Cellini, what a shame!

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Postby C. Hampton » 11/23/02 07:07 AM

After reading everyones posts in the board I was looking forward to see this man perform/lecture.

He was hired to lecture in Melbourne Florida and I was hopping to see a version of Vernon in the street magic style, the living legeng as they call him, and as such, I was expecting a respectful person, one that knows that there are good days, and no such a good days, that is the most basic thing the street teaches you.

He saw the audience, around fifteen of us, a very small club. He prepared his act, and his selling material, got in his costume, got introduced, got the applause......

The first thing he said after receving the applause was:

"I don't believe that you guys made me travel 800 miles for this audience, I make 2,000 dollars per show and with you I wont make a third of that selling my stuff, I feel like leaving"

To that, the president of the club told him, "Sir, the door is open."

Now, keep in mind that he saw the audience before he prepared the show, also that he was hired for a set fee, plus food and boarding, plus whatever he selled, if he selled anything.
To make things worst we were not hosting this in any restaurant or convention center, no we were not. We were doing this in the house of the club's president, that was kind enough to offer it to the lecturer to stay there, in the same house where Dan Harlan, Martin Lewis, David Harkey and Daryl to name a few, performed and lecture in the past.

Yes, you see it coming, Mr. Cellini couldn't swallow his pride in this particular ocassion and he said "I am leaving", and sure he did. He didn't get his 200 dollars that he was hired for, he didn't get to sell anything, and he didn't get the room for the night. But most important of all, he didn't get the respect of 15 guys, that were eager to see his performance and lecture, and got a few dollars to spend in his material.

I was looking forward to so many good things I've heard, the topit work, the rings, the silks. I even had a interview ready for after the performance to be publish in e-zine La Dama inQuieta

I was having double feelings at the time, initiallty I wanted to beg the guy to stay and perform, but at the same time the insult was sinking in.

We ended up having a great time among the members, we perform for each other and we enjoyed the food and snacks provided by the host.

But those minutes of packing and going back and forth to the car were endless, the insult and the embarrosment felt by Cellini's partner that could't say a word, is something we don't need to experimet in the Magic World.

As the title of this topic says,

What a shame Cellini, what a shame. :(

PS Maybe this post should be under history and anecdotes, becuase this is not rumor or gossip for sure.
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Postby Guest » 11/23/02 09:52 AM

Knowing Cellini as I do, I feel assured in saying that there was something additional that happened prior or during the events you stated. He's not one to get upset over such trivial things, nor is he one to blow his own horn when faced with a perceived reluctance on the audience's part.

It's unfortunate that you didn't get to see him work and it's also too bad no one had the insight or apparent ability to mend the perceived affront. It would've been far more productive to ask a question or two at the time the events transpired, than to place a post here now.
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Postby MakenU1der » 11/23/02 11:27 AM

I saw Cellini in Clearwater on 21 Thursday for my first time. He did some of his street show to open. Then explained everything from his tables and how they developed to his custome. His toppit is Brilliant and he told some great stories. He spent a lot of time after the lecture to answer lots of questions and sign stuff, I bought his personal set of Phoenix cups and he signed the box. I can't imagine what would have made him act in such a way with you guys. Maybe his comment was said in jest and that the "there's the door" comment was just as offending as was his. I don't know. I might have been offended if al you guys could muster up was just 15 people. Maybe your club pres. should have been the better one and swallow his pride. And instead of showing him the door he might have showed him rewarding a small group can be. If you get a chance to see him in a better light - don't miss it.
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Postby C. Hampton » 11/23/02 11:52 AM

As I mention in my post, I really was interested in seeing him perform and lecture. But there are several things to consider. He was aware of the number of people there to see him before he set up the show, therefore was not a last minute surprise. Second thing, I was a guest there, therefore it wasn't my place to start any type of convincers. You guys might be correct as far as people handling things in a different way, but I have no idea of how I will react to someone insulting like that in my own house.

