ERDNASE

Discuss general aspects of Genii.
observer
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Re: ERDNASE

Postby observer » December 29th, 2017, 1:53 pm

Brad Jeffers wrote: Originally it was about the book ...



Ah, yes ... my grandfather used to tell us kids about the early days of this thread, how he would read the latest posts by the flickering of a kerosene lamp after a hard day at the covered wagon factory ...

Scott Lane
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Re: ERDNASE

Postby Scott Lane » January 3rd, 2018, 10:29 pm

The true mystery in the world is the visible, not the invisible.

Oscar Wilde

http://www.swerdnase.net

Any Questions?

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Re: ERDNASE

Postby Jack Shalom » January 4th, 2018, 12:35 am

Wow. Gasp. Any manuscripts survive?

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Re: ERDNASE

Postby Richard Hatch » January 4th, 2018, 1:27 pm

Scott Lane wrote:The true mystery in the world is the visible, not the invisible.

Oscar Wilde

http://www.swerdnase.net

Any Questions?


Scott, thanks for sharing your research. Some very interesting stuff. A couple of quick questions: You mention that your great aunt, Edna Galloway, gave you the "Erdnase artifacts." Can you share those? I assume they will help establish your otherwise unsubstantiated claims connecting all the dots. Also, you apparently present a red cloth covered 176 [sic. I believe you meant 178] page Drake edition, missing some of the Legerdemain section, as the true first edition. I think most consider this a much later reprint, following the true first (green cloth, self published, 205 pages, 1902) and Drake's known earlier printings (starting in 1905 with 205 pages), and following their 190 page edition. Do you have any basis for thinking the Drake 178 page edition predates the generally regarded "self-published" 205 page edition?

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Re: ERDNASE

Postby Scott Lane » January 4th, 2018, 3:36 pm

Thank you for the questions. I don’t pretend to have all the answers. It is difficult to research Erdnase in a bubble because it is very tempting to connect dots to reach conclusions that you want to be true. I feel like it is a jigsaw puzzle with a couple of pieces gone and conjecture is needed to get to the next set of facts.That is why I am posting this on the Genii thread. I hope to get additional input from people that have also been researching this mystery.

I really appreciate the comments and I am not afraid to back off any of my assertions to get to the truth.

The artifacts that I received as a child include tintypes, boxes of photographs, silverware, dinnerware, poker chips, gambling devices and a whole bunch of family history and stories.

The original manuscript has not been found but that does not mean one doesn’t exist.

The reason I believe that the shorter version of EATCT may be the true first edition is because of the following:

Fred Drake advertised his books in the first issue of the Sphinx. If you look at the advertisements, each of the books have graphics on the cover. I have been collecting books from Drake publishing and have found that the older versions do not have the graphics as shown in the advertisements. It seems like the graphics were added in later versions of some the books. A couple of examples would be How to Tell Fortunes by Cards and Debater’s Manual.

I started to question this when I found a copy of Tricks With Coins with the red cover with only the cursive title and no graphics. This edition has the copyright holder listed as L. W. De Laurence. The later Drake versions published in 1902 with the graphics have the copyright holder listed as Frederick Drake.

L. W. De Laurence, I believe, was associated with Drake from around early 1900 to early 1902.

Like I stated earlier, I am reaching out for help from the Erdnase community to help verify the research and get comments on when I need to revise, enhance or abandon any particular theory.

If I am completely wrong, please do not get upset. I am not a professional researcher and truly respect the comments and opinions of everyone on this thread.

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Re: ERDNASE

Postby Jack Shalom » January 4th, 2018, 4:21 pm

Hard to know where to begin, but:

You make lots of statements about the syndicate of men who you think wrote the book. Is there any hard evidence to your conclusions that Andrews was the main writer and that Oliver Limerick was the stylistic polisher? Also, any evidence that Hilliar stole the manuscript? And, why the big upset by the mob? It wasn't that much of a bestseller was it? Before Vernon, who was going to read it but a few cranky magicians?

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Re: ERDNASE

Postby Scott Lane » January 4th, 2018, 9:39 pm

QUESTION:
You make lots of statements about the syndicate of men who you think wrote the book. Is there any hard evidence to your conclusions that Andrews was the main writer and that Oliver Limerick was the stylistic polisher? Also, any evidence that Hilliar stole the manuscript? And, why the big upset by the mob? It wasn't that much of a bestseller was it? Before Vernon, who was going to read it but a few cranky magicians?

