ERDNASE

Discuss general aspects of Genii.
Bill Mullins
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Re: ERDNASE

Postby Bill Mullins » July 30th, 2011, 1:54 am

Did Martin Gardner ever move off that position?

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Re: ERDNASE

Postby Richard Hatch » July 30th, 2011, 1:55 am

Richard Kaufman wrote:I didn't think that anyone still believed that Milton Franklin Andrews wrote Expert.

Geno Munari, Bart Whaley, Jeff Busby, probably most audience members after attending Guy Hollingworth's performance of EXPERT AT THE CARD TABLE.
He is still the only known card cheat named Andrews from the period in question, which weighs heavily in his favor, if one is looking for a card cheat named Andrews...

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Re: ERDNASE

Postby Geno Munari » July 30th, 2011, 7:47 am

Richard Hatch wrote:
This site was updated recently, offering an additional clue:
http://www.erdnaseum.com/
_________________________

Lenard Hevia wrote:
Erdnase was hiding in the bushes?


Maybe the clue was He was hiding in the Brush, that is William Brush

Could not resist that. Haha

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Re: ERDNASE

Postby Rick Ruhl » July 31st, 2011, 11:27 am

My big questions. These are a YES or NO question only ;)

Is there a smoking gun in the article?

Are we 100% sure this is Erdnase?

Is this proved beyond a shadow of a doubt?

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Re: ERDNASE

Postby Frank Yuen » July 31st, 2011, 12:06 pm

Richard Kaufman wrote:Of course each person will their own judge of the facts. There will always be those who dispute the evidence of any candidate. But this candidate's evidence is pretty strong ... really strong. Short of a signed contract with the printer, I don't think it's going to get any tighter.


Richard Kaufman wrote:The piece on Erdnase will not be satirical. It's research-based reporting.

As I wrote somewhere else, the only single piece of evidence that would be conclusive is a contract between the candidate and the printer of Expert at the Card Table. Letters wouldn't be conclusive since anyone could have claimed to be the author and written to his friends about it.

The identity of S.W. Erdnase can only be ascertained through circumstantial evidence, but no candidate has ever been put forth that a genuinely convincing case could be made for.

Until now.

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Re: ERDNASE

Postby Leonard Hevia » July 31st, 2011, 12:15 pm

We can scratch out MFA in the upcoming issue. I'm wondering if Genii's answer is one of the candidates proposed by Erdnase scholars. Was it Todd Karr's candidate? David Alexander's? If David was wrong, at least we know more about Wilbur Sanders. David was studyng Sanders' diaries before he passed away. Is it Richard Hatch's candidate? Mr. Hatch's level of research was amazing. I can't believe it would be someone from left field. The suspense is killing me.

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Re: ERDNASE

Postby Richard Kaufman » July 31st, 2011, 12:22 pm

You'll all know soon enough. The issue goes to the printer tomorrow.
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Re: ERDNASE

Postby Chris Aguilar » July 31st, 2011, 1:37 pm

Perhaps RK was giving us a broad hint with his non sequitur in the current video comments in "Genii Speak".

"Wilbur" that is, probably referring to David Alexander's candidate "Wilbur Sanders".

Or perhaps not.

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Re: ERDNASE

Postby cage » July 31st, 2011, 1:56 pm

Since there is still time for idle (idol?) speculation, I'll chime in with my favorite candidate: L'Homme Masque. Like most things that come from the mind of Juan Tamariz, I think it's brilliant. It reminds us we are looking for someone who hid his identity--not someone who was likely to leave a dramatic confession. And it's silly. Erdnase, after all, is a dead man who obviously said everything he wanted to say about the subject of manipulating playing cards. How seriously should we take that?

This is a wonderful thread. I'm glad to see it perking up again.

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Re: ERDNASE

Postby Rick Ruhl » July 31st, 2011, 2:28 pm

Richard Kaufman wrote:You'll all know soon enough. The issue goes to the printer tomorrow.


LOL, I didnt ask who it was.. I just wanted the yes or no quesions answered.

