ERDNASE

Discuss general aspects of Genii.
Roger M.
Posts: 1507
Joined: January 17th, 2008, 12:00 pm

Re: ERDNASE

Postby Roger M. » February 5th, 2008, 12:14 pm

David,
Do you think that any action Erdnase might have had a lawyer undertake on his behalf against McKinney might have proceeded beyond a "harsh" letter?

If a letter didn't do the job perhaps some sort of legal process could have been undertaken?

Blair

Richard Hatch
Posts: 1955
Joined: January 17th, 2008, 12:00 pm
Location: Providence, Utah
Contact:

Re: ERDNASE

Postby Richard Hatch » February 5th, 2008, 3:52 pm

Leo Rullman, writing in his BOOKS OF YESTERDAY column in The Sphinx in 1929, says that the publisher at that time [Frederick J. Drake] had "not been in touch with him [the author] for many years, as the copyright was purchased outright and no royalties figured in the transaction." This is specific enough that I think it reasonable to assume that Rullman, a trustworthy source on such things, must have gotten this information directly from Drake, likely in correspondence with them on this topic. Whether Drake was trustworthy is another question. Incidentally, an earlier column of Rullman's, in the November 1928 Sphinx, is the earliest published reference to S. W. Erdnase=E. S. Andrews that I have found.

Richard Hatch
Posts: 1955
Joined: January 17th, 2008, 12:00 pm
Location: Providence, Utah
Contact:

Re: ERDNASE

Postby Richard Hatch » February 5th, 2008, 4:15 pm

To clarify my earlier post on Vernon's involvement in the search for Erdnase, his Genii Touch column of August 1970 is devoted to Erdnase. There he credits Drake with having told Sprong that S. W. Erdnase was the name "Andrews" all mixed up, which was apparently the first Vernon learned this. He (Vernon) says he (Vernon) subsequently "badgered" Drake "religiously for months" in the hopes of learning more information about "Andrews" but claims Drake told him he could "not betray a confidence" and told him nothing further. It is not clear to me how reliable this account of Vernon's is on this point. I suspect he was dealing with Frederick J. Drake's son, who was later president of the company, rather than Frederick J. Drake himself. The fact that Vernon claims to have spent "months" pestering Drake on this point indicates that it was likely during his prolonged stint cutting silhouettes at the 1933 World's Fair, unless anyone knows of a similar period of time he spent there at an earlier date.
In the same column he discusses Gardner's research and says that he (Vernon) was "fairly certain this Milton Andrews, who was a gambler, was not the one who wrote the book." He also questions whether M. D. Smith was illustrator of the book, based on his weak recollection of the work years later.

David Alexander
Posts: 1549
Joined: January 17th, 2008, 12:00 pm
Location: Aurora IL

Re: ERDNASE

Postby David Alexander » February 5th, 2008, 6:20 pm

Drake never owned the copyright and did not own the plates. That is clear from the evidence, regardless of his self-serving statement to Rullman who doubtless reported it correctly, but had no understanding of what was going on. Had Rullman does a tiny bit of digging, he would have had an interesting story on his hands. It was all there for them to find...but they didn't.

Richard Hatch
Posts: 1955
Joined: January 17th, 2008, 12:00 pm
Location: Providence, Utah
Contact:

Re: ERDNASE

Postby Richard Hatch » February 5th, 2008, 11:45 pm

Originally posted by David Alexander:
Drake never owned the copyright and did not own the plates. That is clear from the evidence, regardless of his self-serving statement to Rullman who doubtless reported it correctly, but had no understanding of what was going on. Had Rullman does a tiny bit of digging, he would have had an interesting story on his hands. It was all there for them to find...but they didn't.
Hmmm... The claim that Drake obtained the original first edition plates from the presumed printer McKinney comes to us from Martin Gardner, though I have been unable to ascertain his source and verify this claim. Drake was selling first editions at half price in 1903 and it is certainly plausible that they might have obtained the copies and the plates as part of a liquidation of the assets of McKinney's business, but I would classify that as conjecture at present. It seems to me equally possible that they could have obtained the books, the plates and the copyright from a discouraged author who (in his own words) "needed the money." The fact that Drake did not formally file the paperwork to transfer the copyright and did not later renew it is not proof they did not own those rights. Without knowing the details of the author's dealings with McKinney (who not only allowed the author to file the copyright using their address but also sold copies of the book) it is not possible to know who owned the plates, McKinney or the author. Quite possibly the author did not pay his full bill to McKinney (which might have contributed to their subsequent bankruptcy!) and so McKinney claimed ownership of the plates and unsold copies in payment. Obviously, this is speculative conjecture, but so is (I think) the claim that McKinney was merely a printer paid in full in advance with no vested interest in the publication. On what evidence is such a claim based?

David Alexander
Posts: 1549
Joined: January 17th, 2008, 12:00 pm
Location: Aurora IL

Re: ERDNASE

Postby David Alexander » February 6th, 2008, 5:39 pm

My scenario is based on common sense, how printers and businesses behave, how people behave, and a rational interpretation of the evidence developed so far. People act in their own self-interest and often they see what they can get away with for their own benefit.

