ERDNASE

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Richard Kaufman
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Re: ERDNASE

Postby Richard Kaufman » August 11th, 2011, 1:02 pm

Bob, there are so many small (and new) details which Marty dug up that I find them, in total, to present a very compelling case. Marty's realization that the misreading of handwriting could produce "Charlies Pass" instead of "Charlier" is a great bit of clear thinking.

It is the accumlation of these types of details that will make the case.
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Re: ERDNASE

Postby Roger M. » August 11th, 2011, 1:02 pm

Hi Mike,
Would you rather I not post?
I'm not sure what the "length" of my posts has to do with anything?

If you could please highlight where I've been remiss in tolerating somebodies post, that would help me understand what you're referencing.

My "opinion" is simply my opinion. If it's different than yours, that means absolutely nothing beyond the fact that we have different opinions.

If you've difficulty with my post lengths, I'm sorry.........I'm not willing to change them, but don't mean to offend you by putting in more content than you feel is required.

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Re: ERDNASE

Postby Bob Coyne » August 11th, 2011, 1:04 pm

Roger M. wrote: If one finds solace in declaring Sanders as Erdnase based on the circumstantial evidence presented to date, that's great and I fully support (and enjoy reading) those divergent personal opinions.


Solace?? Definition: comfort in sorrow, misfortune, or trouble; alleviation of distress or discomfort.

I think people who find the case for Sanders compelling are just impressed by the evidence (and excited to learn more about who wrote the book). There's nothing negative about that. I would have been disappointed if the article proved to be a dud -- only in that case would I have needed some solace! :-)

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Re: ERDNASE

Postby Richard Kaufman » August 11th, 2011, 1:05 pm

I'm sure there are people who are much more critical of the article who haven't posted their opinions here.

Actually, I know that for a fact--one of my friends, and someone who I deeply respect as both a magician and scholar, summed up his response to Marty's article as a lot of "nonsense." Skepticism is a healthy thing for journalists. It prods them to dig deeper.

I have a feeling that the next issue of Magicol that David Ben refers to is going to carry something about Richard Hatch's candidate, though I don't know that for a fact. Just a guess.
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Re: ERDNASE

Postby Richard Kaufman » August 11th, 2011, 1:06 pm

I respect Roger M.'s posts--it's exactly the kind of discourse we want here on the Forum. So, let's please not start picking at each other.
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Re: ERDNASE

Postby Mike Vance » August 11th, 2011, 1:08 pm

Bob,

I liked the Dalrymple connection, the idea that the "family connection" may not have anything to do with genealogy.

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Re: ERDNASE

Postby Richard Kaufman » August 11th, 2011, 1:12 pm

The only thing M.D. Smith remembered about the name of the man he met was that it was something with a "W."

Wilber Sanders' first name obviously begins with a "W."

No candidate named E.S. Andrews has a name that would be remembered as having been something with a "W."

Just one more detail that makes Sanders fit.
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Re: ERDNASE

Postby Chris Aguilar » August 11th, 2011, 1:13 pm

Roger M. wrote:Hi Chris,
You're looking for something that isn't there.

Nobody is asking (or expecting) anything of me, nor am I asking for anything from anybody.
They were simple sentences in a forum post, no "intent" behind either of them.

You were obviously referring to other people (or why bother posting that at all?) Especially with the "Kool-Aid" comment.

Since I'm really not seeing that here, my hope was that you could clarify exactly who you were referring to for the sake of clarity.

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Re: ERDNASE

Postby Mike Vance » August 11th, 2011, 1:14 pm

Bob Coyne wrote:I am 95% convinced that Sanders is Erdnase


Bob, I'd say I'm a little north of 95%. Marty's work sets a new bar for the other candidates to attempt to reach, in my opinion.

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Re: ERDNASE

Postby Mike Vance » August 11th, 2011, 1:17 pm

Roger M. wrote:Hi Mike,
Would you rather I not post?
I'm not sure what the "length" of my posts has to do with anything?

If you could please highlight where I've been remiss in tolerating somebodies post, that would help me understand what you're referencing.

My "opinion" is simply my opinion. If it's different than yours, that means absolutely nothing beyond the fact that we have different opinions.

If you've difficulty with my post lengths, I'm sorry.........I'm not willing to change them, but don't mean to offend you by putting in more content than you feel is required.


Way to take things out of context. "Length" was obviously the point I was trying to make. Post away. No one is stopping you.

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Re: ERDNASE

Postby Chris Aguilar » August 11th, 2011, 1:20 pm

Richard Kaufman wrote:The only thing M.D. Smith remembered about the name of the man he met was that it was something with a "W."