ANSWER:
Excellent questions! Unless a signed manuscript or contract with the name of the author(s) is discovered it will always be a circumstantial argument. At this point, no document has been found. It is still a theory and nothing more. Even if the author signed their real name to the book there still can be questions concerning authorship. For example, the theories pertaining to Shakespeare’s works and the true authorship.

In regard to the Erdnase theory, the most popular candidates such as Milton Franklin Andrews and William Edgerton Sanders are all based on circumstantial evidence.

What I have tried to do is match up the known clues. The PowerPoint in my website tries to explain some of the circumstantial evidence that exists supporting the theory that James Andrews wrote the base gambling portion of EATCT. It all started from the stories passed down from my family and relatives that resided in Orange County, Indiana and the unbelievable gambling history that the area had for well over 100 years.

As for Dr Oliver Victor Limerick and W E S Fales roles in the book, the evidence pointed to them via the New York Press Club, Blue Pencil Club and the creators involved in the Thompson Street, Mott Street and 5th Ave gambling books. Many of the clues were pointed out by another Erdnase researcher (Robert Wilson) through leads tracked down from statements made by M. D. Smith and the writings of Benj. F. Cobb.

I will make a bullet point list and post it to this thread.

As for your comment concerning the “mob”. I wouldn't consider the owners/dealers and operators from French Lick and West Baden Springs a “mob’. They were a group of people (mostly related), who spanned many generations, that worked the clubs in the area and managed to win a LOT of money utilizing cheating techniques daily for many, many decades. The players were very wealthy and famous people from all over the world who visited the hotels/casinos to experience the medical “cure all” properties of the mineral springs in the area.

Why would they be mad? Imagine that you wrote a book and someone pirated it and sold it for many years with many, many printings and editions. It would be hard to forget and forgive.

Pertaining to the questions concerning the cranky old magicians, I think you are absolutely right! One could make a strong argument that if you take out the Preface and the Introduction from EATCT, it would be just another magic book. The thing that makes it stand out are the descriptions concerning the overhand and table shuffle systems that were described in detail. Over the years, finger positions and techniques have changed and improved but the basic foundations are relatively the same. (I hope that does not offend anyone!) Also, outside of Drake, the book was mostly sold by magic and novelty shops. Almost all known green first editions of EATCT have come from magician libraries.

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Re: ERDNASE

Postby Jack Shalom » January 4th, 2018, 10:18 pm

Thanks for your reply, Scott.

I'll echo Richard Hatch here, that there's a lot of interesting matter here. But...

In your presentation it is not clear a) what is pure conjecture, b) what you think is backed by circumstantial evidence (and what that is), and c) what you feel is based on hard evidence (and what that is). Without being clear on these differences within your presentation, it is impossible to begin to evaluate your theory.

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Re: ERDNASE

Postby Scott Lane » January 5th, 2018, 5:21 pm

Thank you for the suggestion! I will put something together to make it more readable and detail the source information. I should be able to post something early next week.

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Re: ERDNASE

Postby Pete McCabe » January 6th, 2018, 6:39 pm

Scott, this is all fantastically interesting.

On the last page of the Other Connections section, there's a photo of an article from The Blue Pencil Club Magazine that mentions TEATCT. Is there a readable scan of this paper?

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Re: ERDNASE

Postby Scott Lane » January 6th, 2018, 9:51 pm

Hi,

Thank you for the question! You will find the article at the following link:

https://books.google.com/books?id=QWY2A ... ne&f=false

The article is called “A Horrible State of Affairs” in the Blue Pencil Club Magazine May, 1900. You will find it on page 22. Make sure you are the right month and date because there are multiple page 22s found in the PDF.

It was written by Dr Oliver Victor Limerick (Billy Burgundy). It does not mention the manuscript by name.

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Re: ERDNASE

Postby Scott Lane » January 6th, 2018, 11:09 pm

Just to prepare you before you read “A Horrible State of Affairs”:

1. He is writing in Slang.

2. He is writing a story from “life”, meaning he is creating the story from actual events but making it look like fiction.

3. During this period in history, the Victorian Era, Bucket Shops were in full swing. The shops would bribe journalists and illustrators throughout the U.S. to put hidden messages in their stories and illustrations. The hidden coded messages were used to transmit information used to manipulate the stock market. It was very similar to the modern day Internet. The bucket shop owners would subscribe to the newspapers and monthly journal magazines, collate the information and be able to determine the number of shares being bought and sold and manipulate the stock prices and many times corner the market.

