What happened to ethics in magic?

Discuss the latest news and rumors in the magic world.

Postby Guest » 08/03/03 06:41 AM

Myself, along with David Haversat are the former owners of the See-more Magic Shop in Connecticut and online. I am currently the the owner of www.magicpresto.com with a storefront in Connecticut. A number of years ago Dave and I developed an effect called "Fortune Cookie Surprise", which I still sell in my shop. We sold the effect in our shop and online and at magic conventions. It was reviewed and recommened in "The Linking Ring" and also in "MAGIC" magazine. It was offered to Murphy's Magic Supplies and Mark Murphy declined it. It was also carried by Mak Magic and several other magic dealers. Now Diamond Jim Tyler, has put out the SAME effect, WITH THE SAME NAME. It appalls me the this person would do this. I was told by one of the vendors that I buy wholesale magic from that reputable dealers would not cary Diamond Jim's ripped off trick. However, Murphy's and Hank Lee are carrying it. Draw your own conclusion.
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Postby Robert Allen » 08/03/03 11:21 AM

Without intending to comment on the merit of the accusation one way or another (really!) I find it ironic that the first line of the description of this trick at Hank Lees uses the words "ripping off" :)

"Imagine a spectator ripping off the wrapper of a fortune cookie"
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Postby Chance Wolf » 08/03/03 11:35 AM

What happened to ethics in Magic? In my opinion...too many cowards at the highest level of Magic as well as Dealers etc. too scared to FACE the TRUTH and address these problems HEAD ON due to financial reasons, advertising fees,convention fees, inventory etc.
I have given up trying to expose the hacks and will just worry about policing my own products as well as a few close creator friends of mine.
The Ethics commitees, and so on, dropped the ball a long time ago. I really am sorry to say that but it seems that Walter Blaney has been SCREAMING charges and NOBODY listens. Walter and I keep close communication regarding his products and we have discussed the LACK of ACTION from so many who could make a difference.
Bryan and Dave. I am sorry to hear your idea has been hacked. It is such a blatant rip-off yet it just keeps going on. sad man...real sad.
Step up DEALERS and have some guts. After all, without US, as Creators, you have nothing. In this day and age of the Internet and easier marketing...YOU need US a lot more than WE NEED YOU!
For the record, I am NOT naming any names or companies. If you are offended by this post...them maybe you are part of the problem.
Sorry to sound irate but I simply am.
Take care.
Chance Wolf
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Postby Steve V » 08/03/03 12:01 PM

Have you contacted Diamond Jim about this issue? If not then why not try doing so? First off the name itself isn't exactly mystical, the name "Fortune Cookie Surprise" kind of says it all. Wouldn't be a streatch thing think two (or dozens) of people couldn't come up with it. As for the idea of putting a fortune in a cookie that is a prediction etc. isn't new, companies have been putting special messeges in them from ads to proposals for many many many years. If Diamond Jim did see your item and reproduce it under the same name intentionally then he's a lot less bright than I give him credit for. If he just stepped into it w/out knowing about you then perhaps you need to deal with him rather than just complaining.
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Postby opie » 08/03/03 12:46 PM

Bryan, Robert, Wolf, and Steve:

It appears that WAM, the organization which was set up by Walter Blaney, has lost the support of both the SAM and the IBM, because the organizations are afraid of lawsuits. Therefore, people who lift other people's property and people who go on tv and expose magic secrets are no longer afraid of anyone calling their hand.

The way to get attention to the problem is to outline the problem in detail, outline how you feel about it, and then go to the IBM and SAM webs and e mail every officer listed with your gripe.....Be sure to info Walter Blaney, zblaney@aol.com , because he is just sick about the loss of support.....He can also use the encouragement right now....

I am a member of both organizations, but I am very disappointed that a few people at the top have obviously forgotten that you have to stick your neck out a little to protect what is right....

There are a few things that I am dead serious about, and this is one of them--the lack of support of those who are supposed to be in the business of protecting what is right....

opie houston, President, Assembly 206, SAM, Austin TX
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Postby Steve Hook » 08/03/03 01:10 PM

With all due respect, Steve V, the same trick with the same name is not most likely serendipity. Not only that, but DJ and the dealers could have easily verified (via the LR, MAGIC, the Internet, etc.) that this had already been marketed.

