Cups, cups, cups

Discuss the latest news and rumors in the magic world.

Postby Guest » 09/25/05 09:01 AM

I have just forwarded a copy of the email I sent to RNT II requesting the unpaid balance to Richard Kaufman. It was dated July 27. I gave them the alternative of returning the books.

The original shipment of 36 books was made on June 10 by Priority Mail

To date, neither payment nor books have been received.

Dennis Loomis
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Postby Richard Kaufman » 09/25/05 09:33 AM

Well, Jacob, you really sound like a first-class jerk. The word is that Mike Brazil had RNT II taken away from him by his partners, who suddenly claimed they owned the rights to lots of designs that Mike didn't think he sold them. So, Mike has lots of friends and you don't seem to have many.
Many people feel there are lots of unanswered ethical and legal questions regarding RNT II and your attitude isn't going to win anyone over to your side.
The fact is that you have no rights regarding the use of Paul Fox's name. That right is owned SOLELY by his estate, and the estate has granted the sole use to Pete Biro and Joe Porper.
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Postby Mad Jake » 09/25/05 09:49 AM

Richard,
first off you know nothing of the agreement of sale. Mr. Brazill seems to have tried to pull this stunt before with the original RNT when he and I had discussions. As to the right of the Paul Fox name our add states Paul Fox Style cups, the operative word being "style". We have already discussed this and will be discontinuing any use of the name all together in any type of combination as a noun or adjective.

As to Mr. Brazill, again you have heard his side the same story told to everyone. However other investors that believed in RNT II when the Brazills had the company know exactly what is going on. Mr. Brazill's actions and story telling will eventually catch up with him. I don't need to air anything out here.

Bottom line, those who want the product will buy, those who want the politics and to be part of the bandwagon clan will stay away from us.

As to Mr. Loomis' posts, very unprofessional. Our accountant shows that the order was paid for in August. A new check was already dispateched for the purchase. RNT II pays their bills and to take a cheap shot like that in public just goes to the business character of the poster.

I've defended the company and I think I have answered questions fairly and honestly, our clients feel comfortable with us and have seen the company grow tremendously after the purchase of the near bankrupt RNT II. We will continue on with our business. I recommend everyone just do the same. I will not be replying to anymore posts as it is not serving any purpose but to give the "bandwangoneers" more to fabricate from a one-sided hearsay story woven by Mr. Brazill.

Everyone, get on with your buisiness. Those who have stood by us, RNT II thanks you. Those who oppose us, thank you as well, you have given alot of insight of one sided politics involved in this business and have given us a lot of research material to analyze.

The best to everyone and God Bless.
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Postby Bill Palmer » 09/25/05 12:07 PM

Originally posted by MagicFan440:
Pete-- I'm new to all of this posting,etc. Have you tried any "diplomatic" solutions with RNT2-- i.e., working with them to make the Paul Fox cups? From what I know you have the permission of the Paul Fox family....RNT2 has the logo, which I heard was obtained while Mike Brazill was running the company. But it seems that instead of fighting with them...since they legally own the logo (at least from what I can tell)...why not make it a joint venture...then both sides would benefit. At least that seems reasonable to me.
Regards,
Brandon
If you check out the papers that were filed, this went in before Mike was associated with Marcella and Jake. According to various posts and e-mails from Jake and Marcella, Mike Brazill never actually RAN RnT2 after they took it over.

Regarding my apparent lack of ability to read Jake's ads for the "factory second" Paul Fox style cups, I believe that I can explain this satisfactorily.

Jake said the cups had "divets" (sic) in the rims. I looked up the word "divet" in both Webster's Second and Webster's Third. For those of you from Viriginia, these are unabridged dictionaries, and are considered by people who actually write as the authority on American English. There is no such word as "divet" in American English. So I looked it up in the OED -- that's the Oxford English Dictionary, and sure enough, it was in there as a variant of "divot."

I've played enough golf to know what a divot is. So I interpreted the word to mean that there were nicks or dings in the rims.

I believe my confusion is understandable. And I congratulate Mr. Zimmerman on his knowledge of English variant spellings, which I had formerly attributed to a mistaken inabilty to actually be able to spell a simple five-letter word.