Defenetly the response of the president was a little more elaborate. When Cellini said what he said, the president ask him if he was kidding, cause all of us though that he was ready to make a joke or that this was part of the act, and Cellini came back saying no I am not kidding, I feel like leaving. Then is when they showed him the door.

I don't have any doubts about the skills of Cellini as a magician, although I haven't seen him, but you will think that there are better ways to address things and defenetly better places and better timing.

Well, maybe someday I'll get to see a different Cellini, because defenetly don't want to meet the Cellini I saw yesterday.

To MakenU1der if you can email me privately, I would like to dicuss some topit issues with you.

Thanks to all, and I wish you a better Cellini experience.
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Postby Richard Kaufman » 11/23/02 11:58 AM

Sometimes the lecturer's point of view is a different one.
I did a small lecture tour in the mid 1980s arranged by Bob Karlbach of Texas. The pay was crap: $150 per lecture. To earn that (and whatever I could sell), I travelled to (not in this order--can't remember the order): Dallas, Houston, Midland Texas, Oklahoma City, Tulsa Oklahoma, and finally New Orleans. I had decent crowds in three of the six cities: Dallas, Houston, and New Orleans.
In Midland Texas, six people came. Fortunately I was told in advance that it was a small group, but "they would buy a lot." So, I was not surprised when there were so few people--and they DID buy a lot.
In Oklahoma City, five people showed up. The local group was led by a nice fellow: Tony Devine. They didn't buy so much.
In Tulsa, in the shop of the local dealer (who was a very nice guy), I had one person show up. One. The owner of the shop was embarrased and bought stuff from me. I was told that if I had been doing a lecture on children's magic there would have been greater attendence.
I did a lecture in Columbia, Georgia, once. One guy showed up.
So, traveling long distances to find very few people can be disheartening for a lecturer. Particularly if it happens several cities in a row. Lecturing is an exhausting and somewhat whore-ish occupation. Selling your own stuff is not pleasant--at least not for me. Cellini is not a well man and has had bad heart trouble for years.
I want to make it clear that, assuming Carlo's report is accurate, I'm not offering an excuse for his behavior--but those reading this thread should understand that there is nothing fun or glamorous about giving lectures. It's ball-breaking and exhausting work and most people find it a necessity in order to make a living. If they had a choice, they wouldn't do it.
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Postby C. Hampton » 11/23/02 12:20 PM

Richard,

I agree to the fact that it has to be depressing getting a small audience, it has to be pretty sad. My only point is that based on you knowing that you have such an audience, can make the decision right there not to perform, if you choose to do so. You are not going to be very popular still, but that is a different story.

But Cellini had dinner with us before the event, he got to see us and judge the audience, he was told that we were waitng on 3 folks to get to the lecture and they did before the whole situation arised. So, what broke my heart was to have everyone line up and gear for the show and the lecture and that decision made at the last minute in a very unpolite way, that is all.

At the same time I wish Cellini the best with future endevours, and good luck with his health.
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Postby Lance Pierce » 11/23/02 12:41 PM

Unfortunately, Richard, my home town has never been a stronghold of magic in the midwest, but at least I was one of the five who showed. I hope we partially made it up to you in other ways while you were here... ::big grin::

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Postby MakenU1der » 11/23/02 02:23 PM

Well no matter what was said had it been me - my house, I would have done everything to turn it around - my pride would have been in making everyone enjoy the lecture and my home. It seems strange that you all had dinner and hung out then some comments we're made and that it got ulgy. But - none the less letting him walk out would not have been an option. Maybe a private min im my office and he might have done his lecture with a slight limp. j/k I just hope you and your club can over look such a meanal thing, and if your ever in Clearwater come to TBMC and see what a great magic club does.
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Postby Richard Kaufman » 11/23/02 05:40 PM

Lance, I recall my post-lecture trip to "Valley of the Dolls" with great fondness. :) Particularly as I get older.
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Postby Guest » 11/23/02 09:58 PM

I've been to a few magic shows, magic lectures, and other non-magic related performances where there have been low-turnouts. In many of these cases, I've seen the performer make comments about the low turnout. I've also seen performers rip the audience for the low turnout. I never understood it. The comments about the low turnout, are usually directed at the audience (for some strange reason). Why rip the people who actually showed up? Just thank the people and do the show.