Wilber Sanders' first name obviously begins with a "W."

No candidate named E.S. Andrews has a name that would be remembered as having been something with a "W."

I was impressed with that because it's a piece of fairly hard evidence from a first hand source (Smith). As you say, if another candidate can't reconcile that, it would (to me at least) go strongly against them.

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Re: ERDNASE

Postby aofl » August 11th, 2011, 1:20 pm

I created a stub page for W. E. on Wikipedia:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wilbur_Edgerton_Sanders

Anyone so inclined can add to it.

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Re: ERDNASE

Postby Jonathan Townsend » August 11th, 2011, 1:21 pm

I'm enjoying the consideration of a writer as the author, with the magician/gambler matters set in background. Gets me wondering if he'd read Neve's Merrie Companion book and saw his book as a contrast to the apparatus heavy books of the time (Roteberg/Hoffmann).

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Re: ERDNASE

Postby Roger M. » August 11th, 2011, 1:21 pm

Once again Chris, you seem to want some sort of hostile discourse on the subject.

Not interested.

My position hasn't changed one iota from ten years ago, and I'm certainly not trying to change yours (or anybody else's).

I'm not selling any theories, and I'm not looking for an argument.

Hope I'm clear on that?

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Re: ERDNASE

Postby Roger M. » August 11th, 2011, 1:23 pm

Mike Vance wrote:
Way to take things out of context. "Length" was obviously the point I was trying to make. Post away. No one is stopping you.

The length of my posts Mike, is frankly none of your concern.

I'm a bit surprised that you'd even comment on it.......it's called "substance", and the complete opposite of snide little retorts.

You're always free to pass my posts by, although I feel there may be some valid (and even interesting) points contained within.........you may disagree, which I have no problem with.

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Re: ERDNASE

Postby Jonathan Townsend » August 11th, 2011, 1:31 pm

Wow, the personal commentary/distractions are getting close to Vernon's legendary rebukes to those he felt were not offering a poetic/artistic recital in what they were showing.

The erdnase text will be what it is. How you participate in the dialog and the record you leave is yours.
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Re: ERDNASE

Postby Chris Aguilar » August 11th, 2011, 1:38 pm

Roger M. wrote:Once again Chris, you seem to want some sort of hostile discourse on the subject.

Hostile? Certainly not.

"Roger M." wrote:I like the fact that there are those who have been swayed, and those that haven't yet "drunk the kool-aid".

I just asked for clarification (i.e. "Who are these Kool-aid drinkers you mention") of the above.

I'm genuinely curious because I'm not seeing that here at all. To me "kool-aid drinker" would imply someone claiming 100% certainty. Even the author, Marty doesn't do that.

If someone espouses even a small amount of uncertainty, I would question referring to them in that manner.

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Re: ERDNASE

Postby Bob Coyne » August 11th, 2011, 1:52 pm

Mike Vance wrote:Bob,

I liked the Dalrymple connection, the idea that the "family connection" may not have anything to do with genealogy.


Yes, another ingenious one that builds the case by reframing the question slightly. It's not as convincing as if it had been a family connection as Smith remembered, but the fact that there's a direct connection of a different sort does seem to me to add weight to the case. The exact connection seems like an easy thing for Smith to misremember 30 years later. It is still an open question whether Sanders was related to Dalrymple, so this other/new connection could be a coincidence.

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Re: ERDNASE

Postby Roger M. » August 11th, 2011, 2:06 pm

I'm not seeing any sort of Dalrymple "family connection" as per Smith's memory of conversation he had with Erdnase in Chicago.

The cartoon is one in which the proposed Sanders Sr. character is actually one of about 20 detailed caricatures represented in the scene, along with another 20 or so "undetailed" background folks.

Even if you do accept that the proposed Sanders Sr. is represented in the cartoon (and he's not identified by Dalrymple as such), having a popular political cartoonist draw a cartoon featuring a popular Montana politician doesn't seem to me to be any sort of family connection?

If anything, it seems a political cartoonist drawing a politician.......business as usual for political cartoonists, and something that appears to contribute little to establishing a connection between what M.D. Smith recalled ("a family connection"), and the cartoon itself.

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Re: ERDNASE

Postby Chris Aguilar » August 11th, 2011, 2:15 pm

I would not call the "Montana" illustration undetailed. While it's a bit smaller in frame, it seems to hold as much detail as the named senator caricatures.

http://www.senate.gov/artandhistory/art ... _00579.htm

The drawing purported to be W.F. Sanders doesn't seem particularly generic to me. Perhaps looking at other (more clearly) generic type characters in Dalryples other works might shed some light on his style.

