and some others find unpersuasive were integral to his process (or, moreover, if Sanders did in fact plant the more questionable clues), then he's in the creative realm, which I'll take over "rigor" any day.

Jonathan Townsend
Posts: 8172
Joined: January 17th, 2008, 12:00 pm
Location: Westchester, NY
Contact:

Re: ERDNASE

Postby Jonathan Townsend » August 24th, 2011, 3:02 pm

Any conjecture on whether this likely "erdnase" actually moved in card games?
Last edited by Jonathan Townsend on August 24th, 2011, 3:04 pm, edited 0 times in total.
Reason: Attempting to be "right" at others expense is low - doing so as a sycophant of a dead person is lowerer.

Mike Vance
Posts: 458
Joined: April 23rd, 2008, 10:47 pm
Location: Fort Worth, TX
Contact:

Re: ERDNASE

Postby Mike Vance » August 24th, 2011, 4:32 pm

Here is a tentative Erdnaseum schedule:

Friday, August 26th

7:00 PM - Richard Hatch discusses the publication and mystery surrounding The Expert at the Card Table

~7:30 PM - W.E. Sanders Presentation by Marty Demarest

8:30 PM - Q&A

~9:30 PM - W.E. Sanders' 150th Birthday Party with cake


Saturday, August 27th

10:30 AM - Tour of Journals, Grave site and other Erdnase hotspots around town

12:30 PM - Lunch Break

2:30 PM - Erdnase's Identity: Who was S.W. Erdnase and why should we care?

3:30 PM - Erdnase's Cheating: How good are the ruses and subterfuges S.W. Erdnase describes? Could he have been a working cheat, or was he just a hobbyist? R. Paul Wilson, star of "The Real Hustle" and the upcoming History Channel special "Scammed," leads this symposium.

4:30 PM - Erdnase's Shifts: Jason England, finished expert, demonstrates and discusses S.W. Erdnase's original (and controversial) shifts.

6:30 PM - Dinner - Eat one of W.E. Sanders' favorite foods (aside from butter), Montana Beef, free range and grass fed. BYOB and other things.

8:30 PM - Erdnase in Magic History: What was magic like before S.W. Erdnase? How has he changed it? From the sleights that Erdnase used as his foundation, to modern creations based on Erdnase's work (like Dan and Dave Buck's "Revolution E"), an open discussion of the role Erdnase has played in the development of magic.

Plus some very exciting surprises for lovers of The Expert at the Card Table.

Richard Hatch
Posts: 1938
Joined: January 17th, 2008, 12:00 pm
Location: Providence, Utah
Contact:

Re: ERDNASE

Postby Richard Hatch » August 24th, 2011, 4:49 pm

"I'm moving to Montana now..." - A. P. Paz

Bill Mullins
Posts: 5226
Joined: January 17th, 2008, 12:00 pm
Location: Huntsville, AL

Re: ERDNASE

Postby Bill Mullins » August 24th, 2011, 5:01 pm

Richard Hatch wrote:"I'm moving to Montana now..." - A. P. Paz


Like Erdnase, Paz was "only in it for the money".

Richard Hatch
Posts: 1938
Joined: January 17th, 2008, 12:00 pm
Location: Providence, Utah
Contact:

Re: ERDNASE

Postby Richard Hatch » August 24th, 2011, 5:37 pm

Bill Mullins wrote:
Richard Hatch wrote:"I'm moving to Montana now..." - A. P. Paz


Like Erdnase, Paz was "only in it for the money".


Hmmm... Erdnase gives his need for money as the "primary motive", not necessarily the "only motive" for writing the book...

El Harvey Oswald
Posts: 314
Joined: June 21st, 2011, 11:37 pm

Re: ERDNASE

Postby El Harvey Oswald » August 24th, 2011, 5:47 pm

what were his stated secondary motives?

Marty Demarest
Posts: 92
Joined: August 12th, 2011, 11:23 am
Location: Montana

Re: ERDNASE

Postby Marty Demarest » August 24th, 2011, 8:38 pm

I think Mike Vance forgot to mention the Diagonal Palm-Shifting Contest and the Twelve-Card Stock Run Up Race...

I was just sent this link:

http://s845.photobucket.com/albums/ab11 ... ?start=all

Carlo Morpurgo
Posts: 362
Joined: January 17th, 2008, 12:00 pm
Location: Columbia, MO

Re: ERDNASE

Postby Carlo Morpurgo » August 24th, 2011, 9:30 pm

Marty Demarest wrote:I was just sent this link:

http://s845.photobucket.com/albums/ab11 ... ?start=all


meh...to me it's just corroborating standard statistics for the English language. To give it meaning there should be a "control group", including writings of unrelated individuals from the same time period.

I am a little bit puzzled by the average sentence length though....there should be a peak around 12 words, not 1 or 2.

