Hocus Pocus Magic & Mark Wilson

Discuss the latest news and rumors in the magic world.

Postby Gord » 01/22/08 11:47 AM

The FresnoBee.com site has an article about Hocus Pocus Magic and their upcoming magic swap meet.
Also in the article is a bit about Mark Wilson. At the end you will read his opinion of Criss Angel.

HERE.

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Postby CraigMitchell » 01/22/08 01:16 PM

"He violates all the rules. Speaking as a professional magician, I will tell you that you cannot levitate from the top of one building to another without using television tricks. My fear is that using these kind of tricks will make it like before I began and people will start thinking that true magic can't work on television," Wilson says.

Now what is the objective of pulling a magician down after achieving success ?

What does Wilson's comment do for magic in general ? And for someone reading the article would it not come across as pure sour grapes ...

By all means Mark Wilson is entitled to a personal opinion on Criss Angel - but publicly sharing that view ( and at the same time putting everything that Criss does down to TV edits ) is unprofessional and unbecoming of a performer of Wilson's stature ...
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Postby Ian Kendall » 01/22/08 01:42 PM

Perhaps he is frustrated at how magic has developed on TV over the last decade? As he has said on several occasions, when Wilson started on TV everyone thought the magic happened through 'camera tricks', and that has become somewhat of a cliche about TV magic shows. Wilson worked hard to disprove that theory, and to a large extent he succeeded.

I imagine now that TV magic _is_ largly done with camera tricks and editing, he may see his hard work undone, and largely trivialised.

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Postby Dustin Stinett » 01/22/08 02:54 PM

Ian is correct.

A few weeks ago I was at the Magic Castle. I overheard a pair of women chatting. I wrote down part of their conversation so I would not forget it:

Woman 1: Have you seen Criss Angel on TV? My son just loves him.

Woman2: Yes. But Im suspicious of that stuff on TV.

This exchange is exactly what Mark Wilson has been warning magicians about for a very long time now: Well before Criss Angel (Copperfield pretty much started taking advantage of the medium, for example, levitating across the Grand Canyon).

I have spoken with Mark at length about this issue; hes very passionate about it and for good reason. I suspect that the quote used in the article is a condensed version of what Mark actually said to the reporter. But his concern is that, eventually, more people will think like Woman2 above and will stop tuning in. Then there will be no magic on TV and everything he busted his ass for will be gone.

Is this an extreme thought? Hardly: Mark uses the analogy of the big money quiz shows that were popular in the 50s and 60s until it was discovered that onejust onewas definitely fixed. Viewers then assumed that all of them were fixed so they stopped tuning in and the networks stopped carrying them. It took decades for those types of shows to come back to TV.

Some of what Criss Angel is doing has the potential to kill magic on television. People who do not know better will think everything he doesand anyone else doesis fake. Its a legitimate concern and, sadly, few people are heeding Mark Wilsons warnings. As a result, hes becoming more vocal about it. It has nothing to do with sour grapes. Mark Wilson begrudges no one their success as long as they are not hurting the art to which he has devoted an entire lifetime.

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Postby Brandon Hall » 01/22/08 03:12 PM

I, personally, happen to agree with Mark Wilsons comments regarding CA. I also happen to agree with Mr. Mitchell. It did no good for him to air those feelings publicly. I think most uf us understand where he's coming from, having debated these issues endlessly, but to laymen it's just so much sour grapes.
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Postby Dustin Stinett » 01/22/08 03:28 PM

Which is why Im pretty certain that Mark said more, allowing for some context, but that was (conveniently) left out. Reporters these days just love creating controversy wherever they can.

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Postby David Scollnik » 01/22/08 05:53 PM

Originally posted by Dustin Stinett:
Which is why Im pretty certain that Mark said more, allowing for some context, but that was (conveniently) left out. Reporters these days just love creating controversy wherever they can.

Dustin
I think the context was clearly given earlier in the article, over several paragraphs, when Mark Wilson was describing his early career in television and what the naysayers and tv execs told him.

