WHEEL SEE ABOUT THIS

Discuss the latest news and rumors in the magic world.

Postby Larry Horayne » 10/02/03 08:19 AM

British magician's pistol trick could be his last
And you thought Temptation Island was in poor taste. Britains Channel 4 will televise a live game of Russian roulette by magician Derren Brown on Sunday. Brown will have an assistant load a bullet into one chamber of a .348 Smith & Wesson revolver. Brown will point it at his head, firing when he thinks that the chamber is empty. He says he plans to point the gun away from him to fire the shot that he thinks is the real bullet. But should Browns chamber sense be off, and he accidentally fires the bullet into his head, viewers wont get to see it. Channel 4, which air the stunt on a slight delay, will switch to a blank screen with a message saying what happened. Channel 4 doesnt seem to mind the controversy. An autopsy that it aired sparked more than 100 complaints earlier this year.
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Postby Richard Kaufman » 10/02/03 12:43 PM

This is a trick, and merely a different version of the Bullet Catching. Derren Brown will not blow his brains out, I can assure you.
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Postby Dustin Stinett » 10/02/03 02:24 PM

Jim Steinmeyer has a videotape of T.A. Waters performing this effect for British television. I cannot recall if it was a pilot tape, or if the show actually aired. I do remember what a great performance it was.

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Postby Dave Egleston » 10/02/03 02:58 PM

Doesn't Larry Becker do this in every show he performs - He uses a blank if I remember right - He does it at the end of his show - so I was barely awake when he performed it

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Postby Richard Kaufman » 10/02/03 06:06 PM

Dave, that was cold.
Funny, but cold.
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Postby Pete Biro » 10/02/03 09:41 PM

Fox news crawl (words at bottom of screen) said NBC will broadcast the Russian Roulette act this Sunday. Hmmmmmmmm :eek:
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Postby Michael Jay » 10/03/03 06:09 AM

He uses a blank if I remember right
Just to let you know, you can be killed by putting a gun to your head, even if it is only a blank being fired. The percussion of the blank to the temple is enough to cause a hemorage in the brain. The best example I can give would be Brandon Lee (son of Bruce Lee) who, on a movie set, was goofing around and used a blank gun to shoot himself in the head. It killed him.

Simply put, guns are dangerous. In the US, more people are killed accidentally with "unloaded" guns than are with loaded guns. I am not against guns, only against people who don't understand them owning them.

We have seen, throughout the history of magic, that when it comes to firearms, no amount of preparation guarantees, 100%, that a tragedy will not occur. Regardless of Brown's ability to control the situation, there is always the outside chance that something will go terribly wrong and that this demonstration will end in his death. I believe the count of magicians who've proved this to be a baker's dozen (or, is it more?).

I assume that all possible contingencies have been seen to in order to ensure that Brown will not be in any harm's way. However, when it comes to firearms, the possibility is ALWAYS present that the performer will get shot. To believe otherwise is to have total ignorance of firearms.

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Postby Chris Aguilar » 10/03/03 07:22 AM

Michael,

Excellent point. Many years ago, there was an up and coming actor named Jon Erik Hexum who playfully put a gun loaded with blanks to his head and fired. The impact crushed his skull and he died soon after.

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Postby Ian Kendall » 10/03/03 08:42 AM

Hello,

Chris and Michael have crossed lines a wee bit. Jon Eric Hexum (not sure of spelling) was the actor playing Russian Roulette with a blank, on the set of his TV show (about a soldier/stuntman/investigator person). He was (reportedly) trying to impress some extras...

Brandon Lee died in a less than happy accident; on a night shoot the crew needed to have a close up of a loaded revolver. The Armourer was not available (or there were no dummy rounds, I forget which) so someone had the idea of pulling the slug out of the casing and cleaning out the powder before replacing the slug - dummy round.

In the take the bad guy actor pointed the pistol at Brandon and fired. What people did not know was that there was _just_ enough powder left in the casing to push the (slightly loosened) slug out of the chamber and into the barrel of the pistol. Also, possibly due to fatigue or negligence, noone checked the 'dummy round' when the pistol was unloaded and reloaded with blanks. Noone noticed that the slug was missing.

