ERDNASE

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Rick Ruhl
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Re: ERDNASE

Postby Rick Ruhl » August 8th, 2011, 7:21 am

Richard,

Was Erdnase Wilbur Sanders?

This is a yes or no question!

Rick

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Re: ERDNASE

Postby Rick Ruhl » August 8th, 2011, 8:12 am

Second question, yes or no:


Does the cover article of the September 2011 issue of Genii Magazine support the position that Erdnase was Wilbur Sanders?

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Re: ERDNASE

Postby Mike Vance » August 8th, 2011, 11:34 am

First, does anyone really believe that Kaufman is going to tip the name two days before the article comes out? Come on people. You can give up on the direct questioning.

Secondly, regarding:
Leonard Hevia wrote:I believe everyone interested in Erdnase is privately speculating on the who and how of the smoking gun. If it's W.E. Sanders, I imagine David Alexander may have found something in Sanders' diaries or possibly some other piece of evidence that put gambling and a deck of cards in Sanders' hands.

It's possible David was planning to spring it on us at the MCA gathering in Chicago this past May. There was an Erdnase lecture at the MCA. Fate intervened and perhaps David's widow passed the papers on to Genii.


This article is completely new research, not David Alexander's work. Whether or not it is an extension of David Alexander's work will become apparent on the 10th.

2 more days!!

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Re: ERDNASE

Postby Leonard Hevia » August 8th, 2011, 11:55 am

Thanks for the heads up Mike. When I wrote that post and submitted it, the Chief Genii had already posted a minute or two ahead of me that it was a new kid on the block. If it's W. E. Sanders, I'm certain that whoever discovered the new information must have leaned on at least some of David and Richard Kyle's work.

The author of this new article sees far because he stands on the shoulders of giants.

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Re: ERDNASE

Postby Chris Aguilar » August 8th, 2011, 11:56 am

Richard was clear that the silhouette on the cover was Erdnase.

The overlay of that cover image with a known image of W.E. Sanders seems to pretty convincingly show that one image was derived from the other. Even the lighting (highlights) matches precisely.

Perhaps I'm mistaken, but the evidence shown so far (rock collection, cover image/Sanders photo, etc.) has convinced me that we will be reading new evidence supporting W.E. Sanders as Erdnase in two days.

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Re: ERDNASE

Postby Bob Coyne » August 8th, 2011, 12:25 pm

Aside from learning Erdnase's identity, it'll be interesting to see whether the new research illuminates various other issues such as:

1) Was Erdnase primarily a gambler or magician?
2) Were there any magic publications due to him under some other pseudonym?
3) Any accounts of his gambling experiences?
4) Any influences on his work (who he learned from, etc)
5) Were there multiple authors of EATCT? Maybe he had a gambling partner who he worked with.

I guess it's unlikely we'll learn much of this sort of thing, but one can hope :-)

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Re: ERDNASE

Postby Rick Ruhl » August 8th, 2011, 12:45 pm

Mike Vance wrote:First, does anyone really believe that Kaufman is going to tip the name two days before the article comes out? Come on people. You can give up on the direct questioning.


he's gonna answer my questions the day it comes out. I knew that.. LOL... he doesnt owe me money so I dont have anything to blackmail him with, except for those pictures at the 1982 IBM convention.....

We all finally know the answer, now to read the proof.

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Re: ERDNASE

Postby Mike Vance » August 8th, 2011, 1:11 pm

Rick Ruhl wrote:he's gonna answer my questions the day it comes out. I knew that.. LOL... he doesnt owe me money so I dont have anything to blackmail him with, except for those pictures at the 1982 IBM convention.....



Those '82 pictures sound interesting... :)

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Re: ERDNASE

Postby Rick Ruhl » August 8th, 2011, 1:22 pm

Mike Vance wrote:
Rick Ruhl wrote:he's gonna answer my questions the day it comes out. I knew that.. LOL... he doesnt owe me money so I dont have anything to blackmail him with, except for those pictures at the 1982 IBM convention.....



Those '82 pictures sound interesting... :)


Interesting, but it wasn't pretty! LOL

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Re: ERDNASE

Postby Bob Coyne » August 8th, 2011, 7:13 pm

Richard Hatch wrote:Curiously, there are two typos (intentional?) in the spelling of "Erdnase" in this clip:
It is captioned "Want to visit Erdanse's office?"

And then the video says: "Where was Erndase's office?"
Another clue, perhaps?