To be honest, I read the article and didn't come away thinking that MW was especially "putting everything that Criss does down to TV edits" (as an earlier poster said). He cited one obvious example of editing / television tricks (i.e., levitating from building to building), but I'm not sure the average layperson would automatically assume that means that the same modus operandi applies to everything else CA does.
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Postby Dustin Stinett » 01/22/08 07:03 PM

David,

Yes and no. I know from my interviews and conversations with Mark what he says about this issue and there are gaps; a big one in particular.

Mark is quoted as saying that Criss Angel violates all the rules.

What rules?

I can tell you with almost 100% certainty that Mark told this reporter what those rules are (there are three that he specifically created for magic on TV and recites them like the Commandments when talking about this issue), but they all do not appear in the piece.

Thats a big piece of context in my opinion.

Dustin

PS: The rules are:

1) Shot live in front of a studio audience
2) No trick photography, edits, etc. (preferably done in a single shot)
3) No magic trick performed that cannot be done in a live situation

Criss Angel breaks all those rules.
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Postby Bill Palmer » 01/22/08 09:37 PM

Damn right reporters do their best to generate controversy. In 2005, I was interviewed by some reporters from the BBC in connection with the Magic Circle Centenary. I was told beforehand that the interview would concern exposure. I was not told beforehand what the title was going to be -- "Trouble at the Magic Circle."

Reporters are putzes. Except for the ones from the BBC. They are schmucks.
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Postby CraigMitchell » 01/23/08 02:06 AM

Does airing your grievances though on a public platform have any impact whatsoever on your cause in this specific instance ...

Complaining about the use of TV editing to a local reporter is by no means going to change the status quo.

Wld be interesting to know if Mark Wilson has had the conversation with Criss Angel ?

I'm sure Criss would have a very different take on matters as I can't see him subscribing to the belief that he is "hurting the art" ...
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Postby Frank Dudgeon » 01/23/08 10:43 AM

Dustin said:

"Which is why Im pretty certain that Mark said more, allowing for some context, but that was (conveniently) left out. Reporters these days just love creating controversy wherever they can."

Too true. However, there is another possibility. I was interviewed by a reporter for a major newspaper years ago about some specialized knowledge (traditional folk music.) When the paper went to press, the reporter called me to apologize. He had quoted me accurately, but an editor, seeking to shorten the piece, had left out a crucial part of the quote.

The editor didn't know what a difference it made, but it made me look foolish.
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Postby Bill Palmer » 01/23/08 12:36 PM

Originally posted by Craig Mitchell:
Does airing your grievances though on a public platform have any impact whatsoever on your cause in this specific instance ...

Complaining about the use of TV editing to a local reporter is by no means going to change the status quo.

Wld be interesting to know if Mark Wilson has had the conversation with Criss Angel ?

I'm sure Criss would have a very different take on matters as I can't see him subscribing to the belief that he is "hurting the art" ...
What makes anyone think that airing any grievances whatsoever on this forum will have any effect at all on the way anyone in the media or in the magic business conducts themselves in the first place?
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Postby Gord » 01/23/08 01:39 PM

If people stopped airing their grievances, it would be a very quiet world.

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Postby Rennie » 01/24/08 08:09 AM

I stand firmly behind Mark's comments about Criss using camera tricks. I think he ruins "Magic on TV" for other magicians by doing it.
If you compare Mark Wilson & Criss Angel side by side, there is no comparison. Mark Wilson is a class act, who dresses and performs professionally.
Criss on the other hand wears clothing that looks like it came from a Goodwill Store, his hair is in totall disarray and he must think wearing lots of jewelry is classy. He also has a holier than though attitude.
I for one, would not cross the street to see a Criss Angel show.
Everyone may not agree with me, but that is my humble opinion for what it is worth.
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Postby Richard Kaufman » 01/24/08 08:42 AM

Unfortunately, what you really get if you compare Mark Wilson and Criss Angel side by side is one guy who has no chance of getting on TV now with his style of magic, and another guy who is about to start the fourth season of the only regular TV series devoted to a magician in 40 years.

The only thing that matters here is the perception of TV executives, and Criss Angel's success (no matter what you think about him or the way he does magic on TV) will inspire others of that type. Angel's problem is that, at the age of 40, he'll soon be too old to appeal to his audience. So, his clock is ticking. The live show in Vegas will make the transition for him pretty easy.