The book was, as announced on the fly title, Published by the Author. McKinney was not the publisher and there is zero evidence that he was anything but a printer. Being the printer meant they did the job for a fee. Like every other small printer, they would require the job to have been paid in advance, especially for a stranger, a walk-in off the street. They had to make over 200 individual plates to print the book, a large investment in time and material for a small shop. McKinney almost certainly sent Erdnase to Marshall Smith who was paid for his work by Erdnase. It is highly unlikely that in this instance McKinney acted as a publisher or participating partner. That Erdnase contributed in any way to McKinneys subsequent bankruptcy is without merit.

Drake gives himself away by trying to re-copyright the book under the name Robert Erdnase. If he had the copyright assigned or purchased, there was no need for him to do that. It is possible that Hilliar, who Drake had published, gave him advice about a property Drake could pick up easily, but we do not know, even though The Man Who Was Erdnase claims without a shred of evidence presented, that Hilliar brokered the sale of the plates to Drake. Perhaps all of Drakes actions were done innocently from information supplied by Hilliar. At this remove, no one knows.

I am amazed that you dont see the renewal of the copyright as evidence that Drake did not own it. To think otherwise makes absolutely no sense. It was a property that had been selling well for years and it was in Drakes self interest to renew the copyright IF HE WAS ABLE. I take the lack of renewal as clear evidence that Drake could not renew it because he did not have standing to do so.

I think what happened is that Erdnase was out of touch with McKinney for a period of time and only learned about McKinneys bankruptcy after the fact and Drakes acquisition of the plates and the remaining book stock. All he needed to do was hire an attorney and show the copyright paperwork, the cancelled checks to McKinney and Smith (since he paid Smith with a check it is likely that he paid McKinney with a check or checks), all sufficient evidence to prove ownership of the book.

A letter could have been sent by Erdnases lawyer without ever having to divulge his real identity to Drake. Drake, knowing that he hed been caught out or acting in good faith on bad advice, had no defense. For Drake this was just another title in a large catalog of exploitation material. A defense would have been time consuming and expensive, especially when he would almost certainly lose both civilly and criminally, if charges had been brought. It was simpler and cheaper to settle, so a deal could have been struck for the lease of the plates and a royalty.

I also think that royalty payments were made for a time, easily mailed to whatever bank Erdnase named. One day the royalty checks came back, account closed. Drake has no way to contact his author, but he had no incumbency to hunt him down and pay him money, but he could not do anything else but make sure the accounting was accurateand of course, like any smart publisher, he kept selling the book.

The year 1930 rolls around, copyright renewal is due but Drake has been caught out once before and declines to do anything that would prompt legal action, so the copyright is not renewed and book reverts to the public domain, but Drake continues to sell it, an important point. Seven years later he sells the plates, but by that time photo offset was becoming more financially viable, so a knock off of the title was possible without resetting the entire book. Drake did well with the title and never knew who Erdnase really was, perhaps erroneously thinking it was someone named Andrews to whom he paid royalty and lease payments.

And, I find Drake selling the plates seven years later to be telling because in those days seven years was the time that one could legally assume someone was dead. Doubtless, when Drake sold the property he had the new buyer assume all responsibilities which allowed Drake to keep the royalties and lease payments, a nice bonus on top of the profits hed made over the years. Thats what a good businessman would have done.

It should also be noted that none of the people who interviewed Marshall Smith were anything like trained researchers or historians. This was an inconsequential job for Smith who only recognized the work from the style of lettering he used in numbering the drawings.

Martin Gardner had an agenda in dealing with Smith as is clear from the published correspondence where he is pushing Smith to correctly remember Erdnases height as corresponding with M.F. Andrews, many inches taller than the man Smith remembers. To his credit, Smith did not alter his memory to support Martin Gardners theory, which is wrong in so many ways. After several exchanges over the years, Smith did move his estimate one inch, but that was a long way from Andrewss six feet plus to the man Smith remembered as being 56 or so, as Dick Hatch so ably demonstrated at the LA History Conference.

Richard Hatch
Posts: 1955
Joined: January 17th, 2008, 12:00 pm
Location: Providence, Utah
Contact:

Re: ERDNASE

Postby Richard Hatch » February 7th, 2008, 12:05 am

Originally posted by David Alexander:

The book was, as announced on the fly title, Published by the Author. McKinney was not the publisher and there is zero evidence that he was anything but a printer. Being the printer meant they did the job for a fee. Like every other small printer, they would require the job to have been paid in advance, especially for a stranger, a walk-in off the street.
What is the evidence that Erdnase was a stranger to McKinney? Certainly he could have been, but we really don't know. Erdnase picked McKinney for some reason, perhaps because they were not strangers. My favorite candidate, Edwin Sumner Andrews, was raised on a farm where his nearest neighbor was an Irish immigrant named Patrick McKinney who had a son named James. James McKinney, the printer, was the son of an Irish immigrant and James had a brother named Patrick who worked in his print shop. Probably just a goofy coincidence, but maybe not (McKinney is not a common name). I see no reason to assume the printer did not know who the author was. The fact that he allowed the author to use his address on the copyright registration and sold copies of the book (presumably on behalf of the author) argues otherwise, in my opinion. One of Jay Marhall's first edition copies came from the library of Edward Gallaway, who Busby/Whaley/Gardner tell us was McKinney's typesetter and later his business partner. I doubt many typesetters keep copies of the books they work on, again suggesting more than a "job for hire" in this instance.