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Postby Steve V » 08/03/03 01:45 PM

As I said, if he did know about it and put out the product then deal with it. If that means jack slapping him around or sicking lawyers on him that is up to the offended party. From what I've seen magicians taking directly from others and releasing usually inferior products is the norm. I'm glad I'm not in that business.
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Postby opie » 08/03/03 02:00 PM

Mr. Hook.....

I don't know about the cited alledged problem, but I do know that WAM will be unable to handle any problems until it regains the support of organizations like IBM and SAM.....Right now, there are a couple of lawyers who have convinced the "leadership" of IBM and SAM that they could be held as co-respondants (or whatever you call it) in libel cases, just because they contribute money to WAM and in the event WAM is sued.

It is totally stupid, but the "leadership" of IBM and SAM are so afraid of losing their Presidential suites at national and international conventions that they have voted to stop support of WAM. DUH! There hasn't even been a vote of general IBM and SAM members; the vote to stop support came from only the officers who voted at the board meetings.....DUH!

If votes that count had only been made by the officers in charge of the colonies, there would be no United States of America....DUH!

If the general members of IBM and SAM do not make a statement to the leadership to support organizations that try to police our very-basic oaths, we might as well just make all the local Rings and Assemblies independent little clubs that really have no say so in how our national organizations like IBM and SAM (which has almost a million bucks by the way; how do you think we afford the Presidential suites for the officers at conventions?)....

I really believe we need to tell the "leadership" of IBM and SAM that they need to support those who fight to preserve our high standards or just quit taking the bennies....

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Postby Guest » 08/03/03 03:38 PM

Opie, for once I agree with you. Right down the line.

Wasn't one of the reasons for the formation of these clubs to stop things like this? Publicly denounce thieves and exposure "artists"?

And everyone wonders why the top men in this field aren't members.

Best,

Geoff
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Postby Jonathan Townsend » 08/03/03 03:38 PM

Originally posted by Bryan Lizotte:
... Draw your own conclusion.
There was a post here about Nate Liepzig and his performing backgroung way back in the 20's. There is a link to a biography site of about six pages. There in the site is a great description of how he went to a visiting performer's show, saw a bit about getting a telegram delivered... and promptly included the bit in his act.

How many folks have the Harbin book, yet have and sell 'Zig-Zag's? This goes all the way back to a TVshow magician hijacking someone's working illusion off a train to have measurements taken and copies made. Kind of gives that fameous publicity shot a whole new spooky aspect.

What happened? Perhaps for some reason, in some small area... there was less of this going on while you were looking?

There seems to be a great deal of 'monkey see - monkey do' in this craft. It gets a bit frustrating when the 'monkey ask' part gets left out.

just my two banannas ;)
Mundus vult decipi -per Caleb Carr's story Killing Time
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Postby Chance Wolf » 08/03/03 03:56 PM

Jonathan,
You nailed it. "Just ask."
I am new as a manufacturer of magic but have many years of creating behind me. My new style has been capturing peoples attention as well as my interest in breathing some new life into old effects, visually and mechanically. I am not short on original ideas however sometimes you feel like you just have to dig into an oldie but goodie. When I make the decision to pursue this, the FIRST thing I do is CONTACT the Originator or Liscensed Manufacturer and ASK for their permission. If they agree, I OFFER/DEMAND to pay them a ROYALTY and or any other negotion to settle the deal and make sure everyone is happy.
The most surprising thing that happened, when approaching the creators with my proposition, was their COMPLETE AMAZEMENT that I was even calling for permission.
I have 3 "revised with permission" effects coming out within the next 12 months. I hope I will be setting an example of what I think is a painfully obvious practice of business.
Take care,
Chance Wolf
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Postby Jonathan Townsend » 08/03/03 05:08 PM

Originally posted by opie:
...to protect our very basic pledges to protect the secrets and ethics of our fraternity....
What are our ethics?

Is it okay to sell the work of another to magicians?

Is it okay to expose the works of another to the general public?

How about incorporating someone's signature techinques for 'look/feel' into a routine and publishing it?

This really needs to be handled as a social issue.
Mundus vult decipi -per Caleb Carr's story Killing Time
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Postby Guest » 08/03/03 05:16 PM

Opie, I had two english lit majors who were also classically trained actors as parents, so my real name (Geoffrey Keith Latta) is not my fault. However, I don't think someone named Opie is really entitled to rag on me about my name.