I was wondering about that too. I think they're almost surely intentional. The question is what they mean. Maybe there's evidence that Erdnase considered using these two pseudonyms before settling on Erdnase.

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Re: ERDNASE

Postby JohnCox » August 8th, 2011, 7:51 pm

I can't believe I'm so interested in something that has nothing to do with Houdini.

Wait! Unless...

:p
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Re: ERDNASE

Postby Joe Pecore » August 8th, 2011, 7:56 pm

JohnCox wrote:I can't believe I'm so interested in something that has nothing to do with Houdini.

Well, The Erdnase Change, a color change from Expert at the Card Table, is the same handling credited to Harry Houdini, in Selbit's The Magician's Handbook (New Colour Changes, Fourth Method) (1901) and later in Elliott's Last Legacy (1923) under "Two Effective Moves by Houdini".
Share your knowledge on the MagicPedia wiki.

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Re: ERDNASE

Postby Leonard Hevia » August 8th, 2011, 8:41 pm

We all know that Erdnase told Marshall D. Smith that he was related to the famous editorial cartoonist of the day Louis Dalrymple. A loose end here is W. Sanders' connection with Dalrymple.

Did the "New Kid on the Block" discover this connection? Could this be the smoking gun?

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Re: ERDNASE

Postby Mike Vance » August 8th, 2011, 8:50 pm

Even if he did discover it, would that be considered a smoking gun?

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Re: ERDNASE

Postby Frank Yuen » August 8th, 2011, 8:52 pm

I believe David Alexander already had the connection or at least new of a connection but had yet to verify it conclusively. He mentions earlier in this thread receiving the info from a geneology board.

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Re: ERDNASE

Postby Richard Hatch » August 8th, 2011, 11:31 pm

Frank Yuen wrote:I believe David Alexander already had the connection or at least new of a connection but had yet to verify it conclusively. He mentions earlier in this thread receiving the info from a geneology board.

I believe that David's original GENII article on Sanders mentions that a Reverend Sanders officiated at the funeral of William Dalrymple, the father of Louis. That seemed a bit weak at the time.

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Re: ERDNASE

Postby Richard Hatch » August 8th, 2011, 11:33 pm

Bob Coyne wrote:
Richard Hatch wrote:Curiously, there are two typos (intentional?) in the spelling of "Erdnase" in this clip:
It is captioned "Want to visit Erdanse's office?"

And then the video says: "Where was Erndase's office?"
Another clue, perhaps?


I was wondering about that too. I think they're almost surely intentional. The question is what they mean. Maybe there's evidence that Erdnase considered using these two pseudonyms before settling on Erdnase.

Bob, David Alexander's original research did indicate that Sanders engaged in anagramatic wordplay with his name in his diaries. If these two variants are among them, that would be a very interesting development!

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Re: ERDNASE

Postby Pete McCabe » August 9th, 2011, 1:37 am

I'll tell you what would be a smoking gunSanders' (or anyone's) diary with "S. W. Erdnase" written in it somewhere.

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Re: ERDNASE

Postby Frank Yuen » August 9th, 2011, 5:02 am

Richard Hatch wrote:
Frank Yuen wrote:I believe David Alexander already had the connection or at least new of a connection but had yet to verify it conclusively. He mentions earlier in this thread receiving the info from a geneology board.

I believe that David's original GENII article on Sanders mentions that a Reverend Sanders officiated at the funeral of William Dalrymple, the father of Louis. That seemed a bit weak at the time.


On Dec. 20, 2006 David Alexander posted this:

"By the way, I've learned that my candidates family is related to the Dalrymple family through an uncle, or so I was informed a few years ago by someone off a genealogy bulletin board."

and then on Nov 23, 2007 posted this:

"All that and one other thing: some time back someone sent me info linking Wilbur's family with the Dalrymple family. I have to follow that more closely, but it looks good."

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Re: ERDNASE

Postby Mike Vance » August 9th, 2011, 6:44 am

I can't wait to see what you guys think about the article tomorrow. It's an incredible read that I'm sure you'll love. I know I enjoyed it.

This is going to be fun to watch unfold.

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Re: ERDNASE

Postby Rick Ruhl » August 9th, 2011, 7:36 am

Mike Vance wrote:I can't wait to see what you guys think about the article tomorrow. It's an incredible read that I'm sure you'll love. I know I enjoyed it.

This is going to be fun to watch unfold.