You are SUCH a tease ;)

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Re: ERDNASE

Postby Rick Ruhl » July 31st, 2011, 2:31 pm

cage wrote:Since there is still time for idle (idol?) speculation, I'll chime in with my favorite candidate: L'Homme Masque. Like most things that come from the mind of Juan Tamariz, I think it's brilliant. It reminds us we are looking for someone who hid his identity--not someone who was likely to leave a dramatic confession. And it's silly. Erdnase, after all, is a dead man who obviously said everything he wanted to say about the subject of manipulating playing cards. How seriously should we take that?

This is a wonderful thread. I'm glad to see it perking up again.


This thread is 8 years old.. and now we should finally find out. The question is like in a trial. Is the proof beyond a shadow of a doubt. Will this once and for all end all the questions?

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Re: ERDNASE

Postby Tom Frame » July 31st, 2011, 2:43 pm

And if we can prove his identity, will we feel disappointed that the mystery is solved?
"There is more to consciousness than meets the mind's eye." - Frame

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Re: ERDNASE

Postby Leonard Hevia » July 31st, 2011, 2:56 pm

The answer will arrive in our lifetime. Many magicians who were interested in solving the mystery passed on without ever knowing.

I won't be disappointed.

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Re: ERDNASE

Postby Geno Munari » July 31st, 2011, 3:17 pm

I think that this new information will be interesting and prompt a great deal of discussion, very much like the other candidates discussions. The facts and statements of these entries have churned up passionate fever. This new information, which our Grand Lama Chief Genii handicaps away from the field, will be under a great big microscope that all of the participants of this forum are peering into. I welcome the new candidate.

And on a another note: Somewhere back in this thread somebody suggested an Erdnase Get-together or Summit. I would be willing to sponsor the event and provide the meeting facility and discussion areas for the event. Anyone interested. It would be fun to meet face to face and exchange theories about the candidates etc.

Anyone game for this idea?

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Re: ERDNASE

Postby Rick Ruhl » July 31st, 2011, 4:33 pm

Geno Munari wrote:I think that this new information will be interesting and prompt a great deal of discussion, very much like the other candidates discussions. The facts and statements of these entries have churned up passionate fever. This new information, which our Grand Lama Chief Genii handicaps away from the field, will be under a great big microscope that all of the participants of this forum are peering into. I welcome the new candidate.

And on a another note: Somewhere back in this thread somebody suggested an Erdnase Get-together or Summit. I would be willing to sponsor the event and provide the meeting facility and discussion areas for the event. Anyone interested. It would be fun to meet face to face and exchange theories about the candidates etc.

Anyone game for this idea?


Lets do it.. Id be in if work cooperates

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Re: ERDNASE

Postby Richard Hatch » July 31st, 2011, 4:34 pm

Geno Munari wrote:Anyone game for this idea?

I'm up for it. I'd propose calling it the "Erdnaseum" but someone has beat you to that...

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Re: ERDNASE

Postby Geno Munari » July 31st, 2011, 5:03 pm

Great!

How about calling it:

1) ?

2) Erdnase ?

3) E=?

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Re: ERDNASE

Postby Bob Coyne » July 31st, 2011, 6:03 pm

Chris Aguilar wrote:Perhaps RK was giving us a broad hint with his non sequitur in the current video comments in "Genii Speak".

"Wilbur" that is, probably referring to David Alexander's candidate "Wilbur Sanders".

Or perhaps not.


Good catch! I bet you're right. It seems possible David had some additional evidence for his candidate that is now coming out. In any case, I always thought Wilbur Edgerton Sanders (David's candidate) was the most likely (and interesting) of those proposed. I guess we'll find out soon.

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Re: ERDNASE

Postby Roger M. » July 31st, 2011, 6:39 pm

Geno Munari wrote:
Anyone game for this idea?

I'd be there, especially if it was in Vegas.

In the void that is considered "indisputable hard proof", I'm currently considering this Genii article and its candidate as just that, another "candidate".

I'd love to be proven wrong though, and finally see the face to go with the name (that is, if I haven't already seen it).

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Re: ERDNASE

Postby Larry Horowitz » July 31st, 2011, 8:44 pm

Gino,

This thread is one of the greatest things on the web, bar none.

It has been educational in not only the discussion of Erdnase but aspects of history,gambling, art, research technology and much more. A conclave of the many contributors would be an important event.

