ERDNASE

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Richard Kaufman
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Re: ERDNASE

Postby Richard Kaufman » August 9th, 2011, 7:20 pm

W
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Re: ERDNASE

Postby Richard Kaufman » August 9th, 2011, 7:20 pm

E
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Re: ERDNASE

Postby Richard Kaufman » August 9th, 2011, 7:20 pm

S
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Re: ERDNASE

Postby Chris Aguilar » August 9th, 2011, 7:28 pm

Geno Munari wrote:Regarding: "..do the shift", and the two other initial hints from Richard:

That was directly from David Alexander's article in 2000 or thereabouts.


Right.

"David Alexander" wrote:A "shift" is a secret action with cards, moving the top
block of cards to the bottom. If we follow his instructions in
the "S.W.E. Shift" and move or shift the "S" in "S.W.E." to
the bottom (instead of simply reading it backward), we get
the initials "W.E.S." which are, exactly, the initials of one of
the remaining two names contained in the anagram.
So, in his own words, S.W Erdnase tells us his real
name through the use of Artifice Ruse and Subterfuge.
The true name of The Expert at the Card Table is:

W.E. Sanders

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Re: ERDNASE

Postby Rick Ruhl » August 9th, 2011, 7:39 pm

Chris Aguilar wrote:
Geno Munari wrote:Regarding: "..do the shift", and the two other initial hints from Richard:

That was directly from David Alexander's article in 2000 or thereabouts.


Right.

"David Alexander" wrote:A "shift" is a secret action with cards, moving the top
block of cards to the bottom. If we follow his instructions in
the "S.W.E. Shift" and move or shift the "S" in "S.W.E." to
the bottom (instead of simply reading it backward), we get
the initials "W.E.S." which are, exactly, the initials of one of
the remaining two names contained in the anagram.
So, in his own words, S.W Erdnase tells us his real
name through the use of Artifice Ruse and Subterfuge.
The true name of The Expert at the Card Table is:

W.E. Sanders



Which is what Richard just said... WES!!!!!!!!!

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Re: ERDNASE

Postby Richard Kaufman » August 9th, 2011, 7:44 pm

I really hated "Mr. Ed."
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Re: ERDNASE

Postby Rick Ruhl » August 9th, 2011, 7:50 pm

But will we hate Wilbur?

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Re: ERDNASE

Postby Bob Coyne » August 9th, 2011, 8:37 pm

The lead-up to the article (Mr Ed clue, Erdnaseum videos, Genii cover preview, etc) and ensuing discussion here was great fun. It definitely helped build the excitement and raise the level of anticipation. I, for one, can't wait for tomorrow to finally read it! Congratulations ahead of time to everyone involved!

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Re: ERDNASE

Postby Rick Ruhl » August 9th, 2011, 8:40 pm

Richard, after the reveal, I feel this thread should be locked. It started in 2003 with a massive amount of information passed. it had now come full circle and we need to start a new thread.

This has been an amazing journey. Richard and I are near the same age, so this has been a lifetime mystery.

The journey has ended and a new chapter begins.

Part II, W E Sanders IS S W Erdnase.

Rick

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Re: ERDNASE

Postby Leonard Hevia » August 9th, 2011, 8:42 pm

I have a black and white snapshot of Vernon, Jay Ose, and Fawcett Ross posing next to Mr. Ed, the palomino horse. Vernon is patting it on the neck, Ose is looking down at the horse's face, and Ross is staring at the camera. If only Vernon knew how close he was to the answer he had been seeking for many years.

In his January 2000 Genii article, David wrote "Many questions remain unanswered, many areas need to be explored." He would have been the first person to acknowledge the work of his successors.

I want to thank Richard Hatch and Todd Karr for publishing their research. Reading their results was...fun.

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Re: ERDNASE

Postby JohnCox » August 9th, 2011, 9:30 pm

Joe Pecore wrote:
JohnCox wrote:I can't believe I'm so interested in something that has nothing to do with Houdini.

Well, The Erdnase Change, a color change from Expert at the Card Table, is the same handling credited to Harry Houdini, in Selbit's The Magician's Handbook (New Colour Changes, Fourth Method) (1901) and later in Elliott's Last Legacy (1923) under "Two Effective Moves by Houdini".

Oh, that's cool. Didn't know that. Thank you, Joe.

I'm convinced. :)
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Re: ERDNASE

Postby Richard Hatch » August 9th, 2011, 9:45 pm

I've gotta say that I am surprised by the number of people who seem willing to accept the conclusions of an article they haven't yet read. I, for one, am reserving judgement until I have a chance to read the article. Greatly looking forward to it, regardless, and to the discussion in engenders.

