Justin Miller

Discuss the latest news and rumors in the magic world.

Postby Guest » 10/27/06 06:46 AM

Does anyone have any information on what happened with Justin Miller, or where I can locate information?
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Postby Guest » 10/27/06 07:45 AM

Check here for details.
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Postby Guest » 10/27/06 04:41 PM

Thanks for the fast reply. I checked the site and it does not make any reference to what has happened.
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Postby Guest » 10/27/06 05:27 PM

I believe he has said all he is going to say. We should respect his decision and his privacy.
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Postby Richard Kaufman » 10/27/06 05:39 PM

Here's what he's written on his website now:

"I will make this short...
Many of you know that I had to cancel my 2006 lecture tour with Danny Archers circuit due to a family emergency, but more has come from this than just a lecture tour canceled. I am quitting magic due to the fact that I have placed my job before my family, but more importantly I have placed my job before my God Jesus Christ. This has been awhile coming and I must heed to the call of my life as a servant of HIM. I thank you for making my name popular, for enjoying my products that I have put out but I must quit to save my marriage and my life.
It just is not me. I tried to be someone I was not..and the end result was death."
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Postby Guest » 10/27/06 06:07 PM

Originally posted by cgscpa:
I believe he has said all he is going to say. We should respect his decision and his privacy.
I agree. It's his call whether or not he wants to elaborate further. He shouldn't be bothered to explain something that's really nobody else's business anyway.
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Postby Guest » 10/28/06 02:18 AM

Nobody else's business?

Something terrible may have happened in his family, and if he wants to say (or imply that) doing card tricks led to that result, that's certainly his perogative; however, it does not follow for us to say someone speaking of magic is not a magician's business.

Nobody is trying to discount whatever tragedy may have befallen him and his family, and of course it is up to him to either reveal those details or leave things to speculation. But, if he wants to step beyond that and imply that those who do magic are placing themselves and their loved ones physically or spiritually 'at risk' ("...the end result was death"), I think that'sby definitionevery magician's business.

My best,
David Rowyn

//
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Postby Guest » 10/28/06 04:56 AM

I didn't get the sense *at all* from his note that he was implying any kind of generalized danger in performing magic tricks. Rather, it seemed he felt the real danger for himself was that he was not prioritizing the things in his life in ways that fulfilled him personally or strengthened his marriage.

If he is going into the ministry or simply pursuing other interests out of an honest response to his heart/spirit, then God bless him. I wish I hadn't waited so long to follow my own heart INTO magic.

JMT
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Postby Guest » 10/28/06 05:41 AM

Originally posted by davidrowyn:
Nobody else's business?

... it does not follow for us to say someone speaking of magic is not a magician's business.

...//
yes, the business of the someone who said it. Not necessarily all who heard it or consider themselves magicians.
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Postby Guest » 10/28/06 06:14 AM

If a politician suddenly withdrew from politics and even hinted that his involvement in the Democratic/Republican party was to blame for his misfortunes, you can bet your hanging chad everyone in the political arena would have something to say about it, because their business is politics.

That we shouldn't be allowed to question his remarks as they relate to magic is just silly.

My best,
David Rowyn

//

PS: I agree with Joe that his remarks could be recieved in the manner that he outlined in his above post, but when he says that he must quit to save his *life*, and that [being a magician] resulted in *death*, that seems to say more than just "I'm going in a new direction".
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Postby Guest » 10/28/06 06:35 AM

I read the quote Richard posted from Justin's web site and David's comments about death. But for me I see he's in a "different place". The term death probably should not be taken literally...

Tom
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Postby Ian Kendall » 10/28/06 06:40 AM

It looks like magic was taking Justin away from his family too much, his family were not happy and Justin made the (often correct) decision to be with them.

Now, this is purely conjecture on my part, but whatever the reason, whoever thinks this is anyone's business but the Miller family needs to take a look at their outlook on life.

