TAKE DOWN EXPOSURE!!!

Discuss the latest news and rumors in the magic world.

Postby Guest » 08/13/07 01:58 AM

I just came across another RIDICULOUS exposure site. Criss Angel, Kevin Parker, Daniel Garcia, Anders Moden, Masuda, and many more brilliant magicians ripped off. They even have footage taken direct from copyright material!!! This is blatantly illegal, and I don't want this to continue any longer.

If you have a problem with this, and think this should be stopped, then PLEASE HELP! Are you a lawyer? Do you know people who know people? I will include the website owners information below (Googled:). See what HE has to say! haha Thank you for your help.

David J. Castle (Michigan)
www.michiganmagician.com
www.learnmagictricks.org

1-586-286-7444 (Home)

1-586-549-1109 (Answering Machine)
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Postby Guest » 08/13/07 05:09 AM

One could easily read the above as soliciting harassment and organizing a conspiracy to harass.

Is everything on that site an unauthorized use of copyrighted material?

Perhaps this would better by handled by directly informing the publishers so they can reivew.
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Postby Guest » 08/13/07 07:31 AM

Mr Townsend, I think when you see the high quality magic that is being exposed by professionals like this:

http://www.learnmagictricks.org/video.php?v=6571

you will change your mind and call for immediate harrassment of the site owner.

I am sickened by this.

I use this effect in my weekly restaurant gig and now I am screwed.

Damnit.
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Postby Guest » 08/13/07 08:05 AM

MrGoat: That's funny! Best laugh I've had in a LONG time...

Well done...

PG
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Postby Guest » 08/13/07 08:38 AM

Discussed previuosly in April 2007 here:

http://geniimagazine.com/forum/cgi-bin/ ... 801#000000
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Postby Guest » 08/13/07 01:02 PM

I posted this in Genii so that the appropriate magicians have a fair opportunity to contact the website owner. All of his information is right up on the web (google), and he is VERY public about who he is and what he is doing. Just read his mission statements, etc... People can make money on his site exposing magic, and being the most popular!!! :(

I also made a point to only post this here at Genii, where things are a lot more official and professional (compared to the cafe). This is a genuine concern! If a site like this remains up, then any new effect that comes out might show up here exposed. Kinda scary if your an inventor!

I mostly wanted someone with proper legal knowledge to help this guy out. He needs to know what he has gotten into! Please do not harass anyone!!! This is just an opportunity to discuss.
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Postby Guest » 08/13/07 01:09 PM

Not everything is exposure on the site, but do some scrolling around and you'll find it!!!

http://www.learnmagictricks.org/newsite ... php?id=401

http://www.learnmagictricks.org/newsite ... php?id=571


Both videos contain copyright material, Criss wouldn't be to happy about this!
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Postby Guest » 08/13/07 02:02 PM

In regards to Dave J Castles shameless tribute to theft and at least, a pure an flagrant disregard for respect on his site- I don't think it's a conspiracy to harrass since he posts that information on his site himself. I have e-mailed him various letters in the past. Alas, to no avail. After all, I am but one individual. But, should we just put our heads in the sand and ignore these people? Should we stand by and wait for the Government to step in? History teaches us that the only way to even get the gov. involved to evoke a response is to act. If harrasment is what it takes, then so be it. What is the future of magic worth to you? Those who have established a legacy, is it not worth standing up to defend?
This is a different battle since here in cyberspace we can be who we want, but when it transends into the real world as trechery and theft, it should be dealt with. Sadly, that responsibility lies upon us. Or, we can sit idlely by and wait for the Govt. to step in, much like the victims of katrina who are still waiting for them.
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Postby Guest » 08/13/07 02:02 PM

All of this has been discussed on here before a number of times with many lawyers (and plenty of others) weighing in with differing opinions. Bottom line seems to be:

a.) It is a bad and growing issue
b.) It is not exclusive to magic
c.) It is not as black and white as we think it is
d.) It's expensive to pursue a remedy with an uncertain outcome
e.) Once you step on one [censored] roach another appears
f.) There is a real risk of new material not being released except in a very limited underground method.
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Postby Guest » 08/13/07 02:55 PM

Originally posted by mrgoat:
I use this effect in my weekly restaurant gig and now I am screwed.

Damnit.
No you're not.
Honestly, how many people use this site? I'd bet it's so few that you could do that trick a million times and still not find someone who found out about it from that site.