In the next take the Bad Guy Actor fired the pistol with a blank, but since the slug was already in the barrel it was propelled towards Brandon and he collapsed. I seem to remember reading that it took a few moments to realise that he was not acting...

Either way, firearms are dangerous things, and not to be fooled with.

I do not believe Derren is a fool, so I'm not too concerned.

Take care, Ian
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Postby Rob Signs » 10/03/03 09:39 AM

In the book "Twelve Have Died" the number of people listed as having died doing the bullet catch is, I believe, 19.
(In my opinion, the most tragic was the magician who did the bullet catch with his son, there was a mix up, and he shot and killed his son on stage.)
I've see the Larry Becker version and to me it was a bit strange. While I agree that guns are dangerous at all times, I'm sure Derren Brown has "covered all his bases." At least I hope so.
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Postby Guest » 10/03/03 11:19 AM

About blank guns: I remember going to a Western-themed amusement park that had scheduled gun-fights, the stunt-actors created. The sherriff/M.C., would ask the the crowd to stay put, as even the blanks were dangerous, and he would shot a paper bag that disintegrated.
A word about Larry Becker: A fine gentleman, in his book he notes close encounters,performing his Russian Roulette, that were too close. More should know that Mr. Becker and his wife April, have unrelentingly been very dedicated to helping people with referring them for cancer-prevention and treatment. I know personally of those they have helped by their giving information/referrals to qualified sources, hospitals, research centers. Very dedicated, caring, positive-helping people, are the Beckers.
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Postby Guest » 10/04/03 04:51 AM

Guns and tigers are potentially lethal.

That's the main part of their audience attraction.

If we'd conducted a poll a few days ago, I don't know who would have been deemed to be taking the bigger risk - Derren Brown or Roy Horn.

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Postby Michael Jay » 10/04/03 08:31 AM

Brandon Lee died in a less than happy accident; on a night shoot the crew needed to have a close up of a loaded revolver. The Armourer was not available (or there were no dummy rounds, I forget which) so someone had the idea of pulling the slug out of the casing and cleaning out the powder before replacing the slug - dummy round.
I don't know where you got this information, but in no way does this meet with any kind of reality. That's the problem when discussing firearms, there is a lot of ignorance on the subject.

The fact of the matter is, a slug cannot be extracted from a brass case without a specialized tool for the job. No, you cannot do it with two pairs of pliers, either, so don't suggest it. Assuming that pliers are used, the casing will be destroyed and you'll never get the slug seated back on it, let alone put the mangled casing back in the gun's chamber. The facts stated in the quote are impossible and any gun smith or bullet reloader will tell you that this is a fact (I am both).

A primer alone will not have the power to push a slug through a gun barrel and any powder residue may serve to push the slug through the barrel, but the slug will have the velocity of about a half an inch per second (in other words, that slug will have a hard time going two feet in the air and, if it hits you, it wouldn't even sting). And, that assumes that you could actually extract the slug from the casing, which you can't.

Had the armorer been on site, and able to extract the slug from the casing, the primer also would have been extracted. Still, I can't see any armorer allowing such a thing as a real gun on the premises, even with dummy loads.

Facts are facts - no matter what steps you take to ensure that the gun can safely be loaded and dry fired while aiming at your temple, it will never be 100% safe. Full stop.

Mike.
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Postby Robert Allen » 10/04/03 10:03 AM

Mike, with all due respect, you are mistaken. I've been shooting all my life, reload black powder and smokeless, and have done various stupid things with guns and yet survived, so I feel qualified to comment :)

1) The projectile part of a bullet can be removed with pliers just fine. It's easier with long pointy rifle bullets than short stubby pistol bullets, but particularly if they are lead bullets it's easily done w/out damage to the case if you pay attention. I do NOT recommend doing it, but it's doable. I've done it a number of times. If it's a lead bullet then you will indeed damage it, but if it's jacketed you will only have some scratches on the ogive of the projectile, which cold be polished/sanded out if it was really important that the (movie) shot required that the projetile end be shown up close.