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Re: ERDNASE

Postby Richard Kaufman » August 9th, 2011, 9:53 pm

Just finished recording my "More Genii Speaks" video, and now have to import it into iMove to top and tail it. Then will now upload it, plus all the other audio and video to our printer.
Hopefully things will fall into place nicely and we'll be live tomorrow.

Just a note: while the issue may appear to be available in our iPad app tomorrow, it's possible that the audio and video might not be converted and placed by then. So, while you can download and read the issue, if you try and play a video and find that nothing happens or it freezes up, that's why. If you delete that version of the September issue and download it again the next day, the video and audio should play without problem. Or it might work the first time tomorrow. Who knows?

I don't know. I only work here.

But I wanted you to be able to read it as soon as possible instead of waiting another day for the audio and video.
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Re: ERDNASE

Postby Richard Kaufman » August 9th, 2011, 9:55 pm

Richard Hatch is absolutely correct: everyone has to make up their own mind after reading the piece as to whether the evidence is sufficiently convincing. It is to me, but your mileage might vary. I'm sure there will be dissenting views, and so the thread will remain open.
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Re: ERDNASE

Postby Chris Aguilar » August 9th, 2011, 10:25 pm

Richard Hatch wrote:I've gotta say that I am surprised by the number of people who seem willing to accept the conclusions of an article they haven't yet read.

I'm not really seeing that.

For instance, if I quote David Alexander supporting his candidate, that doesn't necessarily mean that I support his candidate without more (or convincing) evidence.

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Re: ERDNASE

Postby Bob Coyne » August 9th, 2011, 10:45 pm

Chris Aguilar wrote:
Richard Hatch wrote:I've gotta say that I am surprised by the number of people who seem willing to accept the conclusions of an article they haven't yet read.

I'm not really seeing that.

For instance, if I quote David Alexander supporting his candidate, that doesn't necessarily mean that I support his candidate without more evidence.


Right -- I think much of the agreement being expressed here is on what the various pre-release clues point to (WE Sanders)...i.e. who the article is about. That's a very different matter than agreeing with the article itself, which can't be done before actually reading it. I do hope and expect, however, that the article makes a convincing case. We'll soon find out!

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Re: ERDNASE

Postby Richard Kaufman » August 9th, 2011, 11:06 pm

You want a candidate who did card magic.
You want a candidate who played cards a lot.
You want a candidate who matches M.D. Smith's description.
You want a candidate who has a connection to Dalrymple.
You want a candidate with a good reason to remain anonymous.
You want a candidate who was not only a writer, but a writer who would could switch styles readily.
You want a candidate who knew Del Adelphia.
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Re: ERDNASE

Postby David Byron » August 9th, 2011, 11:33 pm

Edwin Corrie wrote:Some of the other evidence is interesting, but I still find the "earth nose" idea a bit tenuous. Surely it would be almost too much of a coincidence if someone was able to rearrange the letters of his name to come up with an anagram that was an obscure reference to his profession in another language which he (presumably) didn't speak.

The "earth nose" factor is, imo, one of the strongest, not weakest, corroborating factors. Anagrammatists often calculate as many combinations as possible in search of one that has some topical relevance. This is done especially with personal names. Likewise, it's hardly a stretch that a student at Exeter would have some exposure to elementary German.

(BTW, the Sanders faction should start pronouncing "Erdnase" correctly. Three syllables, long 'a', schwa. ;) )

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Re: ERDNASE

Postby Bob Coyne » August 9th, 2011, 11:57 pm

David Byron wrote:The "earth nose" factor is, imo, one of the strongest, not weakest, corroborating factors. Anagrammatists often calculate as many combinations as possible in search of one that has some topical relevance. This is done especially with personal names. Likewise, it's hardly a stretch that a student at Exeter would have some exposure to elementary German.


It's likely that Sanders knew some German since it was a primary language for engineering texts back in those days. He would probably have to learned it to get his engineering degree. I also think David Alexander had some explicit evidence that Sanders studied German.

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Re: ERDNASE

Postby Leonard Hevia » August 10th, 2011, 12:43 am

Yes Bob, David wrote "In the summer of 1879 he attended the Wooster School of Language where he studied Greek, two classes of Latin, and German."

At the age of eighteen, this guy spent his summer cooped up inside various classrooms studying languages instead of playing outside and chasing girls.

The Del Adelphia connection is interesting. I wonder if the NKOTB has uncovered more information on this. Is there correspondence or a candid photo of both these men?

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Re: ERDNASE

Postby Rick Ruhl » August 10th, 2011, 6:17 am

Richard Kaufman wrote:You want a candidate who did card magic.
You want a candidate who played cards a lot.
You want a candidate who matches M.D. Smith's description.
You want a candidate who has a connection to Dalrymple.
You want a candidate with a good reason to remain anonymous.
You want a candidate who was not only a writer, but a writer who would could switch styles readily.
You want a candidate who knew Del Adelphia.


