"new" casino scam... busted...

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Postby Guest » 12/06/04 11:22 AM


Postby Guest » 12/06/04 11:34 AM


Postby Guest » 12/06/04 02:38 PM

If it such an exclusive club how did the Serbs and the Hungarian get in? Either they are members or were invited or it isn't as exclusive as they think.
Steve V

Postby Guest » 12/06/04 03:11 PM

I think, all casino's in england are "exclusive" meaning you have to be a member to get in... even if it's just a day "pass"...


Postby Guest » 12/06/04 03:53 PM

There's nothing new about this method of beating roulette. I read an interesting book that details one group's efforts to create this same basic system -- a computer that you input the speed of the wheel and the rate of the ball and it gives you a cluster of numbers to bet on.

Can't remember the name of the book, but I read it almost 10 years ago, I think.

Postby Guest » 12/06/04 04:01 PM

'The Newtonian Casino' by Thomas A Bass. Sadly out of print, but a great book!

Postby Guest » 12/06/04 04:13 PM

Just read the article. So does this mean it is ok to use hidden computers to "cheat" at Roulette? And if so, are Blackjack card counting computers still illegal? I guess us British are more leniant on "cheats" than the US :)

Postby Guest » 12/06/04 04:36 PM

I don't get it. Are we supposed to believe that these casinos let you place or change bets after the ball is rolled?

Postby Pete Biro » 12/06/04 05:35 PM

A pal of mine that was working security at the Stardust CAUGHT a guy changing the bet... I was watching up to about five minutes before he got him, and missed watching it... argh... but they do try and do get nabbed.
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Postby Guest » 12/06/04 05:35 PM

In Britain you can place bets for about 5-8 seconds after the ball has been spun ie. until the croupier calls 'no more bets'. In the US can you not bet after the ball is spun?

Postby Guest » 12/06/04 05:39 PM

At least in the US casinos, one is permitted to continue to place bets on the field even after the ball has rolled. The croupier will announce no more bets a few moments the ball falls. I suppose it speeds up the game to increase wagering.

Casinos discovering card counting computers on ones person may not react too kindly. What contstitutes a card counting device, however, is another story.


Postby Guest » 12/06/04 06:15 PM

There is nothing strange about a BIG winner in a casino, out of thousands of people who help pay for the glits....Casino folks call systems players and device players losers, because everyone (except maybe one out of ten thousand) gets busted/broke.....

I do a casino about every four months, and I am pretty good friends with the pit bosses and dealers....I smile at them when they watch me closely, because we both know that I know that they know that I know that they know that....eventually, if I don't play a money-management system and quit when my luck is bad, I am going to lose.....And I seldom get skunked...I occasionally lose, but I never lose more than my "comps" cover, over a four-to-seven day stay....

Systems players and cheats LOSE!!! It is better to set a limit on what you will play each day to cover your comp entitlements....Any wins over those are winners; any losses over those are...well vacation expenses....Just after the SAM convention in St. Louis, I went to the President Casino and won enough in thirty minutes to pay for my room at the Adams Mark....and I quit while I was ahead...THE BIG SECRET!!!!

PS: I saw Bret Daniels 13 times when he was at the Gold Strike in Tunica....and that casino and I are just about even on the books....


Postby Geno Munari » 12/06/04 09:08 PM

This is not a new scam. The first time that it was used was at the Marina Hotel (Las Vegas, now part of the MGM Grand) in the 80's. The player was busted at the wheel with a camera in his buckle, with a transmitter that was received in a van in the parking lot. The camera would record the ball and the computer would predict the play. The Gaming Agents got the whole rig.

There is also a non-computer way of tracking the ball that can be used on a standard wheel head, but not the new style revolving head, revolving frets, and colors. A prediction can be made very easy with this.

In Nevada, nothing can be used to help the player, except maybe a strategy chart for 21.

I will post all the details as soon as I can find my copy of Gaming Confidential, which I authored 24 issues in the 80's. I have lots of material on this that I can write about. This story made the local newspapers.

Remember one thing, the crossroaders that really knew their stuff, NEVER got busted.

The Gaming Control Agent that was involved in the matter is a personal friend. Him and I are writing a more complete version of all the scams that have been tried on the casinos, including the ones that have succeeded and nobody knows what happened or who did what to whom!

There is so much about this town (Las Vegas) that has never been written about will never be known.
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Postby Guest » 12/07/04 12:17 AM

Is this basically a high tech version of clocking the wheel?
Steve V

Postby Guest » 12/07/04 12:56 AM

They just talked about this scam on belgian tv.
They said that the "electronic system" was hidden inside a mobile phone, and can calculate where the ball will hit. And apparently it succeeds 1 to 6, in stead of 1 to 36 ....

