Magic Forum Revealing Passwords to Magic Sites

Discuss the latest news and rumors in the magic world.

Postby Bill Palmer » 12/24/05 08:39 PM

If you have a magic forum or a section on your web site that is protected by a password, you might want to consider changing it.

http://magicsecrets.suddenlaunch3.com/index.cgi , which is hosted by Valentina has a tell-all section that tips the password to several sites.
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Postby Guest » 12/25/05 12:56 PM

Actually Bill, we have now put the passwords bit in the members section, so you have to register to see them which will keep them a lot safer.

You may not think there is much difference, but it will keep the casual visitors away from them and pretty much anyone who registers for magic boards has a genuine interest.

There are some strong feelings about passwords so I'm listening a bit to public opinion on that.

(To those who don't know my forum, we only answer general magical knowledge questions for the newer students of magic so they can learn a bit more.

Eg Who was the professor?

We don't give passwords for sites like ellusionist forums or passwords that people have paid for, or passwords to secret forums eg Magic Circle etc. We have had those type of passwords posted on our forum, but they have been deleted as in spite of what people think of our magical ethics, we won't have anything to do with hacking or that kind of stuff. We are education focussed.)

Best Wishes
Valentina
x
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Postby Richard Kaufman » 12/25/05 02:04 PM

Who the heck is "Valentina"?
Subscribe today to Genii Magazine
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Postby mehtas » 12/25/05 02:47 PM

Originally posted by Richard Kaufman:
Who the heck is "Valentina"?
Good question Richard.

Obviously someone who does not want to be known and have plenty of time on his hands.

Could it be some strange tactics to lure kids into something ?

Heck, who am I to say that.

Think of those who would go to any length to protect a secret. and here is a generation that thinks giving away secrets is OK.

:mad:
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Postby Guest » 12/25/05 03:21 PM

I just read a response in the thread where they ask for the secret to the Infusion coin penetration.

Omygad. Ihate this trick. I practised 4 a long time and got frustrated and hit the glass too hard. TOO HARD. Ibroke the glass and my hand started bleeding profusely.
Talk about karmic justice. The dvd clearly states ideas on how to practice (COMMON SENSE). I guess people aren't very smart.
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Postby Guest » 12/25/05 03:53 PM

Awww guys, come on, give us a break.

Beginners in magic get a very rough ride on the internet and we are trying to help out by easing people into magic with a forum which is a little more user friendly to them.

We are looking at the comments that magicians have made about ease of access and addressing various issues like moving the general knowledge passwords to a more secure location.

We'll also be looking at making other parts of the site more secure, but that will depend on various member surveys and opinions.

As for the comment about luring kids, it is untrue, silly, and inappropriate for a forum like Genii.
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Postby Bill Palmer » 12/25/05 05:03 PM

You can't give the password to the Magic Circle forum, because it varies with each member. That's also true of Mind and Magic.

But it's awfully presumptuous of you to think that somehow letting the "beginners" have a password to an area that someone obviously wants to keep away from them is somehow good for magic. It may or may not be.

Most of us were beginners at one time or another. We earned our knowledge. Nobody said, "Here's the key, come on in."

And the idea that by making people register to get on your forum just to peek at the passwords is truly silly.

So, some guy comes on and registers as Joe Schmoe from Kokomo and gets access. Now he has the passwords.

That's not protection.
Let us keep our secrets. That's part of magic. Or don't you get that?
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Postby Guest » 12/25/05 05:50 PM

With regard to passwords to the Magic Circle or Mind and Magic, these passwords can be got by hacking techniques. We have had passwords posted to this kind of site, but we have deleted them. That was the distinction I was making. When folks think "passwords" they sometimes get the wrong idea, so I was clarifying the issue.

You are right when you say we can't say how magic will develop on the internet. We aim to get more people interested and more people wanting to develop their skills. What I want to do is put the traditional view too, so those who choose that path from our site can have the full information. If you don't believe me you can look at the thread I have made sticky from a Magic Cafe member critcising the concepts of the site and urging people to look at other routes. Also the advice given to members that they may want to consider other methodologies.