2) I've never read the complete results of the Brandon Lee investigation, but my understanding from what I have read is this: a primer pushed the projectile into the barrel where it remained unnoticed. Then, later, using that same gun with blanks, the blanks had enough power to push the bullet out of the barrel as normal and shoot Brandon Lee. I'm surprised they didnt' have a gun with the barrel partially blocked for use with blanks as is sometimes done (the blockage being a "BFA" or blank firing adaptor, and welded and threaded in place).

3) I completely agree with the posters here who say that guns are dangerous, particularly when misused, and that this "accident" was nothing of the sort. It was criminal negligence. The "armorer" was incompetent. Either he/she was there and screwed it up, or they were NOT there and yet failed to secure the guns and ammunition.

In both the case of Brandon Lee and John Eric Hexxum (who I belive killed himself with a .44 blank) it was a tragic, stupid, preventable death.

Don't get me wrong: I enjoy firearms, and I enjoy movies where stuff blows up and bad guys get shot. But make no mistake about it, when you point any kind of projectile weapon at someone you're putting your faith in the person, and in the device, that you're safe. There are many ways things can go bad.
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Postby George Olson » 10/04/03 10:23 AM

There's a German fellow living in Portland who runs a neat little Coffee Shop at the Marina in Jantzen Beach that did a "Cross Bow" act in Las Vegas years ago. He runs a video of his act in his Cafe. He also did a Bullet Catch. He was shot once and survived.
Unfortunately, I can't remember his name -- his card is in one of the thirty plus boxes that are stored until we move to our new Condo (Under Construction)in December.
My wife and I had a really nice visit with him some time ago. He also raises minature horses!

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Postby Michael Jay » 10/04/03 10:38 AM

The projectile part of a bullet can be removed with pliers just fine. It's easier with long pointy rifle bullets than short stubby pistol bullets, but particularly if they are lead bullets it's easily done w/out damage to the case if you pay attention. I do NOT recommend doing it, but it's doable. I've done it a number of times. If it's a lead bullet then you will indeed damage it, but if it's jacketed you will only have some scratches on the ogive of the projectile, which cold be polished/sanded out if it was really important that the (movie) shot required that the projetile end be shown up close.
Heh - this is becoming a debate on the magic of firearms! Somehow, I don't think this is what Derren Brown hoped to achieve!

The only way that you got those bullets out of the casing is if they were improperly crimped. There is a gizmo, that looks much like a hammer, where you place the cartrige into a collet and use centrifugal force to get the slug out of the casing. If you had cartridges where the bullet can be removed from the casing with pliers, you had one very dangerous cartridge there, sir.

In the late 1800s, when cartridges were first being made, you could reasonably remove the slug from the casing. The metals were softer and they did not crimp the casings at the time. Just as with any other industry, over a period of years they realized the importance of crimping the casing to the slug, to ensure that it was waterproof (this also made for longer, more accurate shots, to boot).

Furthermore, if anyone replaces a slug on a case that has a primer, then puts that item into a chamber of a firearm, you then have the makings of a disaster. Now, I will accept that you know how to reload and that you've been around guns, but, if you believe that a slug caught in a barrel isn't a big deal, then you don't understand firearms. Ask any hunter who's gotten dirt in his barrel after a fall and shot the gun without removing the dirt. In case you don't know, the barrel explodes (yes, it explodes - it does not shoot the dirt out, the sudden pressure in the barrel causes the barrel to come apart). That is with a plug of dirt in the barrel and not a slug wedged into the barrel.

If the slug is loose in the barrel, you have another problem when shooting the slug. A loose slug gives no accuracy and can come out of the barrel in a 45 degree angle from the aim of the barrel, depending on how much play there is between the slug and barrel. In this case, the rifling of the barrel doesn't do a thing, because the bullet is then not given a spin. No spin = poor accuracy, much like an arrow without fletching (which is why they started rifling barrels to begin with). However, there are some rifles now that are made without the rifling that still have accuracy, except that the bullet tumbles rather than spins (the effect of this is that when the bullet his a bone in a tumbling fashion, the bullet changes course within the body and can exit almost anywhere [like a hit in the leg sending the bullet up through the body where it may exit from the head or back]) This is used with the M-16 in the military (which is made by the Colt corporation).

