Magician vs. Gambler

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Postby Philippe Noël » 11/05/01 09:25 AM

Is it true that Frank Garcia also claimed the parenthood of Magician vs. Gambler?
Was his version different from the one of Harry Lorayne?
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Postby Richard Kaufman » 11/05/01 03:17 PM

No, that's not true.
"Magician Vs. Gambler" was the invention of Dr. Jacob Daley. Ken Krenzel and Frank Garcia saw Daley do it, and they told Lorayne about it. Lorayne later published it as his own with no credit to Daley, and with minor changes.
Frank published the original Daley handling in one of his books.
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Postby Philippe Noël » 11/06/01 11:24 AM

Richard,
In "Personal Secrets", Lorayne gives the following credit:"From an original idea of Dr. Jacob Daley, Paul Le Paul devised a routine he called "The Bashful Queens"", he then says that this routine was his inspiration for Magician vs. Gambler.
What is funny(well I personaly find it funny) is the fact that The Bashful Queens was a simplification of the original Daley's effect.
In fact, Le Paul says that originally Daley used the basic idea(I suppose this idea is to end with queens in pockets) in combination with another effect(The matching cards effect). Lorayne would have then reinvented the original Daley's effect.
Well that is what he states, I think...
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Postby Richard Kaufman » 11/06/01 03:37 PM

Paul LePaul wanted Daley to give him "Magician vs. Gambler" to publish in his book. Daley refused, so LePaul went ahead and published a "variation" that removed the most clever aspect of the trick. That publication is irrelevant to the point at hand: I was TOLD by the one of the parties who saw Daley do the trick that he later related the thing to Harry Lorayne.
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Postby Andy Hurst » 11/06/01 05:07 PM

Originally posted by Richard Kaufman:
Frank published the original Daley handling in one of his books.


Did Frank credit Daley in his book?

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Postby Richard Kaufman » 11/06/01 05:42 PM

Yes he did. The trick appears in Frank's book, "Exclusive Card Secrets," published in 1980. I illustrated it.
The trick appears on p.50 and is called "Doc Daley's Masterpiece: The Gambler and The Magician." Garcia begins the description by telling how he and Ken Krenzel saw Daley do the routine, then later figured it out. At some point Garcia showed it to Lorayne. Krenzel confirmed this to me personally at the time the book came out.
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Postby Andy Hurst » 11/06/01 06:02 PM

Thanks Richard.

I was curious as I know that Frank Garcia took some flack for not crediting at some point.

It doesn't really surprise me that Lorrayne stole it.. errr.. I mean published it without proper credits.
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Postby Guest » 11/06/01 06:05 PM

"Frank Garcia took some flack for not crediting at some point"

Quite the understatement !!
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Postby Andy Hurst » 11/06/01 06:22 PM

Yeah, sorry. In a moment of weakness I was being nice :eek:
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Postby Richard Kaufman » 11/06/01 06:39 PM

Unfortunately, since Garcia had already published so much material without credit, it was hard for him to be a credible witness. Krenzel's personal testimony to me, however, was all I needed to hear to know it was true.
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Postby Philippe Noël » 11/07/01 12:19 PM

Richard,
I think now that it is clear.
Shame on you award for Harry.
By the way, was Frank authorised to publish Daley's routine ?
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Postby Harvey Rosenthal » 11/08/01 08:38 PM

For those who are interested, the 'Magician vs. Gambler' premise is sometimes credited to Fred Braue. It can be found in the Hugard Annual For 1937, page 43. However, the earliest source of this effect has never been ascertained.

As Karl Fulves points out in The Pallbearers Review Close-Up Folio #9, the Dai Vernon issue (Part Three), "Adding to the confusion is the fact that the 'Magician Makes Good' premise seems to have become absorbed into the 'Magician vs. Gambler' plot." Fulves continues by saying "An excellent example on just this point can be found in Wilfrid Jonson's brilliant book, But Not To Play. Describing a trick called 'Four of a Kind,' he says the original idea came from Nate Leipzig. You would expect him to describe the 'Magician Makes Good' plot, but instead Jonson describes the 'Magician vs. Gambler' effect, accompanied by a different presentation angle."

The aforementioned Fulves comments appeared in the context of a discussion of the history of Vernons 'Travelers' effect.

[ November 08, 2001: Message edited by: Harvey Rosenthal ]
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Postby Guest » 11/12/01 08:34 PM

I hope I'm not showing my ignorance...isn't the "magician vs gambler" premise similar to the Vernon routine, "Matching the Cards"? I do see similarities.
Could Vernon have come up with that routine, then Daley, or whoever, have taken off with the presentational premise?
Just thinking,
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Postby Philippe Noël » 11/13/01 02:34 PM

Dear Rick,
You are a genius!
I read again "Matching the cards" from Inner Secrets of Card Magic and discovered that Vernon seems to be the first to have devised the present Magician vs Gambler.(see Note 2 page 24). The premise is of course in Hugard Annual for 1937 but the kings don't end in the pockets. In "Matching the cards", Vernon begins with a "Magician makes good" effect and end by doing his "Travellers", except that one eight is already in one of his pocket and that is how "Magician vs Gambler" is born I suppose. I also imagine that Daley improved "Matching the cards" by putting two cards in advance in his pockets.
Note that Ganson tells us that Leipzig asked Vernon to teach him the trick.
Note also that concerning "Magician makes good", a similar plot is explained in "Magician Tricks And How They Are Done" by Hatton and Plate.
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Postby Philippe Noël » 11/15/01 02:05 PM

Isn't the "magician vs gambler" premise similar to the Vernon routine, "Matching the Cards"?

Dear Rick,
The "Magician vs gambler" premise is similar to "Matching the Cards" but there is a slight difference. In the first, you cut to three of a kind and the fourth is a different card. In "Matching the Cards" you put one card face down on the table and endeavour to find the three matching cards. Later the face down card appears not to match the other three cards.
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Postby Philippe Noël » 11/15/01 02:23 PM

Dear Mr Rosenthal,
Thanks to your post I finally read the history of Vernon's "Travellers" in the Close-up Folio #9. I was very interested as you can tell from my previous posts.
Finally, I am asking myself a last question.
Is "Daley's Travelers" from Close-up Folio #9 the trick explained in Exclusive Card Secrets?
Thank you Mr Rosenthal.
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