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Re: ERDNASE

Postby Roger M. » August 11th, 2011, 2:18 pm

Chris, with "undetailed", I was referring to the large contingent of apparent "horsemen" that are faded into the background, and not colored in......... not the hatted "Montana" representative.

He's obviously included in the group of detailed chaps in the foreground.

Regardless, it's got nothing to do with apparently demonstrating any sort of family connection.

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Re: ERDNASE

Postby Richard Kaufman » August 11th, 2011, 2:27 pm

No, at this point there has not been a family relation established to Darlrymple. However, having had your father caricatured by one of the most famous illustrators of the day is certainly the type of thing Sanders might mention to another illustrator--in this case the man who is going to illustrate your book, M.D. Smith.

Now I want you fellows to STOP sniping at one another. NOW, please.
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Re: ERDNASE

Postby Mike Vance » August 11th, 2011, 2:35 pm

Richard Kaufman wrote:Now I want you fellows to STOP sniping at one another. NOW, please.


My apologies, Richard.

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Re: ERDNASE

Postby Roger M. » August 11th, 2011, 2:42 pm

If you'd prefer Richard, I be willing to stop posting.

I should state right up front that I'm not inclined to change the direction my posts are taking, so if folks don't agree with me, perhaps there's nothing constructive to be gained by offering a counterpoint to specific elements of Marty's article.

Insults disguised as questions can be difficult to respond to, although I believe I was polite in my efforts to clarify statements, or answer questions that were, frankly, hardly constructive and not really honest in their intent.

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Re: ERDNASE

Postby Chris Aguilar » August 11th, 2011, 2:47 pm

Richard Kaufman wrote: However, having had your father caricatured by one of the most famous illustrators of the day is certainly the type of thing Sanders might mention to another illustrator--in this case the man who is going to illustrate your book, M.D. Smith.

I find that line of reasoning to be, well, reasonable. A "family connection" can mean all sorts of things that have nothing to do with genealogy.

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Re: ERDNASE

Postby Mike Vance » August 11th, 2011, 2:57 pm

Bob Coyne wrote:
Mike Vance wrote:Bob,

I liked the Dalrymple connection, the idea that the "family connection" may not have anything to do with genealogy.


Yes, another ingenious one that builds the case by reframing the question slightly. It's not as convincing as if it had been a family connection as Smith remembered, but the fact that there's a direct connection of a different sort does seem to me to add weight to the case. The exact connection seems like an easy thing for Smith to misremember 30 years later. It is still an open question whether Sanders was related to Dalrymple, so this other/new connection could be a coincidence.


I'm not sure he had misremeber anything exactly. Everyone assumes that "family connection" means that you are a relative in some way, but a connection to a family doesn't have to be by blood. It could just be an association to the family. It was some good out-of-the-box thinking by Marty.

I agree that a genealogical connection is still the most likely interpretation. It needs to be checked out, especially given Alexander's claim that there may be a direct connection.

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Re: ERDNASE

Postby Chris Aguilar » August 11th, 2011, 2:59 pm

Roger M. wrote:Insults disguised as questions can be difficult to respond to, although I believe I was polite in my efforts to clarify statements, or answer questions that were, frankly, hardly constructive and not really honest in their intent.

And impugning the honesty of others as you're doing here is constructive?

If you think my asking you a question about one of your posts (i.e. "kool-aid drinkers", "those claiming victory", etc. ) was an insult, then you have my apologies. That was certainly not my intent.

Per Richards request, I will refrain asking you about this again.

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Re: ERDNASE

Postby Mike Vance » August 11th, 2011, 3:12 pm

Chris,

As reasonable discussion is not always possible, we should probably stop letting ourselves get baited. Let's keep things positive and ignore the noise.

BTW, that was a nice catch on the Sanders picture the other day. Bravo.

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Re: ERDNASE

Postby Mike Vance » August 11th, 2011, 3:17 pm

Richard Kaufman wrote:I have a feeling that the next issue of Magicol that David Ben refers to is going to carry something about Richard Hatch's candidate, though I don't know that for a fact. Just a guess.


How about it, Richard? Is something forthcoming?

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Re: ERDNASE

Postby Chris Aguilar » August 11th, 2011, 3:18 pm

Mike Vance wrote:BTW, that was a nice catch on the Sanders picture the other day. Bravo.

That was all Bob Coyne. He told us in this thread where to find it and I just did that and created a quick overlay.