Now on to real matters. I agree. What would you suggest we do? I'm serious here. Anyone want to post a list of the email addy's of these "officers" so hoi polloi like us can tell them what we want from what is supposed to be their leadership? Democracy. What an idea.

Best,

Gjeoff
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Postby Guest » 08/03/03 05:33 PM

Jon, I assume that's rhetorical, because you know the answers to those questions as well as I do.

"Is it okay to sell the work of another to magicians?"

(A.) Yes, but only with direct permission, otherwise if the work has fallen into the public domain and there is no one left alive to give permission. Preservation of good ideas and proper credit are valid reasons to pass them on in that circumstance.

"Is it okay to expose the works of another to the general public?"

No. Period. Unless (and I cannot think of a trick that meets this requirement) Condition A. (stated above) is met, and B., the work does not in any way draw on any currently or previously known theory, construction, principle, property or bloody anything that would compromise the secrecy of other magical effects.

In other words, no.

"How about incorporating someone's signature techinques for 'look/feel' into a routine and publishing it?"

See "A." I know I'm far from the only one, but some guys need to send me a check. And apologize. Publicly. And privately.

Best,

Geoff
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Postby opie » 08/03/03 05:35 PM

Geoff....

I really do not know how we got crosswise....I have no disagreements with you....

I really am a person who believes that we should fight for the rights of those who have the RIGHT to speak up for what is right....

I really believe that I have the right to the name of Knight of Right...........

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Postby Steve V » 08/03/03 05:48 PM

In the commercial side of magic I've seen people taking old ideas and 'making them new again', and that is fine and dandy. As soon as a routine or other product looks like it's a winner on some scale (I'm not sure what is considered a winner in the magic market) you can bet someone else will be releasing it in a slightly different version. Unfortunately it isn't usually an improvement but just an opportunity someone sees to get a piece of the pie. I believe that in business and in art one should give the same regards to others as they expect to receive. If someone feels its fine to take anothers idea that is on the market then they lose the opportunity to complain if it happens to them.

The problem is that when folks do step up to defend their products or creations or re-introductions the issues get more clouded still. I see Greg Wilson seems to have a version of the blister effect out which will cut into the market of the other fellows version. There were multiple versions of the multi-bill change, of the thing with the rattle in the ear, the Mona Lisa puzzle piece etc.. This is a small market, perhaps some courtesy between the guys bringing out items can make it less diluted and perhaps even produce, together, improvements rather than just a money grab.

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Postby Jonathan Townsend » 08/03/03 06:40 PM

Originally posted by Andy Martin:
...In your own mind you might well have rewritten the past so that you did the right thing, I still don't buy it.
Andy, Chance...

How are we going to do better if an attempt to TRY for better as a goal gets attacked. The ethical remains. The ad hominem distraction digression does little to help a cause of establishing a means of seeking assistance that includes the support of the SAM and IBM.

Do these organizations have an ethical code? Do they have a board or panel to which ethical issues can be brought? Who does one ask for help in these matters?
Mundus vult decipi -per Caleb Carr's story Killing Time
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Postby Guest » 08/03/03 06:43 PM

Originally posted by opie:
Geoff....

I really do not know how we got crosswise....I have no disagreements with you....

I'd say it was your seemingly flippant attitude in the Ogawa/Exposure thread. Maybe it was only seemingly flippant.

As to the subject at hand, ok, what are your ideas about what we can do about this in a practical sense? Seriously, I'm listening, and I'd bet others are too.

Best,

Geoff
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Postby Guest » 08/03/03 06:51 PM

Originally posted by opie:
Apparently, my name Opie is causing a problem with some regarding my right to say what I have to say....
No, it just ought'a disincline you to rag on the spelling of my name. That's all.

Best,

Geoff
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Postby Chance Wolf » 08/03/03 06:58 PM

Jonathan,
I agree. Let's move on to positive things. I will put some creative juices in motion and see what comes to mind regarding establishing some new forum/association of ethics and rights protection. Unfortunatley, it still comes down to personal choice on all levels and that can be the hardest to influence.
Take care,
Chance
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Postby Guest » 08/03/03 07:03 PM

Originally posted by Jonathan Townsend:
How are we going to do better if an attempt to TRY for better as a goal gets attacked. The ethical remains. The ad hominem distraction digression does little to help a cause of establishing a means of seeking assistance that includes the support of the SAM and IBM.
Johnathan you have a good point.