4. They would also transmit information via hidden codes using the telegraph.

5. As you learn the code, a whole new world opens up when you read newspapers, magazines and books from that timeframe.

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Re: ERDNASE

Postby Scott Lane » January 7th, 2018, 12:03 am

One more thing about secret codes. When the police searched Milton Franklin Andrews’ room they found a codebook. It is to bad that the book was not saved. The book probably had telegraph codes and / or the code that was used by the French Lick Dealers.

For example: The Lumberman’s telegraph code has one that is 1869. When you read 1869, you know the code, which means “your counter offer is accepted”.

The French Lick Dealers also had a code. Think of it as a way to describe gambling cheating techniques. If someone said: Use a Pull Down, Third Degree, Fifth Degree, Top. It would mean do a Calculated Center Deal with a Pull Down to Third Degree, Transfer to Fifth Degree and Top for the Deal.

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Brad Jeffers
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Re: ERDNASE

Postby Brad Jeffers » January 7th, 2018, 2:36 am

Pete McCabe wrote: On the last page of the Other Connections section, there's a photo of an article from The Blue Pencil Club Magazine that mentions TEATCT.

Where exactly in THIS ARTICLE is there any mention of TEATC?

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Re: ERDNASE

Postby Scott Lane » January 7th, 2018, 9:04 pm

Thank you for the question! The article does not specifically state the name of the manuscript. I change the PowerPoint storyboard to say, “the possible refuted first edition of EATCT”.

The slide can then be categorized as “conjecture”.

I only have about 20% of the PowerPoints published on the website.

It should be noted that the code utilized at the time for transmitting “bucket Shop” information usually always referred to other publications, and you had to cross reference to get to the full picture.

I will say that I strongly believe that Jim Kenny refers to James McKinney.

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Re: ERDNASE

Postby Jonathan Townsend » January 7th, 2018, 10:49 pm

Fun to get some new context for the book and people.

https://books.google.com/books?id=QWY2A ... il&f=false

Thanks
Mundus vult decipi -per Caleb Carr's story Killing Time

Tom Sawyer
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Re: ERDNASE

Postby Tom Sawyer » January 8th, 2018, 5:08 pm

Hi All,

Today I took down my S.W. Erdnase blog for the time being (for personal reasons).

I expect that this will be a temporary situation. (But I probably won’t put it back for at least six months.)

—Tom Sawyer

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Re: ERDNASE

Postby Scott Lane » January 8th, 2018, 11:49 pm

After going through the PowerPoint presentation swerdnase.net, to verify all the source documents, I am very comfortable saying that I have documents to support everything that is presented. The documents include, but are not limited to public ancestry records, draft registrations, newspaper articles, grave site information and documented family history.

The PowerPoint slide stating that the “G” represents Golden in the drawing given to Gardner by M. D. Smith is pure speculation and I will remove it from the PowerPoints.

Until a signed manuscript or contract is made public, authorship cannot be definitively attributed to any individual. However, the overall circumstantial evidence is abundant, especially when looked at from a holistic view.

The manuscript trail is also fraught with conjecture. I will revisit this as more PowerPoint slides are posted to the presentation.

The statements made about William Hilliar’s death being a murder and not a suicide will never be proven. Murder has no statute of limitations.

The remaining conjecture in the PowerPoints revolves around the true EATCT first editions. I do believe the evidence around L. W. DeLaurence copyright ownership and timeline supports the theory that the red cursive edition of T. Nelson Downs, Tricks with Coins, is the first U.S edition.

This does help to support the theory concerning the true first EATCT editions and understands that a second printing could of happened at a later date.

I am going to add more PowerPoint slides to the presentation with information regarding Mrs Oscar Minkley, Rosella Andrews, William Francis “Rufus” Steele and some amazing revelations concerning M. D. Smith.

Any questions?

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Re: ERDNASE

Postby Scott Lane » January 14th, 2018, 10:14 am

Quick Facts for James M (W) Andrews: Scott Edward Lane's Candidate for S. W. Erdnase

1. He was a known casino owner, dealer and expert card dealer.

2. His name is the correct backwards spelling.

3. He is the correct age and timeframe.

4. He would have known and done a lot of business with Edwin Hood and H. C. Evans.

5. He had associates and relatives that did business with James McKinney, Jamieson & Higgins, Drake and Galloway.

6. He had family ties to Kauffman (Cauffman), who is listed as a creditor in the McKinney bankruptcy files.

7. His one daughter married into the McKinney family.

8. His second daughter married into the Adams family who was related to the first wife of William Golden Mortimer. Mortimer was the first president of the Society of American Magicians and close friend of Dr William Elliott who contributed to New Era Card Tricks, invented the Back Palm and first identified the Mexican turnover move found in the Expert at the Card Table. He was also good friends of Houdini. Dr Elliott was known as the “Boston Kid” to the gamblers in the area.