Proof beyond a shadow of a doubt. Would hold up in court.

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Re: ERDNASE

Postby Jonathan Townsend » August 10th, 2011, 11:37 am

I'm looking forward to reading more about the candidate, his other writing and how this text fits in with the rest of his life.

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Re: ERDNASE

Postby El Mystico » August 10th, 2011, 12:33 pm

This is going to be odd for those of us outside the US and still relying on paper copies: to be reading the discussion on this (until now) contentious topic, without yet having the evidence.

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Re: ERDNASE

Postby Richard Kaufman » August 10th, 2011, 12:47 pm

The digital issue will be active shortly.
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Re: ERDNASE

Postby Bill Mullins » August 10th, 2011, 1:00 pm

It just came up.

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Re: ERDNASE

Postby Richard Kaufman » August 10th, 2011, 1:10 pm

The digital issue is NOW live!

NOTE: If you are using the iPad, do NOT check the box to also download multimedia because those files are not ready yet. (You can delete the issue from your iPad tomorrow, then re-download tomorrow and they'll be there.) I don't want your issue to freeze up, so don't attempt to utilize any audio or video until tomorrow. But you CAN read the issue now.
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Re: ERDNASE

Postby Frank Yuen » August 10th, 2011, 1:37 pm

Off to do something I hate - reading text on the computer.

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Re: ERDNASE

Postby Steve Bryant » August 10th, 2011, 2:12 pm

Fascinating.

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Re: ERDNASE

Postby Chris Aguilar » August 10th, 2011, 2:16 pm

Excellent article. Answers many questions/motivations in a clear, logical manner.

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Re: ERDNASE

Postby Frank Yuen » August 10th, 2011, 2:41 pm

Richard Kaufman wrote:You want a candidate who did card magic.
You want a candidate who played cards a lot.
You want a candidate who matches M.D. Smith's description.
You want a candidate who has a connection to Dalrymple.
You want a candidate with a good reason to remain anonymous.
You want a candidate who was not only a writer, but a writer who would could switch styles readily.
You want a candidate who knew Del Adelphia.


Wow! An excellent article and a fascinating read. The only one of the above that doesn't really have strong evidence would be that he knew Del Adelphia but the opportunity to know him certainly appears to be there. May I suggest Richard, that you invite Mr. Demarest to join our discussion here?

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Re: ERDNASE

Postby aofl » August 10th, 2011, 2:42 pm

Compelling. He must certainly leap to the forefront of S.W.E. candidates.

Still... it is circumstantial evidence.

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Re: ERDNASE

Postby Mike Vance » August 10th, 2011, 2:45 pm

Frank Yuen wrote:Wow! An excellent article and a fascinating read. The only one of the above that doesn't really have strong evidence would be that he knew Del Adelphia but the opportunity to know him certainly appears to be there. May I suggest Richard, that you invite Mr. Demarest to join our discussion here?


I believe he already monitors the discussion here.

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Re: ERDNASE

Postby Bill Mullins » August 10th, 2011, 2:47 pm

So how many people are swayed? When I first read it (I got a small head start, and it's been hard to sit on it), I said "I'm convinced. [Marty's] made a believer out of one person." Some of that was giddiness at seeing such a fascinating article about a subject that I hold great interest in (some would say, too much interest . . .) But it was also recognition of the strong case made by Demarest. This is good work.


Over the years, I've gone from believing that Erdnase will never be found -- that the lifestyle that leads one to write a book about excellence at a cheating at cards is a solitary, a-social, lonely pursuit, and it does not tend to leave the sort of documentary trail that one could call "proof" -- to being amazed at the coincidences in the lives of the major candidates with what we know (or think we know) about Erdnase, and thinking that one of these guys will eventually win out. Then I go back again.

Up until a week ago I probably felt that Edwin Sumner Andrews was the strongest candidate, but I still wouldn't say that he was more likely than not to be Erdnase. Now W. E. Sanders holds that position; and I would say that he more likely was Erdnase than was not. But we still don't have documentary evidence tying him to the book, or knowledge that he actually cheated, or performed sleight of hand. The book is about cheating and sleight of hand, and those are important missing pieces -- so much so that MFA has remained a "person of interest" despite all the obvious reasons not to think he wrote the book. I still think there is room to establish someone else as a stronger candidate.

So, I've backed off (a little) from my first reaction. On a scale of 1 to 10 (with 10 being evidence of the level of a signed contract between Sanders and James McKinney; 1 being speculation that Mark Twain wrote it), I'm putting Sanders at an 8 (with sincere surprise that such a strong case could be developed). I still put Hatch's Andrews at about a 5, Karr's Andrews at maybe 3-1/2, MF Andrews at a 2, and other suggested names (Hilliar, Harto, R. F. Foster, etc.) farther down the scale.

