You might hate me for this but I do not care

Discuss the latest news and rumors in the magic world.

Postby Guest » 04/21/06 01:12 PM

I had to sign on to make this comment.

While performing at a recent tradeshow I said hello to a fellow performer and they made some arrogant comments about there ability as a trade show magician. Working across from this so-called pro I was annoyed yet excited about seeing this person work.
Heres my review!
The worst tradeshow magician I have seen to date. This performer actually had the nerve to ask me to hold off on starting my presentation so they could gather a crowd.
I said NO WAY my client comes first. After I saw their first presentation, which was horrible I did everything in my power to make sure this person would never gather a crowd. I did such a good job their client was talking to me about an upcoming tradeshow. HATE ME but its called business. The better I look the more work I get. Period!
And then I thought you should not be out here if you can not get a crowd. What makes this really bad is most people on this forum would know this performer by name. They have given advice on performing and plenty of people here follow that advice. This brings me to my point.

Why on earth do we listen to performers that have not proven they can produce the result.

1. We attend lectures in which the lecturers are showing material they have never tried in front of a paying audience.
2. They have never performed in their life and talk about performance theory.
3. They perform material that would never fly in the real world. Never.
4. And then they have the nerve to get in front of a set-up audience and put out a DVD.

Meanwhile we the buying public praise these performers as if they are GODS. They must have the conversation in their own head that goes something like this I hope these magicians never see me perform in front of a lay audience. Well I just saw one and this performer SUCKED! Is their anything we can do about these hacks.
Some of you are thinking who am I to make these comments. A WORKING PRO!

Robert Green
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Postby Guest » 04/21/06 01:30 PM

Do you feel better now?
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Postby Guest » 04/21/06 01:42 PM

Call the MAGIC POLICE. Then when we are through with all of the magicians we don't like we can move on to the others that are bothering us. Soon we can weed out all the bad apples and live in a world where everybody thinks and behaves like us!!!
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Postby Guest » 04/21/06 02:16 PM

Why so bitter Robert? It sounds like you got everything you wanted. You made your client happy, you made the other guy look bad and you stole his client. Sounds like it was a good days work for you.

Your post is only presenting one side of the situation and we don't know who you're talking about. There aren't many trade show guys who have made videos. If you're talking about Tullock, well then that's a shame you feel that way because any of us who have ever cashed a check from a trade show performance have Eddie to thank.

I don't know anything about you, but as I've gotten older the one thing I've learned is that there is always going to be someone better looking, more aggressive and more talented right behind you ready to take over. Just remember, what goes around, comes around.
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Postby Guest » 04/21/06 03:45 PM

I'm sure this guy isn't referring to Eddie Tullock. Eddie has a very subtle way of gathering a crowd. If Eddie wanted to pull someone's crowd, it would be gone before his victim knew what happened.
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Postby Guest » 04/21/06 04:02 PM

Hmmm....I don't recall working any trade shows lately...
Steve V
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Postby John LeBlanc » 04/21/06 05:47 PM

I'm with Steve P. on this. Karma is one big, ugly female dog with an elephant's memory and Tony Soprano's conviction of evening a score.

John
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Postby Guest » 04/21/06 06:08 PM

Originally posted by Robert Green:
HATE ME but its called business.
....and thus we justify all forms of immoral behavior under the flag of business...capitalism....etc.

Pitiful - just pitiful.

sam
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Postby Guest » 04/21/06 06:40 PM

You can hate me for this but I don't care ... it is just so lame when a topic is broached without concrete examples and then emotionally loaded language is thrown around as if by a stupid troll.

If someone wants to discuss something, kindly state the topic and open the doors with some examples so others can offer their perspectives.

Just my stupid troll's perspective. ;)
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Postby Guest » 04/21/06 06:46 PM

This is really interesting. I have seen people suffer financially and physically for this kind of behavior.

For example, if the trade show venue is in a union state, and the other performer loses a long term client because of this behavior, the injured party can file a suit against him at union headquarters. This assumes that both performers are members of AGVA.

If the troll is not a member of AGVA and the victim is, AGVA will keep a file on him.
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Postby Guest » 04/21/06 06:49 PM

Thank for your comments:

Of course I would not reveal this performers name, UNLESS of course this person came online and made themselves known and wanted to be revealed.

