ERDNASE

[Rick Ruhl]

Artists differ in talent and experience so trying the experiment really wouldnt produce anything germane to the discussion.

David,
You've been writing for years--as if it's a fact--that Smith worked from photographs. Your main reason for stating this is that you contend that it is not possible for someone to have sketched all those drawings in one sitting. If one were to find an artist who could sketch quickly enough to do 101 drawings in a day, then it would blow your theory (which you state as a fact) out of the water, and would be ABSOLUTELY germane to the discussion.

John,

My wife Sydney is an artist and has done many sketches in her time. I asked her if it was possible for an artist to do 101 sketches in a day and she said, "If the artist was good, then yes, it can be done in a 'long' day, but clean up would take another day". This takes into account that the subject doesn't have to be there for 'clean up'.

Maybe I'll have her do a couple sketches of my hands and we'll time how long it takes.

Rick and Syd

[Bill Mullins]

The book said the illustrations were "drawn from life"; Marshall Smith said he drew them from life. Why is there any consideration given to the possibility of tracing photographs?

What's the deal with the heart prominent on the back of the left hand in Fig. 69?

The Conjuring Arts Research Center has a nice copy available for download at their site: HERE.

Richard Hatch, I believe you mentioned that you inspected the Marshall Smith scrapbook in the papers of Frederick Duncan at the Smithsonian. Has anyone ever gone through the archives at the Art Institute of Chicago with respect to Smith? I believe he won at least one prize in a contest they sponsored, and their collection owns some of his work. The catalog for their library has the cryptic entry for call # P-20494 "Miscellanea - Pamphlet - Marshall D. Smith"

[Eoin O'hare]

The Conjuring Arts Research Center has a nice copy available for download at their site: HERE.

Cool! I've just uploaded it to my ipod touch using this app. (Mac only)
Tip: Before you upload it on to your ipod touch or iphone, you should re-size the page size so you'll be able to zoom in and out on it. Here's how; double click to open the pdf in 'Preview'. Go to File/Print -in the print menu select your paper size - I choose A4 , click on the "Scale each page to fit paper" and then click the PDF button to save it as a new pdf file that has been resized. Upload this file to your ipod. PDF pocket Erdnase.

[Richard Kaufman]

We offer it as well:
www.geniimagazine.com/Erdnase

[Richard Evans]

A couple of observations:

I agree that it seems unlikely that Erdnase decided to publish the book for the money, despite his claim to the contrary. Its also undoubtedly the case that the book was not written hastily and was the culmination of years of experience. However, it does seem unusual that someone, who had meticulously worked on his book for so long, should decide to travel to Chicago with the intention of finding both an illustrator and a publisher for his book and hope to complete the project within a few weeks.

If this was the case, one possible explanation might be that financial circumstances forced him to publish his work with a degree of haste. Many first-time authors find the time to write their book during a period of illness (which , in turn can be a cause of financial hardship). Its possible that the book was written during a period of protracted illness, or perhaps the manuscript had been completed over a period of time and illness forced publication. While publishing and selling a book is not a good way of getting cash fast, it may have been the only option open to him at the time. It would be interesting to know whether there is any history of illness among the current candidates for Erdnase.

Incidentally, I checked the mysterious fig.69 and the heart-shape on the back of the hand. Rather than looking like draft pencil marks that should have been erased, it looks to me more like an area thats been cut out. At the margins of the heart shape there are a few marks that seem to be protruding from under the edge of the shape.

[Cugel]

So, wait: did he decide to publish the book for money or didn't he?

seems unlikely that Erdnase decided to publish the book for the money, despite his claim to the contrary

one possible explanation might be that financial circumstances forced him to publish his work with a degree of haste

[Richard Evans]

So, wait: did he decide to publish the book for money or didn't he?

I don't know!

Intuitively, it seems unlikely that he would publish the book in order to get money quickly: it's simply not an easy way to get rich quick. Secondly, if he was a cardsharp, ther would be easier ways of getting substantially more fund using his skills. Thirdly, the profile of Erdnase does not suggest that he was a gamblet/con artist and (depending on whose theory you subscribe to) may have been from a well-off background and wouldn't need the money anyway.

However, despite all the evidence pointing away from the author publishing the book to raise much-needed cash, there is an inconsistency in that the publication and printing appears to be somewhat rushed.

I'm not making a statement of fact - just raising either option as a possibility.