Even if it wasn't the word he meant.
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Postby Robert Allen » 09/25/05 12:46 PM

How about posting some digital photos of the "seconds" cups, from a few angles? I've seen a few cups from various manufacturers in the past with various problems and am always curious to see how my quality expectations line up with others.

In the past I've looked at what others considered acceptable or good enough and found them lacking in some way. In other cases, I've been told 'so and so's product has problems' and been unable to see any such problems myself.

Finally I wil just note that the issue of perceived de-valuation of first-line products is one reason why many manufacturers of expensive or handmade products (not just magic products) do not sell seconds. It cuts into their primary market and can peeve customers who bought the firstline product and who would have been just as happy with a second-line product.
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Postby Guest » 09/25/05 01:43 PM

Mr. Kaufman...you sound like the jerk to me. I've actually met Mike Brazil before...tried working with him, and to be honest...he's a jerk. Granted, he has been in the business for awhile...but I never found him to be very nice.

But the truth is, most of you on this forum are acting like first rate bums. I'm proud of my RNT2 cups-- and I use them to perform all the time--for a living. I'm just ashamed to see so many people bashing a perfectly good company. So what if you don't like their business tactics...and so what if you are "sympathizers" of with Mike Brazil. I heard that he made bad business decisions--so in truth, this is HIS OWN FAULT!!!! And, I've met him...he was not nice to me at all--and this was several years ago--before RNT2.

I guess I'm just not a fan of Mr. Brazil...and I don't necessarily believe the stories he's telling.
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Postby Pete Biro » 09/25/05 02:34 PM

May I suggest dumping this thread? RNT2 and Biro/Porper with the Fox Estate are working to a solution of the Paul Fox confusion and IMHO will sort things out to the satisfaction of all parties.

If not... :whack:
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Postby Pepka » 09/25/05 03:31 PM

Sounds like a good idea Pete. (Although I LOVE juicey stuff like this.) And a word to MagicFan. Richard isn't a jerk. But if he were, this is his house and he has every right. Also has the right to kick your butt off of here.
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Postby Guest » 09/25/05 03:38 PM

Jacob,
I did not receive payment in August, or at any other time. If your accountant has proof, then produce it. I sent a copy of my email requesting payment to Richard Kaufman.

If you paid me and I totally forgot, you would deserve a big apology, and you'll get it. But, if you did send out a payment and it somehow went astray, why didn't you let me know that when I requested Payment again later. My records do not indicate a payment, and that matches my memory. But, hey, I'm human. If I'm wrong, you should have a cancelled check or some electronic proof. Please send it to Richard Kaufman.

You said that a "new" check has been dispatched. If you claim to have paid it, (meaning a first check cleared) why would you pay me again? At this point, I do not want your money. If a check arrives now, I'll send it back and you can send the books back... Okay?

I will admit that I do not know you well. But I do know Mike Brazill and have for many years. I believe his version because I trust him AND because Bill Palmer backs him up.

I AM confused about the rights to use the Paul Fox name. Pete Biro is another guy I believe, and let me ask you publicly, Pete: Didn't Paul Fox sell the rights to his products to Danny Dew? I know that Danny Dew and Jeff Busby made some kind of a deal, and that many people say that Busby never completed paying Danny. But, why would the Paul Fox Family have the rights today? I'm not saying they don't, mind you, I'm asking.

Denny Loomis
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Postby Bill Wells » 09/25/05 03:46 PM

...from Bill Palmer's message...

"For those of you from Viriginia, these are unabridged dictionaries, and are considered by people who actually write as the authority on American English."
Watch it Mr. William....there are some from the Old Dominion who can read!! ...and don't you forget that Sam Houston was a Virginian !!!

Bill ;)
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Postby Bill Palmer » 09/25/05 04:26 PM

Bill:

You are right, of course. I should know about that. I married one of his great-great-great-grand nieces!

And she can read very well.
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Postby Guest » 09/25/05 05:30 PM

In a private email to me, Jake has admitted that they have no cancelled check. I am skeptical that one was sent, but things do go astray in the mail. He also states that all of the books save 3 or 4 have been sold. I have no reason to disbelieve that.