I would love to attend.

Larry

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Re: ERDNASE

Postby Bill Mullins » July 31st, 2011, 11:45 pm

Bob Coyne wrote: It seems possible David had some additional evidence for his candidate that is now coming out. In any case, I always thought Wilbur Edgerton Sanders (David's candidate) was the most likely (and interesting) of those proposed. I guess we'll find out soon.


While Sanders is an interesting candidate, once you take away the fact that W. E. Sanders is an anagram for S. W. Erdnase, is there anything that could be called evidence that he wrote Expert at the Card Table?

If the upcoming article has something like that, it will be a feather in the cap of whoever discovered it.

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Re: ERDNASE

Postby Brad Henderson » August 1st, 2011, 7:50 am

Well played

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Re: ERDNASE

Postby Jonathan Townsend » August 1st, 2011, 8:23 am

Richard Hatch wrote:'m up for it. I'd propose calling it the "Erdnaseum" but someone has beat you to that...


Almost an anagram for Ad nauseam :D

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Re: ERDNASE

Postby Bob Coyne » August 1st, 2011, 8:48 am

Bill Mullins wrote: While Sanders is an interesting candidate, once you take away the fact that W. E. Sanders is an anagram for S. W. Erdnase, is there anything that could be called evidence that he wrote Expert at the Card Table?


Other suggestive/supporting evidence for Sanders (as David described out in his article and elsewhere):
1) height matches Smith's recollection
2) age matches Smith's recollection
3) Education level, intelligence, and writing ability matches what we'd expect from the author
4) Sanders interest in dialects and regional speech patterns (Erdnase shows this in the book)
5) Erd-nase in german can be translated as "earth nose" (sanders was a mining engineer)
6) Sanders interest in wordplay with his own name (evidenced in his diaries where he wrote his name as "WES ANDERSon")
7) Sanders was the victim of some sort of scam (erdnase refers to suffering the same)

Obviously nothing definitive in the above, but these help build the circumstantial case.

A couple things I've noticed/discovered beyond these:
1) Erdnase has a mining-themed trick called "the divining rod"
2) Further evidence that Sanders was short (matching Smith's recollection) is that he was the "bow" on the rowing team in college which is typically the smallest/lightest person on the team.

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Re: ERDNASE

Postby Richard Hatch » August 1st, 2011, 9:20 am

Here are the points in favor of W.E. Sanders that I listed in my summary of candidates at the recent MCA weekend:

W. E. Sanders is an anagram of S. W. Erdnase, with the same initials shifted
Right age (as recalled by the illustrator)
"Right" height range (59, 160 lbs. in 1910)
Authored/edited books and articles, some with a Canadian copyright
As a mining engineer, he would have opportunities for card play
Well educated: Phillips Exeter Academy, Columbia School of Mines, Class of 1885
Mining engineer, Erd-Nase = Earth-Nose in German
Championed by David Alexander (a very thoughtful investigator!)

On the negative side, I am not aware of any relationship to Louis Dalrymple, nor have I seen any published writing samples that sound anything like Erdnase. I think if any of the plausible candidates could be closely linked to Dalrymple or convincingly shown to "sound" like Erdnase, it would greatly boost their candidacy.

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Re: ERDNASE

Postby Bob Coyne » August 1st, 2011, 10:48 am

Richard Hatch wrote: On the negative side, I am not aware of any relationship to Louis Dalrymple, nor have I seen any published writing samples that sound anything like Erdnase. I think if any of the plausible candidates could be closely linked to Dalrymple or convincingly shown to "sound" like Erdnase, it would greatly boost their candidacy.