Traditional magic doesn't seem to have any place on TV in the eyes of TV execs--that's the only thing that matters at the moment.
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Postby Terry » 01/24/08 11:57 AM

The live show in Vegas will make the transition for him pretty easy.
Considering his TV show depends heavily on editing and the MTV quick camera shots, do you really think people will be that interested in watching him do a 1.5 - 2 hour show?

Also, people will be expecting him to recreate effects from the show and he won't have the benefit of editing to make it work.

He may have as short a Vegas career as the blonde guy who worked with Pam Anderson.
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Postby Pete Biro » 01/24/08 11:59 AM

I think his live show will be fine. The 'blond guy' four-walled a time slot and left for other committments.

Why not just wait and see how Angel's live show plays. He has a huge following, thanks to TV, and has been very excellent live.
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Postby Jim Riser » 01/24/08 12:26 PM

Rennie;
To me your sig line does not quite match your post above. Criss angel is all about effect - from his personal appearance to his show. This overall effect is what makes him popular.

I find both Mark Wilson and Criss Angel to be likeable performers. Mr. Wilson's style has become rather dated and his voice was always a hinderance. Mr. Angel's style is currently very "in". I'd like Criss Angel in person. I can more readily identify with him than many performers. I can fully understand why he is popular with the younger set - even older folk like me. He is entertaining.

I really do not care how he does effects on TV. The performance style and likeability factor are more important to me. It is my hope that his live show does well. We'll certainly try to catch the show. He has done a lot more with his magic than most of us. Besides that, he can certainly drive a go cart!

I choose to support Mr. Angel in his new show.
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Postby Dustin Stinett » 01/24/08 01:14 PM

I dont think we should mistake style for substance.

Mark Wilson has no illusionsno pun intendedthat his style is dated. You can not compare clothing, presentation, or even the style of camera work used on Marks old shows and Criss Angels shows. Mark doesnt. He and I have talked about the style of shoot used today: The quick-takes and odd angles, etc. He recognizes that this style is a must for modern TV and does not consider it an issue. While a single shot is preferable (and if well done, quite effective: Think Tommy Schlamme), its not a set-in-stone necessity. But that does not mean that magicians should take advantage of that style to create illusions that, in any other circumstance, are impossible (see rule 3 above). That is Marks complaint and its a legitimate one. Viewers will begin to recognize (or suspect) it for what it is and stop tuning in. Then the network runnerswho are never at fault for anythingwill place the blame squarely on magic itself and once again say that people dont watch magic on TV because they believe its faked.

Marks point is that it doesnt have to go that way. There is plenty of very good magic that can be done on television that doesnt need fixing.

Now, as for his live show, I think some people forget that Criss Angel has been around the block with that one. He knows what it takes to hold an audience for an hour or more because hes done it before. I too look forward to seeing that show.

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Postby Rennie » 01/24/08 03:00 PM

Originally posted by Jim Riser:
Rennie;
To me your sig line does not quite match your post above. Criss angel is all about effect - from his personal appearance to his show. This overall effect is what makes him popular.
Jim,
My sig line " The effect is the important thing, how you achieve it is not" is a direct quote from Ted Annemann. When he said that I do not believe there was magic on TV, and I do not believe if there was that he was condoning camera trickery.
I just feel if you use camera trickery to perform magic, you do not need to know anything about performing magic,just work the cameras. Does not seem fair to have a magician who has been practicing for years to perfect his act for TV and have someone come along with torn jeans, sloppy hair style, multiple rings and necklaces go on TV using tricky camera shots and become the next Houdini by using camera tricks. Do you agree ?
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Postby Richard Kaufman » 01/24/08 03:12 PM

Providing that he doesn't have a celebrity burn-out of some sort, or get into an intractable fight with Cirque, Criss will have a very popular live show at the Luxor.

He's been a live performing magician for many years before TV, and he has a large skill set to fall back on. He knows how to present magic on stage, and he's charismatic in that setting. It should be an exciting show.