We are attracting large numbers of new people every day and I intend to have a section devoted to SAM, the IBM, and the Magic Circle giving links to those organisations and how members can develop their interest through those routes should they so choose.

What is good for Magic? Who can say? Should we have more interested people to give more opportunity to those selling magic or should we restrict the numbers who can enter through cloaks of secrecy thus ensuring greater exclusivity for those who practice. It's an unanswerable conundrum.

As for your Joe Schmoe argument, any person can indeed register and get access. This is true of places like Magic Cafe where you are a prominent member. I have some statistics from when a link was posted from the Cafe Secret sessions to our board. We had 70 hits and 15 sign ups in a short period from lurkers in the banquet room who never even posted there.

Some of these sign ups immediately started posting "how is such and such done" requests as might be associated with "secret seekers" The very secret seekers that experienced magicians condemn are in their midst constantly, but afraid to post for fear of having their heads bitten off.

I have seen in a month or two, some of these people develop into folks who were researching and sharing ideas because they were able to communicate in a friendly environment. They may well become the stars of the future.

I do get your idea that secrets should be kept among magicians. I never give away methods when I perform, that goes without saying. But an internet magic site is like a magic book in a bricks and mortar library. There are many other books to read just as there are many websites to visit. Only the people who are interested will find and read our site, just as only the people interested in magic will find the library magic books.(In the vast majority of cases).

And, are we going to ban libraries? Is there any passwords to protect the magic books there? Any locks on their covers? It's only because the internet is a relatively new concept that folks are unsure of its role in the development of magic.
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Postby Jonathan Townsend » 12/25/05 07:28 PM

Originally posted by Magicwand:
...I do get your idea that secrets should be kept among magicians. I never give away methods when I perform, that goes without saying. But an internet magic site is like a magic book in a bricks and mortar library. There are many other books to read just as there are many websites to visit. Only the people who are interested will find and read our site, just as only the people interested in magic will find the library magic books.(In the vast majority of cases)....
Hello, and thanks for visiting and discussing these topics with us.

Above you equate a magic site with a magic text in a library. At what point in discussions of methods and mechanics do you close that book?

Discussions of material in OLD books?
Discussions of material from OLD items
* by old I mean no longer on the market and the inventor is dead.

How about:
Discussions of currently published works?
Discussions of currently marketed items?
Discussions of works which are not on the market?

Where do you close that open book?

Regards and Merry Christmas,

Jonathan
Mundus vult decipi
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Postby Guest » 12/25/05 07:34 PM

So what incentive is there for people to publish their ideas when people like you will just give them away? You say you promote the growth of magic by exposing beginners to more information, but if enough people shared your ignorant views, then the growth of magic would be halted completely. There would be no more marketed effects and no one would share. If it comes down to that, do you REALLY think the kiddies on your message boards will be able to contribute anything at all?

The fact of the matter is, you'll continue doing what you're doing. In fields of scientific research, yes, you would get sued for taking somebody else's ideas. Yes, you can own an idea, contrary to the belief on your message boards. Magicians, for the most part, will do nothing to fight it because most often it is to their disadvantage to bring their case to court. They'll end up losing more money than they gain, not to mention time. I really hope that one day a magician with enough financial backing does bring a case to court to set a precedent to at least show your kiddies that they are WRONG.
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Postby cgscpa » 12/25/05 09:07 PM

Originally posted by Magicwand:
But an internet magic site is like a magic book in a bricks and mortar library.
I visited the site to see what the fuss was all about. What I don't understand is how your analogy works when members post questions about how certain effects work. For example, I noticed that someone posted "how does Blizzard work", and a forum member proceeds to post all the workings and handling of Blizzard, a marketed effect.

People don't walk into a magic shop, ask how an effects works, and then leave without buying it. I'm all for helping beginners but how is this helpful to beginners and not harmful to the trick's creator?