So, if the slug was wedged in the barrel and someone through pressure into the barrel, it would either have to blow back out of the breach or the barrel would explode. Either way, the person IN FRONT of the gun is the safest one of all (under the condition above).

Mike.
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Postby Robert Allen » 10/04/03 11:19 AM

Mike, I never said that a plugged barrel isn't a problem. But barrels don't always blow up, some times the plugging item blows through, or stays stuck. Nothing safe about it either way, but if you were so unfortunate as to be in front of a plugged barrel unpluging forcibly, I'd have to opine that you'd be 'shot'. Ballistics is a science, but there are many oddities, and many firearms today are over-engineered so they might survive *1* accident (I have personally seen a Colt Python with 7+ bullets stuck in the barrel, end to end. yes, the bozo didn't notice the squib loads and actually reloaded once.) Or not. As I said it's random, coupled with a function of the circumstances unique to the situation. In the case of Brandon Lee, it would not have had to have been even a complete bullet that got stuck, later to dislodge. In the case of John Eric Hexxum it could have been the hot gasses alone, or it could have been the style of blank which rather than have an end crimp has a cardboard or wax plug. I've seen these used to pop balloons at 20+ feet in mounted target competitions in the cowboy action shooting community.

I'm familiar with the intertial bullet puller you describe, but as said a bullet can be pulled w/out it. Not all bullets are crimped in, some are just friction fit. But since the case is brass, pliers could be used to uncrimp a jacketed, cannelured projectile (again, I have done this). With a .38 or .357 lead load you could just pull it out as there is often no cannelure or crimp, particularly since commercial ammo is never loaded super-hot for liability reasons (SAAMI specs).

Finally, the reason the 5.56mm/.223 Remington projectile fired by the M16 tumbles is due to the high velocity coupled with the long bullet with an offset center of gravity. It doesn't tumble until it hits the target. The Russian 5.45 mm projectile has similar characteristics due to an offset internal lead core. Bullets don't tumble in the air unless they are keyholing due to bad reloads or a defective bore.

Getting this all back to magic: while I find the bullet catch as done by Penn & Teller to be technically fascinating, it's dangerous. What's worse is it might encourage children, morons, or magicians to try and reproduce it, with dangerous results. The propposed russian roulette is a very bad idea. One should not point a firearm at something you're not prepared to shoot. Doing so in public is doubly bad. Doing so for entertainment is pretty much inexcusable. The thousands of "accidental" deaths due to firearms could pretty much be eliminated if people wouldn't treat guns as toys.
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Postby Robert Allen » 10/04/03 11:22 AM

I'm reminded of an old Far Side cartoon: The 1 frame cartoon showed two cavemen, one holding a bow, the other with an arrow sticking out of a portion of his anatomy. The caption, clearly said by the guy holding the bow, was "Sorry Uhgg, me not know it was loaded." Both funny and tragic:)
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Postby Guest » 10/04/03 12:52 PM

Reading the above posts, of those who have different opinions about what bullets/powder/guns can/cannot do...even though both are sure that they are right , only shows the (historically proven) folly of doing this stuff, by those who are sure of what can't happen, to themselves.
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Postby Michael Jay » 10/04/03 01:11 PM

Well stated, Diego, and I agree whole heartedly with your statement. I'm not going to argue on this subject anymore, specifically because...

I have personally seen a Colt Python with 7+ bullets stuck in the barrel, end to end. yes, the bozo didn't notice the squib loads and actually reloaded once.
...is not only logistically impossible, it defies physical law as well. Even if one is to believe that a gun would allow such a thing to happen without exploding, you still cannot escape the law of physics.

Energy can neither be created nor destroyed. The energy of the firing pin is displaced into the primer, setting off the powder. The expansion of the powder rockets the slug down the barrel. It is one exchange of energy to the next. To believe, for one second, that those slugs would line up only shows that you believe the energy simply disappeared (that IS magic). I'm sorry, Robert, but that is completely out of the realm of possibility, whether you wish to admit that or not.