Take care, Ian
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Postby Guest » 10/28/06 06:48 AM

Originally posted by davidrowyn:
...That we shouldn't be allowed to question his remarks as they relate to magic is just silly.
...
IMHO one position of merit on this would be to express ones concerns DIRECTLY to the party in question.
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Postby Guest » 10/28/06 07:24 AM

IMHO one position of merit on this would be to express ones concerns DIRECTLY to the party in question.
If you really thought that was the best way to go, you would have emailed the above message to me *directly*, and not posted it here on a message board. I just checked my email too, just in case.

I don't think there's anything wrong with open discussion.

Cheers,
David

//
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Postby Guest » 10/28/06 08:51 AM

Am I the only one who thinks its a little odd that Justin is getting out of magic in such a hury and then turns around and offers a soon to be released DVD on the very same website that is telling us he quit.
The discussion about him leaving magic brought a lot of traffic to that website and if you are getting out of it I would not have expected advertisement for a soon to be released DVD....
For those who like to take sides: I am not trying to imply anything, I just find this odd.
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Postby Guest » 10/28/06 08:55 AM

Originally posted by davidrowyn:
PS: I agree with Joe that his remarks could be recieved in the manner that he outlined in his above post, but when he says that he must quit to save his *life*, and that [being a magician] resulted in *death*, that seems to say more than just "I'm going in a new direction".
I guess it depends on how you interpret that word on the overall context of the message. Based on the spiritual content of his message, I interpreted that bit rather non-literally.

In either event, it didn't at all read that he was pointing at "being a magician" as the cause of "death." He said he was trying to be someone he is not, and THAT was what was wrong. His perception of his own skewed priorities was the cause of his decision, not the activity of magic itself. I didn't even get the idea that he was "hinting" at such a thing. The last two sentences are pretty clear.

I think this is the end of my comments on this. I already regret posting as much as I have on what really is a private matter between Mr. Miller, his family, and his God.

JMT
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Postby Guest » 10/28/06 10:01 AM

Originally posted by davidrowyn:
...If you really thought that was the best way to go, you would have...
Oh, now aside from acting (IMHO) like a boor you are a mind reader too. Impressive. Or perhaps you are actually asking if they guy found some combination of tricks that hurt people? *(sarcasm)

What you may have deleted was "if i had as much respect for you as I do for others" and that was quite impressive too.

Instead I addressed the ISSUE in public. And yes in answer to the question you were too clever to ask...I too prefer to keep personal comment off public fora.

Kindly address your questions to the guy in private. It's his life and his decisions.

But if truly found the killer card routine...
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Postby Guest » 10/28/06 10:39 AM

Originally posted by WolfgangWollet:
Am I the only one who thinks its a little odd that Justin is getting out of magic in such a hury and then turns around and offers a soon to be released DVD on the very same website that is telling us he quit.
The discussion about him leaving magic brought a lot of traffic to that website and if you are getting out of it I would not have expected advertisement for a soon to be released DVD....
For those who like to take sides: I am not trying to imply anything, I just find this odd.
Whether you meant to imply anything or not, youve now put the idea out that Mr. Millers leaving magic mightve been some marketing ploy to drive traffic to his website. Its this sort of idle and groundless speculation, that can quickly mutate into some really nasty gossip, which led me to make my original post.

As to the other poster who compared this to a politician leaving politics, thats not an applicable argument. A politician is, or should be, a representative of the people who elected him. As such, he would have an obligation to keep his constituents apprised of any action which directly impacted the job he was elected for. Mr. Miller operates under no such obligation, and to publicly speculate on his personal motivations for leaving magic exhibits a decided lack of class.
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Postby Guest » 10/28/06 11:01 AM