But if you don't believe the messenger then the message also starts to loose some credibility. Chance stands to gain by setting himself up as Mr. Ethics because he can sell more magic. His post is full of plugs for his company and his upcoming products.

I think until you get the money out of this issue then you will continue to have a problem. The real problem appears to me that many magicians (not all) will buy the cheapest version of an effect, even if they know its not the original, because its cheaper.

I don't know which came first: dealers selling knock offs for lower prices, or magicians demanding lower prices which forced the dealers to sell knock offs, or unethical dealers seeing that there was demand for cheaper products and stepping in. I do believe if more magicains demanded the originals then there would be less of a problem. But it is all to easy to couch under the cover of ignorance or the old "everyone is doing it."

I for one do what I can to just buy from the ethical dealers as far as I can determine, even when it means I can't buy some cool props that I would like to own.

Voting with my dollar in Texas.
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Postby Robert Allen » 08/03/03 07:07 PM

I'd like to think that the newer generations of magicians will come to grips with this "ethics problem", but I have my doubts, particularly given the reception a thread I started on this a while back got.

I recall the first attempt (at least in my recallable lifetime) when the MDA formed. I recall a dealer saying to me "well after joining the MDA I found out there's nothing anyone can do to me for creating a copy of someone elses trick."

Trust, but verify.

Keep your powder dry.

The primary problem is that patents are not cost effective to protect magic intellectual property (I.P.). Without patents, protections rely on the word of people, many of whom seem to be scum. As we've seen here already, credits and ownership fall victim to simple finger pointing.

Contracts and basic business sense seem foreign to the culture of magic. How many times have we heard of someone who was 'cheated out of' their inventions when they handed over the production tools before receiving payment? While my heard bleeds, that's just bad business. At age 10 or so I was cheated out of some comic books by a kid at school when I gave him the goods before getting payment. Live and learn.

I can't see why the SAM and/or IBM will get involved in this. I really can't see why anyone would expect them to, particularly given the history of magic, which is just a form of show business, and most people know how corrupt show business is.

I believe it likely that the best we can do is to maintain personal integrity, and exclude those whom we have firsthand knowledge of underhandedness. Hopefully human-networking will allow the transitivity of trust to some significant degree. But I have a hard time believing that ultimately the field of magic will change much over time. For no matter how much integrity the established professionals and hobbiests show, the continuing influx of newbies who have not yet had the importance of such integrity imprinted on them will continue to buy the ripoff tricks, trust the ripoff dealers, etc.
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Postby Guest » 08/03/03 07:08 PM

Originally posted by WolfsMagic:
Jonathan,
Unfortunatley, it still comes down to personal choice on all levels and that can be the hardest to influence.
I agree 100% with Chance. :)

This is really the biggest problem. Magician's choose to buy the cheaper products.
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Postby Richard Kaufman » 08/03/03 09:12 PM

I've just cleaned up some of the extraneous matter in this thread between Chance Wolf and Andy Martin.
Regarding doing a trick with fortune cookies where you have some sort of unique message inside, saw it dozens of years ago and am sure that was old news then. Calling it "Fortune Cookie Surprise" is about the most obvious title one could find, so I certainly wouldn't be surprised if someone else thought of it. I have no evidence that Diamond Jim Tyler likes to steal other people's stuff, so if he put out a trick with a fortune cookie called "Fortune Cookie Surprise" then I think he simply thought of the damn thing on his own and that wouldn't surprise me one bit.
Next matter, "Opie" is Opie's real name as far as I know, and it's easy to make jokes about it, but let's be adults and not do it. Ditto for the Geoff Latta's name, who probably would've had it easier as a kid if his parents had named him "Jeff" so kids at school didn't call him "Goff" or "Geeooff" and crap like that.
Expecting large organizations, as well as magazines like Genii and MAGIC, to get involved in the regular policing of originality of material is a wish that ain't gonna happen. It is not and CANNOT BE our job. I will repeat for the umpteenth time that it is the responsibility of the person who feels that he has been ripped off to take action against the individual who has done the ripping.
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Postby Chance Wolf » 08/03/03 09:15 PM

Thank you Richard. It is much appreciated.
I agree with your last post. I have no problem handling my own legal situations and controlling my creations. Otherwise, it is up to the consumer and in most cases they get an inferior product and lose in the end.
Take care,
Chance
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Postby Guest » 08/03/03 10:13 PM

Just to add my 1/2 cent in the discussion...I did see that somebody on ebay is selling an item very similar (if not exactly like) the "fortune cookie" effect. From what I remember about the auction listing...basically the guy had them made up in bulk, and was selling 'em by the Chinese "take-out" box full. Is this Diamond Jim doing this or ANOTHER person getting into the fray?