As far as duplicating stuff seen on TV, by using the known principles of stage magic and theater, he will be able to duplicate anything done on the TV show. That's not much of a problem.

Personally, I'm looking forward to the seeing the live show because it should present the performer I saw before the TV series took him down a path that very few of us seem interested in.
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Postby Dustin Stinett » 01/24/08 03:14 PM

Rennie,

I think yours is a completely unfairand incorrectassessment of Criss Angel and his talents. Criss Angel is a fine magician who has worked very hard to get where hes at. And not everything he does takes advantage of the medium; not by a long shot. The problem is that he does cheat sometimes and pretty soon no one will bother to make the distinction. The perception will be that all of it is camera trickery and, since perception becomes reality in some peoples minds, thats when the house of cards collapses. Criss doesnt need to cheat to be good.

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Postby Dustin Stinett » 01/24/08 03:23 PM

Originally posted by Richard Kaufman:
As far as duplicating stuff seen on TV, by using the known principles of stage magic and theater, he will be able to duplicate anything done on the TV show. That's not much of a problem.
I don't know about that one. Will he levitate off the top of the Luxor every night in front of an audience? Will he float from the roof of one building to anotherin front of an audiencewithout any visible means of support?

Im pretty certain there are a number of other things he will not be able to duplicate as well.

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Postby Richard Kaufman » 01/24/08 04:21 PM

Considering he's going to be inside a theater, he could levitate pretty much anywhere he damn well pleases. And if they wanted to construct scenery that replicates the tops of skyscrapers, he can levitate from one to another or simply float up.
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Postby Jim Riser » 01/24/08 04:27 PM

Rennie;
I understand what you are saying; but thought the sig line did not quite go with the post. Perhaps the sig line is "dated"?

I do not mind how Criss Angel dresses (for effect and image). I can completely understand your feelings on the dress and use of camera trickery; but it just does not bother me as much as it seems to bother you. I just look at it all as being part of the character he is portraying. This is a popular and well received character too.

Very few of his TV effects can not be duplicated on a smaller scale on stage. As for levitating from building to building, Dustin, they will not be able to bring the Luxor lamps onto stage anyway. He can certainly levitate on stage with no visible means of support by any number of methods. Remember there is money being thrown at his show which allows more being done on stage than many other performers can even imagine. IMHO - He has the stage experience/skills to pull it off. I'll be there to see it.

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Postby Dustin Stinett » 01/24/08 04:28 PM

Comparing a levitation in the theater to David Copperfield floating across the Grand Canyon and saying that they are the same effect because they are both levitations is a pile of garbage, and that is what Jim and Richard are now doing in order to say that Criss Angel can duplicate everything he does.

Do I get to say I can vanish a car because I can make a Matchbox Car disappear in my hands, versus causing a full-sized Ferrari to vanish in midair? Going by the standards you are applying, its the same effect.

Youre playing with semantics now.

If Criss Angel can levitate from the top of the Luxor, and actually astonish everyone there who can see it, then he can take his audience outside and close his show with it.

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Postby Richard Kaufman » 01/24/08 05:15 PM

Well, I suppose if you're going to be stubborn about it, you can't duplicate something indoors that relies on certain physical landmarks that can only be found outdoors. He can duplicate any of the effects INDOORS--that is, in an indoor setting. He can walk up a wall or vanish from the top of a motorcycle in the middle of a jump, etc. But since the Grand Canyon is not indoors, I guess neither Criss nor David could duplicate that.
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Postby Dustin Stinett » 01/24/08 05:43 PM

The rule has nothing to do with indoors or outdoors. The rule is that the illusion should be able to be duplicated without the assistance of the advantages provided by the medium of television.

Can the illusion of levitating off the top of the Luxor be duplicated within those criteria?

Heres an example of a trick performed on The Magician that, because Bill Bixby didnt have time to learn its actual mechanics and perform it for the camera well enough, they cheated a tad. It was the Serpentine Scarf (untying scarf). Instead of setting up a reel with Bixby, Larry Anderson was off frame pulling the thread. But, its a trick that can be duplicated without having a guy out of the shot pulling the strings.