9. His family was related to the Milton Franklin Andrews family.

10. His business associate, co-owner of the casino and family relative was related to Eva Howard, the woman killed by Milton Franklin Andrews.

11. His business associate, co-owner of the casino and family relative was related to Campbell, who Alvin Andrews hired as an attorney to represent Milton Franklin Andrews.

12. He was an associate of Dr Ellis who owned the nearby Claxton boarding house and casino and was related to William “Friday” Ellis, the man Milton Franklin tried to kill with a hammer.

13. He was related to Louis Dalrymple and had relatives that worked for The Puck, The Judge and Life Magazines.

14. He had associates that wrote and illustrated The Thompson Street and Mott Street Poker Club Books.

15. His brother owned a Lumber supply company and was an associate/relative of Benj. F Cobb, who wrote the books illustrated by M D Smith.

16. He was associated with the author of the Wizard of Oz. Martinka Magic Shop secretly helped with the special effects.

17. He was also the president of the First National Bank in Louisville and Chicago. The check written to M. D. Smith may have been written against that bank.

18. His relatives owned the shop across the street from the hotel where M D Smith met Erdnase to do the drawings.

19. He was related to people who had the same names as the aliases Milton Franklin Andrews and Eva Howard used during their troubles.

Any questions?

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Re: ERDNASE

Postby Bill Mullins » January 14th, 2018, 11:58 am

Can you elaborate on how he was related to Dalrymple?

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Re: ERDNASE

Postby Richard Hatch » January 14th, 2018, 1:13 pm

Scott Lane wrote:Quick Facts for James M (W) Andrews: Scott Edward Lane's Candidate for S. W. Erdnase

9. His family was related to the Milton Franklin Andrews family.

10. His business associate, co-owner of the casino and family relative was related to Eva Howard, the woman killed by Milton Franklin Andrews.

11. His business associate, co-owner of the casino and family relative was related to Campbell, who Alvin Andrews hired as an attorney to represent Milton Franklin Andrews.

12. He was an associate of Dr Ellis who owned the nearby Claxton boarding house and casino and was related to William “Friday” Ellis, the man Milton Franklin tried to kill with a hammer.

16. He was associated with the author of the Wizard of Oz. Martinka Magic Shop secretly helped with the special effects.

19. He was related to people who had the same names as the aliases Milton Franklin Andrews and Eva Howard used during their troubles.

Any questions?


I'm unclear on how the above points would advance James Andrews candidacy as author of EATCT. If MFA had nothing to do with the book, then they don't seem to help and would fall in the category of unrelated coincidences. Ditto any association with the author of the Wizard of Oz. (Also, I believe that equating Nelda Oliva with Eva Howard is very speculative, as detailed in TMWWE, though I don't see how it helps your case for James Andrews one way or the other).

Help me "connect the dots"!

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Re: ERDNASE

Postby Leonard Hevia » January 14th, 2018, 1:37 pm

Why would the president of a bank need the money, as Erdnase noted in the book? Of course, that might have been a lie on author's part. That's a high profile job, he took a risk publishing that book if he was the author.

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Re: ERDNASE

Postby Scott Lane » January 14th, 2018, 7:04 pm

Thank you for the questions! Unfortunately before I can comment further, I have to wait the results from the independent fact checkers.

swerdnase.net

Scott Edward Lane

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Re: ERDNASE

Postby Scott Lane » January 16th, 2018, 2:15 am

I will answer all questions in order:

Bill Mullins: Question: Can you elaborate on how he (James Andrew) was related to Dalrymple?

Answer: I need to give some context before I can post the family tree and answer your question.

M D Smith stated the person he met (Erdnase?) in the Chicago hotel room to do the TEATCT drawings declared he was related to Louis Dalrymple who illustrated for The Puck Magazine. At that time, he was also doing work for Benj. Franklin Cobb, illustrating the Jack Henderson series. The books Smith illustrated spanned from 1902 with Jack Henderson Down East to around 1905 with Jack Henderson Down South, Out West, On Tipping and On Experience. Benj F Cobb was related to Bert “Andrews” Cobb and, along with Dalrymple, also worked as an illustrator for the Puck Magazine.

