You do NOT have to tolerate ripoffs!

Discuss the latest news and rumors in the magic world.

Postby Guest » 10/14/05 05:07 AM

From Doug D. Bush IM NOT A GRACIOUS WINNER"

The Whit Haydn & Bob Sheets issue concerning the unauthorized use of my Doctor Beaumont 3-Shell Game booklet /dialogue has been settled out of court, thanks to shrewd procedures and Haydn/Sheets weak-kneed terror at being caught. The checks have cleared the banks, I have their signed surrender and they have my signed release.
Haydn /Sheets, amidst enormous transparent huffing and posturing to pacify their critics, have faced reality, folded their busted bobtail straight and have paid off monies PLUS my attorney fees as well to satisfy their transgressions. I WIN! (They can save the delusional horsedung referring to great respect , due diligence, good intentions, contributions, and we didnt have to give in for morons.) Their counselors, if they even had the sense to contact any, must be total idiots to ever advise them to fork over the loot without a fight.
Haydn/Sheets..I warned you this would be a lesson you would never forget and that I had the stone cold brazillians in this match. Haydn, since you seem to be the mouthpiece for that outfit, I will ask you this. Did you honestly think that a pompous, no gamble, narcissist, hayseed like you would ever be able to air-gun a locksmith from Atlantas southside streets? I had you in the one hole from the gate, boyI am as vindictive as they come.
Now I will once again return to my business. However, I have left my legacy in magic. Never again will any of you have to tolerate being ripped off by shortstops. I have SET THE PRECEDENT. All thats required is to have the guts to employ the services of an Intellectual Property attorney, turn the matter over to him/her, and watch the so-called big shots scurry for cover with their tails between their legs.
There are only a few people in magic for whom I have respect. These men always had an encouraging word for me and wise advice when I was about to be ambushed.
Those areJohnny Murray, Tom Mullica, Neil Foster, Howard Vanderbeck, Curtis Jackson, Mike Rogers, J.C. Doty, Jim Maney, and Bill Spooner.all are/were decent people, and top action players as well. While I paid more in taxes from trade show work than most magicians earned, the majority of the rest still held me up to the harsh light of twisted ridicule and snickered like girlie men in their little cliques. To that group I say this.I do not forget.
As for any other shortstops out there, keep this lesson I have taught Haydn/Sheets in mind. You mess with the bull, you gonna get the horn. And just to REALLY piss you off, I am going to outlive most of you.
Doug D. Bush aka The All Time Non-Stop King Sonofabitch
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Postby Robert Allen » 10/14/05 07:37 AM

LOL, looks like Busby has some competition for strange behavior.
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Postby Guest » 10/14/05 07:46 AM

Well, I'm glad we got that cleared up.
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Postby Guest » 10/14/05 09:10 AM

Wow...that may be the meanest man I've ever encountered on line in magic. Do you think he'll be joining Whits forum?
Steve V <---swears to God he won't ever...EVER... publish anything by Doug Bush.
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Postby Wolfgang » 10/14/05 09:17 AM

Did you say the matter was settled? It sounds like you are still on the warpath...... :confused:
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Postby Guest » 10/14/05 09:31 AM

Congrats Doug. Looks like you're the big whiner in all this.
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Postby Gord » 10/14/05 10:10 AM

Forgive my ignorance but while the post is filled with the rantings of a sore winner, he doesn't actually say what Hayden/sheets did/stole from him.
Perhaps he could explain the situation to us, for clarity sake.

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Postby CJJANIS » 10/14/05 11:00 AM

I notice Doug you just signed up Oct 05, did you do this just to rant? If so please spare us!
Nobody likes rip offs, but having meet both of the guys, and your admitting they paid you without
help from Lawyers, sound like they did what most would do avoid an expensive fight, without admitting any wrong doing. Very common and happens all the time, next time Bob pay them and ask for a gag order, so we do not have hear the rantings of a sore winner :confused:
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Postby Pete Biro » 10/14/05 11:01 AM

Having lunch with Whit today and will see what he say... :whack:
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Postby Guest » 10/14/05 11:01 AM

Since I know nothing I'll explain it with less detail that those with knowledge.
School for Scoundrels put out a DVD on the shell game, included was a PFD of a routine by Doug Bush released in the 70's, something Dr. Beaumont. Prior to the release Whit and crew tried to locate Doug Bush via searches and on line request, they were not able to track him down nor confirm he was alive. They checked with their lawyer who said they were safe to use it and they earmarked a couple grand for Bush if found or his family. I absolutely believe Whit and crew did this.