Therefore, I will accept and cash the new check if/when it arrives. And, I'll post it on this thread.

Denny Loomis
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Postby Guest » 09/25/05 06:12 PM

Pepka...I'm jut not a fan of accusations. Mr. Kaufman has no right to call anyone else a jerk--it is unprofessional, and makes him sound foolish--I don't care whose house it is. But I'm sorry if it offended anyone

My only point is that I've had the pleasure of meeting Mike Brazill, and he's not nearly as friendly as all of you make out. In fact, he was downright nasty and egotistical. Frankly it was at that time I lost tremendous respect for him. It was just happenstance that he and I came into contact (as it was me finding this particular forum).

I'm also not justifying anything for RNT2. I simply want professionalism...not allegations. Nobody has brought forth any documentation or proof on any wrongdoing. People in this forum just like to gossip--and it at the expense of others.

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Postby Pete Biro » 09/25/05 09:48 PM

Dennis: According to Paul Fox's daughter, no one, not even Danny Dew was granted rights to Paul Fox name and/or Logo. Danny used it as he had "permission" to make the stuff and market it FOR Paul.

Busby came along, befriended Danny, and when in poor health and needing funds, Danny was made an offer to buy the jigs and remaining stock by Busby. Busby took all the gear and made a down payment. (I don't know the deal and amount, but...)... According to Danny Dew's lawyer, Busby never paid what was agreed upon. The lawyer offered to go after Busby, pro bono, but Danny didn't want to go through the trouble as his health was failing and he didn't want the stress. After he died, his widow, Melba, just about has a heart attack anytime anyone "mentions the name Busby."

Busby filed and obtained a copyright on the PF logo without the knowledge of the Estate.

Paul's daughter and grandchildren are eager to bring the Paul Fox name, and reputation, back up to the top... and have entered into a licencing agreement with myself and Joe Porper to manufacture and market various Paul Fox items. The criteria is their approval of the qaulity, which we will have no trouble meeting.

Now, when someone else has come along and started to use the Paul Fox name and logo... this HARMS our situation, causing confusion with the general customer base. They won't know who's right or wrong, really, and if a poor product is made with the Fox name we all lose.

The Paul Fox estate is not happy about this at all.

We have had messages from the RNT-2 principals that they are going to drop the use of the Paul Fox name and have asked their webmaster to take it out of any items on their site.

Let's hope this can happen to the satisfaction of the Fox family.
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Postby Guest » 09/25/05 11:15 PM

Pete--does this mean that your major "issues" with RNT2 are now resolved?
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Postby Pete Biro » 09/26/05 09:08 AM

I believe so... the ball is in their court and we await to see how it plays out.
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Postby Pete Biro » 09/26/05 09:09 AM

BTW -- what they do has no bearing on what we do. We have plans and will stick to them. My only real problem is with the confusion factor.
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Postby Guest » 09/26/05 09:39 AM

Pete,
Thanks for clarifying the situation. I wish you and Joe nothing but the best in your endeavor. My first good set of cups were Paul Fox from Danny, and I am glad to know that the tradition will be carried on. We are fortunate that so many good sets of cups are being made today, with craftsmen like Jim Riser, Auke van Dokkum, and Joe Porper to mention some, creating quality products for performers and collectors.

Denny Loomis
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Postby Guest » 09/26/05 11:43 AM

If relationships are to be repaired, it would be good if RnT2 would consider starting by modifying their 'hit' counter at the bottom of their homepage.

That counter might be hidden away at the bottom of the page in a small font, but customers (like me) will read it. That sort of personal remark really isn't justified on a business web page and looks very unprofessional. I don't imagine you'd see such a sign in a shop front or on a business card.

It would be a good place to start burying that hatchet.

Z
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Postby George Olson » 09/26/05 03:12 PM

Haven't we about beaten this topic to an early grave?

Perhaps time to move on.

GO
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Postby Guest » 09/26/05 04:50 PM

Originally posted by Jacob:

As to the right of the Paul Fox name our add states Paul Fox Style cups, the operative word being "style". We have already discussed this and will be discontinuing any use of the name all together in any type of combination as a noun or adjective.