Actually, I think the word choice and stock phrases used by Sanders/Erdnase are often very similar. Here are some examples culled from Sanders' published writing that struck me as sounding like Erdnase (with the equivalent examples from Erdnase):

erd: but it has been MY VERY GREAT GOOD FORTUNE to discover...
sanders: we know the VERY GREAT AND GOOD FORTUNE we had in studying under you

erdnase: I have mapped out a plan of experiment and study that will in time, I TRUST, enable me...
sanders: However, I TRUST I shall be able so to mix the joyous with the serious as to yield a proper "blend" suited to every palate

sanders: during the following year he took A POST-GRADUATE COURSE in Civil Engineering
erdnase: it may enable the skilled in deception to take A POST-GRADUATE COURSE in the highest and most artistic branches of his vocation

erdnase: An INTIMATE ACQUAINTANCE with the modus operandi of card table artifice
sanders: the INTIMATE ASSOCIATIONS which in youths of generous minds form a mutual regard

sanders: the average mining engineer
erdnase: the average card player

sanders: Has "MADE GOOD" at the bar, where he shines
erdnase: he coolly proposes to "MAKE GOOD" by transforming the wrong card

erdnase: It is almost AN AXIOM that a novice will win his first stake.
sanders: this latter is AN AXIOM in mining during this period of development, and should be invariably followed where possible.

erdnase: The first described is AN EXCELLENT ONE for retaining either the top or bottom stock...
erdnase: The position is AN EXCELLENT ONE for ordinary dealing, and should never be changed.
erdnase: The latter position is AN EXCELLENT ONE when it is necessary to make a shift that is apparently a simple cut ...
erdnase: It is AN EXCELLENT MANNER of holding the deck for the true shuffle...
sanders: this joint is without doubt AN EXCELLENT ONE when, and only when, .... the entire pressure upon the frame comes from the direction a or c.

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Re: ERDNASE

Postby Edwin Corrie » August 1st, 2011, 12:39 pm

Some of the other evidence is interesting, but I still find the "earth nose" idea a bit tenuous. Surely it would be almost too much of a coincidence if someone was able to rearrange the letters of his name to come up with an anagram that was an obscure reference to his profession in another language which he (presumably) didn't speak.

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Re: ERDNASE

Postby Leonard Hevia » August 1st, 2011, 12:59 pm

Bob. You convinced me. If Wilbur Sanders isn't Erdnase, it's one hell of a coincidence that both these men favor the same type of phrases.

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Re: ERDNASE

Postby Magic Fred » August 1st, 2011, 1:07 pm

Bob Coyne wrote:
Actually, I think the word choice and stock phrases used by Sanders/Erdnase ...



This line of reasoning might also lead to the conclusion that Paul Gordon is, in fact, Harry Lorayne.

Just a light chiding, very interesting quotes and no offence intended.

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Re: ERDNASE

Postby Richard Kaufman » August 1st, 2011, 1:26 pm

I used to be Harry Lorayne, too.
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Re: ERDNASE

Postby Magic Fred » August 1st, 2011, 1:30 pm

Richard Kaufman wrote:I used to be Harry Lorayne, too.


:grin:

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Re: ERDNASE

Postby Bill Mullins » August 1st, 2011, 2:44 pm

Bob Coyne wrote: Actually, I think the word choice and stock phrases used by Sanders/Erdnase are often very similar. Here are some examples culled from Sanders' published writing that struck me as sounding like Erdnase (with the equivalent examples from Erdnase):

erd: but it has been MY VERY GREAT GOOD FORTUNE to discover...
sanders: we know the VERY GREAT AND GOOD FORTUNE we had in studying under you

Theodore Roosevelt: It is my VERY GREAT GOOD FORTUNE to have the right to claim that my blood is half Southern and half Northern . . .


erdnase: I have mapped out a plan of experiment and study that will in time, I TRUST, enable me...
sanders: However, I TRUST I shall be able so to mix the joyous with the serious as to yield a proper "blend" suited to every palate

Theodore Roosevelt: I TRUST I need hardly say how great it is my pleasure at speaking in this historic capital . . .


sanders: during the following year he took A POST-GRADUATE COURSE in Civil Engineering
erdnase: it may enable the skilled in deception to take A POST-GRADUATE COURSE in the highest and most artistic branches of his vocation

Theodore Roosevelt: Probably most young fellows when they have graduated from college, or from their POST-GRADUATE COURSE, if they take any, feel pretty dismal for the first few years. . .


erdnase: An INTIMATE ACQUAINTANCE with the modus operandi of card table artifice
sanders: the INTIMATE ASSOCIATIONS which in youths of generous minds form a mutual regard