Gord
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Postby Guest » 08/13/07 05:16 PM

"10,000+ Hits a day and growing" It's been up for a year!
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Postby Guest » 08/13/07 09:29 PM

Am I the only person who doesn't search for magic tricks on line?
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Postby Guest » 08/13/07 10:49 PM

Originally posted by mrgoat:
Mr Townsend, I think when you see the high quality magic that is being exposed by professionals like this:

http://www.learnmagictricks.org/video.php?v=6571

you will change your mind and call for immediate harrassment of the site owner.

I am sickened by this.

I use this effect in my weekly restaurant gig and now I am screwed.

Damnit.
Oh MAN!!!! What a bummer!!! Not THAT one! Any trick but that one. Crap! Merde! Poo poo! The next thing you'll tell me is that they have an exposee of the 21 Card Trick.
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Postby Guest » 08/13/07 11:47 PM

Dear Gord,

I think you'll find MrGoat was being facetious...

Paul Gordon
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Postby Guest » 08/14/07 12:02 AM

Originally posted by Tom Dobrowolski:
f.) There is a real risk of new material not being released except in a very limited underground method.
So there is a plus side!
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Postby Guest » 08/14/07 08:43 AM

Originally posted by Paul Gordon:
Dear Gord,

I think you'll find MrGoat was being facetious...

Paul Gordon
It's my version of comedy.

:)
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Postby Guest » 08/14/07 09:45 AM

Goaty, you've been providing comic relief here for quite some time (e.g., Chris Bliss Diss thread and your absolute love for Jakob Nielson's theories in all things internet)...

Tom Dobrowolski wrote:

All of this has been discussed on here before a number of times ... Bottom line seems to be:

a.) It is a bad and growing issue

...
Toms summary provides food for thought. While some of the implications of Toms first observation have been previously discussed, I'd like to highlight the point, since for me it goes to the crux of the matter:

Is the issue of exposure really a growing issue?

Im not so sure that it is, whether one judges the question using a 20 year period or a 100 year period.

CHS
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Postby Guest » 08/14/07 10:10 AM

Growing as in what is posted stays out on the intenet and may go viral... IMHO yes.
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Postby Guest » 08/14/07 10:39 AM

As opposed to something being put in print and staying in circulation in public libraries?

In practical effect, I wonder if there's any difference, Jonathan.

By the way, name 5 magic tricks that have truly gone viral. If you can't name 5, it ain't a problem, IMHO.

C.
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Postby Guest » 08/14/07 11:23 AM

Originally posted by Magicam:
...By the way, name 5 magic tricks that have truly gone viral. If you can't name 5, it ain't a problem, IMHO.

C.
Ambitious card, 'two card monte', self levitation, color changing deck (attention video) and the quarter bite come to mind off the top as far as muggle awareness goes.

Now if you include "tutorials" and "performance clips" by folks other than the inventor of a trick on YouTube or similar the list grows much longer and includes things like Armando Lucero's Menagerie.
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Postby Guest » 08/14/07 11:50 AM

Just got off the phone with David Castle. He said anything that isn't public domain and is a blatant copyright infringement he will take down IF HE IS NOTIFIED. It was obvious from our conversation that he isn't going to go out of his way to research the effects and figure out whats ok to expose and whats not. But he will take it down if contacted.

It was also apparent that he is not the most well read magician so much of the material he might think is public domain but isn't. So he needs to be told what is.

All the best,

Kranzo
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Postby Guest » 08/14/07 11:54 AM

Nathan, that was very cool of you to talk to the guy. Hurray!

About effects... all are up for grabs AND EXPOSURE, not a legal issue. Remember you-know-who's coins across?

But as to performances from videos or text borrowed from books... that is something well worth telling the guy about.
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Postby Guest » 08/14/07 11:55 AM

Hey Nate that's a great start.

Originally posted by Magicam:
Tom Dobrowolski wrote:

All of this has been discussed on here before a number of times ... Bottom line seems to be:

a.) It is a bad and growing issue

...
Toms summary provides food for thought. While some of the implications of Toms first observation have been previously discussed, I'd like to highlight the point, since for me it goes to the crux of the matter:

Is the issue of exposure really a growing issue?

Im not so sure that it is, whether one judges the question using a 20 year period or a 100 year period.

CHS
It may be more the ease of accessing and distributing the information. Technology has made it easier to capture and distribute information more widely then ever before. Internet savvy people with a passing interest or out of curiosity or boredom can find just about anything on the web and distribute it widely within minutes.

Also if you take into consideration the glut of material being released these days the percentages are probably about the same.

