Search found 556 matches

by Bob Coyne
May 30th, 2019, 1:33 pm
Forum: General
Topic: ERDNASE
Replies: 7160
Views: 2132785

Re: ERDNASE

Another anagrammatic name: Salvador Dali was dubbed "Avida Dollars" by the poet Andre Breton in reference to the commercialization of his art and his lust for money.
by Bob Coyne
May 7th, 2019, 1:45 am
Forum: General
Topic: ERDNASE
Replies: 7160
Views: 2132785

Re: ERDNASE

This is consistent with most of his other manipulations of idiomatic language, such as "could not hit the side of a barn" (p. 23), "walk and stock" (p. 74), and "lightning don't strike in the same place often" (p. 79), which are usually incorporated into the text of Th...
by Bob Coyne
May 1st, 2019, 1:36 pm
Forum: Collector's Marketplace
Topic: WANTED - ARTANIS BOTTOM DEAL
Replies: 2
Views: 350

Re: WANTED - ARTANIS BOTTOM DEAL

If you're looking for the material (as opposed to the actual historical item as originally published), you can get it in digital form from Chris Wasshuber at lybrary.com. https://www.lybrary.com/artanis-bottom-deal-p-242.html
by Bob Coyne
April 9th, 2019, 3:37 pm
Forum: General
Topic: ERDNASE
Replies: 7160
Views: 2132785

Re: ERDNASE

Bill Mullins wrote:Another reverse-spelling pseudonym:

Comic book artist Will Eisner published some material under the name of Willis B. Rensie.

Good find, Bill! How many of these have you identified so far?
by Bob Coyne
March 17th, 2019, 11:57 pm
Forum: General
Topic: ERDNASE
Replies: 7160
Views: 2132785

Re: ERDNASE

How uncommon were those phrase/patterns at the time? Here's a finding for Twain on "moss-covered": I'm not sure I understand the relevance of the frequency of "moss-covered". That's only used by Erdnase, not Sanders, and not related to my comparison except for it's *meaning*, wh...
by Bob Coyne
March 17th, 2019, 5:15 pm
Forum: General
Topic: ERDNASE
Replies: 7160
Views: 2132785

Re: ERDNASE

Wait a minute, wasn't that PALMED OFF quote directly from Sanders material that Bob recently stumbled on? I thought it was. Yes, the "palmed off" quote is from that text. As I briefly mentioned in my initial post, the new Sanders' texts I found were in Vol 2 of Contributions to Historical...
by Bob Coyne
March 16th, 2019, 2:28 am
Forum: General
Topic: ERDNASE
Replies: 7160
Views: 2132785

Re: ERDNASE

Ok, fair enough. I should have said originally "he possibly alludes" since there's really no way to know if the literal connotation was an influence in his choice of that idiom or not. Though as I've tried to say all along, I think the main weakness in this example is not the link of the p...
by Bob Coyne
March 16th, 2019, 12:24 am
Forum: General
Topic: ERDNASE
Replies: 7160
Views: 2132785

Re: ERDNASE

If "palming" in the phrase "palming off" has the same meaning as "palm" in the-sleight-of hand sense, that would substantiate your argument. But the evidence doesn't support that. - The common usage in the 1895 newspapers don't show any significant usage of "palmi...
by Bob Coyne
March 13th, 2019, 10:57 am
Forum: General
Topic: ERDNASE
Replies: 7160
Views: 2132785

Re: ERDNASE

Bob. You are drawing connections for which there is no evidence. And palming off into a cup is not the same as palming off a painting as original. In the first case there is a correlation, in the second there isn’t. Words have lots of meanings. If you want to prove that these words in this order ar...
by Bob Coyne
March 13th, 2019, 12:28 am
Forum: General
Topic: ERDNASE
Replies: 7160
Views: 2132785

Re: ERDNASE

Bob. No one would ever say they palmed off the prediction into someone’s pocket. And even if they did - that isn’t congruent with the Act of misrepresentation at the heart of the phrases idiomatic use. Is this the hill on which you’ve chosen to die? Well, one of the examples I found used it in exac...
by Bob Coyne
March 12th, 2019, 11:03 pm
Forum: General
Topic: ERDNASE
Replies: 7160
Views: 2132785

