ERDNASE

Discuss general aspects of Genii.
MagicbyAlfred
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Re: ERDNASE

Postby MagicbyAlfred » January 3rd, 2021, 11:27 am

Bob Coyne Wrote: "But it's not necessary to eliminate uncertainty in order to make a judgement."

Indeed. If it was necessary, we would have to throw out the entire civil judicial system, and start from scratch, at least in the United States, where jurors are instructed by the judge to find the defendant liable if they find that, based on the evidence, it is "more likely than not" (i.e. 51%) that the defendant committed the wrongful act and it caused harm to the plaintiff.

As to Sauerweb's cavalier dismissal of the evidence pointing to Sanders, compiled over decades, through exhaustive research and profiling by some brilliant people, as nothing more than "coincidence," I wonder if he has read Bob Coyne's Textual Analysis in its entirety, along with two very important articles re Erdnase/Sanders that appeared in Genii in January 2000 (David Alexander) and September 2011 (Marty Demarest), respectively.

Brad Henderson
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Re: ERDNASE

Postby Brad Henderson » January 3rd, 2021, 1:22 pm

I’ve read the exact same defense by Qanon types who are convinced in their conspiracy theories. Even down to the ‘do you own research’ angle.

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Re: ERDNASE

Postby Brad Henderson » January 3rd, 2021, 1:25 pm

Bob - yes you can sometimes identify someone without seeing them by their voice. And you can also just as likely get the identification wrong, especially when you are emotionally predisposed to want to to believe that is the person to whom you are talking.

Just as correlation doesn’t equal causation, merely finding parallels is not proof of anything. You can acknowledge the existence of real scholarship and still recognize that bible codes and qanon are [censored].

You can do better

The question is, will you?

MagicbyAlfred
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Re: ERDNASE

Postby MagicbyAlfred » January 3rd, 2021, 2:08 pm

Are we then to believe that the anecdotal and undocumented proclamation, "I've read the exact same defense by Qanon types who are convinced in their conspiracy theories," constitutes legitimate "scholarship"?

Bob Coyne
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Re: ERDNASE

Postby Bob Coyne » January 3rd, 2021, 3:43 pm

Brad Henderson wrote:Bob - yes you can sometimes identify someone without seeing them by their voice. And you can also just as likely get the identification wrong, especially when you are emotionally predisposed to want to to believe that is the person to whom you are talking.

Just as correlation doesn’t equal causation, merely finding parallels is not proof of anything. You can acknowledge the existence of real scholarship and still recognize that bible codes and qanon are [censored].

Most judgements are qualitative, not quantitatively derived. And we certainly don't normally require "proof" to make those judgements. In my example of identifying a voice of a person you can't see, you claim "you can also JUST AS LIKELY get the identification wrong..." Well, that depends on various factors (who is speaking, how well you know them, the clarity of the sound, etc). But, even assuming you get it wrong half the time in a give scenario, that's still a HUGE level of positive identification and significance vs mere chance. i.e. you've reduced the probabilities from one out of millions (i.e. pure chance) to fifty-fifty. And that is especially relevant if it's combined with other evidence (as is the case with Sanders).

As an aside, you're asserting that I'm somehow predisposed to believe that Erdnase is Sanders (confirmation bias etc). Two points on that. First off, I'm primarily claiming that the data I've identified and structured provides a basis for others to make their own judgements. It has nothing to do with me. Secondly, I didnt approach this with confirmation bias. Instead, I was curious about Sanders and noticed the textual similarities at first through reading Sanders' writing. In doing so, various things jumped out at me. I then decided it was worthwhile collecting them more methodically in order to have more examples to make a more considered judgement.

btw, the same iterative approach (noticing => collecting => analyzing) applies in many domains. For example let's say you hear a song that sounds like another. You might then listen to them side-by-side and figure out why they sound alike (chord progression, harmonies, lyrical content, melodic contour, etc). So that's analogous to identifying the word choice, syntactic patterns, metaphors, thematic elements, etc in textual examples. And, of course, just because one song sounds like another, doesn't mean that they were written or sung by the same person or even that one influenced the other, but it increases the odds of that. But that's a separate matter. The first thing to determine is whether they in fact are similar and how.

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Re: ERDNASE

Postby Bob Coyne » January 4th, 2021, 4:46 pm

I just got email that The Man Who Was Erdnase is now available digitally at Lybrary.com. It's a very interesting and informative book even if you don't share its conclusions that Milton Franklin Andrews was Erdnase.

https://www.lybrary.com/the-man-who-was ... 24114.html

Bill Mullins
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Re: ERDNASE

Postby Bill Mullins » January 4th, 2021, 6:41 pm

$45 for a PDF? I wonder who gets royalties (besides Chris) -- all three authors are deceased.