Drake gives himself away by trying to re-copyright the book under the name Robert Erdnase.
I am not aware that Drake made any such attempt. The "Samuel Robert Erdnase" mislisting comes from a Drake catalog of 1904 that also listed the book as 204 pages (rather than 205) with just 45 illustrations (rather than 101). I know of no associated attempt to re-copyright the work under that description. Occam's razor would favor the multiple errors as being sloppiness on the part of Drake's advertising department, not dishonesty on Drake's part.


And, I find Drake selling the plates seven years later to be telling because in those days seven years was the time that one could legally assume someone was dead. Doubtless, when Drake sold the property he had the new buyer assume all responsibilities which allowed Drake to keep the royalties and lease payments, a nice bonus on top of the profits hed made over the years. Thats what a good businessman would have done.
I don't think either the sale of the Erdnase plates to Frost circa 1937 (the last dated Drake edition) or Drake's failure to renew the copyright is very significant. Drake transfered to Frost several titles as part of the same deal: Roterberg's Card Tricks, Kunard's Book of Card Tricks and Robert-Houdin's Card-Sharpers. Several of these were copyrighted by Drake in 1902 (the Roterberg and Robert-Houdin) and were continuously in print from Drake up until the time of the transfer to Frost. None of them had their copyrights renewed by Drake. I think it merely reflects a change in the company's publishing interests. They divested themselves of their entire sleight of hand line, including Erdnase


Martin Gardner had an agenda in dealing with Smith as is clear from the published correspondence where he is pushing Smith to correctly remember Erdnases height as corresponding with M.F. Andrews, many inches taller than the man Smith remembers. To his credit, Smith did not alter his memory to support Martin Gardners theory, which is wrong in so many ways.
Gardner first found and interviewed Smith several years before he developed the Milton Franklin Andrews theory and had no agenda at that time. Later he did return to Smith in an attempt to corroborate the claims of Edgar Pratt, who's claims Gardner initially found highly suspect. Only when Gardner obtained weak (in my opinion) confirmation that James Harto had claimed some association with Erdnase (a claim Gardner first heard from Pratt, but which has nothing to do with MFA) did he take Pratt's claims seriously and become convinced of the MFA theory.

Bill Mullins
Posts: 5415
Joined: January 17th, 2008, 12:00 pm
Location: Huntsville, AL

Re: ERDNASE

Postby Bill Mullins » February 7th, 2008, 10:24 am

Without taking a side on the extraordinarily interesting discussion between Alexander and Hatch, I'd note that some of the points raised might be supportable from the record:

Originally posted by David Alexander:
McKinney almost certainly sent Erdnase to Marshall Smith . . .
Is there any evidence that McKinney (or Drake) ever worked with Marshall Smith on any other project? (I know that Richard Hatch is accumulating other Drake books). Did McKinney and Drake ever work on anything else together?


For Drake this was just another title in a large catalog of exploitation material.
By this, do you mean that Drake had played fast and loose with other copyrighted works in its catalog? Has anyone ever checked this?

Bill Mullins
Posts: 5415
Joined: January 17th, 2008, 12:00 pm
Location: Huntsville, AL

Re: ERDNASE

Postby Bill Mullins » February 7th, 2008, 10:45 am

Originally posted by Richard Hatch:
One of Jay Marhall's first edition copies came from the library of Edward Gallaway, who Busby/Whaley/Gardner tell us was McKinney's typesetter and later his business partner. I doubt many typesetters keep copies of the books they work on, again suggesting more than a "job for hire" in this instance.
From Census records:

1910: Edward Gallaway, age 41, address 3353 Polk St. Occupation printer, works at a print shop. Born Ohio, mother born Ireland, father born US. Wife Rose (age 37), daughter Julia (age 16), son William (age 7)

1920: Mostly the same. New address: 5420 Harrison St. Still works as a printer at a print shop. Lists both parents as being born in Ireland this time. Son William (age 17) is now an apprentice at a print shop.

1930. Both kids have moved out. Still at the same house; now he owns it and its value is $5000. He is now the proprietor of a print shop. Now his father was born in NY.

I've no idea how close either Polk or Harrison St. was to the McKinney plant.

In 1918, an Edward Gallaway ran for Cook County commissioner. Dunno if it is the same guy.