Steve Thomas
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Postby Guest » 08/03/03 11:58 PM

Originally posted by Richard Kaufman:
Ditto for the Geoff Latta's name, who probably would've had it easier as a kid if his parents had named him "Jeff" so kids at school didn't call him "Goff" or "Geeooff" and crap like that.
Now you know why I'm so cranky.

Best,

Geee-off
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Postby Bizzaro » 08/04/03 01:36 AM

What happened to ethics in general?

One word: Capitilism

All hail the mighty Monetary Unit.

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Postby Eric Rose » 08/04/03 03:30 AM

Steve Thomas - I can answer your question. The ebay posting has nothing to do with Diamond Jim or See-More Magic. I posted the cookies on ebay.

Back in March of this year I got a fortune cookie that had a website for customized cookies print on the back. It seemed like a great way to finally get the method for a trick that I've tried to make myself for almost 25 years. From my first failed batch of homemade cookies (recipe courtesy The Nancy Drew Cookbook) to following Jim Steinmeyer's changing fortunes in the cookie advice in MAGIC several years ago to doing switches like Penn and Teller suggested in their food book, I could never find a method that satisfied me. The website promised a mecca of customized cookies. At last my search was over. The problem? Minimum order was 500 cookies. I got 250 each of 2 different cards.

As an aside, I never saw Close's review of See-More's cookies in MAGIC. If I had, I wouldn't have been stuck with the extra cookies.

A buddy took some of the cookies and has been selling them in his magic shop since April. I thought I'd be clever and put them in a takeout box. I called them "Fortunate Circumstances" and included a really bad instruction sheet as homage to the bad instruction sheets of days gone by. My wife finally started hinting that the back bedroom of our house was not a good place to keep large boxes of fortune cookies, so I put some of the extra cookies up on ebay last week.

I was not aware of See-More's pre-invention. I never wanted to be the Cookie King of Indiana. I didn't even expect to break even on the cookies. I just wanted a method for the trick that had haunted me for almost 3 decades. As a result, I will not be putting any more cookies on ebay.

The funny thing is, the trick doesn't sell that well. My buddy sells a few boxes each month, but that's about it. No one has bid on the ebay cookies. Oh well.

As far as the ethics question, simultaneous invention happens. It happened to me. I don't feel any remorse over selling the cookies, but it isn't worth it to me to cause any bad feelings. If you will excuse me now, I need to go eat a couple hundred fortune cookies before my wife wakes up.
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Postby Guest » 08/04/03 03:37 AM

There will be ripoffs and exposure in magic as long as there is no EFFECTIVE enforcement.
WAM, SAM, IBM, and others can protest all they want but it isn't going to do any good!
What is needed is some sort of legal consequence to the ripoffs and exposure.
And that would require magicians being licensed, just like doctors, lawyers, dentists, architects, and so forth.
But that just won't happen!
So get used to it.
I've had my ideas (from my Showtime column in the Linking Ring magazine) ripped off and marketed without my permission.
(Actually, if these people would just ask, the answer would very likekly be yes.)
So, when a routine gets ripped off, I just come up with 10 others.
A question to all those who are complaining about ethics:
Would you be willing to have to pass a test, much like a driving test, to perform, sell, create, or collect magic?
Your own answer should bring this thread to a rapid close, since that's the ONLY way it could ever work.
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Postby opie » 08/04/03 04:41 AM

I believe I covered what can be done about the lack of ethics in the magic fraternity, but here it is again:

Magicians must stand together and use media such as this forum and magic magazines to voice displeasure at anything that is not right in our beloved profession/hobby.

Magicians must hold accountable those officers in organizations such as IBM and SAM to enforce standards of secrecy and ethics.

Magic clubs and organizations must support a central hound-dog organization such as WAM, which has its sole mission to maintain a high level of ethics in the magic world....

As I mentioned before, IBM and SAM have withdrawn their support of WAM, because a few officers are afraid that the organizations could be sued for supporting WAM. Duh!