A magician who competes against the S4S saw the PFD and was successful in tracking down Mr. Bush, who you can see is a charmer. Mr. Bush went into overdrive while Whit and crew tried to be upstanding and the magician I won't name (because I do like him) tried to buy the routine for a couple hundred bucks from Mr. Bush but failed to do so.

End of story is Whit got a lot of hassles and finally Mr. Bush took the money and all was well in the world.
That is basically it until the above post.
Steve V
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Postby Jeff Eline » 10/14/05 11:13 AM

Originally posted by doug bush:
Their counselors, if they even had the sense to contact any, must be total idiots to ever advise them to fork over the loot without a fight.
...maybe because they were trying to do the right thing.

You can't have it both way: Criticize them for 'ripping you off' AND chastise them for paying so easily and not fighting.
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Postby Steve Mills » 10/14/05 11:21 AM

Don't I recall that one of the criticisms was Doug Bush attended church with a well known magician and could have been easily located.

What church is that?
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Postby Mojo-Man » 10/14/05 11:28 AM

What church is that?

http://www.churchofsatan.com/ :mad:
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Postby John Wilson » 10/14/05 11:46 AM

Congradulations. I'm glad you've left your "legacy in magic"...


P.S.-Who are you again?
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Postby Guest » 10/14/05 11:49 AM

He attended a church with a magician we all know and love in a lil' town in Georgia. The magician in question was not aware that Mr. Bush was a magician because, I'm sure this will surprise you, he doesn't make his magicianship known to many and isn't the friendliest of fellows to other magicians.
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Postby Guest » 10/14/05 12:35 PM

Thank you for the lesson ...

As a martial arts author, I have intellectual property stolen all of the time. I truly empathize with Doug Bush.

He was wronged, and should be compensated.

But the lesson that I learned from this thread is ... only talk about your 'coup' with other folks who are creative enough to invent, and would understand your point of view.

All those who learn from the creative efforts of others will label you as a "whiner."

Save the boasting of your accomplishment for those in your camp.

Even if the 'uncreatives' pretend to understand your point of view, they don't really. Maybe Doug shouldn't have been so vocal -- he is rubbing it in too much for most. Still, the guy was wronged ....

I applaud his efforts.

Of course, I think of the 'Scoundrels' as small potatoes ... I'd love to see what someone could do against the big-guys-who-don't-respect-the-cretive-thoughts-of-others.

Now, that would be something interesting to witness.

I don't know Doug, nor had I ever heard of him before this "incident," but I'd still like to congratulate him on his win.

Kip
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Postby Steve Mills » 10/14/05 12:42 PM

Just a thought -

I don't suppose there's any way to actually verify this guy is who he says he is?

There's nothing in the post that is not readily available, except the "locksmith" reference - and that may be something well known to others.

With the Internet, you seldom know for sure.
The more I learn about people, the more I like my dog. – Mark Twain
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Postby Guest » 10/14/05 12:58 PM

Based on emails seen by Doug that is pretty much his style of writting so either it is him, and it sure reads like him, or a great impersonation.

Kip. The reason the S4S wanted to use the routine was because it is very well structured and obtainable by those first doing the shells. They made efforts to locate Mr. Bush but were not able to do so. They then checked with lawyers if, being they were unable to locate Mr. Bush, they could use the material. Based on current law they could do so w/out permission or compensation. They put that idea aside and put away a very nice pay off to Mr. Bush or family should they show up and on the DVD put out an additional request for help in locating him or his family. They did not scurry around in the darkness but were very up front. Once Mr. Bush was located rather than informing the S4S Mr. Bush was told he was ripped off which, as you can see, set this charming fellow off. The tipper offered between $100 and $200 for the rights to the material, out of print for 30 years. Compare this to the $2000 that S4S had put aside, and keep in mind this is for a document not seen in years and not likely to appear again. S4S tried to be polite and very kind and received a load of BS in return. They remained on the high ground and once Mr. Bush realized that the $2k was a good deal he took it and S4S carried on. To compare them with thieves who may have printed your works w/out any attempt to purchase the chance to do so isn't fair. I think you would appreciate being treated by your pals in martial arts publishing as S4S tried in this case.
Steve V
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Postby Jonathan Townsend » 10/14/05 01:00 PM