[Paul Hayward]

I would like to ask a few questions regarding the excellent interview Geno Munari conducted with Mr Bart Whaley on the Erdnase DVD's. This whole project is monumental in my opinion. Towards the end of the interview Mr Whaley suggests it is possible to account for the discrpancy in Smiths description of Andrews as small in stature compared to the tall M.F Andrews. However, no mention is made of the specific arguments that would presumably cast doubt on the reliability of Smiths description. I was wondering what these explanations could be and what the luminaries on Genii thought about these arguments.

In the interview with Richard Hatch, a tour de force in my opinion, Richard gives a clue by stating that Whaley and Busby simply gave greater weight to the testimony of Edger Pratts. No specifics are provided however.

Also, I notice that in the Magipedia section on Erdnase, it states the following 'Martin Gardner's research, now largely discredited'. Is it largely discredited? The tone of the interviews was more along the lines of entertaining these different hypotheses and trying to weigh up the pro's and cons of each. So my second question would be, is there compelling overwhelming evidence to throw out Martin Gardeners candidate afterall? The quote above would certainly suggest there is.

Regards,

Paul Hayward

[Roger M.]

I was amazed at just how unconvincing Whalley's argument was, even as he spoke directly to the camera.

Frankly, I was expecting to hear the core evidence that led Whalley himself to believe that MFA was Erdnase and that led to the conclusions reached in his book.
Alas, I heard nothing solid from Whalley that would tend to lend weight to that argument, and in fact felt the material in his book was a far stronger argument than what was verbally delivered.
So much of what he said included conclusions that were just opined without any solid evidence to render that conclusion the result of a piece of solid research. (I'm speaking strictly of this project. As I've stated before I believe Whalley to be a solid researcher otherwise).

Dick Hatch on the other hand, delivered what in my opinion is the most solid recitation on Erdnase yet offered by anybody.
He was working largely without notes, and everything he said had the voice of authority attached to it.
Dick's research is comprehensive and is also fleshed out to the point where, even to a "non die hard" fan of the search for Erdnase, Hatch provides a road map that is easy (and extrememly interesting) to follow.

Geno has outdone himself on this project, and I'm happy to have both the Whalley and Hatch viewpoints on video as a reference for the ages.

I'm just beginning with the Ackerman's actual card handling DVD's, as I'm sure others are as well.
These will take some time to absorb fully.
What I've seen to date is fantastic, and Ackerman himself has come a long way in terms of his onscreen personality. Ackerman comes across as somebody who truly understands the Erdnase material to its very core, and further displays assured confidence in everything he's saying and doing.
It may indeed be difficult (and likely impossible) for anybody to ever surpass Ackerman's efforts on this DVD set.

This DVD package (for those who haven't yet purchased it) is currently untouched in terms of what it delivers. The quality of the package itself is superb, and the scope of what it covers is vast and dealt with in a clear and concise manner.

Bravo Geno, Alan, Dick, Martin and Bart for the efforts put into this amazing project.

[Paul Hayward]

Hi Roger,

I've just spent four days solid with a practice mat on my knee and bee cards at the ready watching and going through the whole set from beginning to end. The standard is superb. Allen Ackermans handling is very clear and workmanlike throughout and for my money he captures much of the essence of Erdnase whilst keeping his own identity as a magician. Geno and the team are to be heartily congratulated for a fantastic project. To be fair, the interview with Mr Whalley tended to focus on the method and theory of investigation rather than evidential specifics. I had the distinct impression that he had set aside the research on Erdnase for some considerable time. Richard Hatch, on the other hand, came across with a great deal of passion and enthusiasm for the subject that felt current and ongoing to him.

Regards,

Paul Hayward

[Bill Mullins]

It seems to me that currently, there are four "strong" candidates for Erdnase (M. F. Andrews, Hatch's Andrews, Karr's Andrews, and Alexander's Sanders). The points that weigh most heavily in M. F. Andrews's favor are:

1. He is the only one of these major candidates whom we know to be a gambler and proficient with a deck of cards,

2. He has what would be the closest to contemporary confirmation (statements by Pratt),

3. His family believed he wrote a book (see _The Man Who Was Erdnase).

Weighing against him:

1. "M. F. Andrews" <=> "S. W. Erdnase" is a forced fit, at best.
2. Known samples of his writing don't match the style of EATCT.
3. Inconsistencie in his physical description with the statements of Marshall D. Smith.

[Paul Hayward]

Hi Bill,

Thanks for your reply. This balanced picture does seem to fit with the general discussion. Its your last 'third' point that particularly intrigues me as Mr Whalley suggests he can explain those physical inconsistencies in a way that continues support the M F Andrews hypothesis. Does anyone know what these mitigating arguments are?