The Jack Henderson books consist of a series of letters “From Life” written and addressed to “Billy”. It is speculated by researchers outside the magic community “Billy” refers to William E. S. Fales. I have a first edition and it is signed on the cover by W E S Fales. with an arrow pointing to the illustration of Jack Henderson. This is supporting evidence but certainly not conclusive.

We do know that W E S Fales and Dr Oliver Victor Limerick (Billy Burgundy) were founding members of the Blue Pencil Club and Cobb along with Kemble were club members.

The stories in the book, Jack Henderson Down East, contain events that actually happened in French Lick. If you study French Lick and West Baden Springs history you will recognize the stories. It is speculated that, “Down East” refers to French Lick Springs. One of the letters describes traveling by train from Chicago, through what seamed like total wilderness, arriving in town, which seemed more like New York City than the town of French Lick Springs.The porters were dressed in tuxedos and looked like “penguins”. The hotels were opulent and expensive. The restaurants were also high classed and expensive. One letter talked about the inflated tips that were expected by the porters and waiters. If you were scammed by one of the staff, there was nothing you could do about it because the employees, police and judges were all corrupt. Remember, the hotels and casinos were run by powerful politicians. The West Baden Springs hotel was a Republican stronghold (Sinclair) and the French Lick Springs hotel was a Democrat stronghold (Taggart). Both hotel owners secretly financed and supported illegal gambling by owning and running casinos throughout the valley. This created the famous rivalry, which was widely known and publicized in the area.

The theory states that Jack Henderson Down East refers to traveling “Down” from Chicago and ending up in the “East”: Down East.

At that time, two trains were running daily back and forth between Chicago and French Lick. The trains continued to Louisville, KY, the home of the Kentucky Derby. Many famous race horses were bred and/or stabled in the French Lick, West Baden Springs area.

So in a nutshell, M D Smith may (1) not have been completely upfront or (2) may have remembered incorrectly or (3) Met with an associate of Andrew.

There is evidence that M D Smith did not completely disclose his full family history. Gardner stated that Smith did not want to give his date of birth. This will be addressed at a later time.

First, I will provide Internet links that connect James M (W) Andrew to the Cobb Family and then I will show evidence that supports James Andrews may have been related to the mother of Louis Dalrymple.

This alone will not prove EATCT authorship but will help establish a pattern of facts supporting the case for authorship. I have been researching Erdnase since 1968 when my great aunt first gave me relevant information/artifacts. This year marks the fifty year mark, which is important to me because my great aunt asked me not to disclose some of the information for fifty years. I have collected a mountain of research and it will take time to explain. I broke down in 1992 when I published Gambling Card Sharps, How to Beat a Cheater. I limited the content to describing only some of the card work developed by the French Lick Dealers. The book was heavily edited prior to printing and only describes a small amount of the information passed down in the family, which spans five generations. It does have the distinction of being the first book on gambling slights with illustrations generated using a CAD (Computer Aided Design) software package.

Before I comment on family histories and the citizens of Orange County, Indiana, it must be noted the actual populations of the area were rather small. Most of the people in the area were there on vacation or for the medical quackery “cure all” benefits claimed by drinking the mineral spring water. “Pluto” water was marketed by the French Lick Springs hotel/casino owners and “Strudel” water was marketed by the West Baden Springs hotel/casino owners. This is why so many Doctors and Dentists established residency in the area. The mineral water also attracted visiting customers/patients from all over the world. Many of them famous actors, sports figures, politicians, writers, artists, musicians, business owners and criminals.

As time went by, it was hard for the citizens of the area to find husbands and wives who were not already related. When analyzing family histories, it seems everyone was related to everyone.

One more thing I need to explain prior to publishing the family tree.

James M Andrews

S W Erdnase = E S Andrews

Sorry to do this to everyone but ….
If you use the Bucket Shop code sometimes used in transcribing hidden names, instead of saying the letter, E and S, as in E S Andrews, pronounce the SOUND of the letters E and S.

That would put the name:
H(e) I(s) Andrews.

Perhaps that is why James Andrew dropped the JAM when reversing his name. Of course this is pure speculation but his business partner, Hiram Wells, was a bucket shop stock broker when they co-owned the French Lick Hotel.

I will post the relevant portion of the family tree diagram to the following website swerdnase.net.

In the next post, I will elaborate and explain the diagram and hopefully answer Bill Mullins’ question.

Scott Edward Lane

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Re: ERDNASE

Postby Scott Lane » January 16th, 2018, 8:34 pm

I have posted the beginning of the James M. Andrew family tree on swerdnase.net. As I was putting it together, I realized I am going to need a little better software package. For example, the family history I for the Galloway family is well over 300 typed written pages.