For Cellini to walk out on a show in the circumstances mentioned is unprofessional and unethical.

From an economic standpoint, it makes sense to do the show. It's not like he could actually go out on the street the night of the lecture and pull in more money than he would in the lecture (if you add up the profits from merchandise sold, lodging and fee).

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Postby Guest » 11/24/02 12:01 AM

So tell me a little about yourself Harley that you can divine what was improper about Cellini's actions. You weren't there and I can guarantee that you don't have all the facts. Yet in spite of peering at the one sided story through your little computer screen, you have the omnipotent ability to pronounce for us all that he was so? Man, you must pack them in.

By the way, your post seemed to concentrate upon the financial rewards of work. Such a narrow view tends to diminish one's regard for the "art" side of our business.
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Postby pduffie » 11/24/02 03:36 AM

Richard said: "Cellini is not a well man and has had bad heart trouble for years."

I remember Fred Kaps at Blackpool convention. While he was great on the shows, he was bad-tempered and rude off-stage. However, unknown to many, he was very ill. In this case, terminally.

I also recall the great Robert Harbin losing his temper on stage at an audience member in a Glasgow theatre. Again, Harbin was not a well man when he appeared in this show.

As Richard pointed out: a lecture tour can be an exhausting experience. Cellini is a natural showman. Its in his blood. I saw him on the streets in Edinburgh years ago. He was brilliant. But he's not in the best of health now, and someone needs to tell him to "slow down." Our health is THE most valuable thing we have.

Best Wishes

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Postby Terry » 11/24/02 07:42 AM

So, traveling long distances to find very few people can be disheartening for a lecturer.
Particularly if it happens several cities in a row. Lecturing is an exhausting and somewhat whore-ish occupation. Selling your own stuff is not pleasant--at least not for me.
One would have to have a complete love of what they do in order to subject themselves to this kind of life. Strange towns and people, lonliness, being away from family & friends, bad food, bad accomodations, etc.

Anyone who is willing to do this IS deserving of respect and attention.
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Postby Jeff Eline » 11/24/02 08:53 AM

Originally posted by Terry Terrell:
So, traveling long distances to find very few people can be disheartening for a lecturer.
Particularly if it happens several cities in a row. Lecturing is an exhausting and somewhat whore-ish occupation. Selling your own stuff is not pleasant--at least not for me.
One would have to have a complete love of what they do in order to subject themselves to this kind of life. Strange towns and people, lonliness, being away from family & friends, bad food, bad accomodations, etc.

Anyone who is willing to do this IS deserving of respect and attention.
You know... I agree that it's probably a long road, tough conditions, and lonely, but if what Carlos says is true, it's pretty awful on Cellini's part to make those comments and then walk out.

IF he knew ahead of time what the conditions were, knew the venue, knew how many were going to be in attendance, then you suck it up and be a professional. It was his choice to lecture, no one's forcing him. You take the good with the bad.

Now, I wasn't there, so I don't know what really went on, but if Carlos' retelling is acurate, I think it's pretty bad.
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Postby Steve Hook » 11/24/02 09:27 AM

Eric:

I've just read all the posts and yours is the oddest reply. I looks like Carlos has laid out the facts appropriately (twice) and it appears that Mr. Cellini had lapse of judgement (fatigue and poor health notwithstanding). I see no reason for your negative and sarcastic response to Mr. Race.

I've been attending lectures for twenty-one years (my first was a Steve Beam lecture, yet I went ahead and attended more lectures afterwards anyway [ ;) ]). I've never experienced what Carlos described, though an exhausted John Carney did bait the club pretty intensely one evening back in the '80s...but even he performed the entire lecture, after only three hours sleep.