Actionjack
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Re: ERDNASE

Postby Actionjack » January 4th, 2021, 11:10 pm

During the holidays I ordered a copy of Marty Demarests's article in the Montana Historical Society magazine, Montana. I finally got around to reading the article and found it very interesting. I know much of the information has been discussed here but it seemed to have additional supporting information than I recall from just reading this entire thread. On a side note, I was very impressed with the customer service I received from the staff of the Montana Historical Society and the quality of the publication itself. I love western history and may have to subscribe in the future.

https://app.mt.gov/shop/mhsstore/mt-mag ... 013-winter

Bob Coyne
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Re: ERDNASE

Postby Bob Coyne » January 5th, 2021, 9:01 am

Yes, I agree! That's a great article. And as you say, it contains some interesting information not included in his Genii article (or in this thread). In addition to some Sanders-specific info not detailed elsewhere, there's quite a bit about the gambling culture in Montana (and the West more generally) at the time.

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Re: ERDNASE

Postby Actionjack » January 17th, 2021, 4:46 pm

I am currently reading Phantoms of the Card Table by David Britland and Gazzo. There is a chapter on Erdnase that I just finished. I forgot about the theory put forth by Jerry Sadowitz that Robert Frederick Foster, who authored The Complete Hoyle, may have ghost authored with Milton Franklin Andrews. I went back and did not see that this theory gain much traction throughout this thread. Has there been anything more current or is it a dead horse? The chapter I am referring to states, "Jerry Sadowitz has uncovered other information that links the two men and is convinced that Foster is the key that will unlock the Erdnase mystery."

Roger M.
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Re: ERDNASE

Postby Roger M. » January 17th, 2021, 10:38 pm

There may be the possibility of a connection, but only if you believe Milton Franklin Andrews is a viable candidate for Erdnase.
A lot of folks have written off Milton completely as an Erdnase candidate for a variety of reasons, most of which were either first expressed, or were reported in this very thread.

That said, when it comes to the identity of Erdnase, nothing is ever completely off the table.

Bill Mullins
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Re: ERDNASE

Postby Bill Mullins » January 18th, 2021, 12:02 am

Actionjack wrote:I am currently reading Phantoms of the Card Table by David Britland and Gazzo.


Are you aware of the new edition?

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Re: ERDNASE

Postby Actionjack » January 18th, 2021, 9:59 pm

Bill I was lucky enough to get that for Christmas! I've perused it but haven't delved into it seriously. That book is gonna take some time to absorb.

Richard Hatch
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Re: ERDNASE

Postby Richard Hatch » January 21st, 2021, 10:56 pm

Chris Wasshuber has just published a digital version of my December 1999 MAGIC article, "Searching for Erdnase", which is basically the talk I gave at the 1999 Los Angeles Conference on Magic History, just prior to David Alexander's amazing presentation revealing his theory of W. E. Sanders as Erdnase. I've added a short introduction about how my talk and my interest in this topic came to be. https://www.lybrary.com/searching-for-erdnase-p-924147.html

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Re: ERDNASE

Postby Bill Mullins » February 1st, 2021, 5:52 pm

Back when Steve Forte's magnum opus came out, I saw some speculation that it was so revolutionary that it might push Expert aside in the pantheon of essential sleight-of-hand texts, so much so that one could expect the collector value of the book to fall.

Last Saturday, Potter & Potter sold a copy for $9500 ($11,400 with premium), so it hasn't crashed yet.

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Re: ERDNASE

Postby Richard Hatch » March 14th, 2021, 7:53 pm

More thoughts on Erdnase from my interview last December with Alex Romanoff:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=i32nZ9lyTBY

Bob Coyne
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Re: ERDNASE

Postby Bob Coyne » March 15th, 2021, 10:13 am

Richard, Thanks for posting that video. Very interesting about the frontispiece photo of The Man who Was Erdnase possibly being of Pratt's brother! I agree the nose doesn't seem match at all with the morgue picture of the actual Andrews. And also interesting about the other inconsistencies/lies in Pratt's assertions.

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Re: ERDNASE

Postby Bill Mullins » March 18th, 2021, 4:42 pm

I'm not sure this is a good deal.

David Ben
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Re: ERDNASE

Postby David Ben » March 18th, 2021, 6:47 pm

Except for the fact that it once belonged to Erdnase.

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Re: ERDNASE

Postby Zig Zagger » March 18th, 2021, 7:13 pm

Then we may even have his fingerprints on the taping! :D
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chetday
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Re: ERDNASE

Postby chetday » March 20th, 2021, 9:35 am

Zig Zagger wrote:Then we may even have his fingerprints on the taping! :D

Or, even better, his DNA.