I didn't think this would cause so much excitement.

The add on RNT2.com does not use the word style anywhere in it.

Here is the description from the web sight.

The Next Generation PF CUPS BY RNT2
2nd Run in Stainless Near Completion

Available in stainless steel, copper, brass and precious metals. The most sought after cups of the 20th century are the cups that were designed by Paul Fox. The early PF cups were originally produced by Danny Dew and were made by three different machinists, the last of which were the crew at the original Rings and Things Magic in St. Louis, Missouri. This information has been known only to a few people on the "inside" of the cups and balls industry until just recently. So, it is only appropriate that the latest version of this style of cup be produced by the same people. We are now the new Registrar of the PF Logo.

The cups in the photo are the 3rd Generation PF Style Cups made by RnT II Magic Co. The first is in stainless steel, a material never before used for the PF Cups. Also availabe will be brass, copper and precious metals.

They are supplied with a pocket-sized instruction booklet, crocheted balls and an attractive double plush tassled drawstring bag that also serves as a close-up pad.


ONLY 20 OF 25 SETS REMAIN! When THEY ARE GONE NO MORE STAINLESS WILL BE MADE!
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Postby Terry_Holley » 09/26/05 07:23 PM

Mr. Farnsworthy:

If you read the ad again you will see that the word "style" is included:

"The cups in the photo are the 3rd Generation PF Style Cups made by RnT II Magic Co. The first is in stainless steel, a material never before used for the PF Cups. Also availabe will be brass, copper and precious metals." (bold mine)

Terry
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Postby Mad Jake » 09/26/05 09:34 PM

Mr. Farnsworthy,
it seems you only have two posts on Genii, both pertaining to RNT II. We officially knight you RNT II watchman for the rest of your natural life.

Yawwwn.... :sleep:
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Postby Guest » 09/27/05 06:24 AM

Originally posted by Jacob:
Richard,
first off you know nothing of the agreement of sale. Mr. Brazill seems to have tried to pull this stunt before with the original RNT when he and I had discussions. As to the right of the Paul Fox name our add states Paul Fox Style cups, the operative word being "style". We have already discussed this and will be discontinuing any use of the name all together in any type of combination as a noun or adjective.

As to Mr. Brazill, again you have heard his side the same story told to everyone. However other investors that believed in RNT II when the Brazills had the company know exactly what is going on. Mr. Brazill's actions and story telling will eventually catch up with him. I don't need to air anything out here.

Bottom line, those who want the product will buy, those who want the politics and to be part of the bandwagon clan will stay away from us.

As to Mr. Loomis' posts, very unprofessional. Our accountant shows that the order was paid for in August. A new check was already dispateched for the purchase. RNT II pays their bills and to take a cheap shot like that in public just goes to the business character of the poster.

I've defended the company and I think I have answered questions fairly and honestly, our clients feel comfortable with us and have seen the company grow tremendously after the purchase of the near bankrupt RNT II. We will continue on with our business. I recommend everyone just do the same. I will not be replying to anymore posts as it is not serving any purpose but to give the "bandwangoneers" more to fabricate from a one-sided hearsay story woven by Mr. Brazill.

Everyone, get on with your buisiness. Those who have stood by us, RNT II thanks you. Those who oppose us, thank you as well, you have given alot of insight of one sided politics involved in this business and have given us a lot of research material to analyze.

The best to everyone and God Bless.
Thought you're not replying anymore?
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Postby Matthew Field » 09/27/05 07:02 AM

For pity's sake, shut this one down.

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Postby Richard Kaufman » 09/27/05 07:48 AM

Matt, you really think we should close this thread? I'm enjoying watching Jacob make my point so well. :)
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Postby Pete Biro » 09/27/05 09:40 AM

:D :D :D :D :D
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Postby Guest » 09/27/05 11:04 AM

Hello,
my name is Marcella Zimmerman, for those of you who do not know me I am the President/CEO of RNT II Magic Inc., the company which I purchased from the Brazills and legally recognized as such purchase by the Brazills and the state of Va.