Re: ERDNASE

A shot of vs a shot at. Photograph, liquor, or target. Different ideas. Shooting a photograph is likely a metaphorical extension of shooting a weapon (involves aiming some instrument at a target, triggering the shooting event). And perhaps "he shot the liquor down his throat" would be sim...
by Bob Coyne
March 12th, 2019, 10:14 pm
Forum: General
Topic: ERDNASE
Replies: 7160
Views: 2132785

Re: ERDNASE

... I think the literal connotation of "palm off" is most likely connected to the verb "palm" and hence refers to some variant of sleight of hand and, specifically, hiding in the PALM. To palm off upon or to palm off of ? While there may be some deception involved in both activi...
by Bob Coyne
March 12th, 2019, 9:15 pm
Forum: General
Topic: ERDNASE
Replies: 7160
Views: 2132785

Re: ERDNASE

The evidence (in the 1870 phrase book, modern blogs, and default assumptions based on the established meaning of "palming" on its own) points towards it being understood as referring to sleight of hand (covertly hiding something in the palm). The "evidence" you've mentioned isn'...
by Bob Coyne
March 11th, 2019, 1:07 pm
Forum: General
Topic: ERDNASE
Replies: 7160
Views: 2132785

Re: ERDNASE

When the only tool you have is a hammer everything looks like a nail. When your a magician, everything looks like a sleight. It could be. Or it could be that some people are aware of palming and connect the idiom to that meaning. The question is how many interpret it that way. So far I've asked thr...
by Bob Coyne
March 11th, 2019, 10:29 am
Forum: General
Topic: ERDNASE
Replies: 7160
Views: 2132785

Re: ERDNASE

The Sanders evidence looks more like Americanization of "fob off" Seems unlikely to me given that "palming" (irrespective of "palming off") has fairly well known meaning and will hence anchor the interpretation. Also, while "palm off" is not a common phrase, ...
by Bob Coyne
March 11th, 2019, 10:07 am
Forum: General
Topic: ERDNASE
Replies: 7160
Views: 2132785

Re: ERDNASE

Bob. You don’t seem capable of objectivity. You want to assume palming off has something to do with the sleight because it sounds like it might coming from your personal experience and desires. The idiom (as I pointed out early on) isn’t an accurate usage of the term if we want to believe it refers...
by Bob Coyne
March 11th, 2019, 12:21 am
Forum: General
Topic: ERDNASE
Replies: 7160
Views: 2132785

Re: ERDNASE

Not sure what you are arguing for with the phrase "palm off" in the erdnase text. To my eye the phrase appears inconsistently along with other phrasings of "palm" and a few instances of "skin". For example: Now it may be a matter of opinion, but we think it would appea...
by Bob Coyne
March 10th, 2019, 11:28 pm
Forum: General
Topic: ERDNASE
Replies: 7160
Views: 2132785

Re: ERDNASE

It doesn’t matter what moderns believe at all, because there is no reason for those beliefs to be considered reflective of anything beyond what moderns believe. We use tons of phrases the actual derivation thereof we don’t know. Just because someone thinks they know what it means today doesn’t mean...
by Bob Coyne
March 10th, 2019, 8:22 pm
Forum: General
Topic: ERDNASE
Replies: 7160
Views: 2132785

Re: ERDNASE

Thomas Baker born in England in 1837, died in Helena MT in 1919 . Definitely a real person. He edited the first daily newspaper in Montana, The Montana Post . That it is so easy to assume that articles which seem similar in style and vocabulary are written by the same person, when it can shown that...
by Bob Coyne
March 10th, 2019, 3:02 pm
Forum: General
Topic: ERDNASE
Replies: 7160
Views: 2132785

Re: ERDNASE

This is a fantastic find, Bob! It may have been possible that Sanders used the alias of Thomas Baker for other endeavours. After some more investigation, it looks like Thomas/Tom Baker was a real person...a newspaper person in Montana. So unless theres some reason to believe otherwise, it seems lik...
by Bob Coyne
March 10th, 2019, 11:41 am
Forum: General
Topic: ERDNASE
Replies: 7160
Views: 2132785