How did you get to look at an early copy? Do you have something on Richard? LOL

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Re: ERDNASE

Postby Mike Vance » August 9th, 2011, 10:38 am

Rick Ruhl wrote:
Mike Vance wrote:I can't wait to see what you guys think about the article tomorrow. It's an incredible read that I'm sure you'll love. I know I enjoyed it.

This is going to be fun to watch unfold.


How did you get to look at an early copy? Do you have something on Richard? LOL


The author is a good friend of mine. I also helped edit the article a little for him as well as dismantle a desk (check out the digital Genii for the explanation of that one). You guys are in for a real treat tomorrow.

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Re: ERDNASE

Postby Roger M. » August 9th, 2011, 10:55 am

I'm sorry, but if the big "reveal" contains additional conjecture, or even hard proof that Sanders was Erdnase, it's not a derivative (or "new") bit of work........it's David Alexanders work.

Sanders is David Alexanders candidate.

It's somewhat insane to imagine that anybody working with Sanders as a candidate wasn't 100% working on the back of David Alexanders hard won research.

Coming up with something "new" is fine, and credit can certainly be given for whatever "new" is put to print............but this isn't "new" work if it's Sanders being probed.

David Alexander (whom I exchanged emails on the topic over quite a few years) was tireless in his research.

Sanders is David's work, and is David's candidate.
I doesn't matter whats "added" (if anything)........it doesn't change the fact that it's David's hard work that got us there.

If it's not Sanders, but somebody he knew, or another member of his family.......same as the above.........it was David's gig.

Nobody would even know who Sanders was if it wasn't for David.

Rant over. (it may not even be Sanders, although that does appear to be Sanders on the cover.......).

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Re: ERDNASE

Postby Rick Ruhl » August 9th, 2011, 10:59 am

[quote=Mike Vance

I also helped edit the article a little for him as well as dismantle a desk (check out the digital Genii for the explanation of that one). You guys are in for a real treat tomorrow. [/quote]

The draft of expert in the card table was hidden in a secret drawer on the site of the Resolute Desks? Shades of National Treasure Book 2.

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Re: ERDNASE

Postby Mike Vance » August 9th, 2011, 11:37 am

Roger,

I don't think anyone is trying to take anything away from Alexander. He and his research were very much respected in this process.

Supposing for the moment that Sanders is the guy, then the process could be likened to a criminal case. A detective, Alexander (figuratively and literally, in this case), identifies a suspect and collects evidence. This then passed on to the prosecutor, who collects additional evidence and prosecutes the case to obtain the conviction. The case doesn't get closed without both parties. And, while they may both feel some ownership, neither one has anything in isolation.

Again, I haven't heard anyone try to take anything away from Alexander during this process. His work has been very much valued and respected. And, yes, Alexander may have identified the suspect, but he unfortunately passed away before he could prosecute the case. This would lead the way to a "new" research effort to close the case.

As you will see, this is not just a few new bits of information. Then you could rightly call it derivative of Alexander's work. This was exhaustive and extensive research that stands on its own. I haven't heard anyone denigrate Vernon by calling his card handling derivative just because Erdnase came first. Alexander rightly deserves respect, but it is insulting to presume that other do not.

Maybe Isaac Newton put it best when he said, "If I have seen further it is by standing on the shoulders of giants."

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Re: ERDNASE

Postby Carlo Morpurgo » August 9th, 2011, 11:44 am

Roger M. wrote:I'm sorry, but if the big "reveal" contains additional conjecture, or even hard proof that Sanders was Erdnase, it's not a derivative (or "new") bit of work........it's David Alexanders work.

Sanders is David Alexanders candidate.

It's somewhat insane to imagine that anybody working with Sanders as a candidate wasn't 100% working on the back of David Alexanders hard won research.

Coming up with something "new" is fine, and credit can certainly be given for whatever "new" is put to print............but this isn't "new" work if it's Sanders being probed.

David Alexander (whom I exchanged emails on the topic over quite a few years) was tireless in his research.

Sanders is David's work, and is David's candidate.
I doesn't matter whats "added" (if anything)........it doesn't change the fact that it's David's hard work that got us there.

If it's not Sanders, but somebody he knew, or another member of his family.......same as the above.........it was David's gig.

Nobody would even know who Sanders was if it wasn't for David.

Rant over. (it may not even be Sanders, although that does appear to be Sanders on the cover.......).





I strongly object to this line of reasoning...If the candidate is Sanders and there is hard (or harder) new proof that he was the one, then this IS new crucial work, period. Whoever did the work (perhaps David himself) must be duly credited, whether it's a continuation of David's research, or a new independent finding.

