ERDNASE

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katterfelt0
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Re: ERDNASE

Postby katterfelt0 » May 10th, 2022, 3:29 pm

Jack Shalom wrote:
Or a Brazilian telling someone from Portugal they're speaking Portuguese Portuguese?


Look up "Portuguese Portuguese" in the Merriam-Webster dictionary. It doesn't exist. Yet "British English" does. Again, language is not a strictly consistent system of logical imposed rules.


Yessir. As mentioned previously in this thread, language is communication, and there are times when differentiating a speaker's country is useful. My computer often asks me which version of English I wish to use. :)

And in a nominal attempt to stay on topic; I carry my pocket-sized version of Erdnase nearly everywhere.
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Re: ERDNASE

Postby Richard Hatch » May 10th, 2022, 4:02 pm

magicfish wrote:I guess if I go to Spain I'll hear people speaking Spanish Spanish

It depends on where you go in Spain. The most widely spoken language is Castilian (castellano) which could be considered “Spanish Spanish” but there are also the distinct languages (not dialects) Basque and Catalan, and probably others I am not aware of, along with regional dialects. If L’Homme Masque wrote Erdnase, he likely spoke one or more of those, though I believe his performances were in French.

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Re: ERDNASE

Postby Zig Zagger » June 26th, 2022, 2:59 pm

German filmmaker Hans-Joachim Brucherseifer's docu-drama "The Expert at the Card Table - Looking for Erdnase" is finally ready for release.

It will be previewed and discussed in selected cinemas in Germany in the course of July. The global online premiere is scheduled for August 6. Streaming tickets will be available soon. Trailer and more information at https://www.erdnase-film.com/.
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Re: ERDNASE

Postby Roger M. » June 27th, 2022, 10:57 am

The movie looks fun, and I see some pretty big names from the Erdnase search community ... but the M.F.A. angle leaves me cold ... especially in light of the rather extensive evidence to the contrary.

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Re: ERDNASE

Postby Zig Zagger » July 10th, 2022, 1:43 pm

I had a chance to attend a preview of the film today with the young director being present. With a few interruptions, he has spent a total of six years on this project. Being a card magician and Erdnase aficionado has helped him to push this "labor of love" through a number of drawbacks, including COVID.

The film has much more to offer than just the M.F.A. angle. Several candidates are portrayed and discussed in a pleasing montage of lavishly reenacted scenes, obviously chosen for dramatic impact, and interviews with artifice experts like Jason England, Richard Turner, R. Paul Wilson, Bill Mullins, Guy Hollingworth, Chris Wasshuber and Laura London. (Juan Tamariz with his somewhat off-beat candidate L'Homme Masqué didn't make the final cut for various reasons.) The film ends with the interesting question whether all mysteries should be solved and whether finally identifying Erdnase as a mortal, unassuming man would take away much from the book and the myth. What do you think?

Obviously this film won't disclose any breaking news for the few buffs following the Erdnase thread here at the Forum, but it should be of interest to any magician, historian or mystery seeker. The few laypeople present at the preview--including two elderly ladies--found the story and background rather intriguing.

The film was produced in English. Total run time is 84 minutes. A later DVD might include longer excerpts from the interviews. (They all ran over 2,5 hours each.)

It seems there will be an exclusive preview at the Magic Castle on July 23, two weeks before the global streaming start on August 6. Some merchandise will be available by then, too.

Enjoy!
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Re: ERDNASE

Postby Jonathan Townsend » July 11th, 2022, 8:15 am

++ myth to balance the "how to" literature.
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Re: ERDNASE

Postby Bill Mullins » July 26th, 2022, 11:50 am

Name Reversal:
Amanda Lucas is George Lucas's daughter. In Attack of the Clones, she plays a character named Adnama.

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Re: ERDNASE

Postby Bill Mullins » July 26th, 2022, 11:51 am

Did anyone go to the Erdnase movie premiere at the Magic Castle last Saturday?

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Re: ERDNASE

Postby jwjmcd » August 3rd, 2022, 12:27 pm

I backed the movie via kickstarter and it dropped in the post this week.

Had a first watch and enjoyed it. Very slick and production values very high.

Nothing new to followers of this thread but did make some characters come alive .

Very enjoyable.