1. Im far from being bitter.
2. You are correct karma can be very very ugly.

However the only thing I did wrong was MY JOB. This performers client approached me and asked for my contact information. Im sure some of us on this forum have had a bad experience with a company. Because of that bad experience you took your business to someone else. Thats what their client did, they found a different option. Thats called BUSINESS. So in some respects I stole the client. Perhaps! After thinking about it I do not think so. I think this is what happen. This performer sold the client on a particular result, and did not deliver the goods. Remember the roles could easily have been reversed. And then Im on the other end of the stick. My client loses, I lose, my family loses. Im sure if I posted the other side of the coin on this forum and mentioned this performers name, the same people would say well what did you expect you went up against one of the best in the business. Which brings me back to my original point.

Why on earth do we listen to performers that have not PROVEN they can produce results under fire in the real world.

I understand the comment I did everything in my power to make sure this person would never gather a crowd. Seems really harsh.

But after their arrogant comments about there success and how many magicians know their name I turned it into a game and at that tradeshow I won. Everything in my power was simply gathering my crowd once an hour 6 times each day. They had plenty of time to make it happen for their client. They didnt! Perhaps they had a bad day. When your being paid great money you better not have a bad day. The CLIENT paid for a particular result. Keyword CLIENT!

Lets not forget my original point.

Robert Green
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Postby Guest » 04/21/06 07:25 PM

Originally posted by Robert Green:
Which brings me back to my original point.

Why on earth do we listen to performers that have not PROVEN they can produce results under fire in the real world.
You are approaching this the wrong way. First of all, coming on to this board and stating someone "sucked" isn't going to get you a lot of support in starting the discussion you want to start.

Next, you say this person has a video out on Trade Show magic. There are only so many guys that have done that. Eddie Tullock, Dick Ryan, Mike Rogers & Don Alan. Obviously you didn't work with Mike or Don Alan, so we can only assume you are attacking either Tullock or Ryan. I say attack because these are the guys who have been at it the longest. Tullock created the genre and has been working trade shows longer than many of us have been alive.

There could be someone else out there who produced a video and I'm not aware of it, but without knowing more information, your discussion isn't going anywhere.

If you're not going to tell us more information about the performer of the product, at least tell us more about you. You're a working pro so you must have a website. Apparently, you're very good, so I can't imagine you have anything to hide.
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Postby Jim Maloney_dup1 » 04/21/06 07:39 PM

Originally posted by Steven Pellegrino:
Next, you say this person has a video out on Trade Show magic.
Careful, Steve. You seem to be assuming more than was actually said.

-Jim
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Postby Guest » 04/21/06 07:54 PM

Jim, you're right. Thanks
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Postby Pete Biro » 04/21/06 08:33 PM

This performer actually had the nerve to ask me to hold off on starting my presentation so they could gather a crowd.

What's wrong with that?

It would have been nice for you to let him do his set, then you do yours.

Why then, do your best to screw him?

When I worked trades, we (other magicians nearby) would alternate so no one was without a shot at building a tip.
Stay tooned.
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Postby Guest » 04/21/06 08:36 PM

To be more accurate historically, Karrell Fox actually did the first trade show magic. The client was Ford Motor Co.

However, Eddie Tullock was the first one to perform in the style that we consider the "standard."

This is not meant to detract from Eddie's worth as a performer or his value in the trade show magic field. All of us who have done trade shows owe him a lot.

This whole thread reminds me of the story about the priest who took off from church one Sunday, told the congregation he was ill, and went golfing. The angel Gabriel looked down from Heaven, saw him playing and asked God what he should do about it. God replied, "Give him a hole-in-one."

"Why?"

"Who can he tell?"

So, we have a troll, whom none of us knows, who comes on to this forum, signs up, and crows about an alleged "victory" over a nameless, but famous, trade show performer. Let the thread die.
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Postby Guest » 04/21/06 10:14 PM

I don't often work with other magicians because I usually carry the show alone. However, when I have it has always, and I mean ALWAYS, been with other professionals who have been courteous, cooperative, and mutually respectful.

A couple of years ago I was at the Ritz-Carlton in Dana Point to do a show with two other pros. One I'd known since he was a kid, the other by reputation only. The room was poorly arranged to the extent that the band had to agree to clear off the small "stage" that had been set up so we could work.

There wasn't the slightest hint of ego in us dealing with each other. It took, maybe, five minutes in a quick conference to decide the order of the show, who would do the intros, etc. Because of this professional approach, the show was a pleasure to do.

We worked together to deliver the goods to the client like we'd worked together for years. Between the three of us there was almost 100 years of experience.