User avatar
Joe Pecore
Posts: 1915
Joined: January 17th, 2008, 12:00 pm
Favorite Magician: Paul Harris
Location: Northern Virginia

Re: ERDNASE

Postby Joe Pecore » August 24th, 2011, 10:21 pm

Carlo Morpurgo wrote:
meh...to me it's just corroborating standard statistics for the English language. To give it meaning there should be a "control group", including writings of unrelated individuals from the same time period.

I am a little bit puzzled by the average sentence length though....there should be a peak around 12 words, not 1 or 2.


Here is the post from when I originally ran that analysis just for fun and to see what kinds of reports it produced:
http://www.geniimagazine.com/forums/ubb ... Post216808

I did not have clean copies of the text.
Share your knowledge on the MagicPedia wiki.

Carlo Morpurgo
Posts: 362
Joined: January 17th, 2008, 12:00 pm
Location: Columbia, MO

Re: ERDNASE

Postby Carlo Morpurgo » August 24th, 2011, 10:34 pm

Yes...I agree with Bill...I was not aware of that part of the thread...obviously there is a problem with periods or the like, since the average sentence length is not right. But the rest (especially letter and word length frequencies) seems to be in line. Can you run another similar book? For fun of course....that is the whole point....no matter what comes up!

Bob Coyne
Posts: 564
Joined: January 26th, 2008, 12:00 pm
Favorite Magician: Charlies
Location: New York, NY

Re: ERDNASE

Postby Bob Coyne » August 25th, 2011, 5:32 am

Was all of Mine Timbering used as input? Or just Sanders' section?

User avatar
Joe Pecore
Posts: 1915
Joined: January 17th, 2008, 12:00 pm
Favorite Magician: Paul Harris
Location: Northern Virginia

Re: ERDNASE

Postby Joe Pecore » August 25th, 2011, 6:46 am

Bob Coyne wrote:Was all of Mine Timbering used as input? Or just Sanders' section?

The whole book. I could probably dig up the application again if someone could get me cleaned up text to run through it.
Share your knowledge on the MagicPedia wiki.

Carlo Morpurgo
Posts: 362
Joined: January 17th, 2008, 12:00 pm
Location: Columbia, MO

Re: ERDNASE

Postby Carlo Morpurgo » August 25th, 2011, 7:31 am

How common was it to title subsections in the form

Italics text.-

This probably means nothing, but I noticed 31 of them in Sanders' article and that Erdnase also uses them quite a bit (starting from page 1). A couple other folks in the same book use them, but not as much. I wonder if that was a particular style of technical journals of that time period.

Jonathan Townsend
Posts: 8172
Joined: January 17th, 2008, 12:00 pm
Location: Westchester, NY
Contact:

Re: ERDNASE

Postby Jonathan Townsend » August 25th, 2011, 8:29 am

Bob Coyne wrote:Was all of Mine Timbering used as input? Or just Sanders' section?


As suggested - running the chapters in the erdnase text against the chapters in the timbering book would help argue for its place as closer to one particular chapter than another or the chapters closer to each other in that book than to the erdnase text. Pretty much an ANOVA corrected for vocabulary.

The null hypothesis here being "the chapters in the mining text are approximately equally different from each other as they are from the erdnase text and that the chapters in the erdnase text are approximately equally different from each chapter in the mining text"

User avatar
Joe Pecore
Posts: 1915
Joined: January 17th, 2008, 12:00 pm
Favorite Magician: Paul Harris
Location: Northern Virginia

Re: ERDNASE

Postby Joe Pecore » August 25th, 2011, 10:30 am

Some more text from Sanders, "A Reference-Scheme for Mine-Workings": http://books.google.com/books?id=12RVAA ... rs&f=false
Share your knowledge on the MagicPedia wiki.

User avatar
Joe Pecore
Posts: 1915
Joined: January 17th, 2008, 12:00 pm
Favorite Magician: Paul Harris
Location: Northern Virginia

Re: ERDNASE

Postby Joe Pecore » August 25th, 2011, 10:56 am

And here is Sanders bio and picture from the Twenty-fifth anniversary reunion, Columbia University, School of Mines. Class of 1885 : http://books.google.com/books?id=pURGAA ... rs&f=false
Share your knowledge on the MagicPedia wiki.

User avatar
Joe Pecore
Posts: 1915
Joined: January 17th, 2008, 12:00 pm
Favorite Magician: Paul Harris
Location: Northern Virginia

Re: ERDNASE

Postby Joe Pecore » August 25th, 2011, 11:12 am

Another online biographical sketch and picture of Sanders from "Universities and their sons" (1900): http://books.google.com/books?id=6TQcAQ ... rs&f=false
Share your knowledge on the MagicPedia wiki.