Richard Hatch
Posts: 1955
Joined: January 17th, 2008, 12:00 pm
Location: Providence, Utah
Contact:

Re: ERDNASE

Postby Richard Hatch » February 7th, 2008, 11:14 am

Bill, thanks, as always, for the great info!
I don't yet know of other links between McKinney and Marshall Smith, or McKinney and Drake, or Drake and Smith. Drake started his business in 1899 and expanded his line of titles greatly in 1901-1903. This included hiring William J. Hilliar to provide a number of titles, including Downs' Tricks with Coins, which Hilliar had ghosted (the reprint irked Downs, whose permission had apparently not been secured, but did not break his friendship with Hilliar), Hilliar's "translation" of Robert-Houdin's CARD SHARPERS (which was a direct reprint of an earlier edition with which Hilliar had had nothing to do) and Hilliar's own MAGICIAN'S HANDBOOK, which was patterned on and in parts plagiarized Selbit's Handbook (which Drake briefly advertised in their catalog). I suspect Drake was duped by Hilliar (who was also in Chicago editing the first issues of the Sphinx for the Vernelos) though they may have knowingly encouraged this thievery. However, they clearly secured Roterberg's permission to publish an expurgated edition of his NEW ERA CARD TRICKS, and commissioned and copyrighted other titles they published. Erdnase is unique among the Drake titles I have seen in bearing the author's copyright, rather than Drake's which would argue in favor of their not having secured the copyright when they began publishing it, but having worked something out with the author. My guess is that Rullman was mistaken in naming Drake as the copyright holder in 1928, rather than merely the publisher at that time. A 1920 guide to publishing for authors states that Frederick J. Drake would buy works outright or pay royalties, so either is possible in the case of Erdnase.

User avatar
Richard Kaufman
Posts: 25640
Joined: July 18th, 2001, 12:00 pm
Favorite Magician: Theodore DeLand
Location: Washington DC
Contact:

Re: ERDNASE

Postby Richard Kaufman » February 7th, 2008, 2:51 pm

I've removed a link from Gord's post that was screwing up the layout of this thread and making it impossible to read. I did try using the URL button (Mr. Maloney!), but it wouldn't create an abbreviated link for some reason.
Subscribe today to Genii Magazine

Bill Mullins
Posts: 5415
Joined: January 17th, 2008, 12:00 pm
Location: Huntsville, AL

Re: ERDNASE

Postby Bill Mullins » February 7th, 2008, 4:09 pm

Some interesting articles and classified ads:

Chicago Daily Tribune (1872-1963); Jul 28, 1895; p. 6;
"Says They Were Employes Only.

Treasurer F. O. Bartlett of the Regan Printing House denies James McKinney's assertion
that he and Charles L. Van Inwegen ever occupied official positions in the Regen company.
Van Inwegen embezzled a sum of money from McKinney Wednesday night and left for
Nebraska. "Charles L. Van Inwegen," said Barlett, "never owned one share of stock in our
company or occupied official position. He was employed in the capacity of accountant
only at a salary of $1,200. James McKinney was never manager of the company, but a
solicitor on salary."

Chicago Daily Tribune, 30 Jan 1903 p. 7 (and 31 Jan 1903, p. 7)
"In the District Court of the United States for the Northern District
Of Illinois, Northern Division

IN THE MATTER OF JAMES MCKINNEY, Bankrupt - No. 8577.

Public notice is hereby given that the undersigned, The Equitable
Trust Company, Receiver of said estate, will receive bids for the whole
or any portion of the property of said estate at any time up to nine
o'clock a. m. of the 4th day of February, A.D. 1903.

Each bid must be accompanied by cash or a certified check for at
least fifteen per centum of the amount of such bid.

All bids so received will be submitted to his Honor, Christian C.
Kohlsaat, Judge of said Court, at ten o'clock a. m. on the 4th
day of February, A.D. 1903, for approval or rejection.

An inventory of the property of said estate may be seen at the office
of the undersigned, No. 152 Monroe street, Chicago, Illinois, and
the property is open to inspection at the shop lately occupied by
said bankrupt, No. 73 Plymouth Place, Chicago, Illinois.

THE EQUITABLE TRUST COMPANY
Receiver in Bankruptcy of the Estate of James McKinney."


Chicago Daily Tribune, 3 Feb 1903 p. 11

" New Incorporations. . . .
The McKinney and Galloway company, Chicago: capital, $2,500; printing, publishing and engraving:
incorporators, James McKinney, Patrick J. McKinney, and Arthur Stern."

Chicago Daily Tribune, Feb 27, 1912; p. 19;

"NOTICE --
By virtue of an order entered by the Probate Court of Cook County, Illinois, on the 20th day of
February, A. D. 1912, I, Emma McKinney as administratrix of the estate of James McKinney,
deceased, have this day sold to Robert Mowat, all the right, title, and interest of said estate
in and to the goods and chattels used by said decedent under the name of James McKinney
& Co., in the conduct of a Printing Business, at 618 Sherman st., Chicago, Illinois.

EMMA McKINNEY
Administratrix Estate of James McKinney, deceased.
Dated, Chicago, Feb. 21, 1912."

Richard Hatch
Posts: 1955
Joined: January 17th, 2008, 12:00 pm
Location: Providence, Utah
Contact:

Re: ERDNASE

Postby Richard Hatch » February 7th, 2008, 4:19 pm

Yeah, it would sure be interesting to get the inventory list from the McKinney bankruptcy, and find out who bought their stuff. Seems like the court records relating to it might still exist...