Now, as to Robert Green's brag about overshadowing someone he clearly saw as an opponent - Robert, you have no way of knowing what the man had gone through before he got to the venue. Perhaps he had a brother die or was worried about his wife who'd been in an accident or maybe he was suffering from food poisoning. There could be a hundred reasons he was off his game that day.

I know that, in theory at least, pros are supposed to put their problems and feelings aside and deliver what the client is paying for, but we are all human and it is possible there are extenuating circumstances behind the less than stellar performance of the other magician.

I would make these observations to you, Robert: The idea that winning isn't enough, that you must crush the opposition may work well for someone like Donald Trump...but you're not Donald Trump. You're a trade show magician.

You are not a "star," like David Copperfield or Lance Burton. You are a guy who can be replaced with a phone call, possibly by someone who is younger, better looking, and willing to work for less.

You live and work in a small world. Metaphorically kicking this unnamed colleague in the crotch under the guise of "business" is, in my experience, not smart because you can never tell when he might be in the position to do you some good...or some bad.

If you're going to be in business (and stay in the business), it is best to have as many friends as you can saying nice things about you, as opposed to people saying you're a pushy, over-opinionated, overbearing [censored] who doesn't work well with others.
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Postby Guest » 04/21/06 11:08 PM

I forgot to say welcome to the board Robert! Love you trade show guys.
Steve V
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Postby Guest » 04/21/06 11:18 PM

I have something in common with Robert. I am a troll too and I also do trade shows.

Mind you I am not entirely sure that he is a troll but I certainly am. However I also do trade shows with great frequency.

I have something to say on this matter and I suggest that Dustin lets me say it. He can make me vanish in the usual way but I suggest he lets this post stand because it is based on experience.

There is quite a lot of truth in what Robert says but there is also a lot of truth in what David Alexander says. I personally take the middle ground.

I have vast experience as a svengali pitchman over 40 years of working. I know more than anyone else here about drawing a crowd here and holding it. Not bragging-just fact.I am quite sure that I have drawn and held more crowds than anyone else on this forum. In recent years I have used this skill on many occasions at trade shows. I am therefore qualified to yap about it with great authority. Besides I am [censored] and anything I say should be taken as gospel.

Here is my take on the matter. Robert is correct when he says that the client comes first. He is also correct when he says that his business comes first providing he doesn't screw up his business in the long run with too ruthless tactics.

As a pitchman working consumer shows it would be considered utterly ridiculous for one pitchman to be asking another pitchman to wait until he got started. He would be laughed right out of the joint. It just ain't gonna happen. If you stop working you stop making money.

The same thing goes for a trade show magician. If you stop work then you stop making money for the company. Mind you doing one show an hour is bloody stupid since you are not working anyway by doing that. It seems to be the fashion nowadays to do this but it really is a pathetic way of working. You need to work CONTINUOUSLY but of course keeping an eye out on booth activity to make sure you don't interfere with the salesmen doing their jobs.

It is not your job to look after the other magician and if the other company approaches you then of course you have to take the job. You ARE in business.But at least be nice about it. Or perhaps sneaky would be a better word. Be nice to the guy's face at least. If you need to screw him then do it so he doesn't know. Then at least you will still have good relations with him.

At one time I was quite ruthless and probably worse than Robert is. I would have pulled every dirty trick in the book to put the other person out of business.

However as I have gotten older I have mellowed. There is indeed wisdom in what David Alexander says in that it is good to keep friends in the business and not upset your colleagues too much. They may be able to do you good down the road. And working in a warlike ruthless manner is stressful.

Of course David cites an example of performers working for the same employer. When you are working in competition with someone the situation is a little different.

Robert is right but he isn't. I am not sure I would have allowed the other performer to get to work either but I would have been tactful about it. On the other hand if the other guy was only doing the usual thing of a 10 minute show once an hour I might have let him do it for the sake of harmony. That is because once he had disappeared I would still be working.

I bet I know who Robert is referring to. If it is who I think it is it might not be the performer's ability that was the problem. I do happen to know that various employers don't like working with the man and that might have had something to do with it. And besides Robert might have been cheaper. Much cheaper.

On the other hand I might be wrong. It has also occured to me that Robert is (unlike me) too scared to reveal his own real name so made up one. As a person who is expert in making up names to go on magic sites I have another possible hunch. If you are going to make up a name then it must be tempting to use the person's name that you are complaining about. It may be (I admit that I am not sure) that Robert is using the name of the magician that he confronted. There is more than one tradeshow magician called Green. Just a hunch that is all.

