Hofzinser´s Bottom Palm

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Sebastian B
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Hofzinser´s Bottom Palm

Postby Sebastian B » December 5th, 2018, 3:26 pm

Hi,
Has anyone on the genii forum read and worked on the Hofzinser´s bottom palm described on p.46-47 in Magic Christians wonderfull book Non Plus ultra: Hofzinser´s Card artistry? I am bit embarrassed to say it, but i don´t think that i understand the move, as i read and understand it the ring and middle fingers of the left hand does all the work. But what i don´t understand is how the card is pivoted into the left hand palm. I would appreciate any advice on the palm.

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Richard Kaufman
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Re: Hofzinser´s Bottom Palm

Postby Richard Kaufman » December 5th, 2018, 8:19 pm

The left fingers do nothing. In fact, no fingers do anything. The card pivots into the left palm as the right hand moves the deck to the right.
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Re: Hofzinser´s Bottom Palm

Postby Sebastian B » December 6th, 2018, 1:20 am

Thank you Richard for answering. In The Expert card Technique by Braue and Hugard, the right index finger on the left side of the deck plays a crucial part in making the bottom card move into the left hand. But this doesn’t happen in Mr Christian’s description, I have to go back to the description and read what I am missing. :roll:

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Re: Hofzinser´s Bottom Palm

Postby performer » December 6th, 2018, 8:51 am

I do this move all the time but not the Christian version. I think I got it from the Cy Endfield book written by Ganson. My right little finger contacts the right hand upper corner of the card or cards to be palmed and I simply move the deck back towards myself and the card pivots. The left inner corner of the card presses against the heel of the thumb and pivots against it. I should mention that the deck protrudes from my left hand quite a bit.

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Re: Hofzinser´s Bottom Palm

Postby Sebastian B » December 6th, 2018, 11:08 am

Thank you for ansswering Performer. So the pressure Points are between the inner diagonal corner and the upper right corner, thank you.

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Re: Hofzinser´s Bottom Palm

Postby Richard Kaufman » December 6th, 2018, 1:10 pm

Mark's description is not the Hofzinser Bottom Palm. Right first finger (deck is held in Biddle Grip) is just over the outer left corner. There is a break above the bottom card (or cards). As the right hand moves the deck to the right, the card(s) pivot between the right first finger and the left pinky.
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Re: Hofzinser´s Bottom Palm

Postby performer » December 6th, 2018, 1:43 pm

I just checked. I seem to be doing the ERDNASE bottom palm. I might have known that Erdnase would show up somehow. I got it from the Paul Le Paul book rather than the Cy Endfield book although Endfied has a method in there. He at least says he is using the Hofzinser palm. I far prefer the Paul Le Paul/ Erdnase one. Much easier to do for a start.

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Re: Hofzinser´s Bottom Palm

Postby Sebastian B » December 6th, 2018, 2:04 pm

The Hofzinser bottom palm described by Magic Christian differs from the Hugard and Braue. In the Hugard and Braues version the right index finger plays an important role. In the Magic Christian’s version it isn’t used to pivot the card/cards.

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Re: Hofzinser´s Bottom Palm

Postby performer » December 6th, 2018, 2:18 pm

The bottom palm described by Paul Le Paul is described as an "Improved Erdnase Bottom Palm" although I am not sure what the improvement is. However, before I learned it I invented my own bottom palm which is the easiest of them all. Mind you, it is also the most unnatural of them all but that merely means you cannot have your cake and eat it.

As I write this I have just realised that although I have been doing the bottom palm for my entire life I have never used it for a single trick! That means I may well be just as useless as everyone else here!

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Re: Hofzinser´s Bottom Palm

Postby Richard Kaufman » December 6th, 2018, 3:09 pm

It's nothing to do with Hugard and Braue: how I've described it is the way it's explained in Kartenkunste (Hofzinser's Card Magic) by Fisher.
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Re: Hofzinser´s Bottom Palm

Postby Sebastian B » December 6th, 2018, 3:37 pm

Yes Richard i understand that. My point is that, Hofzinser’s bottom palm is described whit a different technique in Hofzinser’s card artistry. The interesting thing is that according to Magic Christian “there is no exact description of the palming method Hofzinser used”. The palm you describe is the one I learnt as the Hofzinser’ Bottom palm, that’s why I was a bit surprised to read about a different technique in Hofzinser’s card artistry. What is frustrating me is that I have trouble getting a clear mental picture of how the palm is supposed to look. I must be getting old :)

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Re: Hofzinser´s Bottom Palm

Postby Richard Kaufman » December 6th, 2018, 5:03 pm

Which volume and which page?
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Re: Hofzinser´s Bottom Palm

Postby Sebastian B » December 6th, 2018, 5:05 pm

Volume II page 46-47.

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Re: Hofzinser´s Bottom Palm

Postby Richard Kaufman » December 6th, 2018, 7:05 pm

I've just read, and the description is perfectly clear to me. The card pivots between the right thumb (at the inner end) and the outermost crease of the second and third fingers (the outer right corner). You move the deck the deck forward SLIGHTLY as your left fingers simultaneously slide inward, as if stroking (or milking) the deck.

What is not clear is where Christian got the mechanics that he describes if "there is no exact description." Why is this guess any better than Ottokar Fischer's in Kartenkunste (that method can also be done with a stroking sort of action).

ALSO, the cards Hofzinser used are much smaller (both more narrow and shorter) than current decks. The sleight is considerably easier with smaller cards.
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Re: Hofzinser´s Bottom Palm

Postby Richard Kaufman » December 6th, 2018, 7:08 pm

Look on p.232, where a playing card of Hofzinser's is reproduced only slightly smaller than full size (or at full size).
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Re: Hofzinser´s Bottom Palm

Postby Jonathan Townsend » December 6th, 2018, 9:10 pm

Richard Kaufman wrote:ALSO, the cards Hofzinser used are much smaller (both more narrow and shorter) than current decks.
In Genii Magazine, November 2005 issue, on page 85 there's a photograph captioned "Some of Hofzinser's playing cards, reproduced actual size". The six cards each measure about 90mm long (poker sized) and 60mm wide (3-4mm narrower than poker sized). What were the dimensions of Hofzinser's cards?
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Richard Kaufman
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Re: Hofzinser´s Bottom Palm

Postby Richard Kaufman » December 6th, 2018, 9:17 pm

Is that a riddle?
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Re: Hofzinser´s Bottom Palm

Postby Jonathan Townsend » December 6th, 2018, 9:25 pm

I would like to know the correct length and width of Hofzinser's cards.
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Re: Hofzinser´s Bottom Palm

Postby Sebastian B » December 7th, 2018, 12:40 am

Thank you Richard, that’s the way I understood it as well, but got a bit confused. By the way, I did not meant to imply that Mr Christians description was In any way faulty. Me not being able understand the move properly lays certainly with me.

According to Magic Christian there is no exact description of how Hofzinser palmed cards (46-47). Mr Christians description of the palm is an educated guess using the Hofzinser’s letters as a template. What I find interesting is the Ottokar Fischer palm. Where did that information come from?

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Re: Hofzinser´s Bottom Palm

Postby Richard Kaufman » December 7th, 2018, 12:15 pm

Fisher's description likely came from a student of Hofzinser's. If you do both versions, you can see how they might get mixed up.
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