All that said, the first thing that needs to be done is to get IBM and SAM to wholeheartedly support WAM and help that organization bring pressure to bear upon those who cross the line of ethical conduct.....It is therefore up to each individual member of IBM and SAM to express to the officers that they must support WAM, because its power is dependent on that support....

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Postby Randy DiMarco » 08/04/03 09:06 AM

The only way the rip offs will stop is if magicians stop buying the rip offs. The problem is that I know many, many, MANY magicians who will buy a ripped off trick, even if they know if it is a rip off, if it is $1.00 cheaper than the original.
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Postby Guest » 08/04/03 11:11 AM

One thing that I seem to see here is a distinct lack of response from Diamond Jim and his crew, unless Eric is working for him - if so, I apologize and will stand in the corner and commit shame.

Without a response from the people directly involved, all of this fussing and fuming amounts to nothing more than a tempest in a cauldron.

Someone call Diamond Jim and ask him to respond.

I mean, there are issues here that transcend the obvious, such as copyright, trademark (if any) and whether the trick is an exact duplicate of the one originally produced or not.

I have yet to see verification that it is. And I don't mean from an ad description, but from someone who has SEEN the material and can make an informed judgement.

"Innocent until PROVEN guilty."

At least it was until Ashcroft boiled down the Bill of Rights to just one - "You have the right to remain silent..." ;)

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Postby Steve Hook » 08/04/03 12:13 PM

Originally posted by Richard Kaufman:
Calling it "Fortune Cookie Surprise" is about the most obvious title one could find, so I certainly wouldn't be surprised if someone else thought of it.
Sorry, but that's a stretch, Richard.
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Postby Robert Allen » 08/04/03 12:40 PM

I don't see how you can say "that's a stretch Richard". A preliminary search on "surprise" at Hank Lee,s netted me these, and there's probably more around:

Top Hat Surprise
Radio Surprise
Pineapple Surprise
Black and White Surprise
Blue J Surprise
Notepad Surprise
Shotglass Surprise

Vikings site has:

Kabuki Surprise

I checked Owens, MagicInc and Stevens and didn't get any hits, but I got tired of looking. The basic rule here seems to be, call your new trick "X Surprise" where 'X' = the name of the primary item used in the trick. Even with a pedantic name like Fortune Cookie Surprise, I mean, what else do you find in a fortune cookie BUT a surprise?
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Postby Guest » 08/04/03 05:03 PM

Originally posted by Richard Kaufman:
I've just cleaned up some of the extraneous matter in this thread between Chance Wolf and Andy Martin.
Thanks Richard. I apologize for the extraneous matter ... and to Chance too. He is a fine creator of magic and I think I have held a grudge against him a bit too long.
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Postby Chance Wolf » 08/04/03 06:02 PM

Andy,
Apology accepted.
I think if we, as magicians, creators, manufacturers and dealers strive for a mutual respect and understanding for the livelihoods we ALL are trying to maintain, that it will be a beginning to ending the problem of bad ethics.
Take care,
Chance Wolf
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Postby Guest » 08/05/03 10:00 PM

C'mon, guys, follow the money. People who are in the business of selling magic will sell all the magic they can get their hands on and let the creators fend for themselves UNLESS it's an effect from a big creator that's being ripped off.

You probably aren't going to see an ad for a non-Steinmeyer Interlude in Genii or Magic, because the mags count on guy's like Jim's continued goodwill. So the idea of "It is not and cannot be our job" really depends on WHO is doing the complaining.

The dozen-odd guys at the top will watch each other's backs. Everyone else is on their own. But no one is surprised by this, are they? I mean, this is showbiz we're talking about.

TP
Guest
 

Postby Guest » 08/05/03 10:10 PM

Originally posted by TedPabst:
I mean, this is showbiz we're talking about.

TP
Max: "That's it, we'll kill the actors"
Leo: "Kill the actors?!?!? Max, you can't kill the actors. They're human beings!"
Max: "Really? Have you ever eaten with one?"


Mel Brooks, "The Producers"

Best,

Geoff
Guest
 

Postby Larry Horayne » 08/06/03 05:29 PM

Magic, hell -- what happened to ethics--PERIOD!

www.SandySinger.com :mad:
Larry Horayne
 
Posts: 78
Joined: 07/20/08 09:22 AM

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