While Jake has acted as a consultant and voice for the company I feel that both Jake and RNT II Magic has taken enough brutality from what appears to be a group of gossiping unprofessionals.

Mr. Brazill sold RNT II as the company was at the brink of bankrupcty. With quite a bit of work the company was revived, debts paid and the company has flourished. What appears to be happening is now that Mr. Brazill's broken toy when he had it has now been repaired he is resentful. When the company was sold there was an unpaid debt of over 12,336.00 due our engraving company for services supplied to RNT II which were never paid and the debt had to be absorbed by the company.

Mr Brazill agreed to turn over all assets per the contract of sale and failed to do so, in the intrim, Mr Brazill sold off property belonging to the RNT II Corporation after sale, sales which included forged certificates of authenticty. I can say this with out libel or slander as our attorney has in their posession documented proof of these transactions. I make this post as a message to people who are approached with such products as these are listed with the authorities and our attorney as stolen corporate property. The forged COA's that Mr Brazill is providing people are not from RNT II and is also bein investigated by the authorities. Mr Brazill is also selling cups which belong to RNT II Magic Inc where there are dimples in the bottoms of the cups. These cups where dimpled to mark themm as unsellable.

I will not stand by and have my name or the companys name slandered or bashed by these groups any longer. Any legal questions or complaints can be directed to our attorney and since all of you seem to know so much about the actions and internal operations of RNT II Magic, Inc. you must already know who our attorney is.

On a personal note and in my opinion only, I would suggest how close you stand next to Mr. Brazill he doesn't seem to care who he cheats or sells property that is not his to. Knowingly purchasing products of RNT II Magic Inc. from Mr. Brazill that have been produced after 1/5/05 is now to be considered recieving stolen property and will be treated as such by myself and this company.

I have relieved Jake of his position of consultant and will leave him to his engineering work and his own business alike. Any questions or concerns may be directed to me directly or through our attorney.

Good Day.
Marcella Zimmerman
President/CEO
RNT II Magic, Inc.
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Postby Bob Walder » 09/28/05 02:26 AM

Marcie - you go girl!

From a collector's/consumer's point of view, I can only say that I have had nothing but pleasant dealings with RNT II. On the couple of occasions where they have slipped up on quality issues with me, both Jacob and Marcie have bent over backwards to put things right.

On the incorrectly made PF cups issue - sounds like everyone has received or will receive a new set of cups, correctly manufactured, without prompting (in some cases) and in ADDITION to the original cups - sounds like a sweet deal to me!

On the seconds issue - always a dicey business selling seconds - always the risk of people who purchased original items being peeved if they consider the flaws are small enough to be overlooked. But we've all seen this before - buying seconds is a lottery. If you are happy with the quality of the originals, leave it at that.

Maybe a company which is trying to make a name by producing top quality merchandise should reconsider selling seconds at all, but that is a corporate decision for Marcie to make (I think Jim Riser's solution is a good one - keep all the seconds and offer them gratis at regular intervals to poor/young/deserving magicians who cannot afford full prices for quality gear - nice solution!)

On the rest of the points raised, sounds like a lot of second or third hand gossip is being traded...
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Postby Guest » 09/28/05 06:48 AM

As I have posted all along, my business dealings with RNT2 have been VERY professionally managed. The business has been conducted with honesty and integrity. There have been no "handshake deals", and at the insistance of the Jake and Marcella, my attorney (of course at my expense) had to draft a written agreement giving permission for RNT2 to use my trademark. This not only protects my interests, but also those of RNT2. This is the PROPER way to do business.

For those who have criticized RNT2 for "shady" business deals, I suggest you carefully consider the source. RNT2 has been up front, honest, and very professional with me--and have been pleased thus far. You will notice several other manufacturers, like Jim Sisti and Ickle Pickle products feel similarly.

I am very proud of my cups, and the folks at RNT2 know that my trust in them to manufacture the cups correctly, with the utmost precision and care is invaluable.

If you liked the JESmagic Squatty Cups before...don't blink...the best is yet to come! And for those with any concerns--rest assured that I am working DIRECTLY with RNT2 (as I did with my previous spinning company) to produce by far the best Squatty Cups to date.