The energy had to go SOMEWHERE, whether by blowing up the barrel or by blow back (which would take the guys face off or at least stop him from trying to fire a third time, much less 6 times) - if it did not come out the barrel, it had to go SOMEWHERE. They don't call it physical law because it is physical chance. You cannot get around physical law. Sorry, that story just don't add up.

So, considering stories like that, I cannot argue against your logic. Ah, well, I guess you are a magician, so it's possible!

Mike.
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Postby Dave Egleston » 10/04/03 03:57 PM

The bottom line is: The Brown thing will only be slightly more suspenseful and entertaining than the Bland in a box stunt - Although, no one will fly a remote controlled helicopter, with a hamburger suspended from it, close to Brown - So it may not even be as much fun

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Postby Guest » 10/04/03 04:22 PM

The strange part of the Derren Brown story is the precaution the network has taken to protect their audience. Darren is going to be doing the trick from an undisclosed location -- presumably outside the UK where handguns are illegal -- and will be on tape delay so that if Mr. Brown fails, the image on the screen will not be the horrific sight of this type of failure, but a notice indicating that the trick did not go correctly. It sounds like more hype but effective hype. I've got some more information about this on my website, Inside Magic.

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Postby Richard Kaufman » 10/04/03 04:34 PM

Tim, his name is "Derren" Brown with an "e."
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Postby Pete Biro » 10/04/03 04:59 PM

If you think this is crazy...

I won't mention the name of the rock band (no publicity from me) but they are doing a concert and will feature a terminally ill person committing suicide during their show. It will be broadcast on an internet site.

Are we in a wonderful era or what?

:help:
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Postby Elwood » 10/04/03 05:06 PM

I live in the UK. Handguns are illegal, and we have strict controls over all other guns (including blank firers, but, oddly, not pellet or ball bearing guns).

However, if someone pointed a gun in my direction, friend or not, I would either run, or try to take them out.

I don't wanna be shot in the back, so I guess I'd lunge at 'em!

BUT! I understand that any gun pointed in my direction that gets the trigger pulled will certainly scare me, probably hurt me and possibly kill me.

So I choose to keep away from guns, because I like to stay alive.

In much the same way I keep away from tigers, but that's a different story!

Anyway, as I'm a Limey, and don't know so much about guns, I can only say on the debate of blocked barrels and such like, that Mike J's explanation seems the most scientifically plausible.

Back to the subject in hand: taking into account how much we all like to see our own publicity, and how much DB will no doubt be featured in the papers on Monday morning, do you really think h'll put himself in any danger? No, neither do I. ;)
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Postby Guest » 10/04/03 05:30 PM

Thanks, Richard. I fixed it. That's the first mistake I've ever made. :)
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Postby Robert Allen » 10/04/03 05:59 PM

Mike you really need to pay more attention to what you read. As I stated, the python had squib loads. I had printed up a detailed response, but its not relevent to this forum so I deleted it. The basic point here is that ammo of a given caliber can over-pressure (explode) an action if loaded too hot, or loaded too low. At extreme low power its possible to drive a bullet partway up the barrel but NOT to blow the gun up. Aside from the Python mentioned, I have my grandfathers S&W revolver which has a slight barrel bulge midway down the barrel. But I can tell you that the barrel is not plugged, and the gun is not exploded (of course I wouldn't shoot it as it is). Perhaps you should spend a bit less time listening to the bozos at the range/gun store who tell you that a .45 will knock someone down, a .223 "tumbles", and substitute a bit more personal research shooting, reloading, and reading up on current ballistics theory.

Geez the .223 tumbling thing was debunked 20+ years ago. Lay off the Mack Bolan novels :) If you would like to discuss this further offline my email is: ottomatik@sbcglobal.net. Best regards.

In some vague figleaf of relating this to magic I'll note that a friend of mine quite familiar with firearms got to see Penn & Teller do the bullet catch, in fact he got to be one of the volunteers and was able to bring home the signed bullet. However they do the trick, it's done very well.
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Postby David Garrity » 10/04/03 08:05 PM

Just to clarify the facts surrounding the Brandon Lee tragedy.

"Unfortunately, a fragment of a dummy bullet, used earlier in close-up shots, was lodged in the barrel, and the blank charge propelled the fragment into Lee's side, fatally wounding him."