I sense some tension was present with this performer. It is not professional when representing a client to have confrontations or rivalry with another magician at least visibly. If you have to screw the guy then at least smile sweetly while you do it.

On the other hand it may not be necessary to screw the guy and in this specific instance I suspect it wasn't.

I sense Robert is just like I used to be. A nasty bastard. I think that it is best not to be unless it is absolutely unavoidable. You should remember the other guy may be of help to you.

I barely speak to other magicians working the same show. I am too busy working while they are wandering about the show trying to look important.

Incidentally I am sure it wasn't Eddie Tullock that Robert was referring to. Eddie retired years ago.

I think Robert would be well advised to work nicely. He might come across some bastard just like him one day who knows how to do unto others before they do unto him.

And it is very easy to do unto someone who only does one show an hour.

Even if they are not brave enough to post their real name.
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Postby John LeBlanc » 04/22/06 09:22 AM

Mark, I see this as really about professionalism and common courtesy (and, like common decency and common sense, not so common anymore.) Even you would admit that wearing the white hat pays off in the long run far more than the description that started this thread.

But the attitude there was not "in the long run" thinking; it is "short run" thinking. The sort of thinking that causes a false sense of accomplishment that leads to the sort of boasting and rationalization we see above.

Far more often than not, that sort of behavior doesn't build a sustainable career or, more importantly, a happy life.

I don't doubt the popular notion that business is a cut-throat, dog-eat-dog world still is accurate in some cases, it just isn't anywhere evident in the sort of corporate business in which I find myself. (Or intend to find myself.) If one of my clients would ever chose to approach another performer, I'd say God bless them both; they deserve each other. If he jumps ship once, he'll do it again. I'm into building lasting relationships, not constantly having the doctor laser off one company's tattoo to make room for another.

But my issue is not so much that a client would walk across the aisle -- it happens from time to time. Providing, of course, that this story isn't fiction from top to bottom, this may be the first time the client used the performer so there may not be a sufficient relationship built up to begin with. It may well be this is the first time the client ever used a magician at all and has no earthly idea what a professional really is. There's a reason it's called "an informed decision."

My bigger issue is the glee with which Mr. No Name from the Chicago area gloats about winning a "battle" that was never a battle to begin with, and with judging his elders from a position of not enough experience.

One more warning about Lady Karma: she has an insatiable appetite for asses.

John
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Postby Guest » 04/22/06 09:31 AM

I've had a lot more experience at trade show work than many realize. The biggest problem that I have had is that when I perform, the aisles get clogged up, and the other exhibitors at the trade shows complain about it.

You can overfill a booth. And if you do, you can be blacklisted. The first time that I appeared at the SWEE, my show won three awards for our sponsor. We had a booth that faced the center of the Astrohall, so space was not a problem, and we had as many as 200 people watching our presentation each time it went off.

The next year, our sponsor was not so fortunate, and he got a booth 1 aisle back from the center. The client rearranged the booth, which ticked the ad agency off, but it gave us more room for people to watch. This is when the aisles got clogged up. We won a bunch of awards again, but the SWEE didn't want "the carnival atmosphere"
our show generated.

Sometimes getting a big crowd isn't the answer. You have to go with the flow.
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Postby Guest » 04/22/06 11:22 AM

"Robert Green" wants us to think he is aggressive, but I would observe that he has, as yet, to encounter the real naked aggressiveness of some businessmen.

A friend of mine worked for just such an individual some years back. He was paid a daily fee and although he contract specified his duties and time in the booth, the president of the company thought he owned my friend. After a day in the booth it was not uncommon for my friend to to accompany the sales force and potential clients to dinner. After my friend managed to crawl into bed, it was as likely he would receive a call from the president that a few people were in the company suite and could he "come up and do a few tricks."

Unfortunately, my friend had a family to support and was, more or less trapped, since his children liked to eat with some regularity.