Bill Mullins
Posts: 5415
Joined: January 17th, 2008, 12:00 pm
Location: Huntsville, AL

Re: ERDNASE

Postby Bill Mullins » February 7th, 2008, 4:44 pm

And someone with time to kill in Washington DC might want to check this out:

"Frederick B. Duncan scrapbook on Marshall D. Smith, 1944-1966.

The scrapbook, compiled by Duncan, contains 85 pen and ink letters in the form of captioned cartoons by the Chicago painter Marshall D. Smith to Duncan. The art works illustrate the events of their friendship, especially their mutual love "of Chicago,... and anything afloat." Also included are four snaphots of paintings by Smith owned by Duncan, and a typescript and handwritten notes by Duncan about the cartoons and his friendship with Smith.

General Info: Unmicrofilmed; use requires an appointment and is limited to AAA's Washington, D.C. storage facility."

[From the WorldCat database of library catalogs; I assume that AAA is American Art Association or something like it]

Richard Hatch
Posts: 1955
Joined: January 17th, 2008, 12:00 pm
Location: Providence, Utah
Contact:

Re: ERDNASE

Postby Richard Hatch » February 7th, 2008, 8:37 pm

Bill, I spent a pleasant afternoon checking out the Marshall D. Smith scrapbook about two years ago. Made photocopies of a few of the illustrations. The only thing I really learned was Smith's middle name... No magical content or Erdnase related stuff. But you never know until you look!

User avatar
Richard Kaufman
Posts: 25640
Joined: July 18th, 2001, 12:00 pm
Favorite Magician: Theodore DeLand
Location: Washington DC
Contact:

Re: ERDNASE

Postby Richard Kaufman » May 12th, 2008, 9:11 pm

The deluxe DVD set of The Expert at the Card Table, performed by Allan Ackerman and with all the accompanying goodies, will sell for $129. A bargain considering the number of discs and the extras.
Click on the link at the top of this page to see more.
Subscribe today to Genii Magazine

George Olson
Posts: 979
Joined: January 17th, 2008, 12:00 pm
Location: Tigard, OR

Re: ERDNASE

Postby George Olson » May 15th, 2008, 11:11 am

Richard...

Which link?

Thanks,
GO

User avatar
Richard Kaufman
Posts: 25640
Joined: July 18th, 2001, 12:00 pm
Favorite Magician: Theodore DeLand
Location: Washington DC
Contact:

Re: ERDNASE

Postby Richard Kaufman » May 15th, 2008, 11:27 am

The banner at the top of this page. The ads rotate, so just click your refresh button a few times until the Houdini's ad comes up.
Subscribe today to Genii Magazine

Roger M.
Posts: 1507
Joined: January 17th, 2008, 12:00 pm

Re: ERDNASE

Postby Roger M. » May 15th, 2008, 3:29 pm

Ahhh yes, but do you have any specific dates you can tip us on Richard?
There's still no "BUY" button to push.

My money has been sitting in my PayPal account for months now ;)

User avatar
Richard Kaufman
Posts: 25640
Joined: July 18th, 2001, 12:00 pm
Favorite Magician: Theodore DeLand
Location: Washington DC
Contact:

Re: ERDNASE

Postby Richard Kaufman » May 15th, 2008, 4:32 pm

Geno is doing it the proper way: taking all the time he needs to make the best product he can. Not rushing it to market. And not taking any money until he gets very close to the release date. At least we now know exactly what's in it and what it's going to cost. To me, $129 is cheap to see Allan Ackerman perform and explain everything in The Expert at the Card Table.
Subscribe today to Genii Magazine

Bill Mullins
Posts: 5415
Joined: January 17th, 2008, 12:00 pm
Location: Huntsville, AL

Re: ERDNASE

Postby Bill Mullins » May 30th, 2008, 11:42 am

I see from the most recent issue of _Magic_ that Mike Caveney is releasing an updated version of Vernon's annotations to Erdnase, _Revelations_, this summer.

Jim Maloney
Posts: 708
Joined: July 23rd, 2001, 12:00 pm
Location: Central New Jersey
Contact:

Re: ERDNASE

Postby Jim Maloney » May 30th, 2008, 12:10 pm

Bill Mullins wrote:I see from the most recent issue of _Magic_ that Mike Caveney is releasing an updated version of Vernon's annotations to Erdnase, _Revelations_, this summer.

He's taking orders now, and it should be shipping by the end of June, according to the website.

-Jim
Books and Magazines for sale -- more than 200 items (Last updated January 10th, 2014. Link goes to public Google Doc.)

User avatar
Joe Naud
Posts: 329
Joined: March 11th, 2008, 10:27 pm
Favorite Magician: Vernon, Tamariz, Carney, DaOrtiz, Mac King
Location: Southern California

Re: ERDNASE

Postby Joe Naud » May 30th, 2008, 12:27 pm

This is great. Thanks so much for the link.
Joe

Green Skittle
Posts: 44
Joined: January 17th, 2008, 12:00 pm
Location: UK

Re: ERDNASE

Postby Green Skittle » May 30th, 2008, 1:43 pm

Excellent to see a Revelations reprint, thanks for the link.