Re: ERDNASE

It doesn’t matter what modern people think. What matters is what people in sanders time thought. They're correlated. So it's a proxy. In fact, one would generally expect the literal derivation of a meaning to fade over time. So if moderns are aware of the literal meaning from which it's derived the...
by Bob Coyne
March 10th, 2019, 11:09 am
Forum: General
Topic: ERDNASE
Replies: 7160
Views: 2132785

Re: ERDNASE

It doesn’t matter what modern people think. What matters is what people in sanders time thought. They're correlated. So it's a proxy. In fact, one would generally expect the literal derivation of a meaning to fade over time. So if moderns are aware of the literal meaning from which it's derived the...
by Bob Coyne
March 10th, 2019, 9:46 am
Forum: General
Topic: ERDNASE
Replies: 7160
Views: 2132785

Re: ERDNASE

When magicians and gamblers palm something they often are removing it from play -- they are taking it and concealing it. To "palm off" has the opposite connotation -- it is to get rid of something, to pass it to someone else. I'd be inclined to look for origins in other examples of palmin...
by Bob Coyne
March 9th, 2019, 7:52 pm
Forum: General
Topic: ERDNASE
Replies: 7160
Views: 2132785

Re: ERDNASE

This is a fantastic find, Bob! It may have been possible that Sanders used the alias of Thomas Baker for other endeavours. Yes, it raises various new possibilities lines of inquiry. One other thing that just occurred to me is that Sanders was convicted as part of a conspiracy for stealing ore in 18...
by Bob Coyne
March 9th, 2019, 6:41 pm
Forum: Buzz
Topic: Johnny Thompson Passes
Replies: 20
Views: 3582

Re: Johnny Thomson Passes

It's very sad to hear this. He was such a legend, and a connection to a previous era.
by Bob Coyne
March 9th, 2019, 6:09 pm
Forum: General
Topic: ERDNASE
Replies: 7160
Views: 2132785

Re: ERDNASE

Ok, to keep things interesting, here's something more speculative... some intriguing potential evidence that Sanders wrote under multiple aliases! If nothing else, it perhaps provides another road of investigation. The excerpts below appear in Contributions to the Montana Historical Society, Volume ...
by Bob Coyne
March 9th, 2019, 5:58 pm
Forum: General
Topic: ERDNASE
Replies: 7160
Views: 2132785

Re: ERDNASE

Why would this ‘probably be true’? I’m not asking for 100% certainty. I just think we should have one academic source that establishes that gambling/sleight of hand was the origination of this turn of phrase. I find it doubtful that enough of the public was familiar with the magicians term palming ...
by Bob Coyne
March 9th, 2019, 4:36 pm
Forum: General
Topic: ERDNASE
Replies: 7160
Views: 2132785

Re: ERDNASE

If we want to believe it’s use by sanders is significant because it adds to the list of known gambling references made by him, then its connection/derivation from gambling/sleight of hand jargon must be established. Rather than establishing it as 100% true (which would be nice), I think it's fine t...
by Bob Coyne
March 9th, 2019, 2:52 pm
Forum: General
Topic: ERDNASE
Replies: 7160
Views: 2132785

Re: ERDNASE

If you look into the link I provided you will see that pawn off has been in use for some time - appearing 10 years after palm off - and there appears to be subtle differences in use. Right, whether "pawn off" is incorrect (as that site claimed) isn't really relevant, though it's certainly...
by Bob Coyne
March 9th, 2019, 12:33 pm
Forum: General
Topic: ERDNASE
Replies: 7160
Views: 2132785

Re: ERDNASE

http://wordwizard.com/phpbb3/viewtopic.php?t=21220 I found a blogger who believes palm off originated from the magicians term but they offer no sources. The yellow background sections of the site above list some of the origins of the term and it’s sister phrase - pawn off. I think we have to prove ...
by Bob Coyne
March 9th, 2019, 11:44 am
Forum: General
Topic: ERDNASE
Replies: 7160
Views: 2132785