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Richard Kaufman
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Re: ERDNASE

Postby Richard Kaufman » March 20th, 2021, 10:53 am

David Ben wrote:Except for the fact that it once belonged to Erdnase.


Okay, I'll bite. Would you care to elaborate?
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Roger M.
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Re: ERDNASE

Postby Roger M. » March 22nd, 2021, 10:31 am

I thought David was kidding?
David supports E.S. Andrews quite strongly as his candidate ... so maybe there's an E.S. Andrews connection to this book sale?

Joe Lyons
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Re: ERDNASE

Postby Joe Lyons » March 22nd, 2021, 12:04 pm

I think David meant that if the book was really published in 1902, as an author Erdnase might have had that specific book in his possession as he was trying to sell them.

Bill Mullins
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Re: ERDNASE

Postby Bill Mullins » March 22nd, 2021, 4:21 pm

Three years ago I posted about research into the antecedents of Shakespeare. There's a new article on the researcher, Dennis McCarthy, and where his investigations have lead. The discussions of similar phrases and wording appearing in different works should be familiar here.

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Richard Kaufman
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Re: ERDNASE

Postby Richard Kaufman » March 22nd, 2021, 4:57 pm

Paywall.
Subscribe today to Genii Magazine

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Marco Pusterla
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Re: ERDNASE

Postby Marco Pusterla » March 22nd, 2021, 5:56 pm

The copy for sale, linked above by Bill, is a reprint from between 1918 and 1930... with sellotape to keep the covers in place (and as the source for the joke about fingerprints and DNA) for which the seller is asking a price way over any market value... Here you can see more pictures. The bookseller (in Canada) has a very low rating and the book is a K. C. Card Co. print, definitely not a first edition as stated... The joke is lost on me :(
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David Ben
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Re: ERDNASE

Postby David Ben » March 22nd, 2021, 8:14 pm

It was a joke and no, Marco, we are not going to explain it to you. :)

Bill Mullins
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Re: ERDNASE

Postby Bill Mullins » March 22nd, 2021, 11:59 pm

Richard Kaufman wrote:Paywall.

Boston Globe lets you have 1 freebie a month, I think. If you'er at the limit, you can try:
wait a month
dump your cookies and try again
open a new "incognito" window in your browser,
Open a different browser.
Open a differen computer, or your phone.

Bob Coyne
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Re: ERDNASE

Postby Bob Coyne » March 23rd, 2021, 12:04 am

Bill Mullins wrote:
Richard Kaufman wrote:Paywall.

Boston Globe lets you have 1 freebie a month, I think. If you'er at the limit, you can try:
wait a month
dump your cookies and try again
open a new "incognito" window in your browser,
Open a different browser.
Open a differen computer, or your phone.

Here's a (non-paywall) link to McCarthy's textual correspondences between Thomas North and Shakespeare. The Boston Globe article references some of these along with general background about McCarthy's research into North.

https://sirthomasnorth.com/2021/03/21/s ... -the-pics/

It's important to be aware that North's writing (primarily his translation of Plutarch's Lives) has long been known to be source material for various Shakespeare's plays. What's new is that McCarthy has found text from North's unpublished writings that also appear in the plays. So his thesis is that North was more than just textual source but instead was responsible for writing early drafts of the plays (converting his own prose into verse and drama) that Shakespeare then put on stage (as a sort of play broker).

Roger M.
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Re: ERDNASE

Postby Roger M. » April 15th, 2021, 6:41 pm

Just popped by the Miracle Factory website to check on the status of Todd's upcoming two volume Erdnase set ... and (unfortunately) it's still listed as "coming soon".

Granted it's really only been "coming soon" since the summer of 2020 ... but I won't put my order in until "coming soon" changes to "available now" (although I'll definitely put an order in once the book is released).

Has anybody acquired any recent updates, anecdotal or otherwise on the timeline for this books release?

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Re: ERDNASE

Postby Jason England » April 16th, 2021, 12:19 am

Marco Pusterla wrote:The copy for sale, linked above by Bill, is a reprint from between 1918 and 1930...


Even later. I don't think KC was printing copies until the mid-40s.

Jason

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Re: ERDNASE

Postby Bill Mullins » April 30th, 2021, 6:49 pm

Name Reversals ---

In the Jul 1913 issue of The Sphinx, a trick is credited to "Pejaie Senrab". For other reasons, I had occasion to research him. He was Philip J. Barnes, the 25 year old son of a banker in Minneapolis.

The same reversal (Barnes -> Senrab) was used by others. Billy Senrab ran the Senrab shows in vaudeville at about the same time.


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