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Re: ERDNASE

Postby Dustin Stinett » August 6th, 2022, 2:11 pm

I just finished watching the movie, and not only did I find it interesting, but it is also beautifully done.

I have just one question for all the "Expert" experts here: why do you suppose that the candidate W.E. Sanders was left out? It cannot just be because David Alexander is dead, since Marty Demarest added so much work to him. Just curious.

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Re: ERDNASE

Postby Jack Shalom » August 6th, 2022, 4:18 pm

I haven't seen the film so only a guess: maybe Sanders was too persuasive a candidate and would detract from their favored horse?

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Re: ERDNASE

Postby Roger M. » August 8th, 2022, 10:04 pm

Considering one of the candidates they did choose to include, I'd not put too much stock in the depth of research that led to the selections they made.

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Re: ERDNASE

Postby Richard Kaufman » August 8th, 2022, 10:21 pm

Is this film dramatized around Milton Franklin Andrews?
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Re: ERDNASE

Postby Zig Zagger » August 9th, 2022, 12:18 pm

As far as I am concerned, there is no „favored horse“ in the movie. Several candidates are portrayed in elaborated scenes, and the experts speak at length about some pros and cons. This is a docudrama, folks, not a doctoral dissertation, let alone the „final word“ on Erdnase research in all its shades. At a German screening the director explained that leaving Sanders out was mainly a dramatic choice, for lack of a dramatic key scene that could have been reenacted.
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Re: ERDNASE

Postby Richard Kaufman » August 9th, 2022, 1:10 pm

I can think of several dramatic scenes that put Sanders closer than other candidates.
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Re: ERDNASE

Postby Richard Hatch » August 9th, 2022, 2:14 pm

The film makers have added a merchandise link to their site, with Erdnase inspired cards, a card clip and a close up pad currently available: https://www.erdnase-shop.com/merchandise

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Re: ERDNASE

Postby Roger M. » August 9th, 2022, 4:24 pm

Zig Zagger wrote:At a German screening the director explained that leaving Sanders out was mainly a dramatic choice, for lack of a dramatic key scene that could have been reenacted.

He choose to include Gallaway, a candidate with zero evidence to support his candidacy - over Sanders?
And did so because Sanders has no "drama" to reenact?

Further to Richards comment of "I can think of several dramatic scenes that put Sanders closer than other candidates" ...

    How about Sanders purchasing multiple decks of cards?
    How about Sanders performing magic tricks with playing cards, as we know he did on multiple occasions?
    How about Sanders gambling with his associates, as we know he did on multiple occasions?
    How about Sanders playing around with anagrams of his own name, which we know he did on multiple occasions?
    How about Sanders gambling at the Silver Bow Club in Butte, Montana, where common chips (in 1900) were the $100.00 variety?

All of the above passed over in exchange for the likes of Gallaway's completely empty bucket of evidence?
I watched the film, but as usual with Erdnase stories intended for the general public, I found too much pandering, and not enough serious examination of the available evidence ... and at least in Gallaway's case, no examination of actual evidence - because there is no actual evidence to be found!

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Re: ERDNASE

Postby Richard Kaufman » August 9th, 2022, 5:27 pm

Lets not forget shifting the type on the title page to form the name WE SANDERS.
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Re: ERDNASE

Postby David Ben » August 9th, 2022, 7:02 pm

You’re right, Richard. Shifting the type on the title page would have been ever so dramatic. Nice to know that your years with Stella Adler paid off :)

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Re: ERDNASE

Postby Jonathan Townsend » August 9th, 2022, 8:45 pm

How is the film as a film? Is there some resolution in the film? Roshamon?
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Re: ERDNASE

Postby Roger M. » August 9th, 2022, 11:14 pm

Jonathan Townsend wrote:How is the film as a film? Is there some resolution in the film? Roshamon?

The cinematography is well done ... but you already know how it ends.

We still don't have a clue who S.W. Erdnase really was, and as clock and calendar move ever forward, it seems the question may go eternally unanswered.

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Re: ERDNASE

Postby Bill Mullins » August 11th, 2022, 12:41 am

Chris Wasshuber reviews it in his new newsletter. He likes it fine, except for my contribution.

Damn. There goes my Oscar . . .

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Re: ERDNASE

Postby Roger M. » August 11th, 2022, 10:02 am

I put as much stock in Wasshubers film review as I do in his Erdnase research, which is to say no stock whatsoever.