They said that the law was not infringed because the law stipulates that nothing may "touch" the ball....

In most European Casino's (even in Las Vegas)I went you can play after the ball has been launched.


Postby Jim Morton » 12/07/04 09:22 AM

Originally posted by Joseph Mckay:
'The Newtonian Casino' by Thomas A Bass. Sadly out of print, but a great book!
In America, the title of this book was The Eudaemonic Pie. It is also out of print, but is easy to find used.

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Postby Geno Munari » 12/07/04 11:09 AM

Here is a little more info on some scams from my notes, if you don't mind.


One of the oldest and most practical ways of taking advantage,
and be sure to realize the key words here - "taking advantage", of
a casino is by utilizing some very discrete flaws that exist in
casino equipment, either from the point of origin, or flaws that
develop after some wear and tear. As noted in the previous report
about one way cards, there are also some very subtle avenues the
advantage player can use that border on the law.
Lawsuits have generally favored the player in cases where no
outside cheating devices were used. The problem of taking
advantage of a weak link in the casino's system is a serious
problem that all casinos must directly anticipate.
Over the last century the game of roulette has been a target of
sharp gamblers that noticed that the tiniest flaw will affect the
outcome of the spin and fall of the ball. What seemed to be a
simple matter of recording each spin of the ball on pencil and
paper is actually a method to tell if a roulette ball is biased to
certain numbers. In Monte Carlo it is house policy to offer
anyone who is interested an accurate record of every spin of the
ball from the day the game started. In fact there is one person
who simply writes these results into a record book for the curious
In Las Vegas the casinos don't offer this service, rather you
must record your own results. Many casinos offer score cards
similar to the score cards used in baccarat to tally the day's
Some sharp gambler figured out that some patterns were
developing on certain roulette wheels that opened the door to
actually being able to beat the game simply by betting the numbers
that seemed to repeat more than others.
Why did certain numbers repeat? The answers to this question
are not complete, nor is the amount of money that was won using
this method determined. However from what is known on the
streets, a tremendous amount of money has been taken off the
games, simply because the wheel had an inherent flaw.
Upon examining most wheel heads, the numbers around the head
have been adhered in a continuous circular piece. In that piece
there is a seam that protrudes slightly. A ball falling out of
the track across the seam will be affected by the abnormality.
Simply by betting those numbers that are favored by the
imperfection will allow the player a tremendous advantage.
Variations in the size of the metal frets that separate the
numbers will also dramatically affect the randomness of the spin.
The frets can be either not even in height and width. It stands
to reason that if one number had frets that were slightly turned
inward, those numbers would have a less chance of showing.
The inserts where the ball drops are positioned in a continuous
red and black pattern around the wheel, excepting for the numbers
0 and 00, which are green. What is important here is the fact
that the inserts are individually seated with glue, and not a
solid piece of material. The individual inserts are subject to
hot and cold temperatures and affixed in an manner that is
subjective to the person doing the construction. Several inserts
may have the last dab of glue from an old bottle that may not be
as bonding as a new bottle, for example. There also may be some
air pockets in between the inserts and the base of the wheel. Any
slight imperfection like this will cause the ball to have less
resiliency than normal and therefore stay in certain number
pockets more often than normal. Ideally for the advantage player
a bigger roulette ball will perform better under these conditions,
that is bounce less than a smaller and lighter ball.
Roulette teams have scouted for biased wheels and have sent
teams out to play on them earning "classical" amounts of money, to
use the vernacular of the road hustler. In Lake Tahoe, a
prominent casino was beaten out of more than $400,000 over the
course of the team's play, in just a couple of days. The players
bet the exact set of numbers each spin of the wheel. The four to
six number were bet straight up, with no other bets placed.
To ward off suspicion, the team traveled to Las Vegas and
legitimately gambled with the winnings. This ploy is a clever
method used by most hustlers to cover their tracks. They figure
that after the dirty work is done, why not take a shot with the
house's money. Very, very clever.
Another team that we were able to gather more information about
played two different sets of numbers straight up in a different
Las Vegas casino and won $40,000 in an evenings work last
February. The numbers bet were 0, 17, 32 and 11.
A new wheel has been developed to prevent this type of advantage
play from happening by Paul-Son Dice and Card Company of Las
Vegas. Their new wheel, the brainchild of Lou DiGregorio, is
designed to allow the numbers to be rotated to any position by the
use of a movable ring. The frets can be moved in the same manner.
Thus daily, even hourly, the wheel can be adjusted so that not
even the cleverest of players could determine where the ball may
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Postby Geno Munari » 12/07/04 11:09 AM