Regards,

Paul

[Roger M.]

There aren't any mitigating arguments.

Whalley never met Erdnase, M.D. Smith did.

Smith sat across the table from Erdnase, Whalley didn't.

Smith offers a description of Erdnase as the only person who we know of that is confirmed to have actually met, sat, worked and spoke with Erdnase.

This is all covered in great depth previously in this very thread. I'm not sure how much value there is in going over it again.

[Paul Hayward]

Hello Roger,

It was not my intention to irritiate or stir things up. I suspect I would be agreeing with you. If the only argument for getting round the physical discrepancies is bad memory then that would be most unconvincing given all the other information regarding Smiths testimony. I have ordered 'The Man Who Was Erdnase' and I will look for Whalleys arguments in there.

Regards,

Paul

[Roger M.]

Paul, please don't think you're stirring things up or irritating anybody. You're not.

I'm inclined to talk about this stuff endlessly, as are others here :)

"The Man Who Was Erdnase" is a must have book for those interested in all things Erdnase.
One can disagree with the overall conclusion reached in the book, but still see it for the abundance of amazing research it contains.

Understanding Whalley's arguments as presented in the book will give you a much broader view of the search for Erdnase. (as I said in an earlier post, his written views make a stronger argument than his verbal efforts in the DVD.)
I think Whalley is off base with his MFA conclusion, but that aside the remainder of the book contains some of the best information on Erdnase available anywhere.
There are other sources, but this is one very convenient package containing much factual information that isn't dependent on "opinions".

But back to the topic, to simply put forth that perhaps M.D. Smith had a bad memory is an example of the kind of "conclusion jumping" that plagues the MFA theory.

Here's the rub:
There's absolutely no evidence offered to presume M.D. Smith had a poor memory, and further there's no reason to presume that his description of Erdnase isn't 100% accurate.

Just saying "perhaps M.D. Smith had a poor memory" with absolutely no reason to make such a statement doesn't remotely justify the huge physical differences we know exist between MFA's police description and M.D. Smith's first hand description of Erdnase.

[Paul Hayward]

Thanks Roger. An excellent reply.

Regards,

Paul

[Marco Pusterla]

Sorry, but I think somebody is concentrating too much on Bart Whaley's part in the MWWE project. I understand (I may be wrong, though) that was Martin Gardner who made the connection Erdnase -> Milton Franklin Edwards, it was Gardner who tracked down M.D. Smith and introduced him to the magical fraternity, it was Gardner who interviewed Pratt and it was was Gardner who did the bulk of the research. I understand that the major contribution of Bart Whaley to the book was to collate the material found by Gardner and put it in narrative form, in addition to run some minor checks (like finding Andrews' grave...).

Or did I miss something???

[Roger M.]

Marco, the book is certainly based on Gardners original footwork.

You didn't miss anything.

I believe that Whaley did more than just "run some minor checks" though.
There are sections of the book that are clearly written by Busby, with much of the remainder of the material put into words, and then onto the page by Whaley.
I'd not call it "collating the material" though, as much of this content is written in Whaley's voice.

You've highlighted an important point for those who may not know the story "in depth", and that's that when speaking to the theory that Milton Franklin Andrews was Erdnase, we're actually speaking to an argument that was proposed by Gardner, researched and supported by Whaley, and adamantly stuck to by both parties as the end of the search for Erdnase.

I'd not underestimate Whaley's input into the book itself though, the guy knows how to dig, research, and write.

He may have just reached the wrong conclusion though, as Gardner might have :)

[Marco Pusterla]

Roger,

Personally, I believe that Whaley's involvement with the project was more a literary one rather than about of finding new information.

In the book, he writes (p. 287):

I couldn't share the pleasure that Gardner and Marshall had in meeting several of these persons. My delights came from digging out undiscovered newspaper reports and some new documents and then, by comparison with the old evidence to gain fresh insight.

My understanding of the above (then he continues with a phrase about the pleasure of talking to descendants of Andrews...) is that Whaley accepted and supported Gardner's theory and was able to flesh it out in a captivating way. The book is certainly about Andrews' life, but the possibility that Andrews was Erdnase is not sure (as we know: this is why we're discussing it! :D ).

All the best,

[Terry]

Jon R. recommended a book in his Genii column that might offer up other candidates if researched.