Many people, myself included, have left the magic community for a time, in order to spend more time with their family, work, or other priorities. I would guess that by releasing a DVD, Mr. Miller is still willing to share his magic, but perhaps in a more passive way i.e. - via internet sales, and not by going on lecture tours, or performing /attending magic conventions. Or, the DVD was produced prior to his decision. We should be grateful for the offering, and hope that things work out for Mr. Miller and his family. Perhaps in time he will re-enter our community with a more active role.
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Postby Guest » 10/28/06 11:46 AM

Originally posted by Michael Rubinstein:
Many people, myself included, have left the magic community for a time, in order to spend more time with their family, work, or other priorities. I would guess that by releasing a DVD, Mr. Miller is still willing to share his magic, but perhaps in a more passive way i.e. - via internet sales, and not by going on lecture tours, or performing /attending magic conventions. Or, the DVD was produced prior to his decision. We should be grateful for the offering, and hope that things work out for Mr. Miller and his family. Perhaps in time he will re-enter our community with a more active role.
It's reassuring to know that there are people like you in the world, Doc! :)
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Postby Guest » 10/28/06 11:53 AM

davidrowyn:

What's in your Kool-aid??
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Postby Guest » 10/28/06 12:58 PM

I'm not sure who Justin Miller is but the DVD someone refered to is likely the one on restaurant magic with Kirk Charles, Dan Fleshman, Paul Green, Ted Brainard, and I may be missing one person. I'm figuring, and I have on insight into this, that perhaps Justin received dvds as payment (or will when this is released in November) and since dvd cases are too big to mark verses properly he may as well sell 'em. I'm really looking forward to the dvd as I am a fan of Paul Greens work and Dan fleshman as well, I think it is being put out by kozmomagic.com
Steve V
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Postby Brad Henderson » 10/28/06 05:34 PM

Originally posted by Joe M. Turner:

I think this is the end of my comments on this. I already regret posting as much as I have on what really is a private matter between Mr. Miller, his family, and his God.

JMT {/QUOTE]

Originally posted by Jim Coles:
Its this sort of idle and groundless speculation, that can quickly mutate into some really nasty gossip, which led me to make my original post.

I said something similar in regard to the Pendragon brouhaha. It is unfair to all parties to be unclear.

Vague statements only encourage speculation and gossip frenzy. In this case, Miller made statements in an exceedingly public manner. It is then reasonable to discuss those statements and question what them mean - if only to get to the truth and avoid misunderstandings. I do not know what happened, however I was just as curious as many when I read Miller's post.

Had this been a private statement leaked by someone, it would not be right to discuss it. But as it was a public post, and one that is confusing and concerning, it is more than reasonable for people to want to know what was REALLY meant. Only by clearly stating what was alluded to can we avoid what Jim Coles rightfully worries about.
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Postby Guest » 10/28/06 06:31 PM

Right. He made a 'pseudo-press release' on the world wide web.

Once there is public disclosure of any degree, we can expect and be comfortable with discussionwhich may include someone taking issue with how Justin chose to phrase things. Perhaps in doing that, we can discover consensus or alternative views, which we've done (mostly without name calling).

Cheers,
David

//
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Postby Guest » 10/28/06 06:44 PM

Originally posted by Brad Henderson:
... It is unfair to all parties to be unclear...
Most statements contain deletions, distortions or generalizations.

There is only ONE PARTY affected by this situation and he can be reached directly.

Does anyone here really believe he found a combination of tricks that causes death? And what sort of puerile curiosity gets such a question asked in public in the first place.

Sorry D... If someone else knew, they are unlikely to gossip. Or in this community... perhaps they would.

Is there now a "divine right for details". Inquiring minds want to know.

So, how many licks does it take to get to the center of a Tootsie roll pop? Well? I'm waiting. :rolleyes:
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Postby Guest » 10/28/06 08:03 PM

Does anyone here really believe he found a combination of tricks that causes death? And what sort of puerile curiosity gets such a question asked in public in the first place.
JT, I think you may be misled (and not in a pencil-thru-bill sort of way) by the tricks-to-death line of thinking.