Even though the company's president lauded my friend, saying that he was one of the main reasons the company did so well at trade shows, when he asked for a bit more money he was dumped without so much as a thank-you.
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Postby Guest » 04/22/06 12:01 PM

Doubtful that it was Eddie Tullock. He's now 86 or 87, and when I met with him quite sometime ago in Wickenburg, he was talking of retiring. Hands too dry, not as limber.
In any event, he knew how to draw crowds and hold their attention...after all, he is the KING of trade show magicians!
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Postby Guest » 04/22/06 12:37 PM

I have extremely limited esperience at trade shows. And unlike [censored] I don't claim to be the world's greatest authority on everything
I worked about a dozen shows. And it was a tough job. Much too much standing on your feet for me
However for what it's worth. Exhibitors and performers are competing. There's a limited number of each And the exhibitors compete for the same customers. THAT'S THE REASON THEY HIRE ENTERTAINERS. Not to provide entertainment and diversion but to , as carnies say draw a tip (crowd) Any emplyess not doing the best for his or her employees to do that is unprofessional That doesn't mean I need to be rude to fellow performers. But I believe in the golden rule. THe person with the gold makes the rules. If the employer says perform from 1-1:15 That's when I perform. Requests from fellow performers not with standing. If after a performance or show I'm approached by competitiors about work My first loyalty is to my current employer.
Now what the thread starter says abut perople putting out videos , when they have very little real world experience. Is basically true BUT, this may just be the market. I recall attending a lecture by Derek Dingle (G-d rest his soul) and him saying, I put in extra complex moves that aren't necessary, because magicians like them and I can do them. He knew his market
IMO some of the most succesfull real world performers are unknown to the magic market. And that market would rather buy from names they know than those actually experienced
from
Ford
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Postby Guest » 04/22/06 02:06 PM

Some here have implied that Im not who I say I am. The quickest way to prove that I am who I say I am would be to give out my contact / website info. Since Im NOT going to do that I say believe what you want. I am a very real person named
Robert Green and Im VERY good at what I do. (Magic Professionally)

So why wouldnt I want my information out there. Simple! I do not work for magicians. No conventions, lectures, books, DVDs etc. Thats not my market. Second my website has all of my promo information videos etc. I have a numerous signature pieces I would like to keep to myself for as long as possible. Why help my competition with their marketing. With a little work you could easily find my site. But since I do not use the search engines it makes it a little more difficult.

So your thinking how do my clients find me. Its not the web.

Mr. Alexander your friend was dumped not because he asked for money but because he was unable to prove his true value to his client. We can all ask for more money but why are you worth more money. Trust me if your friends client was making a real PROFIT by having the magician in there booth he wouldnt have let him go so easily.

Robert Green
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Postby Guest » 04/22/06 04:10 PM

Shortly after my last post I received a phone call from the tradeshow performer in question. I was a little surprised until I remembered I handed him my card as I introduced myself. All I can say is we had an interesting conversation concerning my post. Seems he pays attention to the forum. Of course he had issue with some of my comments concerning his ability as a Tradeshow Magician. I asked him why the attitude. He said he was not being rude. We cant agree on everything. Of course he had some questions about how long I have been at tradeshows. 19 years I told him, and even though I live here in the states about 50% of the tradeshows I perform at are overseas.

I flat out told him I expected more from him as a tradeshow performer / presenter.
He said - its a lot easier when youre the only game in town.
I said what do you think your fans would think based on what I saw over the course of the 3 day tradeshow.
He said if they have nothing to compare it to I would be great.
At least he is honest

He asked why did I feel the need to even talk about the situation. I mentioned myself and friends have experienced some serious attitude from some of the more popular and in some cases less popular magicians concerning a variety of topics in this art. And I said frankly I get somewhat annoyed when I here these people spewing there knowledge in a lecture and then you find out they do not regularly perform for real people. Its dishonest. If you have an idea just say its exactly that An Idea. Dont talk about all of the venues you have performed when you know its a lie.
He agreed! Interesting

We shared some ideas on the business side of tradeshows and the conversation turned civil.

I told him where I thought he could improve.
He shared some ideas on creating scripts.
He asked if I would ever publish / lecture etc. I said perhaps. When its not my business.


Robert Green
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Postby Richard Kaufman » 04/22/06 04:21 PM

Well Robert Green, since none of us know who you are, and you have turned your back on the magical community, why would you come on the Forum and start bitching?
Smells fishy to me.
For one thing, you're a hypocrite.
For another, you've got an ego the size of a large mountain.
Finally, I don't think any of us are deeply interested in your problems.
So go back to all of the work you have that keeps you so busy. You obviously haven't missed us before, and we won't miss you, either.
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Postby Guest » 04/22/06 05:08 PM

Mr. Kaufman

Im sorry you feel that way Mr. Kaufman I truly respect what you have contributed to the art. By the way - two routines in the book you published The Collected Almanac have been apart of my repertoire for many many years. One of these routines is so perfect for tradeshows it should be outlawed. Its that good! I would like to thank you for indirectly exposing me to these absolutely incredible pieces of magic. I always planned on meeting you at a convention and thanking you in person and showing you the tradeshow piece and how I adopted it for that environment.