The book is 'Knights of the Green Cloth - The Saga of the Frontier Gamblers' by Robert K. DeArment.

On page 356, a gambler by the name of Bert Bell has a resemblance to Erdnase's description.

The book describes Bell as practicing his second deal for 2 hours per day to maintain his skill. A veteran gambler called him the most perfect dealer of seconds he ever saw. "He was also an excellent bottom dealer and quick run-up artist. He was expert at the false shuffle and location work."

[Magic Randy]

Jon R. recommended a book...

The book is 'Knights of the Green Cloth - The Saga of the Frontier Gamblers' by Robert K. DeArment....

I also highly recommend this book.

[Bill Mullins]

I understand (I may be wrong, though) that was Martin Gardner who made the connection Erdnase -> Milton Franklin Edwards,

Not to denigrate in any way Martin Gardner's enormous contributions to Erdnase research, but wasn't it Pratt who first proposed that Erdnase = M. F. Andrews?

[Marco Pusterla]

Not to denigrate in any way Martin Gardner's enormous contributions to Erdnase research, but wasn't it Pratt who first proposed that Erdnase = M. F. Andrews?

Bill,

I'm away from my library now but if I remember correctly, Gardner found the link to Andrews thanks to somebody tipping him about "Erdnase" being "Andrews" in reverse, then finding all newspapers about the Andrews case and sending the photos to Pratt who eventually confirmed the murder was indeed his old friend Andrews.

All the best,

[Carlo Morpurgo]

I'm away from my library now but if I remember correctly, Gardner found the link to Andrews thanks to somebody tipping him about "Erdnase" being "Andrews" in reverse,

In the Genii article it's claimed that Gardner immediately recognized the Andrews anagram.

Carlo

[John Bodine]

Getting back to the illustrations for a moment, Mr. Erdnase references the illustrations in his writing, and should he have had the book finished at the time he hired Mr. Smith wouldn't it be likely that he knew in advance what positions he wanted illustrated? This would certainly make the process go much more quickly as he would know not only the hand position but perhaps the angle from which he wanted it illustrated.

To Jason England's point, if someone were to sit down draw 101 illustrations of predefined positions and predefined angles, wouldn't the process go quite quickly?

-johnbodine

[Bill Mullins]

One of Jay Marhall's first edition copies came from the library of Edward Gallaway, who Busby/Whaley/Gardner tell us was McKinney's typesetter and later his business partner.

From the Chicago Tribune, May 11, 1930, p. 16
"Ed. Gallaway, Printing Trade Estimator, Dies

Edward Gallaway, 67 years old, 5429 West Harrison street, president of the Printers' Estimating school, died Friday afternoon. He was widely known as a printing estimator. He established the school in the Transportation building six year ago, at which time he was chief estimator for R. R. Donnelly & Sons company.

Mr. Gallaway published two technical books on estimating in printing and was a member of the Old Time Printers' association.

He is survived by his widow, Rose; a son, William C. Bellwood, and a daughter, Mrs. Julia Dryden of Colorado Springs, Colo. Funeral services will be held tomorrow afternoon at 3 o'clock from the chapel at Madison street and Western avenue, in charge of Excelsior lodge of Odd Fellows."

Weird coincidence: This obituary is immediately next to one for Harry Blackstone.

From WorldCat:

"How to Price Job Printing Properly," by Edward Gallaway. Chicago: E. Gallaway, 1929.

"Estimating for Printers, Prepared for the Students of the Chicago School of Applied Estimating for Printers," by Edward Gallaway. Chicago: Printers Estimating School of Chicago, 1927, 1931.

[George Olson]

Hey, Bill Didn't Harry Blackstone pass in 1965?

Unless the coincidence was the similarity of names

GO

[Bill Mullins]

This one was "Irving Harry Blackstone", not the magician.

[George Olson]

Whew, I thought I'd entered a time warp....

GO

[Richard W]

hi there

I have been doing some research into another possible candidate for erdnase. This indivdual is called Herbert Lee Andrews. In brief, he...
- Had a wife named Emma Shaw Andrews (S.W Erdnase in reverse).
- Lived in Chicago around the time of publication of Expert.
- Helped run a business just a few blocks away from James McKinney and Co. This business went bankrupt a few years before the publication of Expert.
- Was well educated, and had an analytical and inventive mind, with several engineering patents to his name (thus perhaps explaining the detailed nature of Expert and the unusual copyright notices in the book).
- Came from a well-respected and religious family based in Hartford County (thus providing a possible motivation for anonymity).