Wasshuber can't see that the primary negative criticism of the film is the fact that the filmmaker choose to include him in it.

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Re: ERDNASE

Postby Dr. Solka » August 11th, 2022, 4:38 pm

"Against stupidity the very gods Themselves contend in vain."
Friedrich von Schiller "The Maid of Orleans", III,6 / Talbot; 1801

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Re: ERDNASE

Postby Jack Shalom » August 13th, 2022, 12:29 pm

This might be a little outside the scope of this thread, but I recently came across some interesting facts about Bart Whaley, the author, among other items, of The Man Who Knew Erdnase:

https://www.dignitymemorial.com/obituar ... ey-5624174

I had no idea about the military intelligence background.

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Re: ERDNASE

Postby Carlo Morpurgo » September 2nd, 2022, 7:50 am

Richard Kaufman wrote:I can think of several dramatic scenes that put Sanders closer than other candidates.


I totally agree. Admittedly, I followed the Erdnase saga only here and there, as an "outsider", and I am not too up to date on the nitty gritty details. From what I know however, it seems unfair that in the movie Sanders was completely left out, while Galloway and CW (and his absolute claims) were allowed some space. It clearly would have been better to conceive this as a mini series, like 3 episodes, given the amount of material that was discussed/researched.

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Re: ERDNASE

Postby Richard Evans » September 7th, 2022, 6:28 pm

I can't recall if this observation has been mentioned previously: MD Smith told Gardner that he recognised the lettering on the illustrations as his own handwriting but did not recognise the illustrations themselves. It seems unusual that the illustrations are numbered consecutively in his hand. Wouldn't the author have had more than 101 illustrations prepared, even if just by a few, to make sure he selected the best ones for inclusion alongside the text. Some may have worked better than others & he could have made choices based on what looked best. The fact that the illustrations were numbered consecutively by Smith suggests that the final pictures had already been decided on. It would have taken some trial and error sat alongside the illustrator to make sure angles and finder positions were correct, which lends weight to the suggests that photographs were used to ensure Smith had the correct pose/angle. Would the artist have numbered each figure individually after completing them all, or is it more realistic that this would have been done by the print shop?

I'd be interested to know from those who've done this such as Richard K - how easy is it to decide on the right angle/pose for an illustration, and how many illustrations/photographs would you expect to need to try out for a book of 101 drawings in order to get it right?

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Re: ERDNASE

Postby PressureFan » September 9th, 2022, 11:48 am

I saw a name reversal while looking for a move;
viewtopic.php?t=40013

Re: Alternatives for Marlo's Quick 3-Way sequence
Postby David Ben » 08/24/12 01:51 PM
Herb Zarrow had a lovely handling that dealt with this which he called "The Worraz Move" (Zarrow: A Lifetime of Magic, page 326).

Urban Dictionary has an interesting entry on it.

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Re: ERDNASE

Postby Bill Mullins » September 13th, 2022, 11:45 pm

Erdnase refers to himself as an "unlicked cub", defined here as "A loutish youth who has never been taught manners; from the tradition that a bear’s cub, when brought into the world, has no shape or symmetry until its mother licks it into form with her tongue; ill-trained, uncouth, and rude."

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Re: ERDNASE

Postby Richard Kaufman » September 14th, 2022, 4:30 pm

Richard Evans wrote:I can't recall if this observation has been mentioned previously: MD Smith told Gardner that he recognised the lettering on the illustrations as his own handwriting but did not recognise the illustrations themselves. It seems unusual that the illustrations are numbered consecutively in his hand. Wouldn't the author have had more than 101 illustrations prepared, even if just by a few, to make sure he selected the best ones for inclusion alongside the text. Some may have worked better than others & he could have made choices based on what looked best. The fact that the illustrations were numbered consecutively by Smith suggests that the final pictures had already been decided on. It would have taken some trial and error sat alongside the illustrator to make sure angles and finder positions were correct, which lends weight to the suggests that photographs were used to ensure Smith had the correct pose/angle. Would the artist have numbered each figure individually after completing them all, or is it more realistic that this would have been done by the print shop?

I'd be interested to know from those who've done this such as Richard K - how easy is it to decide on the right angle/pose for an illustration, and how many illustrations/photographs would you expect to need to try out for a book of 101 drawings in order to get it right?