User avatar
Joe Pecore
Posts: 1915
Joined: January 17th, 2008, 12:00 pm
Favorite Magician: Paul Harris
Location: Northern Virginia

Re: ERDNASE

Postby Joe Pecore » May 30th, 2008, 1:52 pm

Looks to be more then just a reprint. From the website:

This new, over-size book was triggered by the discovery of more than 160 long-lost photographs of Dai Vernons hands that were taken in 1961 specifically to illustrate this manuscript. It is as close as you will ever get to a personal session with the Professor.

Includes: A facsimile reproduction of the entire, original typed Revelation manuscript.

The entire text of The Expert at the Card Table with Vernons annotations inserted at the appropriate places illustrated with the newly discovered photos.

Plus more than 100 pages of added material including Vernons explanation (with photos) of Topping the Deck, Walter Scotts Second Deal and Double Belly Cut, the Ping Pong Shift, The Hop, Allen Kennedys legendary Center Deal and more.
Share your knowledge on the MagicPedia wiki.

User avatar
Richard Kaufman
Posts: 25640
Joined: July 18th, 2001, 12:00 pm
Favorite Magician: Theodore DeLand
Location: Washington DC
Contact:

Re: ERDNASE

Postby Richard Kaufman » May 30th, 2008, 1:56 pm

You'll understand more when you see Jamy's review in our July issue. There is a lot of new material added. The original Revelations text is no different than it was in the original publication years ago, however photos have now been added of Vernon doing many of these things, and lots of new material has been added (though none of it comes from the original Revelations manuscript).
Subscribe today to Genii Magazine

Jeff Pierce Magic
Posts: 669
Joined: January 17th, 2008, 12:00 pm
Location: Orlando, FL
Contact:

Re: ERDNASE

Postby Jeff Pierce Magic » June 9th, 2008, 7:51 pm

Lance Pierce wrote:
Vernon told the story several times of how he first came to know of the book. He stated that his father, who worked in the patent & copyright office in Canada, came home one day and told him that they'd received a book on gambling (the Erdnase book), but that he felt Dai was too young to read such as yet. Vernon said that he badgered his father about the book to no avail, but that shortly after, he saw the book on display in a local store and acquired it.

I hope I've remembered this with some accuracy; I'm going back some years here from when I heard the story. It does imply that the book was indeed submitted for copyright in Canada and that it wasn't so much "sold under the counter" (at least not where Vernon found it), but that it was carried rather openly.

Lance

Excuse me if this is just a rehash of a former topic.

On page 99 on "The Vernon Touch" Vernon recounts this story but also says that "about a month and a half later, he saw a copy of the book in a bookstore window. It was a stiff board with a large King of Hearts on it.

Since the King of Hearts cover came a couple of years later on a Drake copy, perhaps from 1905 on, perhaps the copy his father was talking about was not an original copy but a later Drake copy. Does anybody know if the 1905 Drake copies were copyrighted in Canada?

Jeff Pierce

Richard Hatch
Posts: 1955
Joined: January 17th, 2008, 12:00 pm
Location: Providence, Utah
Contact:

Re: ERDNASE

Postby Richard Hatch » June 9th, 2008, 11:40 pm

Vernon was mistaken in thinking that the book received at the copyright office was Erdnase, according to those who have looked into this over the years. Another plausible candidate for that book published in 1905 has been found. There is no Canadian copyright record of Erdnase (again, according to several different credible researchers who have looked into this over the years).

Geno Munari
Posts: 630
Joined: January 30th, 2008, 12:00 pm
Location: Las Vegas/Del Mar, CA
Contact:

Re: ERDNASE

Postby Geno Munari » July 12th, 2008, 12:38 pm

Here is a NEW STARTLING discovery on Erdnase and M.F. Andrews. Check out this link.

http://houdini.com/includes.cfm?page=press1.cfm

Roger M.
Posts: 1507
Joined: January 17th, 2008, 12:00 pm

Re: ERDNASE

Postby Roger M. » July 13th, 2008, 1:49 am

I'm sorry to dampen any high spirits which accompany this new Ackerman project, but I must register my disappointment and surprise at folks who still trumpet Andrews as Erdnase.

Sadly, as much as I'm a huge supporter of this project, and was one of the very first to pre-order ....it's hugely disappointing to read (yet again) about Milton Franklin Andrews being S.W. Erdnase.

Andrews wasn't Erdnase, plain and simple.

The evidence actually points AWAY in every direction from Andrews, and has done for a number of years now.

For such a high quality project all the way around, this is a definite slip in the area of the identity of Erdnase.

A very large disappointment indeed.....especially in light of ALL the newer and far higher quality evidence pointing to at least three other gentlemen, all of which are far more likely candidates for Mr. Erdnase than Andrews ever was, or ever will be.