This raises another point I avoided in my first post. With so many magic inventors/creators these days releasing the millionth version of THEIR NEW, NEVER DONE BEFORE method of self levitation and coin in bottle or whatever else they came up with last night and made into an e-book or download I think magic is encouraging the dissemination of secrets which leads to this exposure.
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Postby Guest » 08/14/07 12:14 PM

Thanks Nathan for calling! Make sure he takes off your effects... i saw some 2 year old trying to explain box monster... ridiculous

I spoke with him too. He said the same thing, if you tell him to take it off, then he will (if its exposure of a marketed effect). But he also made it clear that he does not patrol the site, and like Nathan said, he definitely does not seem up to date on a lot of things... including getting his own place to live at 30 years old. haha :p
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Postby Guest » 08/14/07 02:56 PM

Originally posted by Jesse Feinberg:
Thanks Nathan for calling! Make sure he takes off your effects... i saw some 2 year old trying to explain box monster... ridiculous

I spoke with him too. He said the same thing, if you tell him to take it off, then he will (if its exposure of a marketed effect). But he also made it clear that he does not patrol the site, and like Nathan said, he definitely does not seem up to date on a lot of things... including getting his own place to live at 30 years old. haha :p
LOL!!!

Kranzo
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Postby Guest » 08/15/07 09:23 AM

Originally posted by Jonathan Townsend:
Originally posted by Magicam:
[b]...By the way, name 5 magic tricks that have truly gone viral. If you can't name 5, it ain't a problem, IMHO.

C.
Ambitious card, 'two card monte', self levitation, color changing deck (attention video) and the quarter bite come to mind off the top as far as muggle awareness goes.

Now if you include "tutorials" and "performance clips" by folks other than the inventor of a trick on YouTube or similar the list grows much longer and includes things like Armando Lucero's Menagerie. [/b]
Mea culpa, Jonathan. I have a vague idea what "going viral" means, but couldn't confirm or disprove your offering of examples. Did any of them circulate several hundreds of thouands of times?

Clay
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Postby Guest » 08/15/07 10:33 AM

Folks, when your co-worker shows you the Criss Angel self levitation explanation video online it's gone.

Is there a proper marketing term for when the early adapters have found a thing and the wannabees are not getting "oh how clever you are" type feedback from the early adapters because it's no longer news?
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Postby Guest » 08/15/07 10:43 AM

Originally posted by Jonathan Townsend:
Is there a proper marketing term for when the early adapters have found a thing and the wannabees are not getting "oh how clever you are" type feedback from the early adapters because it's no longer news?
The Tipping Point would fit...

(Great book btw)
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Postby Guest » 08/15/07 10:47 AM

Did any of them circulate several hundreds of thouands of times?

Clay [/QB]
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2KrdBUFeFtY

8 million views.

although the explanation video has 'only' 850,000 views.

Still an impressive number, but it does suggest (nay, prove) that only 10% of people that view a trick *want* to know how it's done...

Probably.
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Postby Guest » 08/15/07 11:12 AM

Without belaboring this issue-topic-problem by echoing the arguments of experts who deal with the consequences of our technologies and know far more than I--namely that the democratization of information and how intellectual property is becoming more and more difficult to safeguard. Even the issue of personal privacy is under siege.

Once info or data is "out there," it can be ripped off and freely accessed or distributed. People in the music business are seeking more imaginative remedies to Open Source and pirating. If a magic trick is marketed and sold, you cannot stop it from being plundered. Does anyone think that producers of content in China heed copyright here?
Dream on.

As soon as I post a PDF file or e-book on my Website, it does not take long for it to be freely snagged and distributed.

As Ben Franklin once quipped. "Three people can keep a secret if two of them are dead."

If a secret appears on a Website with links, the secret is going to be shared with more people in a shorter period of time than in any other time in history.

Want to keep a secret?

Tell no one.
Trust no one.
Show no one.

Big Brother is a blabbermouth.

Onward...
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Postby Guest » 08/15/07 11:25 AM

I'd argue instead for treating magic knowledge as a token of trust passed from inventor to trustee. Something of a private currency which is not suitable for all public debits.

This approach pretty much obviates much of the commerce in magicdom but it does get us back on track to have performable material which is not already accompanied by video tutorials posted by students for all and sundry via courtesy of YouTube.

Not quite secrets but something akin.
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Postby Guest » 08/15/07 01:02 PM

wait. what where we talking about? haha
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Postby Guest » 08/15/07 05:00 PM

Originally posted by Jesse Feinberg:
... what where we talking about? ...
Were talking about a big-fat dilemma for magi world-wide.