Bill Evans
Posts: 91
Joined: March 11th, 2008, 4:56 pm

Re: ERDNASE

Postby Bill Evans » August 25th, 2011, 11:39 am

Joe Pecore wrote:And here is Sanders bio and picture from the Twenty-fifth anniversary reunion, Columbia University, School of Mines. Class of 1885 : http://books.google.com/books?id=pURGAA ... rs&f=false


Has anyone noticed how similar the picture on the right is to the drawing of Erdnase on the joker in the Conjuring Arts Research Center Erdnase decks? What a weird coincidence.

User avatar
Richard Kaufman
Posts: 25168
Joined: July 18th, 2001, 12:00 pm
Favorite Magician: Theodore DeLand
Location: Washington DC
Contact:

Re: ERDNASE

Postby Richard Kaufman » August 25th, 2011, 11:43 am

Good find, Joe--haven't seen that photo of Sanders before!
Subscribe today to Genii Magazine

SwanJr
Posts: 26
Joined: January 5th, 2010, 11:59 pm

Re: ERDNASE

Postby SwanJr » August 25th, 2011, 12:02 pm

Marty, could you give us more details on the manuscript Sanders had with him in Minnesota? Did he just tell the reporter about it? Or did the reporter see it himself?

User avatar
Joe Pecore
Posts: 1915
Joined: January 17th, 2008, 12:00 pm
Favorite Magician: Paul Harris
Location: Northern Virginia

Re: ERDNASE

Postby Joe Pecore » August 25th, 2011, 12:57 pm

Interesting tidbit from THE KANSAS CITY JOURNAL, MONDAY, MARCH 15, 1897 (http://chroniclingamerica.loc.gov/lccn/sn86063615/1897-03-15/ed-1/seq-3/;words=Sanders) :
"Bessie Bon, an unfortunate woman, who shot herself in the Auburn rooming house at 1311 Grand avenue April 1 1896, because W. E. Sanders had spurned her, borrowed his revolver for the purpose of ending her career. She lived 21 hours. The revolver, which was a 38-callber, had a pearl handle with a dove carved on It. It was not returned to Sanders."


(Sanders was the manager of the Norton-Bothwell Mines in Jopin, MO at that time)
Share your knowledge on the MagicPedia wiki.

Richard Hatch
Posts: 1938
Joined: January 17th, 2008, 12:00 pm
Location: Providence, Utah
Contact:

Re: ERDNASE

Postby Richard Hatch » August 25th, 2011, 2:40 pm

Joe Pecore wrote:Interesting tidbit from THE KANSAS CITY JOURNAL, MONDAY, MARCH 15, 1897 (http://chroniclingamerica.loc.gov/lccn/sn86063615/1897-03-15/ed-1/seq-3/;words=Sanders) :
"Bessie Bon, an unfortunate woman, who shot herself in the Auburn rooming house at 1311 Grand avenue April 1 1896, because W. E. Sanders had spurned her, borrowed his revolver for the purpose of ending her career. She lived 21 hours. The revolver, which was a 38-callber, had a pearl handle with a dove carved on It. It was not returned to Sanders."


(Sanders was the manager of the Norton-Bothwell Mines in Jopin, MO at that time)


Wow, this guy is getting more interesting by the minute! This makes him sound like Milton Franklin Andrews' twin!

User avatar
Joe Pecore
Posts: 1915
Joined: January 17th, 2008, 12:00 pm
Favorite Magician: Paul Harris
Location: Northern Virginia

Re: ERDNASE

Postby Joe Pecore » August 25th, 2011, 3:07 pm

Something else written by Sanders in 1909 to compare with Expert: M0NTANA Organization, Name and Naming
Share your knowledge on the MagicPedia wiki.

User avatar
Richard Kaufman
Posts: 25168
Joined: July 18th, 2001, 12:00 pm
Favorite Magician: Theodore DeLand
Location: Washington DC
Contact:

Re: ERDNASE

Postby Richard Kaufman » August 25th, 2011, 3:08 pm

No, it just means he got a lady very upset. He didn't shoot anyone, and I'm sure everyone carried a gun in those days in that part of the country.
Subscribe today to Genii Magazine

Chris Aguilar
Posts: 1831
Joined: January 17th, 2008, 12:00 pm
Location: Sacramento
Contact:

Re: ERDNASE

Postby Chris Aguilar » August 25th, 2011, 3:24 pm

I think it's mentioned in the article that Wilbur Sanders enjoyed writing poetry.