Richard Hatch
Posts: 1955
Joined: January 17th, 2008, 12:00 pm
Location: Providence, Utah
Contact:

Re: ERDNASE

Postby Richard Hatch » July 13th, 2008, 2:40 am

Roger, I was also surprised to see the advance materials trumpeting the MFA theory as the though it were the definite solution, but Geno has assured me that he has not edited out my rather extensive criticism of that theory and the information on competing theories, particularly my own favorite(s)... I am hoping that this will help balance things, though I have not yet seen the interview with Bart Whaley or Martin Gardner nor had access to Whaley's new research on MFA, which I look forward to very much. Regardless, I am confident that Allan Ackerman's presentation of the technical material in Erdnase will be worthwhile, having seen him lecture on aspects of it.

Roger M.
Posts: 1507
Joined: January 17th, 2008, 12:00 pm

Re: ERDNASE

Postby Roger M. » July 13th, 2008, 10:34 am

RIchard, I'm relieved slightly to know that a dissenting voice will (hopefully) be on the record, and contained somewhere within the DVD package.

I just find it unusual that with this VERY THREAD being one of the finest sources of information on Erdnase available anywhere, that anybody could seriously continue to postulate Andrews as Erdnase.

I find the work of Dick Hatch and David Alexander to be FAR more realistic and complete than the now debunked work trying to point to Andrews.

There is SO MUCH wrong with the Andrews theory that ISN'T wrong with the theories put forth by Richard and David, and much of that is RIGHT HERE in this thread to read.

Anybody doing any serious Erdnase work cannot simply discount the information presented in this thread. To do so is the "slip" I referred to in my last post.
Also note that there are HUGE differences in physical descriptions between Erdnase and Andrews that are simply "overlooked" in these new proofs attempting to point to Andrews.

Folks just seem to forget that we've got documentation from a man WHO SAT WITH ERDNASE FOR HOURS!!.......and later provided a description of him. That description provided (by Smith) of Erdnase, and the one provided of Andrews couldn't be more different.

Here's to hoping that Dick's most impressive thoughts on the identity of Erdnase don't wind up on the cutting room floor.

As for the Ackerman material itself, I suspect it will be the finest ever seen on this work, and anticipate spending many hours working through the book with Alan.

In the end, I feel strongly enough about this topic to simply remove any and all offending material from the package which too strongly tries to sell "Andrews as Erdnase", and simply stick it at the back of a library shelf behind some books where it will remain likely for a very long time :)

Richard Evans
Posts: 75
Joined: January 17th, 2008, 12:00 pm
Location: UK

Re: ERDNASE

Postby Richard Evans » August 16th, 2008, 12:40 pm

I hope this isn't a naiive question, but I wondered whether there was any way of viewing this whole topic with all the users' names restored (the early parts have been anonymised since the last upgrade of the forum). Is there an archive of the thread somewhere?

Thanks in anticipation.

Chris Aguilar
Posts: 1861
Joined: January 17th, 2008, 12:00 pm
Location: Sacramento
Contact:

Re: ERDNASE

Postby Chris Aguilar » August 16th, 2008, 5:23 pm

Richard Evans wrote:I hope this isn't a naiive question, but I wondered whether there was any way of viewing this whole topic with all the users' names restored
Here you go.

Richard Evans
Posts: 75
Joined: January 17th, 2008, 12:00 pm
Location: UK

Re: ERDNASE

Postby Richard Evans » August 16th, 2008, 6:59 pm

Thanks, Chris.

Geno Munari
Posts: 630
Joined: January 30th, 2008, 12:00 pm
Location: Las Vegas/Del Mar, CA
Contact:

Re: ERDNASE

Postby Geno Munari » August 21st, 2008, 9:54 pm

Tuesday, August 19, 2008

Martin Gardner
750 Canadian Trails Dr.
Norman, OK 73072

Re: MFA Erdnase Nulda Petrie

Dear Martin;

I hope all is well with you. Enclosed is a copy of the San Francisco Call, Nov. 7, 1905. I have enlarged the section of the article so that you can read it. This new revelation is beyond a coincidence. Here is my theory.

Milton Franklin Andrews started this whole mystery by using an alias in the form of an anagram. S. W. Erdnase, although an imperfect anagram, it gives the user protection from his or her real identity, and also gives the user a frame of reference with which to recall a fictitious name. If he was bouncing from city to city, the use of anagrams kept the user from making a mistake and giving the wrong name to a person he may have previously associated.

Thus anagrams may be used as a memory tool. A name is often easier to remember if it is in the form of an anagram. For example, if you choose a pseudonym for Geno Munari, you might uses Oneg Iranum, or Moe Rainnier.

MFA used many aliases as his standard modus operandi; William P. Brush, William Curtis etc.

When Bessie Bouton was murdered the police questioned two bystanders (cited in the Colorado Springs Gazette Dec. 22, 1904) I have enclosed a copy for you also. One bystanders name was W.S. Maunder. An anagram of this, although not perfect, is S.W. Erdnase. Interesting, but perhaps coincidental.

But then in the Nov. 7, 1905 story, MFAs lady friend gave her name as Miss Edna Little. Compare that to the real name, Nulda Petrie, and another anagram. The (u) and (r)are not used and a (t) and (L) are added to make the name look correct.