I have never worked from sketching someone's hands, however it wouldn't alter my answer to your question:

1. In the 10,000 hands I drew from photos, I only had to retake a photo at a later date half a dozen times ... perhaps less.

2. As the author, or someone who was taking photos of the author's hands from which the illustrations would be drawn, I have never had to have an illustration redrawn. That includes my own work, and includes those who have drawn for me including Earle Oakes and Ton Onosaka. I don't include Joe Schmidt because he used no visual references whatsoever to make his drawings, and he didn't seem to make mistakes. People who require the artist to redraw photos don't know what they want in the first place. Earle Oakes told me that Louis Falanga wanted him to illustrate a book of Father Cyprian's magic--1,000 drawings, and that he would be expected to redraw several hundred if they turned out to be incorrect AT NO EXTRA PAY. Needless to say, Earle turned down the job. You don't take a job like that when it's obvious from the start that someone involved doesn't know what they are doing.

3. I never had to redraw any of my own illustrations because the photos were always correctly taken by me (that is, they showed what needed to be shown). This is one of my gifts: I know exactly what angle from which the photo should be taken. If there's even the tiniest bit of doubt at that moment, I might have a second photo taken from a different angle.

4. The text for any book I've worked on is always written in advance, with indications for photos in the text. All of that work is done ahead of time so you're not "shooting blind," and taking 600 photos when you're only going to use 200 (or whatever the number is). Also, why would anyone have illustrations done if they're not going to use them?
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Re: ERDNASE

Postby Richard Evans » September 14th, 2022, 6:24 pm

Thanks Richard - interesting!

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Re: ERDNASE

Postby Bob Coyne » September 14th, 2022, 11:10 pm

Bill Mullins wrote:Erdnase refers to himself as an "unlicked cub" ...

I've noticed that Erdnase uses quite a few terms (often metaphorically or idiomatically) related to outdoors/rural life (animals, hunting/shooting, farming, etc). I don't think you can draw strong conclusions from this alone, but it's interesting that it does fit well with Sanders (growing up in western Montana and being an outdoorsman).

- A self-satisfied UNLICKED CUB [animals]
- FLUSH THE QUARRY [hunting]
- Proficiency in TARGET PRACTICE is not the sole qualification of the TRAP SHOOTER. [shooting/guns]
- or curtail the ANNUAL CROP of suckers; [farm]
- at the dealer's customary GAIT. [horses/animals]
- performs his part with the SHEARS when the LAMBS come to market. [farm/animals]
- the trusting nature of a FLEDGLING [animals]
- Many experts with the gun who can nonchalantly ring up the bull's eye in a shooting gallery could not hit the side of a BARN in a duel. [shooting/guns]
- common HERD [animals]
- a PRACTICED HAND can locate and bring the cards... [practiced hand = ranch hand?]
- The dog, the PONY, the elephant, and even the PIG, have all been carefully trained... [animals]

And, of course, there's also the Divining Rod trick with the patter centered on prospecting (Sanders was a mining engineer and prospector). And significantly, the patter to the same trick touches on archaeological/historical preservation another strong concern of Sanders (he worked and wrote for the Montana Historical Society, adding artifacts of historical value to their collection)...but that's getting further afield from the outdoors theme.

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Re: ERDNASE

Postby Bill Mullins » September 22nd, 2022, 1:12 pm

A big list of word/name reversals, many of which are new to me:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Anadrome

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Re: ERDNASE

Postby JHostler » September 24th, 2022, 9:26 am

Late to the Miracle Factory ad, but the following descriptors are obviously intriguing:

- "Rare photos of the author performing moves from the book"
- "The author’s own annotations to The Expert at the Card Table"
- "Portraits of the author, film stills, family photos, letters, and rare memorabilia"
etc. etc.

Those bullets indicate that Karr has either found the author's family [in which case the story really is over] or that this candidate (and likely much of this evidence) is already well-known to the fraternity - i.e., that the annotations and photos might also be interpreted as those of a person who simply owned the book. Truly hoping for something more than another "Mystery of Al Capone's Vaults."
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Re: ERDNASE

Postby Joe Lyons » September 24th, 2022, 10:55 am

JHostler wrote: or that this candidate (and likely much of this evidence) is already well-known to the fraternity

I’d say J. N. Hilliard is fairly well known.