Originally posted by Kip:
Thank you for the lesson ...I'd love to see what someone could do against the big-guys-who-don't-respect-the-cretive-thoughts-of-others.

Now, that would be something interesting to witness...
I don't know Kip. Even when a case is clear as day, magicians have ways of not seeing things that even most children recognize. Right and wrong being one of those things at times. Open to suggestions.
Mundus vult decipi
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Postby Guest » 10/14/05 01:04 PM

I don't know. Kid 1 takes ball kid 2 had left on playground, kid 2 has screaming fit, kid 1 gives ball back, kid 2 kicks kid 1 in the balls and rubs dog crap on him....is kid 1 the evil?

I don't think this is a good example of people ripping of other magicians. I know you created the coins across in hands theme and others have used it. How many of them tried to get your permission and also pay you for the use of the theme? In this case that is what happened.
Steve V
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Postby Jonathan Townsend » 10/14/05 01:13 PM

Originally posted by Steve V':
is kid 1 the evil?...
I wish it were that simple Steve. Magicdom encourages folks to let loose their inner children which as you pointed out can act in beastly ways. It also asks that we treat each other as adults in matters of property and provenance. Here is where we get into a great conflict and a difficult situation to draw parallels.

Those in magicdom wish to enjoy the magical thinking of children yet be respected as adults. A a most basic conflict in internal drives and interests whenever real issues are at stake.

Where there are real children involved, there are responsible adults around to pay for the damages and work out conflicts. In magicdom we have neither. Just old lost boys using the tools of adults in childish ways.

As to my trick, I simply asked folks to put down that fan of coins and sit tight for a little bit while I got the full provenance of the thing written up so all could work from a solid foundation. Needless to say the lost boys just laughed. May they be forever young.
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Postby Guest » 10/14/05 01:50 PM

Doug Bush is lucky to have been paid at all. He is crowing now, claiming victory, when all he got was what he was going to get anyway! He didn't WIN anything! He wasn't even in a fight! And, had he done this BEFORE the check cleared, I doubt it would have. Whit and Bob had no legal responsibility to Doug AT ALL. They are decent, honest merchants whose reputations speak loudly for them. Doug Bush is evidently exactly what he claims to be - someone from the streets...

Best, PSC
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Postby Guest » 10/14/05 01:51 PM

Originally posted by pchosse:
Doug Bush is lucky to have been paid at all. He is crowing now, claiming victory, when all he got was what he was going to get anyway! He didn't WIN anything! He wasn't even in a fight! And, had he done this BEFORE the check cleared, I doubt it would have. Whit and Bob had no legal responsibility to Doug AT ALL. They are decent, honest merchants whose reputations speak loudly for them. Doug Bush is evidently exactly what he claims to be - someone from the streets...

Best, PSC
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Postby Guest » 10/14/05 01:52 PM

I'm with you Jon, and I'm with Kip. The problem is the shell issue is a bad example. I would love to see your finished thoughts on the coin theme you developed. Heck, I don't know Bob Sheets or Whit Haydn but I certainly have never heard anything even remotely bad about either gentleman other than from the un-named magician and Mr. Bush.
Steve V
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Postby Marco Pusterla » 10/14/05 02:04 PM

I'm not involved in this discussion, but I had been contacted by one of the parties involved some time ago, in my quality of collector and "expert" (such a big word for such a small field like ours) in the matter.

I can say that Mr. D. Bush is the author of the manuscript in question (which had been published under a pseudonym and without a copyright notice...) and that, to my understanding, Mr. Haydin was satisfied the person he and S4S paid their money to, was the legitimate author of the manuscript subject of this matter.