Unless you and Harley have a long-running feud we aren't privey to, one can only admonish you to lighten up on the defensiveness.

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Postby Guest » 11/24/02 10:07 AM

Originally posted by Eric Evans:
By the way, your post seemed to concentrate upon the financial rewards of work. Such a narrow view tends to diminish one's regard for the "art" side of our business.
I mentioned the economic aspects since Carlos' original post mentioned that one of Cellini's stated problems was the lack of money he would receieve from the lecture.

Eric, are you saying that it is ethically correct as a magician to bail out on a gig at the last minute because the audience isn't large enough, or that they won't spend enough money on the lecture? It was wrong to bail out on the show since those who did show up did nothing wrong. Why punish those who want to see you?

We are not discussing the case of illness or some family emergency. Cellini left because of an attitude problem. It's totally wrong and unexcusable.

When you're performing on the street, you could probably pick and choose your shows at whim, but if you make a promise to give a show or lecture, you should deliver if the other party meets their obligations to you. If a performer wants to work for a larger size crowd, he or she could always have an option in his or her contract requiring a minimum attendance.

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Postby Guest » 11/24/02 10:16 AM

cellini said he was "lied to" and makes $2000.00 per performance. since we never spoke, the lie had to come from someone else. he said he was not going to share his information and skills for what her preceived was his sales income before starting the lecture. he was to get a $200.00 lecture fee and most members spend on an average $75 to $100. so he walked out on over $1300.00. he was receiving two days of free board and room in my home on top of all this. the entire club talked about this for 45 minutes and were insulted and discusted with his attitude and less than professional manner. he drove 150 miles from tampa to melbourne. peter f. crummey, president
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Postby Richard Kaufman » 11/24/02 10:32 AM

I'll tell you about my worst experience ever as a lecturer, and it has nothing to do with the size of the group.
It was in Allentown, PA, and the lecture was arranged by a bum named Rich Crowley. I can't remember if it was an IBM or SAM ring.
Anyway, it was a terribly frigid night and a friend drove me all the way from New York. It was a long drive. When we arrived we were given dinner at a local restaurant, which was nice.
Then we were brought to a school of some sort where the meeting was to be held in one of the classrooms. The meeting started at 8pm--but that was the business meeting. We were asked to wait in another classroom that was NOT heated, and it was damn cold.
Why were we waiting in an unheated classroom? Because the jackasses in the club were debating the cost of a ticket to their annual banquet! We sat in the cold room for over two hours while the idiots debated.
Finally, after two hours late and with frozen, stiff hands, I entered the room. Since they had been arguing for two hours, the club members were sitting with their arms folded and scowls on their faces.
They wondered why they got a [censored] lecture!
Then the bum Crowley had the nerve to write a poor review of my lecture in either Linking Ring or MUM. Needless to say he didn't mention ALL the circumstances.
That was the last time I ever lectured for a club affialiated with a magic organization, and one of the last times I lectured in the United States, period.
If that situation arose now, I would have walked out--no question.
Here's another good one: I went to Rome with my wife about five years ago and was the guest at a local club meeting. Tony Binnarelli was a very kind host. I asked if I could get up at the club meeting and do a trick to pitch subscriptions for Genii. I did, and that was that.
The rest of the meeting consisted of other members performing some great tricks.
When a Ring Report of this event ran in The Linking Ring (you know, the good-times guide to local club reports where no member has ever given a bad performance), it was written up that I was supposed to give a lecture that evening and the members were angry that I only did one trick. Huh? Never figured that one out.
So, not only won't I give lectures, but frankly it seems dangerous for me to even go to a club meeting!
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Postby Guest » 11/24/02 12:08 PM

If what was reported was the truth and there were no additional circumstances, then I am very disappointed to hear that Cellini decided to walk out and to be rude about it by telling everyone how far you traveled and how much you normally make.