I did want to post the correct names for the James Andrews family so interested researchers can be sure they are starting in the right place.

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Re: ERDNASE

Postby performer » January 16th, 2018, 9:49 pm

I neither know nor care who the bloody hell Erdnase was but I must say you have presented a convincing case so far.

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Re: ERDNASE

Postby Scott Lane » January 16th, 2018, 11:02 pm

Thank you for the questions!

Question: Richard Hatch

I'm unclear on how the above points (9, 10, 11, 12, 16, 19) would advance James Andrews candidacy as author of EATCT. If MFA had nothing to do with the book, then they don't seem to help and would fall in the category of unrelated coincidences. Ditto any association with the author of the Wizard of Oz. (Also, I believe that equating Nelda Oliva with Eva Howard is very speculative, as detailed in TMWWE, though I don't see how it helps your case for James Andrews one way or the other).

Help me "connect the dots”!

Answer:

Wow! I hope I am interpreting your questions accurately. I will break each part down and try to answer line for line.

“I'm unclear on how the above points” (9, 10, 11, 12, 16, 19) “would advance James Andrews (sic) candidacy as author of EATCT.”

Definition:
Triangulation is a powerful technique that facilitates validation of data through cross verification from two or more sources. In particular, it refers to the application and combination of several research methods in the study of the same phenomenon.

I believe that triangulating data points helps to establish the probability of accuracy for any proposed fact. This would be the foundation of any research project.

These data that you are referring to helps to establish the accuracy of Bart Whaley, Martin Gardner and Jeff Busby’s research in The Man Who Was Erdnase and also helps to validate my research.

2. “If MFA had nothing to do with the book, then they” (Data Points) “don’t seem to help and would fall in the category of unrelated coincidences.”

I would not say that Milton Franklin Andrews had nothing to do with the book or the Erdnase story. MFA is a very important player. My research expands the research made in TMWWE. Although, I am proposing that MFA did NOT write the book but was related to the author, giving him advanced knowledge of the material to be published.

3. “Ditto any association with the author of the Wizard of Oz.”

It seems like you have drawn a conclusion, within your question, prior to me having a chance to respond to your question and present my rationale. That is the definition of research bias. I do believe that even the smallest “smidgen” of research bias can derail any research project.

4. “Also, I believe that equating Nelda Oliva with Eva Howard is very speculative, as detailed in TMWWE, though I don't see how it helps your case for James Andrews one way or the other.”

I am not sure how you can claim that eye witness testimony can be considered “speculative”. There are very few eye witnesses in this case and I would have a tendency to investigate each instance.

I will present much, much more concerning Eva Howard in future posts.

I hope this helps you “connect the dots”.

Scott Edward Lane

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Re: ERDNASE

Postby Bill Mullins » January 17th, 2018, 12:20 am

Scott -- I appreciate your evenhanded response to questions.

Just a note -- on your slide entitled "French Lick Springs Hotel", your last bullet refers to "Steele, the mother of Louis Dalrymple". Everything I've ever seen on the subject says that his mother's name was Adelia Seeley. My own research tends to confirm that.

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Re: ERDNASE

Postby Scott Lane » January 17th, 2018, 10:35 pm

Thank you for the question!

Question: Leonard Hevia

Why would the president of a bank need the money, as Erdnase noted in the book? Of course, that might have been a lie on author's part. That's a high profile job, he took a risk publishing that book if he was the author.

Answer:

This is a fantastic question! Most of the hotel/casino owners were bank presidents. Hiram E. Wells, co-owner of the French Lick Hotel/Casino with James M (W) Andrew, was a Stock Broker of the bucket shops and the treasurer of Orange County, IN. He was also president of the Citizens’ Bank and the president of the Stone City Bank. In fact, he was the largest stockholder of each of those banks. Remember, Hiram Wells was related to both Andrew and Cobb.

Lee W. Sinclair, owner of the West Baden Springs Hotel/Casino was the president of the State bank of Salem and the president of the West Baden Springs National Bank.

I believe that it facilitated in the stock market manipulation and possibly money laundering.

Erdnase did note, that he published the book because he “needed the money”. This is very possible because at that time, Andrews probably WAS a “reformed gambler”. This could have been the result of the West Baden Springs Hotel burning down in 1901 and being rebuilt by Sinclair, reopening in September 1902. Coincidentally (?), this was the same month William J Hillier suddenly left as editor of the Sphinx Magazine moving with his new wife not to far away from Jeffersonville, French Lick and West Baden Springs.