On another popular magic forum, whose name reminds one of a hot beverage, you should find a thread on this very subject, with posts by both parties involved (both producers of literature and training material on the "Three Shell Game") which will explain in greater detail the whole matter.

While I have the utmost respect for "Dr. Beaumont's" routine, I think the matter of an out-of-court payment is of no interest whatsoever to most readers of this forum: the alleged "stolen" PDF is no longer available and the parties have, to my knowledge, reached an agreement; therefore the post that started this thread is just a pathetic way to blow one's own horn without giving anything to magic...

Onwards...
Marco Pusterla - http://www.mpmagic.com

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Postby Steve Mills » 10/14/05 02:14 PM

Originally posted by Marco Pusterla:
......the alleged "stolen" PDF is no longer available and the parties have, to my knowledge, reached an agreement.......
Onwards...
Is that true? I had assumed that the payment gave them the "right" to continue to include the pdf on the DVD(CD?), but I never actually saw that.

sm
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Postby Guest » 10/14/05 02:54 PM

I think they pulled the DVD from market until the agreement was made and I would seriously doubt it has been re produced minus the PFD. I hope not.
Steve V
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Postby Pete Biro » 10/14/05 02:55 PM

Whit clarified the whole story at lunch, and it echoes what many have written here.

He and Sheets wanted a simple routine, tried to find the creator, found out it was public domain, set aside money anyway and when someone told Bush about it and his presence was made known to SFS they offered him the money. He refused it and went to a lawyer. Said lawyer found out the material was not protected, public domain and tols Bush to take the money.

His attitude acually cost him.
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Postby Steve Hook » 10/14/05 03:01 PM

No one has posted this factoidal reference, so here ya go:

Whit looking for Mr. Bush in \'04
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Postby Jeff Haas » 10/14/05 04:11 PM

If he wanted credit for it, why did he publish it under a fictitious name?
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Postby Mark Collier » 10/14/05 04:57 PM

Someone smells like a scoundrel. I'm guessing it's not Whit.
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Postby Guest » 10/14/05 06:35 PM

Well, I really had hoped this whole affair was laid to rest. Obviously, Mr. Bush is still worked up over things, and I can't really blame him, the way things were framed for him by others.

I think that the advice that Mr. Bush is offering is really not very good advice. In this situation the actions he took cost him a lot of money.

Our lawyers told us in Nov 2004 that the document in question was public domain, and that Mr Bush had no ownership rights in the document at all. They said that we or anyone else could use the material any way they saw fit. This was also the opinion of the legal department of a major commercial publishing company.

The document was published in 1975 without a publishing date, copyright notice, and without the author or publisher's name. According to the rules before 1978, this put it immediately into the public domain. Even had this not been the case, and the copyright notice had been in effect, the routine and pamphlet would have gone out of copyright in 2003, and would have had to be registered and renewed at that point. It was not.

So we were completely satisfied in November 2004 that we had all necessary rights to publish the document and routine whenever we wished.

Bob Sheets, Chef Anton and myself talked it over, and decided to continue looking for Mr. Bush anyway. Sheets had spent four years looking unsuccessfully for Mr. Bush, talking to everyone he knew in magic from Georgia--Dan Garrett, Charles Pecor, and many others. None of them knew what happened to Doug Bush, and no one had heard anything from him since around 1978. Several people told Bob that they had heard he had died.

I put up a search notice here on the Genii forum, and on Magic Cafe. I did a couple of internet name searches, and only found one Doug Bush in Atlanta, a Doug Bush, Jr. I called that number every day for two weeks, and never got an answer or an answering machine.

My lawyer said that the best way to locate him might be to publish the routine and let Bush or his heirs contact us.

So we taught his routine on our DVD as the beginner's routine upon which all of our original moves, ruses and subtleties would be layered. I wanted to make sure that Bob's work on the presentation of Doug's routine and Doug Bush's work were clearly delineated. So I decided to publish the entire 14 page manuscript of Doug's routine on the DVD in a pdf file.

At the end of the routine, we put a notice saying that the routine was in public domain, but that we were still looking for Doug Bush or his heirs, and asking that anyone who knew where to locate either of these, help get us in touch with Doug Bush or his family.