It's more like the question was whether or not Miller was implying that his decision to do magic was in some way responsible for 'death', however manifested and whether figurative, spiritual, or physical.

When Hurricane Katrina hit, some people said that God caused the death and destruction as a punishment to the people for their actions. In the same way, if Justin was implying that his doing magic led to some sort of spiritual punishment (i.e. death in some physical or non-physical form), I do take issue with that and I think a lot of other magicians would as well.

My best,
David Rowyn

//
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Postby Guest » 10/29/06 05:40 AM

> implying that his doing magic led to some sort of spiritual punishment

Except that his message doesn't say or imply that doing magic was actually the problem. He said pretty clearly that being untrue to himself and having his priorities misaligned was the problem.

That kind of emotional dissonance could be caused by anything that someone misprioritized -- any job, any leisure activity, any hobby, or any unnatural obsession (such as finding imaginary messages in other people's online posts).

JMT
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Postby Guest » 10/29/06 06:18 AM

from closeupartist.com

"I am quitting magic...I must quit to save my marriage and my life."

So, what must he quit? Magic.
Why must he quit it? To save his marriage and his life.

The context doesn't change with the full text. He still says 1) he's quitting magic and 2) he's quitting magic to save his marriage and life.

While I do agree there is the chance for him to mean his obsession with or devotion to magic, certainly you can see how what says carries the possibility of implicating magic itself? Joe, as a member of the Fellowship of Christian Magicians, you've no doubt already addressed the question of whether or not doing magic is something that God dislikes and have likely arrived at the conclusion that Deuteronomy 18:11 probably wasn't talking about card tricks.

And that's all I'm trying to say. If he was implying that magic itself was to blame in a magic-is-bad sort of way, I take issue with that. If he was simply referring to being career-minded and neglected other areas of his life, I take no issue with that.

Do you agree on that?

My best,
David Rowyn

//
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Postby Ian Kendall » 10/29/06 06:41 AM

David,

Drop it. Seriously. You're beginning to look like an arse, and I'm sure you don't mean that.

Take care, Ian
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Postby Guest » 10/29/06 07:47 AM

While I wouldn't phrased it as bluntly as Ian :) did, I think that his opinion is (as always) sound.

Actually, I agree with you. I don't see why a public statement shouldn't be discussed publicly. As Brad Henderson phrased it so clearly,
Originally posted by Brad Henderson:
..... Miller made statements in an exceedingly public manner. It is then reasonable to discuss those statements and question what them mean .....
But it's pretty obvious that everybody else here disagrees. They don't want it discussed here. So why bother? (That's a rhetorical question, by the way - I hope that it doesn't prompt any replies.)

Dave
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Postby Guest » 10/29/06 08:06 AM

Originally posted by Ian Kendall:
David,

Drop it. Seriously. You're beginning to look like an arse, and I'm sure you don't mean that.

Take care, Ian
You are going to have to respond with rational thought. If you can't think of anything rational, I'll accept name calling as a last resort.

Best,
David

//
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Postby Guest » 10/29/06 09:10 AM

Originally posted by davidrowyn:
Originally posted by Ian Kendall:
[b] David,

Drop it. Seriously. You're beginning to look like an arse, and I'm sure you don't mean that.

Take care, Ian
You are going to have to respond with rational thought. If you can't think of anything rational, I'll accept name calling as a last resort.

Best,
David

// [/b]
davidrowyn:

That's not name-calling. That's the actual way you're coming across.

Are you so insecure that one man's personal opinion (which hasn't been defined, you're just hellbent on conjecturing about it) can put you up in arms? This is amazing!

First of all, Justin didn't say he was quitting magic because magic tricks and magicians are evil. What poppycock it is to keep pursuing this guessing game.

He specifically said that his activities had taken him away from his family and that the priority was, in his judgement, wrong.

Haven't you got a book review to offer or some original tricks/routines to share? The phrase "get a life" comes to mind.