Scott Edward Lane

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Re: ERDNASE

Postby Scott Lane » January 18th, 2018, 6:43 pm

Thank you for the followup question!

Question: Bill Mullins

Just a note -- on your slide entitled "French Lick Springs Hotel", your last bullet refers to "Steele, the mother of Louis Dalrymple". Everything I've ever seen on the subject says that his mother's name was Adelia Seeley. My own research tends to confirm that.

Answer:

Wow! Thank you! I stand corrected. I will update the slide.

I have done extensive research on James Harte (Harto) and his wife and Steele is related to their family tree.

The research for Dalrymple started with a story “from life” that may have been referring to Louis Dalrymple and his first wife Carpenter. She married poor Louis and almost immediately filed for divorce and kept the house and $75 a month.

Louis Dalrymple then married into the Goode family where I thought I found a connection to the Steele family but this has not been fully researched so it is currently unproven.

I did find some members of the Steele family from Janesville, WI and related to the magician “Rufus” Steele. According to TMWWE, Rufus knew of the original EATCT manuscripts and said they were located in upper state New York “tied together with a string”. I have traced them to Albany, NY, the location of the Cobb burial crypt. The original land in that area, including the crypt location, was originaly owned by W E S Fales.

Interestingly, Rufus Steele’s family was located in the same place as our old friend M D Smith.

These are “dots” that are crying out for more research!

I have established, in previous posts, that James M Andrew IS related to the Cobb family, who did work for The Puck and Judge magazines.

This MAY put into question the validity/accuracy of M D Smith’s testimony concerning the Dalrymple relationship and the man he met in the hotel room to do the illustrations.

Remember, he was doing work for Cobb during the same timeframe when he met with the man in the hotel.

Scott Edward Lane

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Re: ERDNASE

Postby Scott Lane » January 20th, 2018, 3:03 pm

If anyone is interested, I put a couple of pictures of the Cobb Crypt at swerdnase.net.

Any Questions?

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Re: ERDNASE

Postby Scott Lane » January 21st, 2018, 5:36 am

Before I post more on the Andrews, Dalrymple, MFA, Campbell, Howard and Houdini connections I wanted to post this from Case Western Reserve University. It is an excerpt from the Encyclopedia of Cleveland and describes some early business connections between the Cobb and Andrews families:

Cobb and Andrews, Co.

COBB, ANDREWS & CO. was Cleveland's leading bookstore from the 1860s to the 1880s. It began as J. B. Cobb & Co. in 1852 when Junius Brutus Cobb and two of his brothers, Brutus Junius and Caius Cassius, bought the controlling interest in their half-brother, Moses Younglove's, bookstore.
The first store was at 36 Superior St. near what is now W. 9th St. In June 1861 the company moved to larger quarters at 241 Superior St., across the street from the present-day site of STOUFFER RENAISSANCE HOTEL.
In 1864 Junius Cobb opened a store in Chicago under the name Cobb, Pritchard & Co. Another Cobb brother, Lucius Marcius, also had a store in Chicago at that time, called Cobb's Library. (The rest of the "Roman" Cobbs were: Cassius Caius, Marcius Lucius, Marcia Lucia, and Lucia Marcia. There was also a brother named Daniel.)
The Cobb stores did well in Chicago until 1871, when the famous fire caused their destruction. The Cobbs tried to carry on for another year or two, but the fire loss was too great, so they quit Chicago to devote their energies to the Cleveland store.
In 1865 the company's name became Cobb, Andrews & Co. when Theodore Andrews, Caius Cobb's brother-in-law, joined the firm. Ten years later the store moved to 315-317 Euclid Ave., near E. 6th St., while the old store on Superior was kept as a "downtown" outlet.
On 2 May 1888, a local newspaper announced the sale of Cobb, Andrews & Co. to BURROWS Bros. Although six sons and nephews of the owners were employed by Cobb, Andrews & Co., none showed any interest in perpetuating the firm.

Any Questions?

Scott Edward Lane

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Re: ERDNASE

Postby Jack Shalom » January 23rd, 2018, 7:16 pm

I'm lost. Map, please?

Still have many questions about evidence vs. conjecture. We've seen lots of trees, time for the forest?

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Re: ERDNASE

Postby Carlo Morpurgo » January 23rd, 2018, 9:03 pm

Jack Shalom wrote:I'm lost. Map, please?

Still have many questions about evidence vs. conjecture. We've seen lots of trees, time for the forest?