The little bit of research that I have carried out into his life is described here:

http://www.richardwiseman.com/erdnase.html

and it would be great if anyone can find out more, especially any links with gambling or magic. No idea if it will come to anything, but I thought it was worth mentioning.

[Eoin O'hare]

This wouldn't be a psychological research experiment aimed specifically at magicians, would it?

[Jonathan Townsend]

That's a remarkable find and as RichW noted it raises some questions.

[Richard W]

LOL. Nope! I have done some research with magicians, such as this survey:

http://www.richardwiseman.com/magicsurvey.html

but nothing to do with Erdnase!

[Tortuga]

Very interesting development. Three questions immediately come to mind. First, is there any physical description or photo documentation of H.L. Andrews? That might corroborate M.D. Smith's description of Erdnase. Second, is there a date of birth for H.L. Andrews? M.D. Smith said the man claiming to be Erdnase was 40 or 45 at the time that he did the drawings for the book. Finally, is there a way to determine whether H.L. Andrews was related to Louis Dalrymple?

An interesting candidate for sure, but lots of digging to do to flesh out more details.

[Jim Maloney]

M.D. Smith said the man claiming to be Erdnase was 40 or 45 at the time that he did the drawings for the book.

The link to Richard gave to his site lists HL Andrews' birth year as 1844, which would put him at 58 in 1902, which puts him a 13-18 years older than what M.D. Smith suggested. It's not entirely unreasonable that he could have looked younger if he was in good health, but it is somewhat of a stretch.

-Jim

[Jim Maloney]

This also raises the question, "Why didn't he illustrate the book himself?":

He was described as having a natural taste for drawing and perspective, and a high admiration of the beauties of nature.

-Jim

[Rick Ruhl]

What if...

What if Erdnase wasn't a man. What if it was a woman, say, Emma Shaw Andrews, knew all the moves and wrote the text to Expert At the Card Table, and had a friend pose as Erdnase for the drawings since at that time, women were not considered equal in society?

She could have been with the gamblers as the 'woman' and learned all the moves, then if her husband gambled away all of his money. wrote this book to get the money back and to get even with her husband.

[Richard W]

Very interesting development. Three questions immediately come to mind. First, is there any physical description or photo documentation of H.L. Andrews? That might corroborate M.D. Smith's description of Erdnase. Second, is there a date of birth for H.L. Andrews? M.D. Smith said the man claiming to be Erdnase was 40 or 45 at the time that he did the drawings for the book. Finally, is there a way to determine whether H.L. Andrews was related to Louis Dalrymple?

An interesting candidate for sure, but lots of digging to do to flesh out more details.

All good questions. I have not been able to find any physical description or pgotograph of H L Andrews, which is surprising. Good point re Smith's memory of Erdnase's age - I am not sure how much faith I would put in his comments, given that they were about events that happened to him over 40 years ago - but, if they are accurate then it doesn't support the H.L.A idea. Re Louis Dalrymple, interestingly Dalrymple worked as a cartoonist for Puck, and a series of special issues of Puck were produced at the Chicago World's Fair, some of them featuring Dalrymple's work. Details and examples here:
http://www.graphicwitness.org/group/election92.htm
There are several online sources showing that A H Andrew's and Co exhibited at the Fair, and provided all of the furniture for one of the major banks there.
Again, might mean nothing at all, but perhaps worth investigating further.

[Richard W]

This also raises the question, "Why didn't he illustrate the book himself?":

He was described as having a natural taste for drawing and perspective, and a high admiration of the beauties of nature.

-Jim

Yes, I can't tell from the patents whether he did the drawings himself. As I say, I am not arguing that he was Erdnase, just that he is an interesting possibility. There is rather a limit to the digging that I can do from the UK, so thought he was worth mentioning in case anyone could find out more.

[Richard W]

What if...

What if Erdnase wasn't a man. What if it was a woman, say, Emma Shaw Andrews, knew all the moves and wrote the text to Expert At the Card Table, and had a friend pose as Erdnase for the drawings since at that time, women were not considered equal in society?

She could have been with the gamblers as the 'woman' and learned all the moves, then if her husband gambled away all of his money. wrote this book to get the money back and to get even with her husband.

Yes, of course! That would explain the heart on illustration 69 - it was her way of saying 'i love you, even though you lost all our money'. The other option is that M D Smith actually met Emma Shaw Andrews, but dressed as a man. This would explain why Smith said Erdnase's hands were 'like a womens'. It all seems so obvious in retrospect.