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Postby Bill Palmer » 12/25/05 11:14 PM

Here's the way it works, Valentina. Now that you are "giving away the store" by letting your subscribers post the workings of marketed effects to what is essentially an open forum, you are in violation of the ethical rules of the major magic organizations.

Now, I realize that you don't have to belong to IBM, SAM, the Magic Circle or any of these other organizations to be a performer, but it certainly doesn't help you to be booted out of them for supporting ethical violations.

And to think that you are allowing people to post the workings of an effect like Blizzard, which is Dean Dill's, when Dean is in the hospital in a full body cast, strapped for cash really shows a lack of sensitivity.

I also suspect from your spellings that you are either located in the UK or that you used to live there. But you say that you are a "magicienne from the US."

Nobody uses the term "magicienne" any more. That's really old school.

Very non-P.C.
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Postby Terry_Holley » 12/26/05 08:21 AM

Anyone out there know this "Ed Reinert" who is exposing various routines?

http://magicsecrets.suddenlaunch3.com/i ... =airheaded

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Postby John LeBlanc » 12/26/05 08:28 AM

Originally posted by Terry Holley:
Anyone out there know this "Ed Reinert" who is exposing various routines?
Try here:
http://starbright.biz/starbright_008.htm

And here:
http://www.e-chords.com/cifrastipos.asp/idmembro/146495


John
http://www.escamoteurettes.com/blog/
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Postby Guest » 12/26/05 08:33 AM

The main thrust seems to be that our more user friendly approach to discussing magic will have a negative financial impact. It's really all about making money or losing it. Dollars, law suits, and sales. Is that all that matters in life?

But if you really want to talk dollars, I look at it differently. We are going to be increasing the market by pulling more people in at the bottom end. More people will be interested in magic, and more people will be doing magic. These are the kind of people that will buy an effect like Blizzard whether they know how it's done or not. Plenty of folks have bought Blizzard even though they know the method. This isn't something that a complete lay person is more likely to buy; you need to have some interest in magic, and that interest has to start somewhere. I don't think the market is in any way saturated. There's not many people doing magic compared to other performing arts. It's a market that can be developed and increased.

Bill's premise seems to be that folks will buy Blizzard because they want to find out how it's done. My premise is that people will buy it because they are interested in magic, and the more people interested, the bigger the market. We're simply developing another gateway, pulling new people in off search engines and introducing them to magic on the internet in a friendly way. We don't push people one way or the other. We've got prominent links to sites like Genii, the IBM, and SAM, so folks who want to develop their interest via those routes will do so, if it is right for them.
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Postby Guest » 12/26/05 08:59 AM

Originally posted by Magicwand:

We are going to be increasing the market by pulling more people in at the bottom end.

You mean pulling those who play football in the streets all day, and break car panels sometime ??

As long as they are kept away from the street its fine with me.
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Postby Terry_Holley » 12/26/05 09:21 AM

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Postby Guest » 12/26/05 10:09 AM

^^

:D No one claims all explanations and methods posted are correct. But, some people have fun discussing this kind of thing.

It's the same as the news group alt.magicsecrets. I know the discussions are not in the same league as those here for example, but if people enjoy it and develop their interest then that's cool in my book.
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Postby Bob Baker » 12/26/05 10:14 AM

Valentina....

The female Valentino??


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Postby Bill Palmer » 12/26/05 05:09 PM

You notice that she doesn't even show her face in her avatar. Her Asian friend in the UK at least doesn't hide behind anything.

This is one of the most unethical sites I have run across in the time I have been on the internet. I would put up a notice on my anti-exposure pages, but I don't want to give anyone any hints on my site as to how to find this panderer.

Or should I say "panderess," if there is such a word.

But I suppose that in the spirit of Christmas, I should say, Ho, Ho!
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Postby Guest » 12/26/05 10:58 PM

magicwand writes:
We're simply developing another gateway, pulling new people in off search engines and introducing them to magic on the internet in a friendly way.
Baloney.