Excerpt from www.snopes.com
http://www.snopes.com/movies/actors/brandlee.htm

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Postby Michael Jay » 10/05/03 12:03 AM

If you would like to discuss this further offline my email is: ottomatik@sbcglobal.net. Best regards.
I'm sorry, I will not be debunked publicly. Of course, I would have been much more willing to go with this kind of debate (off the boards) had you not stated:

Geez the .223 tumbling thing was debunked 20+ years ago. Lay off the Mack Bolan novels
And:

Perhaps you should spend a bit less time listening to the bozos at the range/gun store who tell you that a .45 will knock someone down, a .223 "tumbles", and substitute a bit more personal research shooting, reloading, and reading up on current ballistics theory.
Maybe this will help. My maternal grandfather was a gunsmith, as am I. My mother will out shoot almost any man alive with a .45, or pretty much any handgun. I grew up with guns in every corner of the house (and, I mean that very literally - my father made a good living on buying and trading guns to put extra income into the household). I've put together guy's guns who've taken them apart and brought the pieces to me in a small paper sack. You ever seen how many springs, pins and miniscule parts make up the inards of a gun? A gob!

I've done trigger work on hard pull units. I've polished the metals down using precise equipment and set the trigger to specific weights of pull. I've pulled apart guns that shouldn't be pulled apart and I know the little quirks of most of the makes out there (these little quirks are why people have a hard time with guns...As an example, there is a screw in a Smith and Wesson make that, if removed, MUST be replaced, or the gun will function improperly - it is a set screw and cannot be taken out without the need to replace it).

I don't need to talk "theory" - I have hands on experience.

Fact: When a slug travels down the barrel of a firearm (rifle and handgun - not shotgun, unless, of course, you are shooting a slug through the shotgun), the barrel expands to allow the slug space to travel. This is why, specifically, barrels need to be replaced after, normally, 1,000 or so rounds. This is not so extreme in a gun that uses mostly lead bullets, since the lead is soft and will contract, rather than force the barrel to expand. However, for most rifles, pure lead bullets are not usefull, as the lead melts from the energy (heat). This is why they use a copper jacket. Solid copper bullets, on the other hand, will burn out a barrel in 500 or less rounds, hence the need for the copper jacket surrounding the lead (just the right amount of each goes much easier on the barrel and keeps the integrity of the bullet).

Fact: If you set off the primer on a loaded shot shell, without it being in a firearm, the load will do nothing more than fizzle. No explosion, just fizzle. Most of the guys (and I'd say most = 99.99%) on the firing range will tell you that that is a completely crazy thing to suggest. Never the less, it is fact. Please note, that is specific to a shot shell, not a cartridge which will rip apart if you attempt such a thing).

Fact: The .45 long colt will knock a man down - hence the name, "The man stopper." The .45 is a big slug and it moves at a very slow rate (about 900 feet per second, depending on the powder used, the grains behind it and whether or not you are using a pressure load - no matter what, it is still a slow moving slug). The very fact that it is big and slow means that the energy will be transferred throughout it's hit area, say the chest, rather than blow through the body as would, say, a .357 round. Of course, there are contributing factors to this - the weight of the slug, whether or not you are using a full metal jacket round nose and if it is hollow point or not. Basically, if it is an ACP (semi-auto round), it may not knock the target back (again, subject to powder and bullet specifics). If, however, it is a long colt (revolver), chances are it will knock the biggest of men down on the hit. Argue that all you want, it doesn't change the fact. And, if you actually get out there and ask, say, a gun smith, he'll tell you that I'm not feeding you a line.

I worked professionally as a gun smith for several years. I finally gave up. You see, the gun industry is at the point where there aren't a whole lot of things that they can do to make guns better. As a result, they change very tiny parts on the guns and how they function. Each year, there are hundreds of tiny changes made and it gets very, very frustrating trying to keep up with these minor and questionable changes - they are NOT necessary (they don't make the gun shoot better, fire faster or do much at all to increase their reliability). Of course, the manufacturers are very quick to tell you otherwise.