If you have seen the trees, then you have the evidence. Some people can see the forest, or at least A forest, reading in between the lines, that is what makes them special. What do you expect, a video of the actual Erdnase writing the book?

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Re: ERDNASE

Postby Jack Shalom » January 23rd, 2018, 10:41 pm

Carlo Morpurgo wrote:
Jack Shalom wrote:I'm lost. Map, please?

Still have many questions about evidence vs. conjecture. We've seen lots of trees, time for the forest?


If you have seen the trees, then you have the evidence. Some people can see the forest, or at least A forest, reading in between the lines, that is what makes them special. What do you expect, a video of the actual Erdnase writing the book?


Carlo, there's a lot of ground between a 1) video, 2) convincing circumstantial and physical evidence and 3) an intriguing hypothesis. No one expects #1, and it's certainly fun to have #3; but I think most on this board are hoping at least #2 with regard to identifying Erdnase. It's still not clear to me what part of Scott's presentation is conjecture and what is hard evidence. Assessment of conjecture is necessarily subjective, but when conjectures start to be based on other unproven conjectures, hypotheses get less convincing.

Scott has so far presented excellent material describing the milieu in which Expert was written; but the actual details of the provenance and authorship of the book remain unclear. I think if you look at the kind of arguments put forth for other candidates, there is a constant attempt to try and pin down facts beyond conjecture that can help establish the identity.

I don't expect Scott to explain his case all at once, and I am merely expressing my eagerness to know more. If Scott does not have more than the aforementioned explanation of milieu, he'll still have succeeded in substantially advancing the solving of the mystery. But it's only human nature to ask, "got any more?"

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Re: ERDNASE

Postby Carlo Morpurgo » January 26th, 2018, 7:38 pm

Jack Shalom wrote:Carlo, there's a lot of ground between a 1) video, 2) convincing circumstantial and physical evidence and 3) an intriguing hypothesis. No one expects #1, and it's certainly fun to have #3; but I think most on this board are hoping at least #2 with regard to identifying Erdnase. It's still not clear to me what part of Scott's presentation is conjecture and what is hard evidence. Assessment of conjecture is necessarily subjective, but when conjectures start to be based on other unproven conjectures, hypotheses get less convincing.
"


How about wiping off the word "convincing". How about adopting the point of view that no one is trying to convince anyone. After all these years, I'd say thank God there is a half hair of evidence on which to try to build a castle, and having fun doing so. You make a theory you create possible leads and then you investigate those. Makes perfect sense to me. Throwing a constant "where is the hard evidence" is completely counterproductive, if not annoying (because we like to dream and speculate in the first place).

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Re: ERDNASE

Postby Bill Marquardt » January 30th, 2018, 7:05 pm

Forgive me for posting a non-contributory message, but I was just thinking how cool it would be if Erdnase and Jack the Ripper turned out to be the same person. Two mysteries solved at once some day, perhaps. I believe the chronology fits, assuming Jack emigrated to the States after his misdeeds in Whitechapel. Did he find a new and less violent way to pass the time?

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Re: ERDNASE

Postby Richard Kaufman » January 30th, 2018, 11:21 pm

I'm sorry, but if you are going to present someone as a candidate to have been S.W. Erdnase, then you're going to have to CONVINCE a lot of people. That's part of the deal.
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Re: ERDNASE

Postby Carlo Morpurgo » January 31st, 2018, 7:29 am

Richard Kaufman wrote:I'm sorry, but if you are going to present someone as a candidate to have been S.W. Erdnase, then you're going to have to CONVINCE a lot of people. That's part of the deal.


Well yes, ultimately that is the goal, ultimately. But one thing is to present convincing evidence another is to present a convincing theory.
A convincing theory is something that fits the scant evidence that is available, and that could lead to more leads and hard evidence (or it could lead to a different theory). Assuming that the investigator is not making absolute statements such as "I found who Erdnase is", I see no reason to continuously remind him that he needs to come by with hard evidence. That is the kind of "convincing" that I am talking about.

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Re: ERDNASE

Postby jkeyes1000 » January 31st, 2018, 1:33 pm

It is unreasonable to demand evidence that nobody has any reason to believe exists.

In cases like this, the author wished to remain pseudonymous, so the "burden of proof" needs to slack off.

If it happens to be found someday, that will be fine. But don't count on it, and don't insist on it.

Sometimes the best we can do is to speculate.

When someone challenges me to provide "hard evidence" for my argument, I tend to counter with a challenge to justify their presumption that it remains after a hundred years of neglect, or after a deliberate attempt to conceal it.


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