Re: ERDNASE

Bob, many people use the phrase ‘palm off’ in the context he uses for literary hucksters and I’m sure most have no understanding to its connections with gambling. (Just like many use the term on the square without being aware of its freemasonry connections.) That was my point - that this ‘turn of p...
by Bob Coyne
March 9th, 2019, 10:32 am
Forum: General
Topic: ERDNASE
Replies: 7160
Views: 2132785

Re: ERDNASE

I don't have a horse (or a dog) in this race but I understand that the phrase "on the square" originates in Freemasonry and not gambling per se. That's interesting to know, but it doesn't change the fact that "on the square" is strongly gambling-related. And that's the clear sen...
by Bob Coyne
March 9th, 2019, 10:06 am
Forum: General
Topic: ERDNASE
Replies: 7160
Views: 2132785

Re: ERDNASE

Martin Gardner speculated that Mark Twain might have written Erdnase “Nothing seems to please a fly so much as to be taken for a currant; and if it can be: baked in a cake and palmed off on the unwary, it dies happy.” ― Mark Twain I guess the above quote adds one more notch to the Mark Twain theory...
by Bob Coyne
March 9th, 2019, 1:49 am
Forum: General
Topic: ERDNASE
Replies: 7160
Views: 2132785

Re: ERDNASE

The term palmed off as used by Sanders in the sentence "the literary huckster ... has PALMED OFF upon us our own alleged history" has really no correlation with the term "palm off" as used by Erdnase. If we found a candidate had written something like "he had a sudden SHIFT...
by Bob Coyne
March 9th, 2019, 1:19 am
Forum: General
Topic: ERDNASE
Replies: 7160
Views: 2132785

Re: ERDNASE

The phrase palm off has been in use since 1822. So it’s use as a descriptor of dishonest actions would have been in the public vocabulary. Do other magic/gambling books of or before that era refer to the SLEIGHT as palming ‘off’ or just palming? Yes, clearly it's in the public vocabulary. If not, i...
by Bob Coyne
March 8th, 2019, 11:07 am
Forum: General
Topic: ERDNASE
Replies: 7160
Views: 2132785

Re: ERDNASE

Bob, Does Erdnase use PALMING OFF a card, as opposed to just PALMING a card, anywhere? Yes, several times: - hand and palm off the extra cards without fuss or unusual - middle, then palm off and hand the deck to the spectator to - Should the performer wish to palm off the selected card - (Shift and...
by Bob Coyne
March 8th, 2019, 2:25 am
Forum: General
Topic: ERDNASE
Replies: 7160
Views: 2132785

Re: ERDNASE

Speaking of Sanders...I recently discovered some new passages he wrote. In 1895, Sanders took over the compilation, editing and publishing of Volume 2 of Contributions to the Montana Historical Society, due to the illness of the previous editor. The volume consisted of reminiscences, diaries, and ot...
by Bob Coyne
March 8th, 2019, 12:36 am
Forum: General
Topic: ERDNASE
Replies: 7160
Views: 2132785

Re: ERDNASE

I wish I had more samples of Sanders' handwriting As Bill says, I would assume that the handwriting on that card is from the copyright office. But here are a couple photos with samples of Sanders' handwriting, which are interesting to see in any case. They're from his thesis and/or his summer camp ...
by Bob Coyne
March 3rd, 2019, 3:41 am
Forum: General
Topic: ERDNASE
Replies: 7160
Views: 2132785

Re: ERDNASE

Interesting article about using anti-plagiarism software to identify a source document for Shakespeare. Yes, very interesting...great how a new source can be found even at this late date, after a couple centuries of digging and research. The relation between Shakespeare's texts and their sources is...
by Bob Coyne
January 9th, 2019, 9:04 pm
Forum: Magic History and Anecdotes
Topic: What magical demonstrations have truly impressed you?
Replies: 20
Views: 780

Re: What magical demonstrations have truly impressed you?

Tom Mullica's cigarette routine was the most hilarious and magical live performance I've ever seen.

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