In those cases, your choices are to focus on the people that didn't show up or focus on the ones who did. A real professional would have fulfilled his obligations despite the number of attendees.

I also don't get Eric's response, unless he has information that would totally justify what happened.
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Postby Guest » 11/24/02 12:16 PM

Richard Kaufman is apparently one of the only ones here who can see the other side to this issue, as he seems representative of a large portion of those here who are not being judgemental based upon the limited facts.

Human nature is so that we tend to diminish our own roles in unfortunate episodes, especially episodes that are high profile or are met with a great deal of expectation surrounding them, whether that expectation is felt by ourselves or others. Among a weaker class of individuals still, they would prefer to make the episode one specific person's fault, than to actually weigh the matter carefully and find where they might have averted the circumstances that led to the unfortunate incident itself. This is the weakest and lowest form of human nature and one that we all indulge in, to some degree or other, time and again throughout our lives -- we're not perfect.

When someone that I don't know grabs the horns by the bull and lashes out at someone I know and have immense respect for, I'm gonna get pissed. And if that happens to offend someone standing by then so be it. But don't recite such mealy mouthed ovations such as, "well if what he says is accurate.." because I know it's not. Most importantly, if such caveats are indulged in, they can pass by largely unnoticed by some and the accumulative weight can quickly turn into a charge that becomes impossible to refute for the cloud of controversy it raises.

We've heard from a "guest" of the President's house, and now the President himself has made an appearance here -- we have both of their stories. All their recountings seem to place blame squarely on Cellini's shoulders exclusively for what would appear an irrational act. There have been several people throughout that seemed to indicate that Cellini's alleged actions don't jive with their own recountings of their experiences with Cellini. That would seem to mean nothing though, or have little weight with some of you. But then, the thing that really set me off, someone who by his own account has attended "a few lectures" read a "few books" has pronounced Cellini unprofessional and worse yet, unethical (with that nagging caveat of "if what this person says is accurate"). Well by the heavenly balls of Bosco, give me a friggin break.
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Postby Jeff Eline » 11/24/02 12:50 PM

Originally posted by Eric Evans:
But don't recite such mealy mouthed ovations such as, "well if what he says is accurate.." because I know it's not.
You obviously know something we don't about the incident that evening. Please share.
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Postby Lance Pierce » 11/24/02 01:09 PM

I remember going to a comedy club once where there was only a small group in the audience. The main performer started making jokes about the lack of attendance and then gradually moved into abusing the audience for the low turnout...as if it was our fault and there was something we could do about it.

I also remember attending a weekend get-together once where Lennert Green was in attendance. As things were wrapping up, Lennert asked me if I was going to be able to see his lecture later that evening. I answered that I couldn't; my flight was for earlier that afternoon. He looked surprised and said, "Don't move," and he ran off. In about two minutes, he came back into the room, lugging a large case, sat down at a table, and did his entire lecture. For me. He knew I wasn't going to buy; he knew there was no profit here...and he seemed ecstatic to share what was so special to him.

On the human chessboard, all moves are possible, and they each garner the appropriate results. I think about the comedian who mercilessly punished people out of context and a kind man who favored me and made me feel more special than I had in a long time -- two polar extremes. I'll have memories of them both for the rest of my life...for different reasons, and I know which one I want to be like when I grow up.

Cheers,

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Postby C. Hampton » 11/24/02 01:13 PM

Mr Evans,

for not being there, you have a pretty good nerve to call us liers.

I will respecfully ask you since you are such a good friend of his, to get his side of the story, or better yet, the opinion of his I bet still embarrassed partner, God bless her heart.