Theodore Roosevelt: A railway-mail clerk is required to show a knowledge of the railway systems along the route where he is to serve, a tolerably INTIMATE ACQUAINTANCE with the geography of the United States. . .


sanders: the average mining engineer
erdnase: the average card player

Theodore Roosevelt: Very few students of naval history will deny that in 1812 the AVERAGE American ship was superior . . .


sanders: Has "MADE GOOD" at the bar, where he shines
erdnase: he coolly proposes to "MAKE GOOD" by transforming the wrong card

T. Roosevelt: I did not make a strong effort to MAKE GOOD afterward
T. Roosevelt: but never in one case has he MADE GOOD the promise of his platform.


erdnase: It is almost AN AXIOM that a novice will win his first stake.
sanders: this latter is AN AXIOM in mining during this period of development, and should be invariably followed where possible.

T. Roosevelt: It is almost AN AXIOM of naval life that the successful commander is . . .


erdnase: The first described is AN EXCELLENT ONE for retaining either the top or bottom stock...
erdnase: The position is AN EXCELLENT ONE for ordinary dealing, and should never be changed.
erdnase: The latter position is AN EXCELLENT ONE when it is necessary to make a shift that is apparently a simple cut ...
erdnase: It is AN EXCELLENT MANNER of holding the deck for the true shuffle...
sanders: this joint is without doubt AN EXCELLENT ONE when, and only when, .... the entire pressure upon the frame comes from the direction a or c.

T. Roosevelt: Munro Ferguson's suggestion as to how you should make what communications we have to make IS AN EXCELLENT ONE.

Other quotes:
"and the WHOLE CALENDAR OF social and industrial injustice"

He liked magic:
"Today, after lunch, Mother took Ethel, Archie and Quentin, each with a friend, to see some most wonderful juggling and sleight of hand tricks by Kellar. I went along . . ." (letter to his son, 1904)

He was 43 in 1902, an accomplished author, and had lived out west amongst poker players. Some would say he was "Machiavellian". He referred to having had political meetings in a "club room".

Except for the fact that TR lived in Washington DC in the winter of 1901-02 (he was president then), which would have made it difficult for him to get the book published in Chicago, it is obvious that he wrote "Expert at the Card Table".

[/sarcasm off]

Don't be convinced by a list of post-hoc coincidences. They are easy to find and construct. Martin Gardner's writings about numerology, and his alter ego Irving Joshua Matrix, show that this is folly.

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Re: ERDNASE

Postby Richard Kaufman » August 1st, 2011, 3:01 pm

Well, it's obvious that Theodore Roosevelt wrote Expert at the Card Table.

Bully for you Bill!
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Re: ERDNASE

Postby Richard Hatch » August 1st, 2011, 3:10 pm

Richard Kaufman wrote:Well, it's obvious that Theodore Roosevelt wrote Expert at the Card Table.

Bully for you Bill!

Teddy Roosevelt's daughter Alice was an accomplished magician, specializing in card tricks. And one candidate, James DeWitt Andrews was a good friend (self described as such) of Teddy Roosevelt. Coincidence?

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Re: ERDNASE

Postby Bill Mullins » August 1st, 2011, 3:33 pm

In his autobiography, TR mentioned having played "old sledge" (a card game) while on his Montana ranch. His hunting partner, John Willis, had previously been a professional gambler.

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Re: ERDNASE

Postby Richard Kaufman » August 1st, 2011, 3:59 pm

Well, I think you fellows have stumbled across the truth. Just think, every Teddy bear in every home provided evidence of the author of Expert all along.
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Re: ERDNASE

Postby Pete McCabe » August 1st, 2011, 4:46 pm

The Erdnase gathering should be called the "N.O. Itnevnoc"

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Re: ERDNASE

Postby Bob Coyne » August 1st, 2011, 5:12 pm

Bill Mullins wrote:
Bob Coyne wrote: Actually, I think the word choice and stock phrases used by Sanders/Erdnase are often very similar. Here are some examples culled from Sanders' published writing that struck me as sounding like Erdnase (with the equivalent examples from Erdnase): [...]

Don't be convinced by a list of post-hoc coincidences. They are easy to find and construct. Martin Gardner's writings about numerology, and his alter ego Irving Joshua Matrix, show that this is folly.