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Re: ERDNASE

Postby JHostler » September 24th, 2022, 11:22 am

Joe Lyons wrote:
JHostler wrote: or that this candidate (and likely much of this evidence) is already well-known to the fraternity

I’d say J. N. Hilliard is fairly well known.


Suppose I should've perused this thread further back. It's been a while since the JNH discussion!
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Re: ERDNASE

Postby Joe Lyons » September 24th, 2022, 11:31 am

JHostler wrote:
Joe Lyons wrote:
JHostler wrote: or that this candidate (and likely much of this evidence) is already well-known to the fraternity

I’d say J. N. Hilliard is fairly well known.


Suppose I should've perused this thread further back. It's been a while since the JNH discussion!

Yes, it’s also been a while since the book was offered for pre-order…

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Re: ERDNASE

Postby Richard Kaufman » September 24th, 2022, 11:38 am

Finding Hilliard's copy of Erdnase with handwritten notes only means that Hilliard was aware of the book and read it. He made notes in many of his books, and he wanted to include a chapter in Greater Magic titled "Paging Mr. Erdnase." David Ben has written that chapter for my new edition.
Photos of Hilliard apparently doing a few sleights from Erdnase? Maybe he was thinking of doing a book about Erdnase at some point.
I have thousands of pages of Hilliard's notes and notebooks. There is exactly ZERO evidence in those pages that Expert at the Card Table was in any way a preoccupation or something he had written.
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Re: ERDNASE

Postby Tom Sawyer » September 26th, 2022, 3:19 am

Hi All,

I have never seen Steve Forte’s 2020 book, and candidly, it is unlikely that I will ever purchase a copy, but now that the dust has settled, I wonder whether any of the enthusiasts here feel that the book has significantly reshaped their views on the Erdnase authorship controversies.

Posts by Bob Coyne (01 Mar 2020 13:40) and Bill Mullins (02 Mar 2020 16:01) seem to me to have muted some of the initial posts on this thread relating to Steve’s 2020 book.

And after April 2020, it looks to me that there has been only one post on this thread mentioning Steve, a post by Bill Mullins in February 2021. (This is based on a search for “Forte.”)

At least as long ago as 2018 (on this thread), Bill was saying that he was “not contending that Erdnase copied the moves from The 52 Wonders — I believe he independently invented them.” And from things Chris Wasshuber was saying at about the same time, he also believed that Erdnase invented them independently.

I think we are talking about (at least) The Longitudinal Shift and The S.W.E. Shift.

And, by the way, earlier posts on the Genii forum (starting in 2015, this thread and elsewhere) seem to touch on the question of whether the author of The 52 Wonders might have been Erdnase, and also on the question of whether that book might have influenced Erdnase.

Now as those who have looked at the Busby-Whaley book may recall, that book has a long chapter called “Sources & Inspirations” (which I think Jeff wrote). On 208 and 209 is a discussion of The Longitudinal Shift and The S.W.E. Shift.

Regarding the Longitudinal Shift, the writer (probably Jeff) kind of hints that this shift was a natural development from the Erdnase Two-Handed Shift, and he says, “The method may have been inspired by the second method for the Two-Handed Transformation, on pp. 152-153.”

As to The S.W.E. Shift, the writer quotes Erdnase himself as indicating that the method is almost the same as that of The Longitudinal Shift, the main difference apparently being that “the deck is held crosswise.”

My point? Seems quite reasonable to suppose (as has been suggested on this thread) that Erdnase never saw The 52 Wonders and that, as far as he was aware, he invented those two shifts.

I am not very knowledgeable about sleight-of-hand, but based on certain things others (e.g., Mullins, Coyne, Wasshuber, Busby, and probably others) have said, the above seems reasonable to my puny mind.

—Tom Sawyer
At least for the time being, I have taken down my S.W. Erdnase blog.

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Re: ERDNASE

Postby Jack Shalom » September 26th, 2022, 8:56 am

Re the JN Hilliard notes in his copy of Expert:
Do we know anything about the character of the notes? I would say if anything, the notes would disqualify him as the author unless they were proofreading notes. What author needs to take notes about his own work *in an already published book?*
Richard, other authors, any feelings about that?


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