Another phrase that comes to mind is "Do unto others as you would have them do to you". Leave the man be.

Steve Hook
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Postby Ian Kendall » 10/29/06 09:41 AM

I did reply with rational thought: a few inches above this I said...

It looks like magic was taking Justin away from his family too much, his family were not happy and Justin made the (often correct) decision to be with them.

Now, this is purely conjecture on my part, but whatever the reason, whoever thinks this is anyone's business but the Miller family needs to take a look at their outlook on life.


But you still continued in your posts. It was not name calling, it was an observation.

Take care, Ian
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Postby Guest » 10/29/06 10:08 AM

An subjective observation manifested in a descriptive and often disparaging epithet is the very definition of name calling.

As for Hook's implication that I don't have a life because I desire to thouroughly discuss some topic on an internet forum, well, I'm sure we can all see the irony in that as we compare numbers of posts on various boards.

You can fault me if you like. You can fault me for believing that these fora exist to discuss viewpoints that may not be the consensus. You can fault me for believing that expressing a dissenting opinion should be met by others with simply a clarification of their own opinions (as some have done).

Instead, there's name calling and attempts to bully me into shutting up. It seems that what we want is for everyone to get on these discussion boards and stay essentially within 'party lines' so we can all be in agreement and feel all warm and fuzzy. As soon as someone rocks the boat a little, some have lashed out. All I was looking for was for someone to say, "I see how it might appear that way. I didn't feel that's how it was intended." Joe Turner and tomg88 began their responses more-or-less that way, and I thank them.

Apparently, it's ok to talk about Justin's situation and what he said if we hold his hand and find nothing questionable in his statement. But as soon as I simply say "Hey, this is what I took from this paragraph and IF that is what he's saying, then I take issue with that", the hounds are released.

Shame on you all who are fostering the intolerance of (perhaps disagreeable) OPINIONS.

Regards,
David Rowyn

//
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Postby Guest » 10/29/06 10:44 AM

As I am sure (most) of you have been speculating what exactly has happened to me. First, I want to thank all of you who have respected my wishes and have been so supportive in my answers. I have quit magic..meaning I am no longer performing, lecturing, making dvd's,or teaching in any SECULAR FORM (the rest. dvds were made a little over 4 months ago and are just being released..I really do not need 50 coasters in my home..that is why I am selling them on my site..if you must know. After they are gone closeupartist.com will cease to exist) and as far as the rumors and speculations are concerned..those of you who are spreading lies and rumors..do you really have me and my families intrest in mind or does it encourge your pride to have a slap on the back for power over another person..think about it!
A death has occured (not physical, but spiritual) in my life. I allowed magic and what that entails to take over as a god and it also took the place of my family..no more! This has not been an easy week..but it WAS an easy choice to make. I put before you life and death..choose life that you may live..VERY WISE WORDS. So I did. I am going back into the ministry and pursuing the calling God called me to from the beginning. i am hoping to take my gift God has given me and use it for HIS glory to spread the gospel in churches and to the youth..I need magic to have a renovation so it might be used for HIM. Like I said above it took me away from my family. I have a 4 yr old little boy and a little girl on the way. My wife suffered in this more than anybody and to her I am truly sorry.
Just so you all know (you know so I do not get accussed of lying) i have 3 more dvds coming out in the next few months from E and. All of the projects coming out have been shot WAY before I chose this choice.

That about covers it.
Please do not speculate anymore..it really shows bad on the community, let me and my memory go in peace. I want to thank all of you for buying my material and all of your support in a very successful 3yrs. All of your prayers and thoughts have been very encouraging. To all of you thank you from the bottom of my heart. As far as my material is concerned I have some offers on the table for some big companies to buy the rights to some of my effects..so all will not be lost to the wind.
Justin N. Miller
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Postby Guest » 10/29/06 10:58 AM

What a class guy.

Justin, good luck for the future.