The answer to the puzzle was right in front of our eyes. A simple anagram.

These findings by my research team Don Fineout and myself are completely independent of any other research. I think it is very strong evidence that affirms the wonderful work that Bart Whaley, Jeff Busby and yourself completed.

This is a direct link between MFA and Erdnase. All of your other strong evidence makes MFA the correct candidate. There is no other suspect that is even close.
One theory I have been thinking about is; who are the people that played in the game with Erdnase? Those that played in the game were probably fleeced. It stands to reason that these easy marks were people of prominence and/or had money. If you could identify one of these parties there is a chance that there may be a trail to a description of Erdnase. If one of these suckers was a businessman that could earn money in business, he or she may have had a background check completed on Erdnase. There even might be a picture taken with him. Read on!

I think there is a very great possibility that Erdnase played poker with Lucky Baldwin. Baldwin was an interesting businessman, gambler and racehorse owner. His land holdings in the San Gabriel Mountains reached about 46,000 acres, which later became Arcadia, Pasadena, Monrovia, Sierra Madre and San Marino, California. His ranch also became Santa Anita Racetrack. My wife Penny grew up in El Monte and Monrovia were Lucky Baldwin had a presence. For instance Baldwin Boulevard is one of the main streets in the area. Penny loves horses, as did Lucky Baldwin, and discovered the book about him, Lucky Baldwin, The story of Unconventional Success, by C.B. Glassock. I thank her for this find. Baldwin fits the prerequisites to play with Erdnase. He loved women, loved to gamble, ran with fast company and had plenty of cash. He also traveled via steamships and spent a great deal of time in San Francisco. Baldwin died in 1909.

In Glassocks book there is a picture of Baldwin at the poker table with three other players. The game is in Luckys private quarters in his Baldwin Hotel, San Francisco. Could one of those players be Erdnase? In my perspective one of them slightly does resemble M.F. Andrews.

I would like to release some of this information after I release the video, Expert at the Card Table. I think that you will be in the news again.

Give me a call if you like to discuss this new information.

Very warm wishes,

Geno Munari

Roger M.
Posts: 1507
Joined: January 17th, 2008, 12:00 pm

Re: ERDNASE

Postby Roger M. » August 21st, 2008, 11:57 pm

Everybody is welcome to have an opinion Geno, but please don't drastically alter the tone of the thread by declaring that you are on the cusp of confirming the actual identity of Erdnase, especially if it mirrors the Whaley/Gardner/Busby research findings.

It's STILL an ongoing search, and nobody knows the correct answer at this time.

Your claims, connections, and observations above are all quite interesting, but not even close to the final word.

Your claim that "there's no other suspect that's even close" is disturbing in that there has been an immense amount of research done, and the other three well known candidates are most definitely "close".

As mentioned above, you're obviously more than welcome to post your opinions, but refrain from declarations of pending success, as there are still others in this thread taking the entire process quite seriously.

There are also polite members of this thread who continue to refrain from pointing out the obvious errors the above trio of authors engaged in to make the crime fit the scene.

User avatar
Richard Kaufman
Posts: 25640
Joined: July 18th, 2001, 12:00 pm
Favorite Magician: Theodore DeLand
Location: Washington DC
Contact:

Re: ERDNASE

Postby Richard Kaufman » August 22nd, 2008, 12:02 am

I think Geno is taking it very seriously. His candidate has (and always has had) the one thing no other candidate has--a deck of cards in his hand. Despite the differences between Marshall Smith's recollection of what Erdnase looked like (and he couldn't even remember having illustrated the book at first), Geno may have done some new research.
More is yet to be revealed.
Subscribe today to Genii Magazine

Roger M.
Posts: 1507
Joined: January 17th, 2008, 12:00 pm

Re: ERDNASE

Postby Roger M. » August 22nd, 2008, 12:05 am

I support the search for Erdnase, and I encourage everybody to continue to treat this thread as the fine source of information it is.

Quality research doesn't permit "lines" to be drawn wherever the researcher wants to draw them to ensure that the final conclusion matches the desired outcome.

Roger M.
Posts: 1507
Joined: January 17th, 2008, 12:00 pm

Re: ERDNASE

Postby Roger M. » August 22nd, 2008, 12:10 am

The statement "no other candidate even comes close" essentially shoves [censored] in the faces of Richard Hatch, David Alexander, and Todd Karr.

M.D. Smith vividly recalled many very specific details once he was prodded into remembering the scene in the hotel room, it's human nature to recall the basic scene, and then to begin to recall and further fill in all the details.
It's how people remember things.

To just brush aside the fact that M.D. Smith stared Erdnase in the eyes and registered his appearance to memory, and was the only person we know for sure to have done that, could be referred to as "ignoring facts which point in a direction other than the one you want to go".

Deck of cards in the hands or not, the simple, indisputable fact is that MFA doesn't look at all like M.D. Smith recalled S.W. Erdnase looking like.
Sorry, but that's a research problem that's far more difficult to overcome than simply ignoring the fact that it exists.


Return to “General”