These correspondences weren't meant as convincing evidence that the two are the same (though I think it does add some support to that claim). Instead, they were offered to argue against Richard Hatch's fairly strong assertion "nor have I seen any published writing samples that sound *anything* like Erdnase".

As to your use of Theodore Roosevelt (TR) quotes similar to Erdnase. A few points:

1) There's a *much* larger corpus of text authored by TR to draw upon than for Sanders (who wrote a single technically-oriented book and a few miscellaneous articles). So clearly, it would be easier to find matching examples with TR. If you found someone with comparable literary output as Sanders, it would make a more convincing case. Of course there are many other variables like the genre of writing etc that will have a big effect on language use. The fact that my examples were found in a relatively small set of texts (Mine Timbering (talk about a dry subject) and a few more lively writings of Sanders) I think the correspondences to Erdnase are actually fairly striking.

2) Your TR examples miss some of the signicant combinations and nuances.
- the coupling of TAKE/TOOK with "post-graduate course" in sanders/erdnase versus GRADUATED FROM (in TR). i.e. "TAKE a degree" is idiomatic and a different usage.
- "I trust" paired with ABLE/ENABLE (in sanders/erdnase) versus with I NEED (in TR)
- The "scare quotes" around "MADE/MAKE GOOD" in Sanders/Erdnase versus none (in TR)

3) Even ignoring the above two points and taking your examples at face value, at best that would indicate that one might not want to *rule out* TR as Erdnase based *solely* on his writing style. i.e. every piece of evidence can add to or subtract from the case for a given candidate. For Sanders as Erdnase, I think the similarity in use of language actually adds to the case (rather than subtracts as Richard Hatch seems to feel).

btw, Following up on the "MAKE/MADE GOOD" examples above, it seemed to me (when looking at this originally a couple years ago) that both Sanders and Erdnase used lots of scare quotes. It would be interesting to find out if they're statistically more frequent than the norm from that era. There are many statistical tests of that sort that could be performed.

Actually I think one of the strongest pieces of evidence for Sanders to date is Richard Kaufman's "wilbur" non-sequitur pointed out in an earlier post. I think that really gives it away. :-)

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Re: ERDNASE

Postby Magic Fred » August 1st, 2011, 5:16 pm

Pete McCabe wrote:The Erdnase gathering should be called the "N.O. Itnevnoc"


Not with the candidates proposed so far it shouldn't!

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Re: ERDNASE

Postby Bill Mullins » August 1st, 2011, 9:25 pm

Bob Coyne -- The TR quotes weren't meant to prove TR as an authorial candidate, nor to disprove W. E. Sanders as one. They are only meant to show that coincidences aren't as unlikely as they may initially seem, and similarities in the works of two separate authors are easy enough to find.

Yes, TR has a much larger body of work to choose from. But, he was the first name I pulled out of a hat; I was able to match every Erdnase/Sanders quote to something similar in TR's writings; and it wasn't particularly hard to do so.

I'm pretty sure that if I took authors with more limited outputs, I'd be able to find similar phrasings in a similar way. It won't prove anything other than if you take two sets of a few hundred thousand letters, organized in sentences and paragraphs of English writing, you'll be able to find matching substrings.

The body of Skeptic literature is full of taking sets of coincidences that are purported to "prove" something, and deconstructing them. And unfortunately, much of the evidence for the major candidates for being the author of "Expert" is just that -- sets of coincidences. I've done my share of chasing these, and even identifying some new coincidences -- I once sent David Alexander some newspaper articles that showed W. E. Sanders had been in some legal trouble in the early 1890s, to help establish that he was something of a "rogue" (but not to the extent of Todd Karr's E. S. Andrews); and I demonstrated that Hatch's E. S. Andrews was a card player. Listing coincidences is fun, and it is, in a very limited way, circumstantial evidence. But it isn't solid enough evidence (in my mind) to say that one or the other was the author of "Expert".

I'm really looking forward to the new article in the Sept Genii because I'm hoping that it will provide something more solid than further parallels between the life of someone whose name is Andrews or Sanders or such, and what we believe to be the life of Erdnase.


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