We named Doug D. Bush as the real author of the piece, rather than the imaginary Dr. Beaumont. We also credited Doug Bush for the basic routine on the rolling credits to the DVD.

We decided that we would put aside $3000.00, $1500 from S4S and $1500 from Bob Sheets for Bush's heirs should they be found.

This figure was arrived at by thinking what a big name magician would likely be paid by a publisher for making a teaching DVD of one or more routines.

We thought it was more than generous, and simply a gesture of respect to someone who we all thought had contributed greatly to the shell game literature.

Even though we did not need to pay anything legally, we thought that magic ethics should go beyond the copyright laws and show due respect for the creators.

A competitor of ours, Andrew Pinard, was able to locate Mr. Bush and offered him a ridiculous and insulting amount for the exclusive rights to the routine.

Mr. Bush was insulted and angered and refused to talk to him again. Why Pinard thought it would be worthwhile to buy the rights to a routine that was public domain and had just been taught and published on our DVD is a mystery to us, but the result was that Mr. Bush wouldn't speak to him anymore.

Pinard then e-mailed and told Bush that the routine wasn't really worth any more than $200 because it had already been published without permission, and he then gave the information to Bush about us and our production.

Bush contacted Bob, and Bob and I, not knowing about Andrew Pinard's interference, responded with enthusiasm to having located him. We sent him more than $200 worth of S4S DVD's, shells, books, chains and other products to give him an idea of how we operated and who we were.

We told him we wanted to pay him for his routine, and offered him $2000. We didn't want to antagonize him by telling him that his routine was out of copyright, and figured that he would put up a counter offer, and we would negotiate up to the original $3000 we had planned to give him.

But Bush refused our offer and refused to negotiate or even talk with us. His harsh and curt e-mails are published on the Magic Cafe thread. He told us to talk "only" to his lawyers.

Well, at that point we told him that the $2000 offer was a take it or leave it thing, and that if he insisted on bringing lawyers into the negotiation, then that offer was off the table.

His lawyers called us, and wanted to know if the offer was still available. We said it was. They asked us very nicely if we would consider paying for Mr. Bush's legal fees ($500) which we agreed to do, since we wanted to try to get Mr. Bush to agree to accept the money, and to get the whole issue behind us.

We also offered Mr. Bush another $2000 to let us video tape his performance of the routine to put on a later DVD. This he refused.

We were being mercilessly attacked on the internet by bloggers who called me all kinds of things, from hypocrite to unprintable names of all kinds.

We were unable to respond because of the ongoing negotiations, and our reputations were being systematically attacked and shredded by a handful of mean-spirited anonymous bloggers. We wanted to get the whole thing behind us.

Bush agreed to the terms, accepted our check, and signed a release giving us full rights to use his material any way we wanted for any time into the future.

This of course is useless, because Andrew Pinard and anyone else here can print and sell the manuscript in question without legal problems since it has been both out of print and out of copyright for thirty years.

By refusing to talk on the phone with Bob and I, who are fans and promoters of Mr. Bush's work, by refusing friendly negotiations and going to his "high-powered lawyers," Mr. Bush cost himself $1000, and saved us $500.

I think it is a much better idea for anyone who feels he has been wronged to try to work things out in a friendly way with those who they feel have wronged them first, and only go to lawyers as a very last resort.

We are not upset by Mr. Bush's rants, and feel that he was really the victim in all of this, not of our doing, but a victim of our competitor whom we believe sought to manipulate him and create a scandal which would have forced our DVD off the market and damaged our company's reputation just as our competitor's DVD on the shell game was going to come out.

Mr. Bush's hurt feelings and antagonism toward my company is a result of the way the whole situation was framed for him by Mr. Pinard.

We are very sorry for all of this mess, and really had hoped that finding Mr. Bush would have ended up in further opportunities to promote him and his wonderful work that has been forgotten for so many years.

What we had hoped would have happened didn't because of the interference in our business relationship with Mr. Bush by people outside of the situation--both our competitor Pinard, and the bloggers whose vitriol and bombast before they had the facts has been matched by the extent of their silence on the issue since the facts have been revealed.

I apologize for this long post, but I feel that our friends and customers in the magic community deserve to know the whole story from our side as well as the distorted and weird version of events that was promulgated among the bloggers by Mr. Pinard.