All you are is a cheap exposer.

Magic is about fun and mystery and you provide neither. Instead, you provide a workless, artless, useless site that will eventually spoil the fun and ruin the mystery for everyone...and I mean everyone.

That makes you the enemy.

No quarter.
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Postby Guest » 12/27/05 10:10 AM

Well, we want to work alongside the established magic community, not against it.

I think all the personal abuse is a little unfair to be honest. I'm not abusing any of you or your opinions. I didn't think personal attacks were allowed on this forum.

It's not as though we're doing anything for profit either. Non of us is making a cent from it. If anything, places like Genii or the IBM or various magic dealers are going to benefit as we recommend them and will feed them traffic.

One person, in a recent IBM ring discussion on our site, even said that he thought he could work with our site and guide some of our members to other parts of the magic world. That's cool. Folks are free to make informed choices.

I've got a vision for more people getting into magic and more recognition in places like schools for the benefits it can bring in acting and performing skills and the disciplines of practice, education, and creativity in the development of routines.

We're not going to see eye to eye on this at the moment. But, who knows how things will develop. Perhaps we will become more difficult to access as time goes by. It depends on many factors, but we're certainly not averse to change and listening to criticism
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Postby Terrence » 12/27/05 10:31 AM

Doesn't matter whether or not you're doing this for profit.

Inventors sometimes spend years thinking, testing, obsessing, putting sweat equity and involving others time and money into producing marketable effects.

There is no room in the Magic Community for this kind of blatant exposure. It has always been unethical to expose marketed effects.

Ladies and gentlemen - unholster your wands and put a stop to this.
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Postby Guest » 12/27/05 12:48 PM

I personaly like the fact that it is difficult to acces different aspects of magic. I goes nicely with the "Nothing worth doing is easy" philosophy that I hold dear. Entering the magic comunity shouldn't be any easier than it absolutely has to be. It was difficult for me, and I learned more for it. Honestly, I found the magic community to have becomeing a little too warm and inviteing. For the record, while I am new here,I feel confident someone in this forum would vouch for me, and I think that kind of thing should be done more often.

With all that in mind, why is it I can not register for the Magic Cafe' or Talk Magic UK, and they will not respond to my email requests for asistance. I said it should be dificult, not impossible.

Drew Heyen, Magician
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Postby mehtas » 12/27/05 01:46 PM

I wonder what the dealers think about this ?

Anybody knows who this Valentina person is ?


:genii:
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Postby skeptic555 » 12/27/05 03:23 PM

Since this is at least partially a discussion about ethics, I found the following interesting. Seems the main page employs a trick to increase traffic to the site - that is, hiding text with "keywords" that the search engines look for. These folks have gone so far as to include popular MISSPELLINGS as well as the correct spellings to increase hits (Kriss, Chris, Cris and Angle are alongside the correct Criss Angel). See for yourself by dragging your mouse in the area at the lowest part of the page. Now, I know there is nothing officially wrong with such a practice, but it just feels a little off, ya know?

Here is the text:

"Secrets of magic forum will enable you to discuss conjouring secrets and passwords to magic sites without any prior knowledge. It's not an exposure site but we do have free access to magic secrets and methods and you can participate in the discussion. Improve your magic, learn new magic, learn secrets here. Secrets of magic are exposed but we ask you respect the art of magic. However, by coming here students of magic can learn new methods and sleights. If you want to peform magic and illusions like David Blaine or David Copperfield or Criss Angel then look no further. This is the forum for stage magic, illusion magic, close up magic, street magic. We cover the secrets of cards, coins, ropes, silks, cups, balls, wands and more. We do ask that secrets are not exposed but used for your magic and conjuring learning and improvement. All manner of effects, tricks, and secret methods for magic are posted on our board. You don't need to be a skillfull Magician like David Blaine or David Copperfield or Penn and Teller or Michael Ammar to learn the secrets of magic tricks here, but you will learn tricks and effects similar to those on Ellusionist or performed by magicians such as Kriss Angel and David Blaine. All we ask is that you are a student of conjuring magic and you want to learn new effects. It's an ethical exposure and exposing of magic effects and conjoring secrets that we provide, so if you want to perform magic illusions like David Blaine or David Copperfield or Criss Angel, then come here to learn the secrets of magic. Other things you'll find are magic passwords to magic sites together with free magic on the net links to free tricks and free secrets. It's not exposure because all site members guarantee to be genuine students of magic lnterested in learning the secrets of magic. Read material from conjuring greats such as Dai Vernon, Houdini, and Houdin. Find links to sites such as Penguin Magic, Ellusionist or the Magic Cafe. Magic secrets exposed won't enable you to be a magician like David Blaine or David Copperfield or even some of those guys on ellisionist but the magic entry tips and conjuring secrets should improve your ability to do illusions. David Blane is featured in the streat magik thread as well. And there is a an ellusion forum with Dave Coperfield triks. Even Brad Christian of illusionist tricks are discussed. Majic is in many respects ellitist but we encourage beginners and those who want to learn free magik including street elusions by Cris Angle or the street ilusions of Dave Blayne. Respect of the free magick we offer is asked for as would be given for any performer like Paul Daniels or Doug Henning or Ricky Jay. We reveal the secrets of the zig zag, the substitution trunk, or sawing a lady in half. Whether it is a Chris Angel effect like Card though window, a Michael Amar classic like Card on ceiling, a David Blaine levitation, or a classic from Bobo or Hugard, we will explain it on magic secrets forum. Even the Copperfeild grand illisions will be discussed and the methods explained as will tricks by Penn and Teller. There are other places to study like the Mark Wilson Course or Tarbell which also reveal magical methods or conjuring secrets but we believe the ellisions of Kris angel and David Blane are better places to learn conjoring. This is knowledge rather than exposure of artists such as cyril takayama. Cyril's salt shaker or salt grinder though table is a wonderful effect we will explain. The magic circle, IBM and SAM are against us making conjecture on the method secrets for cyril takayama street magic and restaurant magic, but we will help to teach cyril's magic for educational purposes, not exposure."
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Postby Guest » 12/27/05 03:31 PM

Steve: You have found a secret trapdoor. There was supposed to be a mirror hiding that :p As you say it's simply a text to give the search engines a hand. You'd be suprised how many people can't spell Criss Angel.

Mehtas: We'll be sending the dealers more business because we are helping more people become interested in Magic. QED above.

Drew: Did you try registering at Magic Cafe with a web based email address? Eg Hotmail/yahoo etc. They're not accepting those ones because people kept signing up and being silly on the board. You need a isp or work email address. Give that a try if you haven't already. Conversely, they had problems at Talk Magic with registrations and for some reason a Hotmail address works better there. Good luck!

Back on topic, we've got a special forum now which explains about the IBM and SAM and a SAM Vice president & IBM member has agreed to be a moderator so that he can help people on the board with ideas about traditional magic ethics and stuff like that, should they wish to go down that route.
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Postby Guest » 12/27/05 04:19 PM

My limitation on The Magic Cafe' has been finding the "register" link to click. On Talk Magic UK, I found it, but clicking the "I agree" link on the EULA sends me directly to a page that claims "that username is already in use"!?!?!?!? While I may simply be overlooking the register link on the Cafe' the problem with talk Magic UK is pretty clearly a technical error.

I'm not realy worried about what exposure does to me, I'm worried about the effect it has on our audience. Then there of course the aforementioned lack of magic specials these days, though there is always Criss Angel. Makeing magic too easy, exposeing, performing the unrehearsed, all of these have the same bad effect, it jades our audience. It gives them the impression that the point of magic is to try to guess how it's done, and that's not the point. No one who is unlikely to perform magic well should ever know its secrets. As there is no good test for this, the best way to help ensure only the qualified do, is to make magic as un knowable as possible. To put up roadblock where ever possible. If the words "make it easier" apply, then I dis aprove. Magic should flow pretty freely between magicians, but nowhere else. Except the two stupid forums that I can't register on, I am so angry my hair is on fire.
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Postby Guest » 12/27/05 04:19 PM

You are doing tons of damage to the art!