After all, if Jon R. (for example) is providing such strict advice re secret-keeping, yet still posting/selling/giving/publishing secrets, that tells me that he (like many others) sits on the sharp horns of a dilemma.

Thus endeth this conversation (for the next few minutes, at least).

CHS
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Postby Guest » 08/15/07 10:45 PM

I'm not only sitting on the horns, I'm impaled and quite bloody...
My unbidden advice is (was) for those who have real secrets...

Robert Frost: "I keep secrets in order to secrete..."

So...

I'll shut my mouth now...

JR
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Postby Guest » 08/16/07 02:51 AM

[QUOPeople in the music business are seeking more imaginative remedies to Open Source and pirating. [/QB][/QUOTE]

Sorry Mr R,

What on earth does Open Source software have to do with piracy?

Damian
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Postby Guest » 08/16/07 06:14 AM

I'm someone who performs magic for a living. I don't create magic and I don't sell my own tricks. I make a living performing sleight of hand magic for lay people. I'm not famous but I'm pretty good at what I do.

I don't get what all the hubub is about. None of this exposure on youtube or torrent or masked magicians has affected my work one iota. When a big illusion was revealed by the Masked Magician, I heard a professional magician say, "Now I can't do that illusion." Why? When you're out there working for real people and you're confident in what you do, exposure doesn't matter. The pirates can't expose YOU. When you put so much of yourself in the trick, it won't even look like the one they saw exposed on TV. I saw the guy on youtube revealing the "Best card trick in the world" (see link above) and I have to tell you, it was the worst presentation I've ever seen of a trick. He had no personality, no timing, looked like he had no interest himself in the trick. I can do the same trick to a lay audience who has seen the explanation of said trick and they'll still be fooled. And I'm not even that good (not good like Daryl or Ammar or Williamson) but what I am good at is being me.

I performed the Linking Rings the night after the Masked Magician revealed the secret on national television (I even heard people say, "I know how this works, I saw it last night") and they were still fooled ("maybe he's using different rings" they said). No, I was using the same rings. It was my presentation that fooled them. It was my personality, my character, AND THEY CAN'T EXPOSE THAT!

I don't worry about exposure. I just go out there every single night of the week and perform magic tricks. I don't sit at home and worry about the magic tricks being revealed...I go out there and perform them.

And I rarely have a problem with people knowing the secrets from youtube or wherever. I'm a nice guy and they like me and they come back to the restaurants I perform to see more tricks...because they like me.

That's the real secret.

Bob Infantino
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Postby Guest » 08/16/07 06:18 AM

Is this like arguing that biology text books don't interfere with the world's oldest profession?
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Postby Brandon Hall » 08/16/07 11:44 AM

Steve V, I think you got your answer loud and clear.
"Hope I Die Before I Get Old"
P. Townshend
Brandon Hall
 
Posts: 367
Joined: 01/17/08 01:00 PM
Location: North Hollywood, CA

Postby Guest » 08/17/07 01:12 AM

I don't expect a magician that only performs to get why this exposure is so disturbing. It doesn't effect you AS much.

Magic effect sales can't be compared to music sales either. They don't make the same type of numbers. So if you sell your first batch of a new trick, and everyone just pirates/trades it... your NOT selling that many more! That is sad. Inventors of magic are not making any money, and personally I'd rather keep it to myself then get a trick ripped off. And eventually magic will have very little new content, nothing cool to perform at your next gig! :(

You better do something about it! Get out there and call people like whats his face, and that biotch valentina. Get these dedicated exposure sites trashed. Or live a magical life of "oh, I saw that on youtube, blah blah..."
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Postby Guest » 08/17/07 04:25 AM

Originally posted by Jesse Feinberg:
...Magic effect sales can't be compared to music sales either....if you sell your first batch of a new trick, and everyone just pirates/trades it...I'd rather keep it to myself then get a trick ripped off. ...
I do sympathize. Having some of my work out there without permission and being shown around on video and tutorial and ... is not such a nice feeling. Did they at least start a rumor that you were dead before showing your work around? In the mean time you may want to look at some basic legalities and social reality for our community as it exists in the larger market - since we still accept trades of 'secrets' for dollars around here.

If you are willing to SELL stuff, and there's no NDA, then you are open to having it exposed on YouTube and wherever. You sold it. They can do as they see fit with it. They being anyone.

Since open (a muggle can obtain it) sales is exposure you may want to start your crusade by ...
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