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Re: ERDNASE

Postby Richard Hatch » August 10th, 2011, 4:37 pm

Great article, great issue!

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Re: ERDNASE

Postby Roger M. » August 10th, 2011, 5:00 pm

It's a very well written article, and Marty is to be congratulated for getting it published, and the interest folks obviously have in reading it.
It's most definitely a keeper, and I'm very pleased to have it on my (digital for now) shelf.

I take away the following after having read and re-read the article a half a dozen times.

At least 50% of the article is a well written restatement of what David Alexander wrote for Genii, combined with (well written) material culled from this very ERDNASE thread.

Although very detailed, the only real hard evidence presented that would qualify as "new" and/or revealing is the fact that Erdnase wrote "Mutus Nomen".... in his notebook.
Simply penning Mutus Nomen down in a note book and being a hard core card magician dont always go hand in hand.
Having said that, this in and of itself is quite a major find, but not a smoking gun that would let us say Sanders was Erdnase.

The fact that Sanders played a few games like Whist and Coon-Can would pretty much make him like the rest of the guys living in Montana at the time........they all liked to play cards. Playing cards was one of the (if not THE) most popular social activity at the time.
Marty himself writes in this article: "cards were everywhere in Montana during the late 19th century"
........so this wouldn't qualify as "hard" evidence that Sanders is Erdnase.

Del Adelphia lived in Montana, and so did between 250,000 and 300,000 other folks in that same time period.
This wouldn't go very far in implying that Sanders met or knew Del Adelphia. More than a quarter of a million people living in one state cant (and doesnt) result in everybody knowing each other.
So Adelphia living in Montana doesnt lead us anywhere close to a place where we can call Sanders Erdnase with conviction.

Sanders wrote his name in various forms in his notebooks, moving the letters around and apparently being interested in combinations of the letters in his name. This is certainly new and powerfulbut I dont see S.W. Erdnase written anywhere in those notebooks, so I dont find it conclusive..but do find it extremely interesting.

....Sanders matched M.D. Smiths description of Erdnase in appearance.. Yes he did, as Alexander pointed out years ago in his Genii article.

....Sanders was a writeryes he was, we knew that from that same Genii article, and this thread as pointed out by Alexander.

So in the end, we know what we knew before, with the addition of the fact that Sanders wrote Mutus Nomen in one of his notebooks, and liked to scrawl his name with the letters juggled around..or at least even if he didnt like to do it, he did it once or twice as shown by Marty in this article.

Frankly, Ive long held that David Alexanders candidate and Richard Hatchs candidate were quite equal in their possibilities as having authored EATCT.
Martys article certainly keeps them neck and neckand possibly may convince some folks that Sanders should be moved to the front of the line in terms of Erdnase candidates.

I find Richard Hatches candidate, and some of the evidence that Richard has presented previously to be at least as compelling as that presented in Martys article.possibly more so if one were to actually stand back and examine all the facts. Richard Hatchs candidate comes a lot closer to actually having the book in his hand (literally) than does Mr. Sanders.

A great article, one of the best Ive ever read in Geniibut it convinces me of nothing I wasnt already long convinced of, and certainly doesnt result in my affirmation that Sanders was Erdnase.
Sanders remains a very highly ranked candidate, but then he was a very highly ranked candidate 24 hours ago........or a few years ago for that matter.

The take-away?, I would quote from Marty's article directly, from the closing paragraphs........"If he wrote "The Expert" (emphasis mine).

Bravo on the article Richard and Marty!!
As a long time fan of Erdnase and his book, this is a treat without equal in terms of entertaining, enjoyable, and well researched reading.

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Re: ERDNASE

Postby Tom Frame » August 10th, 2011, 5:15 pm

This is a marvelous article! Congratulations to Marty, David and Richard. I'm a believer.
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Re: ERDNASE

Postby Chris Aguilar » August 10th, 2011, 6:39 pm

I especially enjoyed the concrete Dalrymple connection and the very logical reason for desiring anonymity.

As mentioned in the article, this likely isn't the last information to come on this subject from Marty.

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Re: ERDNASE

Postby IrishMagicNews » August 10th, 2011, 7:12 pm

Richard, is there a way to see this article without being a subscriber. Would love to be able to pay a one off charge for this issue if it allowed me access to a digital edition?

Respectfully,

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Re: ERDNASE

Postby David Ben » August 10th, 2011, 7:16 pm

Hopefully the next issue of Magicol will provide some clarity to this debate. I am in the process of assembling the issue for layout now.

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Re: ERDNASE

Postby Richard Kaufman » August 10th, 2011, 7:20 pm

Sorry, Brendan, but there is no way to view the article if you're not a subscriber other than by purchasing a single copy of the regular magazine and having us send it to you.
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