Thanks for taking the time to read this. I can't imagine why anyone would want to read more than this, but the thread on the Magic Cafe that was mentioned above contains the whole story from our side, and from Andrew Pinard.

It also contains all the correspondence between Bob Sheets, Mr. Bush, and myself. If you really find this worth the time, all that you could possibly need to know to make a decision about this case is right there.
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Postby Pete Biro » 10/14/05 06:57 PM

You should see the rude email I got from this Mr. Bush... argh... :whack:
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Postby Guest » 10/14/05 07:06 PM

Mr Bush's post above is also a violation of the agreement we made when he accepted our offer. This letter from Mr Bush's lawyer is dated Oct 4, 2005:

Mr. Haydn and Mr. Sheets:
Doug Bush informs me that he will make no more public statements nor post any more blogs regarding this matter.
Hopefully this will conclude this matter once and for all.
Thanks,
Russ
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Mr. Bush seems to be a pretty cantankerous bird. He may truly outlive us all. But because I am convinced that the work that the School for Scoundrels is doing will live many years longer than that, Mr Bush's work on the shells will survive us all as well. He may not think that is important, but we do.
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Postby Pete Biro » 10/14/05 08:27 PM

Here's what I just got via email. At this point, for me, case is closed. His message follows:

Listen you...
THINK for a change, instead of pontificating. My attorney fees got paid too..I WIN! (and who said anything about how much??. Actually it was only 20 bucks..I just like drilling so-called "street players" and then laughing about it.)
God I know you hate it....I know it just burns your a*s. And I LOVE IT!
The madder you magicians get, the better I like it.
Live with it, chump.
Douglas Bush

Me again... Douglas: I am not mad at all, I just feel sorry for you and your attitude. :(
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Postby Pete McCabe » 10/14/05 09:03 PM

Whit:

As Cheng Man-Ching, master of the five excellences, once said, "one must be kind to blind men." You're taking this to quite the extreme -- Cheng would be proud.


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Postby Terry_Holley » 10/14/05 09:48 PM

It is amazing to me that just 2 nights ago I pulled my copy of "The Famous 3 Shell Game: An in-depth study on the art of humor and prestidigitation...'The Fobidden Secrets of the 3 Shells..'as presented by: Dr. Beaumont in his *Great* Southeasten Medicine Show & Tent Revival" off the shelf.

Then tonight I come across this thread!

I purchased this sometime around 1974-75. The $3 sticker is still on the cover. I always wondered who Henry Beaumont was, and I pondered this again the other night before I came across the revelation! The 13 page booklet has no copyright and no publisher.

In my opinion based on Whit's explanation, he and Bob went way beyond the "second mile" to market this routine with integrity.

By the way, it is a good, basic routine!

Terry
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Postby Guest » 10/14/05 10:18 PM

Actually, to add a little bit of final polish to what was said:

If you reprint something in the public domain and someone else (Normally the author or the estate) decides to get all "Locksmith and Atlanta" on you, telling you it isn't public domain, congratulations.

That person is guilty of a felony. See, when something is truly Public Domain, it belongs to everyone. It's like someone saying Whit can't drive on a road, breathe the air or enjoy a National Park. It's truly public.

I don't have the cite, offhand, but for those of you who are gluttons for this stuff, there's a high-level Intellectual property mailing list called CNI-Copyright out there.

Anyhow. Well played Whit.

-Phil

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Postby Wolfgang » 10/14/05 10:20 PM

After spending almost 30 minutes and reading the whole topic on the magic cafe and Mr. Pinnards attempt to soften his role I somehow feel reminded of "Southfork Ranch" Mr. Pinnard might have even better than good ol' JR and that surprises me beyond words.
I think after the smoke settles Bob Sheets and Whit Hayden truly come out ahead.....
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Postby Richard Kaufman » 10/15/05 12:39 AM

I'm currently in Bangkok, Thailand, and even at this great distance I can smell a kook.
Yes, the booklet in question is in public domain.
I think that what Whit Hayden and Bob Sheets have done is far beyond any generosity called for.
All points of view now established and facts explained. This thread is closed.
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