Regards,
Jonathan Schweid, M.D.
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Postby Pete Biro » 09/28/05 11:38 AM

RNT II is a great name with a great heritage. I think they should do all they can to promote thier own name. To confuse people with the use of Paul Fox diminishes their own RNT II identity.
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Postby Scott Fridinger » 09/28/05 02:38 PM

I really can't believe that the Paul Fox name can make people so angry. If the add said Paul Fox "style" how is that any different than saying "A next generation version of a Vernon Classic..."

As a consumer, I don't think I will ever buy anything with the Paul Fox name, because when I do I will hear that so and so didn't have the right or that is a knockoff... To bad, seems like the originals where nice.
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Postby Pete Biro » 09/28/05 04:25 PM

Paul Fox had a great eye for shapes and a great mind for magic. What he created was outstanding magic with beautiful props made to a standard well above most makers of his time.

Sadly there have be Knock Off's and most have not been of a standard he would have approved of. Some would.

It would be a shame for what he created to be lost to new generations of magicians.

That, and his reputation, are what his family wants to continue. They want to "polish" the tarnish off those products and people that did his name wrong.

It's that simple.

We (Joe Porper and I) have proven to the family that we can produce the items faithfully and to the standards expected. That is why they have granted us a licencing agreement to make certain items Paul Fox created.

It has been some time since this agreement was reached. Some have asked "why aren't the products ready?"

Simply because they require extensive tooling, research and expense. We are working on several items and when they are ready will be released.

But we will not release anything that is not up to the highest standard.
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Postby Guest » 09/28/05 05:07 PM

In today's mail, I received the checks from RNT II for the books I shipped out to them on June 10th. When the check clears (and I'm not suggesting that it won't) I'll consider the matter closed. Thank you, Jacob and Marcella.

It is most unfortunate that the Idaho Idiot tarnished the Paul Fox name. I never met Paul Fox, but I did have the occasional to visit with Danny Dew a couple of times when I was performing in Arizona. He was a gentleman and the items I purchased from him were first class.

I'm sure that Pete Biro and Joe Porper will help to restore the Paul Fox image.

It could be confusing, though, since RNT II, Biro and Porper, and Mike Brazill all seem to feel that they have a legitimate claim to the Paul Fox name.

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Postby Pete Biro » 09/28/05 06:28 PM

The only person(s) that have a real right to the Paul Fox name are his heirs. PERIOD.

It is they that can grant a licence to use the name.
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Postby Richard Kaufman » 09/28/05 06:37 PM

Pete is correct. He and Joe Porper have a signed license from the Paul Fox estate giving them the sole ability to use Paul Fox's name in the marketing of magic. Anyone else who's using Paul Fox's name is doing so in violation of that agreement.
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Postby Mark Collier » 09/28/05 07:42 PM

I can see why the Fox heirs decided to go with Pete Biro and Joe Porper. They both have demonstrated a high level of integrity and Joe Porper is a world class machinist that is clearly capable of meeting the most exacting standards.
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Postby Terry_Holley » 09/28/05 07:59 PM

Even though in an earlier post I pointed out to Mr. Farnsworthy that the RnT2 ad copy did contain the word "style," I was by no means stating agreement with the use of "PF" or "Paul Fox" in the ad. I was merely attempting to point out Mr. Farnsworthy's oversight in the interest of fairness.

Being friends with both Danny and Melba Dew as well as the daughter of Paul Fox leads me to wholeheartedly agree with Pete and Richard regarding the use of the Paul Fox name.

I look forward to the release of the new line of items for a new generation of magicians.

Terry
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Postby Pete Biro » 09/28/05 08:23 PM

Many thanks for the kind words--and support. We are in no rush and when we do release material it will be to the highest possible standards, to which Paul Fox was known for.
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Postby Pete Biro » 09/28/05 08:24 PM

By the Way... Porper has produced a limited number of his famous card clips with engraved images of Dai Vernon. These were produced in conjunction with Bill Bowers for the Magic Castle's "Vernon Bash."

For a look, go to www.porperoriginals.com
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Pete Biro
 
Posts: 7124
Joined: 01/17/08 01:00 PM
Location: Hollyweird

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