Stop now!

Stage magic is suffering still, due to what Valentino did almost a decade ago. Prior to the Masked Magician specials on Fox we could always look forward to at least one magic special on network TV showcasing the finest acts on stage. Now TV execs won't touch that stuff. He, like you, said he was exposing secrets for the betterment of the art. That's a crock of SHaving cream!

With people like you around, how much longer does close up and street magic have before it too is beaten down mercilessly. I despise all sites that expose secrets instead of kindly directing the eager to learn towards the vaults which were so well protected long ago. Then, letting the eager to learn, do the work that is involved.

I think I speak for most working magicians here. We've all experienced children and adults yell out,"I know how that's done, I saw the Masked Magician," or,"I know of a website that teaches that trick!", even when we're performing something we created on our own and its secret is nowhere to be found unless they had a view of our private journals. The respect for magicians is already low enough. You are doing so much damage to us. Really!

-Chris Welles
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Postby Guest » 12/27/05 04:33 PM

The register page on Magic Cafe is here:

http://www.themagiccafe.com/forums/bb_r ... =agreement

Unfortunately they are not taking registrations at the moment. It may have something to do with the holidays. If somebody silly registers, they may not have the staff to cope with an attack on the board. I'm just guessing.

Did you try Magic Bunny?

http://www.magicbunny.co.uk/phpBB2/index.php

I'm not a member there, but some of our forum people are and its a very well run board supposed to be the best and biggest in the UK.

/offtopic
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Postby mehtas » 12/27/05 04:57 PM

Could pour all my anger through keyboard but Im afraid Richard wont allow it :rolleyes:

They just dont understand that some magicians make their bread & butter performing magic.

Not only its unethical, its IMMORAL.

You CANT giveaway something that is NOT yours. This is just like going into someones house and stealing.

You will NEVER better the art by throwing secrets away.

If you want to learn, you always start A B C D.... and NOT Z Y X W ..... (nuff said)

Looking at some of their posts in the forum, I suspect they have a genral feeling of dislike against magicians.

I just hope someone holds a string that can be pulled on them.


:genii:
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Postby Guest » 01/11/06 01:59 PM

Update 11 January 2005

We have looked at the valued opinions of the members of Genii forum and have also asked the opinion of our own 350 members, some of whom are professional magicians and members of the IBM, as well as seeking other opinions in the magic world. Obviously we have to strike a balance between many different views, but the outcome is that viewing of certain forums relating to methods can now be obtained by registration only.

We also make it clear that only magicians or genuine magic students should register. This additional step we feel will mitigate against inadvertant exposure to members of the general public.

We also have additional hidden forums which require 100 posts and 500 posts for entry and it's possible some material may be moved to these areas. This is an even more stringent post requirement than the Magic Cafe or Magic Bunny.

We will monitor the situation and may introduce even more exacting requirements for access to various levels depending on the circumstances.

Thanks to the members of Genii forum for their input over the Christmas period.
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Postby Guest » 01/11/06 02:30 PM

As one that designs magic I can promise this idiot one heck of a law suit if I hear of exposure on the pieces Ken Whitaker and I developed. I'm also letting all my watch dog buddies know about this site. A few of them are already geared for war over this "file sharing" trend that's happening with current books, videos, DVDs, etc. that are being "lent" through a virtual library e.g. no one has to buy the dang things!

Hope and pray I don't find any of my material or things I've worked on even remotely near your site. My lawyers can get very ugly and I could use the added income to help cover some of my medical costs.

Who does it hurt?