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Postby Richard Kaufman » 01/24/08 07:14 PM

Dear Mule, you've created a situation where no answer will satisfy you because of the way you've framed the problem.
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Postby Jeff Haas » 01/24/08 07:35 PM

All that's going to matter in Criss's Vegas show is that it's an experience. No one is going to compare the exact tricks he did on TV and whine that he didn't do them in his live show. In fact, the show will probably be promoted as all-new and have material "too shocking" for TV.
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Postby Dustin Stinett » 01/24/08 08:28 PM

Jeff,

That is not the point at all. Please reread the thread.

Richard,

It is not at all an impossible situation. Its a very simple yes or no question. It can or it cannot be performed. So the answer to the question is "no" because it cannot be performed without the aid of television advantages.

You just wont say it!

Say it!

SAY IT!!!!
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Postby castawaydave » 01/24/08 08:52 PM

Most shocking item from this thread:
Chris Angel is 40 years old!!!??? Ay carumba!

--Talk about setting yourself up for one of those "dude poses as a teenager and attends high school for months before being found out" type stories... :rolleyes:

I mean really--how many hip street dudes want to pattern themselves after such an OLDSTER!!?? 40 years old? He might as well be dead.

P.S. I am 44 :p
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Postby Dustin Stinett » 01/24/08 09:08 PM

44.

I wish I was only 44.

(Both in age and waist...)
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Postby castawaydave » 01/24/08 10:44 PM

"It is a sobering thought, for example, that when Mozart was my age...he had been dead for two years." --Tom Lehrer
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Postby CraigMitchell » 01/24/08 11:32 PM

"Does not seem fair to have a magician who has been practicing for years to perfect his act for TV and have someone come along with torn jeans, sloppy hair style, multiple rings and necklaces go on TV using tricky camera shots and become the next Houdini by using camera tricks. Do you agree ?"

A non-forum member had the following in response:
'Sounds like the same argument people used when DOUG HENNING appeared on the scene in his jeans, long hair and t-shirts'
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Postby Dustin Stinett » 01/24/08 11:38 PM

About the clothing; absolutely. But Doug Henning followed the "Mark Wilson Rules of TV Magic" on all of his shows.

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Postby Rennie » 01/25/08 12:04 AM

Originally posted by Craig Mitchell:
"Does not seem fair to have a magician who has been practicing for years to perfect his act for TV and have someone come along with torn jeans, sloppy hair style, multiple rings and necklaces go on TV using tricky camera shots and become the next Houdini by using camera tricks. Do you agree ?"

A non-forum member had the following in response:
'Sounds like the same argument people used when DOUG HENNING appeared on the scene in his jeans, long hair and t-shirts'
Ah yes, but Doug DID NOT use camera tricks, his first few specials were actually LIVE. Had long hair, but was neat and his clothes were not in shreds. Cannot compare the two..
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Postby Pete Biro » 01/25/08 12:00 PM

I still say wait and see ho the live shows go.
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Postby Roger M. » 01/25/08 01:04 PM

Originally posted by Richard Kaufman:
Personally, I'm looking forward to the seeing the live show because it should present the performer I saw before the TV series took him down a path that very few of us seem interested in.
BINGO!!!

I don't EVER watch the TV show....but at the very first opportunity when in Vegas, I'll be at the live show.

Brand new theatre, Cirque resources, Criss himself as entertainer, state of the art EVERYTHING, and you could go on and on....

This is Criss Angel, the magician, live on stage right in front of your face.

He's either going to have the chops, or not......I guess we'll see......BUT, I suspect the chops have been there all along, just masked by electronics.
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Postby Terry » 01/26/08 04:53 AM

Re stage wear - it is a sign of the sloppy culture that is pervading today.

I was watching the HBO special on Don Rickles and the comment was made that during the day, people would dress appropriately and made the "experience" special. Today, most attendees look no different than the homeless guy on the street.

This isn't just affecting show business, but all forms of life. I AM NOT trying to establish a dress code, but identifying a trend.

Re Chris Angel - I hope his live show does go well both for him and magic. I was trying to identify that some of the camera trick tricks won't have the benefit of editing if recreated live.
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