You know, even after watching the video clip, I'm still not clear what you were looking for when you disassembled the Sanders desk. Just the "W" initial or hoping to find something else?

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Re: ERDNASE

Postby Ian Kendall » August 11th, 2011, 3:27 pm

I've got family connections to Garibaldi and A A Milne, but I'm not related to them.

I've not read the article yet, but it seems to be interesting. Think I'll dig out the older version for a bit of preparatory homework.

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Re: ERDNASE

Postby Mike Vance » August 11th, 2011, 3:32 pm

Chris,

I was on my way to visit Marty, so I had to drive through Helena. He was kind enough to let me help with the research. One assignment was to take apart the desk and to examine every inch to see if anything was there. I was hoping to find: "It was me. I did it. I was Erdnase." written somewhere, but I didn't find that. I did find an old pen nib, a receipt for nylons (not for Sanders, although that would have been an interesting revelation), and a letter a female relative wrote behind one of the drawers. There was also the mark in the side that looks somewhat like a "W."

It was actually kind of funny at one point. I was alone in the house taking apart the desk. I forgot to bring the flashlight Marty suggested I bring, so I took the shade off of a lamp. In walks a guest to see me in the middle of the floor on my back holding a lamp up under the desk. I said, "Hi." He said, "Hi," and then he walked into his room unperturbed by my presence or the desk in pieces.

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Re: ERDNASE

Postby Mike Vance » August 11th, 2011, 3:34 pm

Chris Aguilar wrote:
Mike Vance wrote:BTW, that was a nice catch on the Sanders picture the other day. Bravo.

That was all Bob Coyne. He told us in this thread where to find it and I just did that and created a quick overlay.


Then that was a nice catch, Bob. Bravo.

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Re: ERDNASE

Postby Mike Vance » August 11th, 2011, 3:36 pm

Ian Kendall wrote:I've got family connections to Garibaldi and A A Milne, but I'm not related to them.

I've not read the article yet, but it seems to be interesting. Think I'll dig out the older version for a bit of preparatory homework.


Ian, the Alexander article has been reprinted in this issue of Genii if you can't find it.

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Re: ERDNASE

Postby Carlo Morpurgo » August 11th, 2011, 3:47 pm

Maybe it has been written before, but who owns the Helena house now? Are they related somehow to the Sanders' family? I saw a couple of names on the B&B website. Did they just let you go in and take apart furniture? Are they acknowledged anywhere?

I am also curious about the "secret compartment" inside the wall, mentioned in the video...was that something that was not allowed to be explored?

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Re: ERDNASE

Postby Ian Kendall » August 11th, 2011, 3:52 pm

Thanks Mike; earlier in the year I sorted all my magazines into date order, so finding back issues is a lot easier. I'll probably not see the current issue for a few months, so it will have to do :)

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Re: ERDNASE

Postby Mike Vance » August 11th, 2011, 4:27 pm

Carlo Morpurgo wrote:Maybe it has been written before, but who owns the Helena house now? Are they related somehow to the Sanders' family? I saw a couple of names on the B&B website. Did they just let you go in and take apart furniture? Are they acknowledged anywhere?

I am also curious about the "secret compartment" inside the wall, mentioned in the video...was that something that was not allowed to be explored?


Carlo, the B&B is owned by Rock Ringling (of the circus folk) and Bobbi Uecker. I don't believe they are related to the Sanders family. At the time, they knew Marty quite well, and he asked that they let me in to thoroughly examine the desk.

The secret compartment was a joke by Marty. Technically, that space is one of the few unexamined spaces, but I doubt anything was put back there when it was built into the wall. You'd have to tear the whole thing out of the wall to find out. If there were extra copies of the Expert anywhere, they would have been in Wilbur's office, which burned down.

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Re: ERDNASE

Postby Carlo Morpurgo » August 11th, 2011, 4:43 pm

Mike Vance wrote:If there were extra copies of the Expert anywhere, they would have been in Wilbur's office, which burned down.


I suspect that the house will be subject to much further scrutiny....loose floor tiles, hidden knobs, pulls...

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Re: ERDNASE

Postby Richard Kaufman » August 11th, 2011, 4:47 pm

There was a ton of Houdini's stuff that sat in the basement of his brownstone in Manhattan, untouched, from the time of his death in 1926 until 1961 (or so).
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Re: ERDNASE

Postby Ryan Matney » August 11th, 2011, 5:02 pm

Is that where Jay Marshall helped Bess move from and was given Houdini's tooth?

Was never sure if this was a joke or not.
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