I would love to hear their side, maybe they point me in a direction I don't see right now.
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Postby Guest » 11/24/02 02:27 PM

Originally posted by Eric Evans:

... But then, the thing that really set me off, someone who by his own account has attended "a few lectures" read a "few books" has pronounced Cellini unprofessional and worse yet, unethical (with that nagging caveat of "if what this person says is accurate"). Well by the heavenly balls of Bosco, give me a friggin break.
Please do not take my words out of context. I did not say that I have attended "a few lectures." I said that I have attended a few lectures where the audience was small and the lecturer abused those in attendance for the small turnout. I have attended atleast 3 dozen magic lectures over the last 5 years, not including short lectures that I've seen at magic conventions. I have also attended many non magic lectures on other subjects.

I'll restate my opinion. Bailing out of a lecture at the last minute, under the conditions that Carlose mentioned, is unethical and unprofessional.

Harley
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Postby Guest » 11/24/02 03:00 PM

Without being in THAT situation with Mr. Cellini, it is very hard for anyone to understand what went on. There are two sides to every story and unless we know the whole facts, then it is no one's place to comment except those involved.

That said, lecturing can be a very exhausting, underpaid job BUT one that many find worthwhile. I myself only book lecture tours when my schedule is slow enough to allow it and as such LOVE lecturing. It allows me to travel and visit with magicians and mentalist all over the world and to share what I know with them, make new friends and contacts and despite the small pay scale, does in fact make money at a time that I normally would not be making any. But more than a money making venture (which most lecturing is not) it is a rewarding experience that should only be done by people that enjoy meeting others that share their enthusiasm. I myself love lecturing when I can regardless of the audience size of which I have had as few as 10 and as many as 100.

PSIncerely Yours,
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Postby Jim Riser » 11/24/02 03:04 PM

Carlos;
The situation you have described is very unfortunate for all concerned. We all go to magic lectures with certain expectations. I was fortunate enough to have been in the audience for Jim Cellini's recent lecture here in Tucson. I went to the lecture fully expecting to purchae the Cellini Book and a set of the Cellini copper cups from him for my collection. I also expected to learn a bit about street performing from an expert.

The audience here in tucson was not very large - probably no more than 20 people. All were enthusiastic about what they were to witness.

Mr. Cellini was a student of Slydini and is very well versed in magic. He has an excellent knowledge of his art. His lecture was interesting, entertaining, and educational.

I was surprised at several things though. Rather than the "Cellini Cups", he was using a well dinged set of old Charlie Miller Cups. His clothes were from a Goodwill Store or Salvation Army Store. The selection of items he was selling was very limited and not items most people would have wanted (no book/no cups). The exception here being his pattern for his outstanding topit.

I felt that if he had arrived with a better selection of items, he would have gone away richer. My impression was that he might not be able to afford the inventory necessary to make his lecture tour profitable. When he was healthier and working the streets, he may well have taken in the supposed $2000 per day; but was this income ever invested in a retirement plan or set aside for a rainy day? And was this income sustainable or merely intermittent? It was obvious that he is not rolling in money and could have used the Florida lecture fee and any profit from sales. I am surprised that his vehicle even made it to Florida.

Carlos, I'm sorry you missed his lecture. Cellini still has a great deal of magical experience and knowledge to share. The routines he demonstrates in his lecture are very good. The street info he shares is well grounded in experience. I think you would have enjoyed his lecture and gone home with a better understanding of "the street".

I will say that Mr. Cellini appeared tired. After travelling all across the country with little income/profit, if any, to show for the lecture tour, he may have just plain "had it". He was probably discouraged and overly tired. It is a shame things turned out the way they did and your expectations were not met. I found him to be likable, entertaining, and very knowledgeable - though woefully under stocked with merchandise.
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Postby C. Hampton » 11/24/02 04:23 PM

Mr Riser mentions the topit. That was one of my main interets in the lecture, but since I didn't get the chance to watch it, I was wondering if you guys can point out advantages of his topit compared to Ammar's.