On July 10, 1984, a subject was arrested in a Las Vegas casino while playing blackjack, betting two hands at $1000 each.
The player was found to have a television camera attached to his right wrist and a transmitter and receiver attached to his
waist. The player would televise the dealer's hole card to the base station, which was located in a van in the casino's
parking lot. The suspected cheater had won $17,000 and carried an additional $40,000 on his person when he was arrested. 
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Postby Geno Munari » 12/07/04 11:13 AM

Here is a real great scam I busted in the 80's..


The Tahoe scam is very similar to a scam that this author uncovered at the Imperial Palace Hotel, in Las Vegas in 1980.
Here is how it went....
The hotel decided that it wanted to open a baccarat game and my job was to assist the General Manager and the Casino Manager
in setting up the game. After a few meetings, I give them some direction of the different ways that the game could be operated. I furnished rules and procedures that would safeguard the game against cheaters, both on the inside and on the outside.
I was asked by management if I would like to work in the baccarat game,since I was a baccarat floorman at the Dunes (we dealt paper money then) circa 1969-1976, and I accepted. I then was told that I would be called in very shortly. I waited and waited for the telephone call. It didn't come. I called the Casino Manager and was
told that he didn't have a position for me. I sensed that something was wrong and immediately arranged a meeting with the General Manager and the Casino Manager to see if I could possibly figure out why my services were no longer needed.
I soon found out that I was the only outsider that was considered for a position in the baccarat game, and that the rest of the crew was hand picked by the newly appointed baccarat manager. In gaming anything can happen, and it did. The man that they picked as the baccarat manager never had any direct baccarat experience in Las Vegas. That is, he was never a floorman
or even a dealer. I though in my mind, "Does this person have the experience necessary for a high rolling baccarat game?"
I was finally hired, and placed in the position as floorman. I had more experience in the game than anyone working in the entire pit. I sensed though that I was an outsider. I was not felt to feel welcome. I was given nothing but a hard time
from the moment I walked into the job. I was the only person that was not hired by the baccarat manager.
Opening night we had quite a bit of business for a new baccarat game, especially since we didn't advertise the opening. An interesting lady sat down to play. She was adorned with very expensive jewelry and had on the finest garments. Her name was even interesting, Madame Yu. Oriental looking and very charming was Madame Yu, and we were happy to have found a very good high rolling baccarat player. She deposited $10,000 in the cashier's cage to play against. That is, she would draw chips at the table which would be deducted from the total deposit in the cage.
Madame Yu gave one the impression that she was a big player that had a lot of money. She did have a lot of money and she did play heavy, but I sensed something wrong with her "act". Her purse was not expensive and didn't match the rest of her
dress. She looked oriental, but the more I observed her the more convinced I was that she was trying to convey to us that she was an oriental, which in fact she wasn't.
Her play was hot and cold as far as were she placed her bets. That is she would play the bank side and then switch suddenly to the player side. Sometimes she would switch in the middle of a hand after the cards were already dealt. According to the proper rules, switching is not permitted after a card has been dealt from the baccarat shoe. Occasionally a courtesy switch
is permitted, but never a continuous switch.
I felt that she was not complying with the rules and I was over ruled by the shift manager. I was told to let her play the way she wanted. This was against my grain, and a very dangerous thing for the house. I might point out that the dealers were being tipped very heavily. Nobody wanted to rock the boat. I felt that the casino was not being given a fair shake, however
I was constantly over ruled by the immediate baccarat management.