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Re: ERDNASE

Postby Bob Coyne » August 9th, 2011, 11:51 am

Roger M. wrote:I'm sorry, but if the big "reveal" contains additional conjecture, or even hard proof that Sanders was Erdnase, it's not a derivative (or "new") bit of work........it's David Alexanders work.


Sorry, this is very harsh and just wrong. It's like saying that any of the myriads of advances made in classical physics *are* the work of Newton, or that the people who sent a rocket to the moon didn't do anything new because it all depended on the application of Newton's Laws. Of course, David made the huge breakthrough of identifying Sanders as a candidate and finding some interesting circumstantial evidence. His thinking and research that led to Sanders and the case he built for Sanders as a candidate was brilliant. But if this new work goes significantly beyond that, then it should also be celebrated as new and important.

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Re: ERDNASE

Postby Richard Kaufman » August 9th, 2011, 11:55 am

The issue is being mailed today.

The digital edition should be online sometime tomorrow, but it will probably be noon or later in the day.
Subscribe today to Genii Magazine

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Re: ERDNASE

Postby Chris Aguilar » August 9th, 2011, 11:59 am

Did anyone before David Alexander opine that the anagram might be something other than "Andrews"?

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Re: ERDNASE

Postby Mike Vance » August 9th, 2011, 12:04 pm

Richard Kaufman wrote:The issue is being mailed today.

The digital edition should be online sometime tomorrow, but it will probably be noon or later in the day.


Woo hoo!

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Re: ERDNASE

Postby Bill Mullins » August 9th, 2011, 1:15 pm

Thomas Sawyer, who's been writing and thinking about Erdnase for a lot longer than I have, weighs in.

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Re: ERDNASE

Postby Richard Hatch » August 9th, 2011, 1:36 pm

Bill Mullins wrote:Thomas Sawyer, who's been writing and thinking about Erdnase for a lot longer than I have, weighs in.


Hey, thanks, Bill, that was neat. Anyone else disagree with Sawyer's statement: "Now, if you absolutely had to choose one of these guys as being S.W. Erdnase, I think everyone would agree that it would be the guy in the center."? I have no problem with the fellow in the lower right corner being him (E. C. Howells. Same initials as Edwin C. Hood of H. C. Evans & Co. Coincidence?) based on appearance alone, especially as Smith described the author as being clean shaven and the others in those photos are quite heavily bearded... A moot point since none of them is Erdnase, but I wondered why Sawyer finds the image of Foster in a line up of Erdnase candidates so attractive?

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Re: ERDNASE

Postby Jonathan Townsend » August 9th, 2011, 2:23 pm

Chris Aguilar wrote:Did anyone before David Alexander opine that the anagram might be something other than "Andrews"?


Chris, there's been extensive exploration over the last thirty odd years on that and about anything else that could be done in an armchair on this topic. David Alexander did a fine job of persuing a "reasonable" avenue toward logical candidates and even though he selected one as seeming most likely as detailed in his feature article he continued to be active in the process as you can read from his posts.

IMHO there's little to be gained in getting arugmentative about "who gets credit" till we read the discussion and the crediting given - in just a few days.

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Re: ERDNASE

Postby Chris Aguilar » August 9th, 2011, 2:45 pm

Jon,

I wasn't trying to get into some crediting kerfuffle. As I haven't really followed this "Erdnase Hunt" that much over the years, I was curious if other anagram (but non "Andrews") candidates have been put forth before D. Alexander.

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Re: ERDNASE

Postby Rick Ruhl » August 9th, 2011, 3:10 pm

Richard Kaufman wrote:The issue is being mailed today.

The digital edition should be online sometime tomorrow, but it will probably be noon or later in the day.


Are you gonna let the cat out of the bag at midnight? Like a midnight showing of a movie?

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Re: ERDNASE

Postby Richard Kaufman » August 9th, 2011, 6:38 pm

S
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Re: ERDNASE

Postby Richard Kaufman » August 9th, 2011, 6:38 pm

W
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Re: ERDNASE

Postby Richard Kaufman » August 9th, 2011, 6:38 pm

E
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Re: ERDNASE

Postby Richard Kaufman » August 9th, 2011, 6:51 pm

Now let's all do the Shift.
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Re: ERDNASE

Postby Geno Munari » August 9th, 2011, 7:02 pm

Regarding: "..do the shift", and the two other initial hints from Richard:

That was directly from David Alexander's article in 2000 or thereabouts.


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