Thank you.
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Postby Scott » 11/24/02 06:47 PM

I have to agree with the people who have been defending Cellini. I met him at a lecture earlier in the year, and although he appeared "rough around the edges" in appearance, it was probably one of the most educational lectures I've ever attended. Roughly 20 people showed up to see him. We found him to be charming, nice and he would go out of his way to make sure you understood anything he did. His wife(?) was there, and we found both of them to be very nice people. It's very odd to read this thread. Something else MUST have happened. It's too far out of character for it to just have "happened". He's far to professional and has far too much experience in dealing with all kinds of situations and I struggle to believe it just happened. I think something MUST have been said or done that put him in that mood.

Just my opinion. But, I wasn't there either, so it's only a observation from afar.
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Postby Richard Kaufman » 11/24/02 10:18 PM

Yes, it really does seem like something must've happened, however that "something" might not have anything to do with the small group, or anything at all to do with the lecture. He may have had something else on his mind and got stressed out. It happens.
The same thing might have happened even if there were more people there that night--frankly, we'll never know.
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Postby Andrew Martin Portala » 11/25/02 04:20 AM

The show must go on!!!!
I don't care if you have 1 or 1,000 people or your dying.(well may be not dying but you can die during the show which I have done many times)
You do the show!
These people took time to come to see perform. You should make the best of it.
You never, never come out and say you feel leaving.
This is B.S.
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Postby Guest » 11/25/02 06:26 AM

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Postby MakenU1der » 11/25/02 07:31 AM

I couldn't agree with you more
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Postby C. Hampton » 11/25/02 10:37 AM

Jim is a pro, he works when the work is there period. That is his nature. He is also a man who loves to share what he knows. He would have lectured if only two people had shown up because he wants nothing more than to spread the gospel of his art form.

Luckily, a busker knows, humility is a virtue.
In addition to what I said he said, when one of the members asked him who he though he was to do something like that as he was packing everything to leave, he replied:
"Do you expect me to share the knowledge of a lifetime for two hundred dollars?"

Cellini in this ocassion didnt want to share anything, what were his reasons? I really don't know, what I know is the he wasn't humble whatsoever and that no one provocated him in this instance.

He may be a true profesional, the best among the best in his trade, but he didn't demostrate that in this ocassion.

I do not know the guy, he may be ill as it was mention. All I can do is explain what happen that night from the point of view of someone that was eager to see him perform and to learn from such a wealth of knowledge, but instead got chew up for attending his lecture.
I don't care how much you care for this GREAT magician guys, but even the best are rude and unpolite sometimes, and that night he was very good at it.

Once again, I wish him the best on his future endevours and with his health problems.
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Postby Jon Racherbaumer » 11/25/02 11:47 AM

This is the kind of hot-button topic that evokes many and diverse responses. In this case, it's obvious that some "sensitive nerves" have been vigorously plucked. I doubt, however, that the highly personalized messages qualify as being GOOD gossip--the kind that adds further knowledge, promotes useful transparency, and leads to deep inquiries regarding important, tangential subjects (such as the nature of professionalism, moral obligation, good and bad manners, the nature of the lecture circuit, the clash of expectations and realities, and so on...)

If indeed Cellini is guilty of bad behavior and poor judgement, it does not follow that this example of behavior summarizes a man's character or behavior over a lifetime. I think it's probably an isolated case. This leads me to wonder why the original message of censorious displeasure was posted on this Forum in the first place? As evinced by the various posts and counter-posts, we are still no closer to ascertaining the truth of what happened and why it happened. We are certainly less clear about Cellini's reasons or motives.

In my experience, Cellini has always been a paragon of courtesy, responsible professionalism, and human decency. He is a good guy, usually giving more than he receives.

All of us, needless to say, are guilty of bad behavior and poor judgement from time to time. Right now, except to say what I've already said, I'm reserving any DIRECT commentary about this matter until I've talked to Cellini, himself. Until then, I'm curious as to why are discussing a local matter, which at best was likely an atypical anomaly?

Onward...
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Postby Guest » 11/25/02 12:06 PM

Originally posted by Carlos Hampton:
Jim is a pro, he works when the work is there period. That is his nature. He is also a man who loves to share what he knows. He would have lectured if only two people had shown up because he wants nothing more than to spread the gospel of his art form.