I finally noticed that every time that Madame Yu sat down to play, to other gentlemen also sat down to play, and always in the same seats. I became very suspicious and made every attempt to talk to the men and Madame Yu, hoping to get the slightest clue as to what was the scam. One man was an oriental and the other was red headed, both about 50 years of age. The red headed man, I shall call Tony, told me that he was a designer and handled wall coverings. He would even go over to the walls in the baccarat pit and talk as if he knew exactly the brand of paper and the manufacturer. He was a master of deceit.
The oriental man would not engage in any conversation at all. He would just smile or stare at me.
I once again brought my suspicions to the attention of my suspervisors, I was told that I was paranoid. Again I gave my full attention to the developing problem. That evening, Madame Yu began losing which made my theory look very bad. At the close of the evening however, she did win a little, and had given the dealers thousands in gratuities.
I recalled how giving tips has been used as a decoy in many casino scams. The dealers and floormen become blind with greed to see anything out of the ordinary. It never fails.
The following morning, Madame Yu returned to the game bearing a gift for the shift manager and me. I was honored with a solid sterling silver Gucci pen. I still have the pen as a reminder. I thought, beware of Greeks bearing gifts. I became even more cautious.
Finally I caught one of the gentlemen flashing the cards after they were dealt to the player sitting opposite him. That player would secretly signal to Madame Yu, who was at the other end of the table. She would act like she was not even
watching the game, and ask to have her bet switched from the bank side to the player side, or to put down a bet after the cards were already out. She was a master! This was one of the most clever schemes I have ever seen. No marked cards. Noextra cards. No gaffs of any kind. The floorman allowed the changing of the bets, he technically allowed the scam to happen.
When they could determine the value of the player hand, they would know which hand would probably win. It was a simple matter of switching bets. They won quite a bit of money doing this before I raised enough eyebrows to stop the play.
The following week all three individuals returned to play. All parties were arrested, with one of the culprits confessing and confirming my theories.
Several questions still remain unanswered. Was there anyone else involved in the operation beside the trio? How did they know that the baccarat game was being opened in the casino?

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Postby Geno Munari » 12/07/04 11:22 AM

Here are some more roulette scams..


This scam can only be pulled off only once in a casino, because it is one of those types of scams that is only a one time shot. At least two people are necessary to make the scam work. One player is playing roulette chips at say $1 each, covering the layout in different patterns. The other player is sitting at the other end of the table betting $25 chips, but has only
actually made a few bets.
Just as the ball drops, the player puts down a chip on the winning number. The dealer will say that no more bets are allowed, however the player will have an additional $25 chip under his designated chip. When the dealer says no more bets the player has already placed the $25 chip on the number, and the dealer will be led to believe that the $25 chip was that of the
player at the other end of the table. The player will pick his roulette chip up, forcing the dealer to pay the past posted chip. Like I said, this scam can only be pulled off only once, but it does work quite effectively.


The wheel head has a small hole drilled through the side that will permit a small wire that will knock the ball off the track and prevent it from falling in a heavily bet section. Either the dealer or a floorman can hit the plunger. The only clue that will give this gaff away is unusual actions of the dealer or the floorman.


The weight the of chips on any of the three divided sections of the layout will prevent the ball from falling in any of the numbers. The more chips on the number or numbers, the less of a chance that the ball will drop on them. This gaffed wheel is very complicated an very expensive to build. There was only one in existence as of this writing.


By bending the frets inward causes less of an open area for the ball to drop into a number. Certain wheels allow this method to be "turned on and turned off" at will. The slightest change in the opening will make a great difference in the


By placing lead inserts into the numbers on the wheel will prevent the ball from bouncing out ofa number as a normal ball would. The lead insert reduces resiliency thus giving the cheat a very significant advantage.


There has been a lot of work completed in the area of predicting the outcome of the finally position of the ball. Secret cameras worn on the body, and special timing units have been used very successfully to accurately predict the section in which
the ball will fall.
An imperfect or biased wheel is a perfect target for such experts. One group of professional wheel players beat a very
large casino out of almost one million dollars within 24 hours. The slightest imperfection will allow the wheel to behave improperly.
In casino that have more than one wheel, the wheel heads are rotated to reduce the chances of someone clocking the wheel for imperfections.


It is very easy for a dealer to change the value of a roulette chip by simply changing the marker that is placed on the rim of the wheel head.
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Postby Pete Biro » 12/07/04 11:27 AM

Geno.... changing markers... that's what Marty caught the guy doing at the Stardust -- I had just left and missed the catch.
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Postby Guest » 12/07/04 02:20 PM

Thanks Geno for all these great info!


Postby Keith Raygor » 12/08/04 08:00 AM

I have known several roulette dealers that could predict where the ball would drop within 2-3 numbers by combining how hard they spun the ball into action and WHEN they started the ball in play.

Geno, have you ever seen scams that involved the dealer in this manner?
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Postby Geno Munari » 12/08/04 08:30 AM

Yes I have. It doesn't require a dealer to do this type of play. You need a biased wheel and a little time to practice. I actually did this without the help of a dealer, which is perfectly legal.

You simply watch the ball spin and get a cross fix on a number when it drops. If the wheel is biased (off balance etc,) a certain section of numbers will repeat, when the ball drops at a certain point.

Ed Thorpe also wrote a small booklet on the physical prediction of roulete.
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