People like me!
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Postby mehtas » 01/11/06 04:32 PM

Anybody knows who this Valentina person is ?
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Postby Guest » 01/11/06 07:57 PM

What we do is completely different to pirate file sharing. It's perfectly legal to take an effect or a routine, and discuss in one's own words between interested students, how that effect could be achieved. In some cases the method advanced will coincide with the one published, in some cases it won't. In either scenario it's legal. There's only a certain number of ways any given effect can be achieved anyway.

We have many moderators, like on this site, who will remove directly pirated material or any requests to undertake sharing of copyright dvds etc.
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Postby Guest » 01/12/06 07:31 AM

Originally posted by Magicwand:
What we do is completely different to pirate file sharing. It's perfectly legal to take an effect or a routine, and discuss in one's own words between interested students, how that effect could be achieved. In some cases the method advanced will coincide with the one published, in some cases it won't. In either scenario it's legal. There's only a certain number of ways any given effect can be achieved anyway.

[b]We have many moderators, like on this site, who will remove directly pirated material or any requests to undertake sharing of copyright dvds etc.
[/b]
So that means you'll be taking down the entire web site, correct?

:whack:
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Postby Guest » 01/12/06 08:12 AM

They are not taking the website down, are you kidding?
You boys just generated more traffic to that place then they had in months!
Good work. :)
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Postby Mark Collier » 01/12/06 08:24 AM

Valentina (or whatever your real name is),

Legal behavior and ethical behavior do not always coincide.

Do you think the creator of a magic effect deserves to have the option of trying to profit from his/her idea?

What right do you have to interfere and diminish the potential for the creator to make a profit?

Many of the most prolific creators don't perform for a living and therefore rely on sales of their inventions.

Your argument that it won't hurt sales is wrong.

Do you think people that learn the secret will still buy Blizzard when they can just buy a blank deck and do the trick w/o compensating Dean Dill?

Sometimes the secret is in a well made prop (Bob Kohler and Joe Porper come to mind). Public disclosure still hurts magic because it jades audiences.

The worst person to have in the audience is someone who knows a little about magic secrets but hasn't learned to respect magic as a performance art.

All of our secrets are available to almost anyone who is willing to invest enough time, effort and money.

When you give away secrets to other peoples inventions, you damage their ability to be compensated for their contributions to magic.

You also demean and devalue our art/craft and make it more difficult for performers to achieve the desired effect on an audience.

I would bet that the type of people that read your website are the type of people that would discuss methods to effects DURING a magic show.

I feel you are devaluing the magic effects that I use and have paid for. You are jading audiences. You are making it more difficult for people to be compensated for their contributions to magic.

Do you see any truth in these assessments? Do you honestly think you are helping magic by exposing the work of others? If so, why do you hide behind an alias?

Mark Collier
Mark Collier
 
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Location: Santa Barbara, Ca

Postby Fred Zimmerman » 01/12/06 08:31 AM

"Obviously we have to strike a balance between many different views..."

Why? Let's say I want to form an ethical position on bank robbery. I go out and poll 100 people, including other bank robbers.

The results are mixed. Many think Bank Robbery is not ethical - that it's illegal. Many think it's just fine - to hell with people with more money than me.

Hmmm, so using your logic, "obviously we have to strike a balance between many different views..." so my resulting ethical stand is that Bank Robbery is sort of OK, if I have the right motives, and if I don't use a real gun, just make the tellers THINK I have a gun.

Wow, what a great way to think. It's revolutionary.

Oh wait, I forgot - people who think like this are called criminals.

My bad.

Fred Zimmerman
Fred Zimmerman
 
Posts: 102
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Location: Chicago

Postby Jon Racherbaumer » 01/12/06 12:10 PM

Since I've been out of the loop lately, missing whatever topical issue is buzzing "out there," I'm late to this particular party. However, the best thing I've read regarding the possible consequences of this kind of activity is Jamy Ian Swiss's chilling essay-parable in the latest ANTIMONY. Check out "The Last Layman" and then make your proactive plans...

Onward...
Jon Racherbaumer
 
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Joined: 01/22/08 01:00 PM
Location: New Orleans

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