Richard Hatch
Posts: 1938
Joined: January 17th, 2008, 12:00 pm
Location: Providence, Utah
Contact:

Re: ERDNASE

Postby Richard Hatch » August 25th, 2011, 3:59 pm

Thomas Sawyer's reactions to Marty's article have now been posted in his Erdnase blog:
http://swerdnase2011.wordpress.com/

Richard Hatch
Posts: 1938
Joined: January 17th, 2008, 12:00 pm
Location: Providence, Utah
Contact:

Re: ERDNASE

Postby Richard Hatch » August 26th, 2011, 9:24 am

Tom Sawyer has just posted a very interesting advertisement from 1896 for M. D. Smith's services as an illustrator:
http://swerdnase2011.wordpress.com/

Richard W
Posts: 9
Joined: November 5th, 2008, 10:21 am

Re: ERDNASE

Postby Richard W » August 26th, 2011, 10:04 am

Hi
I just wanted to add that when we did our textual analysis of Erdnase (see my Genii article on Erdnase with David Homes), we did look at Saunders' book on mining. I have attached the graph (showing Erdnase, Saunders and Harto) - the styles are VERY different, but there again the genre of the mining book is different to Erdnase, so that might account for it. If anyone can find any other writings by Saunders, email them to me and I would be happy to get them analysed.
Cheers
Richard
Image

Bill Mullins
Posts: 5226
Joined: January 17th, 2008, 12:00 pm
Location: Huntsville, AL

Re: ERDNASE

Postby Bill Mullins » August 26th, 2011, 11:14 am

Richard Hatch wrote:Tom Sawyer has just posted a very interesting advertisement from 1896 for M. D. Smith's services as an illustrator:
http://swerdnase2011.wordpress.com/


Nice catch!

Bill Mullins
Posts: 5226
Joined: January 17th, 2008, 12:00 pm
Location: Huntsville, AL

Re: ERDNASE

Postby Bill Mullins » August 26th, 2011, 11:18 am

W. E. Sanders Bibliography

Practical mining. Sanders, Wilbur E. and George Barstow Lee. 1884. Columbia University thesis/essay.

The Drainage of Mines. 1885, Columbia Univ thesis.

Letter to J. V. Brower, dated 4/23/1896. Reproduced in Brower, J. V., The Missouri River and Its Utmost Source. St. Paul: Pioneer Press, 1897 pp 178-179.

"Mine Timbering" by W. E. Sanders, The Mineral Industry Its Statistics, Technology and Trade, Vol VIII., NY, London: The Scientific Publishing Co., 1900. p. 715 743. (Reprinted in Mine Timbering 1907.)

"Mine Timbering and the Support of Earthworks." in The Mineral Industry, Its Statistics, Technology and Trade for 1901, Vol X. Edited by Joseph Struthers. NY: Engineering and Mining Journal, 1901.

"The Framing of Rectangular Shaft Sets." Eng & Min JourMarch 10, 1904, Vol 77. pp 396-398. Illustrates and describes the methods of framing almost universally accepted as affording the greatest possible strength. 2000 w. Reprinted in Mine Timbering 1907 with new illustrations.


"A Reference Scheme for Mine-Workings." Bul Am Inst of Min EngrsMay, 1906. Explains the need and gives a reference scheme for numbering and naming points and parts of mine-workings. Plans. 3000 w. This paper was also presented at the 2/1906 conference of the American Institute of Mining Engineers held in Bethlehem PA (Transactions of the American Institute of Mining Engineers, vol 37 1907 p 128 139) and was summarized in Mining Magazine vol 13 no. 7 1906, p. 581 583.

"Reference Scheme for Mines" Ores and Metals vol 15 no 12 June 15 1906

Mine Timbering. By Wilbur E. Sanders. Bernard McDonald and Norman W. Parlee. New York: Hill Publishing Co., 1907. 180 pages; illustrated. Bound in cloth. $2.00

"Scheme for Filing Mining and Industrial Notes." Paper "was read by title for future publication" at meeting of American Institute of Mining Engineers, New Haven CT, Feb 25 1909. Not clear if the paper was ever published anywhere, though.

"The Word Montana, its significance, derivation and historical use." Mont. His. S. 7: 15-60, 1910.

"On Custer Hill" (poem) Mont. His. S. 7: xxx, 1910.

Class of 1885, School of Mines, twenty-fifth anniversary reunion. Edited by R. V. Norris, W. E Sanders and Joseph Struthers.

"Mining Reports" [letter] Mining And Scientific Press, 8/9/1913 p 233

"Improved Type of Ore Bin," Eng & Min J 97:1003-4 May 16, 1914. Reprinted in Details of Practical Mining. NY: McGraw-Hill, 1916, p. 256.

"Our Dear Old School of Mines" (song lyrics) Columbia Alumni News V5n36 7/10/1914 p. 757.

I need to add the 25th Class Reunion book.

With the exception of the theses and the article in Ores and Metals, I think all of these can be found on Google Books and/or Hathi Trust.

Bill Mullins
Posts: 5226
Joined: January 17th, 2008, 12:00 pm
Location: Huntsville, AL

Re: ERDNASE

Postby Bill Mullins » August 26th, 2011, 11:21 am

I'm trying to get to Montana, but Delta is screwing with me.


Return to “General”