Best

John Carey :)
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Postby Terry » 10/29/06 11:47 AM

So, how many licks does it take to get to the center of a Tootsie roll pop? Well? I'm waiting.
According to the owl - 3.
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Postby Brad Henderson » 10/29/06 12:50 PM

The direction we choose to take in our life is our own. Justin has decided to take his life in a new direction and I do not think anyone here faults him in anyway for that. In fact, I would think even if they disagreed with the direction, they would still applaud him for having the courage to choose a different path.

I would also like to think Justin for clarifying his statement. Like many, I found it cryptic. It both concerned me and confounded me. I will also say that depending on the actual meaning intended, it raised issues which are worth discussing.

However, in the interest of respecting Justin as a person, I think the issues relating to magic and its potential effects on people and relationships should perhaps be moved to another thread and discussed in general terms. Again, I personally think these issues are worthy of discussion and feel Justin's public statement as originally presented brings an awareness to them. I do agree though that there is no point in making this discussion about him or his life in any way.

Lastly, I found this sign off troubling.

Originally posted by Justin N. Miller:
Please do not speculate anymore..it really shows bad on the community, let me and my memory go in peace. Justin N. Miller
If one is going to bid farewell, especially towards a Christian path, is placing blame on others really the best way to go about it? While I may come across as exceptionally harsh here, I think taking responsibility for one's actions is perhaps the issue with which we are dealing. I think it is wrong to blame or disparage others when the situation resulted from a a deliberate statement made in a public manner. While I think we should honor the request to allow his memory to fade, I do not think reprimanding us is the way to insure it will happen - especially when all conversations began as a result of statements made in this public fashion.

But, should we wish to discuss the larger issues as some have been trying to do, I do agree a different thread and a general discussion, out of respect to Justin, would be warranted.
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Postby Guest » 10/29/06 02:21 PM

Justin....

Congratulations on your calling. Break a pulpet, son.

Brad and David....You two probably need to stop playing together for a while. Justin's business is Justin's business...I know that at least one of you does not believe in God; you have said so on this forum, and I would ask that you not use that to demean a man's choice to do something that you obviously cannot understand...Neither of you are married, and obviously do not understand the strains that a professional career can have on a marriage and family....

I don't see what the big deal is. If you are seeking some sort of confessional of something that you want everybody to do here, YOU START...I'll follow....but, on second thought, don't try to lead; your comments do not display leadership qualities.

opie (trying to keep Austin sane)
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Postby Brad Henderson » 10/29/06 05:21 PM

Opie, as usually you have completely misinterpreted - intentionally or otherwise - what I have written. I have no problem whatsoever with any course of action Justin takes. It is his life and I applaud him for it. HOWEVER, I do take issue with the fact that others were criticized for wanting to understand statements made in a public forum.

The first person to wonder what was meant was neither David nor myself.

I know that neither David nor I fault Justin for anything. However, his statement was cryptic and, depending on what he actually meant, raised issues worth considering - the very issues you address in your post.

Now that Justin has clarified what he meant, I do not think there is any reason to speculate about him or any of his actions. However, the issues raised are still interesting and worthy of consideration by all of us.

Finally, which one of us does not believe in God? What does any of our personal beliefs have to do with anything? Unlike Justin who chose to make a statement about his beliefs, neither David nor I have. Why does anyone here need to know who is married or has a family? What right do you have to bring any sort of this personal information about someone other than yourself to the board?

I think my statement was clear but will reiterate it, typing slowly so you can follow:

Justin made a cryptic statement which caused many to wonder what he meant. People asked about the public statement. Justin clarified what he meant. There is no longer any reason to discuss him or his situation, however if people find the issues raised important (and clearly they are) perhaps that discussion should be moved to another thread. People may have different feelings about these issues and should not be reprimanded because their thoughts are not the same as others.

If you have any problem with things said by either David or myself, take it up with us personally.
Brad Henderson
 
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