Luckily, a busker knows, humility is a virtue.
In addition to what I said he said, when one of the members asked him who he though he was to do something like that as he was packing everything to leave, he replied:
"Do you expect me to share the knowledge of a lifetime for two hundred dollars?"

Cellini in this ocassion didnt want to share anything, what were his reasons? I really don't know, what I know is the he wasn't humble whatsoever and that no one provocated him in this instance.

He may be a true profesional, the best among the best in his trade, but he didn't demostrate that in this ocassion.

I do not know the guy, he may be ill as it was mention. All I can do is explain what happen that night from the point of view of someone that was eager to see him perform and to learn from such a wealth of knowledge, but instead got chew up for attending his lecture.
I don't care how much you care for this GREAT magician guys, but even the best are rude and unpolite sometimes, and that night he was very good at it.

Once again, I wish him the best on his future endevours and with his health problems.
How do you know no one provoked him? Were you by his side the entire time and did you hear every conversation he had all night?

Here is what I know to be fact, Jim has been touring the country to rave reviews and this is the first negative thing I have EVER heard anyone say about the man. Not just on this tour but ever.

It makes me wonder I'll tell you that, because I do know the guy.

How do you know someone wasn't rude to him? How do I know you were not all rude to him? Your president said you all sat around talking about what a jerk he was for 45 min. after he left. You sound like a great group.

Your grass doesn't look so green, or all that cut and dried from my side of the fence.

And for what it's worth I have seen Jim part with the crown jewels FOR FREE on many occasions. Money is not even the man's third or fourth motivation. If it were he would be wallowing in cash.

The man loves magic and will share it with anyone who is polite and truly interested. I've seen him do it repeatedly. He has done it with me.

Like I said, it really makes me wonder.

Best,

Dan-
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Postby Matthew Field » 11/25/02 12:09 PM

Originally posted by Jon Racherbaumer:
I'm reserving any DIRECT commentary about this matter until I've talked to Cellini, himself. Until then, I'm curious as to why are discussing a local matter, which at best was likely an atypical anomaly?
Bravo, Jon.

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Postby Guest » 11/25/02 12:19 PM

Originally posted by Jon Racherbaumer:

In my experience, Cellini has always been a paragon of courtesy, responsible professionalism, and human decency. He is a good guy, usually giving more than he receives.

All of us, needless to say, are guilty of bad behavior and poor judgement from time to time. Right now, except to say what I've already said, I'm reserving any DIRECT commentary about this matter until I've talked to Cellini, himself. Until then, I'm curious as to why are discussing a local matter, which at best was likely an atypical anomaly?

Onward...
Well said Jon!
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Postby Richard Kaufman » 11/25/02 01:33 PM

I suggest we let this matter rest until someone talks to Cellini and, if cares to explain, we'll hear some more about it.
For now, please no more posts in this thread.
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Postby C. Hampton » 11/25/02 01:38 PM

Mr Hustle said

How do you know no one provoked him? Were you by his side the entire time and did you hear every conversation he had all night?
My question is how do you know someone did?

I am not putting in the line of fire the virtuosity of this magician, nor his life acomplishments, I am just saying that he had a very bad timing about getting pissed off at an audience that was eager to see him, and willing to pay him.

You can call liar everyone else in the world Mr Hustle, if that is what makes you happy, but let me tell you that I have better hobbies than pointing fingers just for the fun of it.

I do not have an establish friendship with the club, or the president of the club, as a matter of fact, this happen to be the first event that I was attending with this group of magicians, so in a way you can say that I was not on the side of anyone involved.
But it is been establish that no matter how many explanations are giving to you are going to convince you of anything. Believe it is not my dutty or desire to do so either, for that I will refer you again to Cellini's partner, that told one of the attendes while was holding the door for her:

"I hope you guys are not mad at me".
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Postby Guest » 11/25/02 02:29 PM

**snipped response**
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