In any case, give me any pre-1990 firearm and I will take it apart, including the trigger mechanism and bolt (if it has a bolt mechanism) and all internal parts and put it back together in full working condition. Moreover, give me any gun as above that YOU'VE taken apart and dropped all the parts into a box in no specific order and, given the time, I will figure out exactly how it all goes back together and set it up in working order for you. Of course, your buddies on the firing range will probably tell you that's pretty easy.

In closing, I will address this issue:

I have my grandfathers S&W revolver which has a slight barrel bulge midway down the barrel.
It was your grandfather's gun, therefore it is old. You should note that the older guns were made with metals that are not the high quality of the metals used in firearms today. The loads that we use today are stronger, as a result of better powders. Better powders are used because the metalurgists have made steels that can take more powerful loads. Using loads on the market today, in conjunction with guns made as recently as 50 years ago, is a bad idea. The older guns simply cannot deal with the high power loads that are ordinarilly marketed today. In other words, some door knob used your grandfather old gun to shoot something that it simply could not deal with - hence the bulge in the barrel.

And that, sir, is not "theory."

Mike.
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Postby Chris Aguilar » 10/05/03 03:51 AM

:sleep:
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Postby Robert Allen » 10/05/03 10:29 AM

I have forwarded my response to Michael Jay privately since he refused to extend the same courtesy to the forums now that this has gone so far off topic.

[sometime later]

Ahh and I see that Michael Jay hasn't kept his email address in his profile up to day so my email to him bounced...
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Postby Michael Jay » 10/05/03 10:58 AM

My e-mail is the same today as it was 2 years ago. Don't know why it bounced, but I do know that I've been having some serious problems with my server. You can always try again:

michaeljay@about.com

Or, if that doesn't work, I do keep an alternate:

michaeljay1965@yahoo.com

Good enough?

Mike.
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Postby Dustin Stinett » 10/05/03 11:08 AM

Yes - please take the rest of the gun-talk off line please.

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Postby Dustin Stinett » 10/05/03 11:17 AM

To George Olson: Was the crossbow performer "Pantar" (sp?)?! If it's the same guy, I loved his act! He ended it by shooting an apple off his own head via a series of crossbows that were triggered by the arrow from another (started by the arrow he shot). But the best part (for me) was him blindfolded, shooting over his shoulder (behind him) at a target held by his wife over her head. She guided his aim verbally. It was a great variety act!

If it's him, let him know that someone remembers him! (And I'd love an autographed 8 x 10 if he still has any!)

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Postby Ian Kendall » 10/05/03 12:40 PM

Re the crossbow person; I have a vague recollection of Hans Moretti doing something like that?

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Postby Daniel » 10/05/03 02:05 PM

Well, the Russian Roulette show has just finished, and not too surprisingly, Derren Brown is still alive.
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Postby Richard Kaufman » 10/05/03 04:33 PM

Pantar is Moretti's son.
Glad to hear Derren's head is still in one piece!
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Postby Pete Biro » 10/05/03 05:38 PM

Hans Moretti's son uses the stage name Hans Pantar. He was at the MGM Grand for, I believe, 12 years. He has been booked now in a club in Brazil.
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Postby Pete Biro » 10/05/03 05:39 PM

It should also be noted that cross bows are far more accurate (especially at that range) than a pistol.
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Postby Geno Munari » 10/05/03 08:09 PM

Pete you are right. In the early 90's I was playing around with an idea of coming out on stage with my Wonder Dog, "Tasha". It played like this.

I come out with my dog, and a bow and arrow in my one hand, and an apple in my other......

Then I would say no....I won't shoot at her, she will shoot at me.

Thats when I looked into the principle of cross bow shooting. I bought a testing machine which shot a bow an arrow. The accuracy is unbelievable. Less than 1/4 inch variation in 20 feet.

I had a great gimmick in that Tasha would place her paw on a switch, and fire the arrow off of the testing bench. Actually I fired the arrow. Please don't try this, there are more difficulties I have not even explained.

Why I did not do it? I had zero money at the time to buy the additional equipment to perform the effect..

By the way, Pantar did accidentally hit his wife on at least on performance, possibly more.
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