Im not sure I deserved your comments. I stated facts without exposing a CELEBRITY performer in our industry. I understand I was harsh, but still respectful.

I respect your work so much I will take your advice.

Thank you Mr. Kaufman for your incredible contributions to this amazing art.

Robert Green
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Postby Guest » 04/22/06 05:41 PM

Bobby,

Here's the problem I have with your fantasy scenario: I believe in evidence and you've provided absolutely none.

When I try to find some, I'm amazed to see that, apparently, you have no presence as a magician/trade show performer on the Internet. Given your claim that you've been at this for 19 years, this seems, "odd." It does smack of "[censored]" Bob...a big steaming pile.

Now I can understand you not wanting a lot of magicians visiting your website, what with all your secret stuff there, the "signature pieces" you want to protect, but what bothers me about your claims is that none of your clients seem to be talking about you either.

For example, if I Google "Harrison J. Carroll," to use one tradeshow magician's name, and gosh, he's all over the place. True, a lot of the listings are for a book he's written, but a bunch are about him working this tradeshow or that. Although I've never met him, the evidence suggests that he's a real guy with a real career.

Hey, let's try "Bill Herz," easily one of the most successful corporate guys working today. I've never met him, but I know people who know him, so I'm pretty sure he's real.

You've been working a few years less than Bill has, but what do we find? Well, there are over 20,000 hits for Bill on Google. A lot of them....a WHOLE lot of them, are agencies who represent Bill. Everyone seems to want to represent Bill. I can't seem to find any that represent you.

That must have saved you A LOT in commissions over that 19 years you've been working all those trade shows.

Let me try "Gil Eagles," another fantastically successful speaker/corporate guy. Well, Gil has been at this a LONG time...he's slowing down, but there are almost 1,000 hits for him.

Where are you in all this?

Are you SO exclusive that no one, including agents, newspaper reporters, companies who endlessly talk about their trade show activities, Richard Kaufmam and the members of the Genii Forum fail to know who you are? You would think in 19 years of working tradeshows, someone on the net, some fellow magician, somebody would have said something about you, but, apparently I can't find the references.

Then there's your dismissive attitude towards the experience of my friend. Without knowing anything about the situation, how the company was bought out by some of the officers who decided they could work off the momentum my friend helped generate, you say that had he proven his value to the company, he wouldn't have lost his job.

That suggests to me that you're really some smart ass kid who is simply playing a game, pretending to be something you'd like to be, but aren't. The story of the guy you aced out of a job calling you and "learning" from you is simply unbelievable.

Of course, upon the presentation of evidence, I'm happy to change my mind, but, so far, you haven't presented anything that makes you even mildly believeable.
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Postby Guest » 04/22/06 06:29 PM

I agree this is some high school kid getting his rocks off via responses from quality magicians. His flaming initial post followed by polite responses are the tip-off. Jason Alford screened out these flamers on the "Second Deal" by charging admission and requiring references. I suggest the thread be closed and/or he be ignored.
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Postby Guest » 04/22/06 06:56 PM

I don't think Fox was first... My research goes back to (Billiard Ball) Bill Baird. He worked throughout the Mid-West representing an auto parts company,(similar to Mo-par today).
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Postby Guest » 04/22/06 06:57 PM

For what it is worth, he is not some kid. Four or so years ago he asked me some questions via email and I responded. I checked out his website at that time. You may not agree with either his opinion or approach, but I believe he is genuine.
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Postby Guest » 04/22/06 09:13 PM

OK, David. Give me a link to his website and when I've seen the evidence, I'm open to changing my mind....but not until then.
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Postby Guest » 04/22/06 09:29 PM

David. He's not that fellow you were telling me about who goes into hotels demanding in a loud voice that he wants pornographic movies in his room is he?

I must say it sounds a bit like him.

Oh never mind. I wouldn't want to embarrass you by revealing what you have been gossiping to me about. It is well known that I am not the sort to stir up trouble.

I am not sure what my opinion is about Robert. And people don't know the full facts about the situation. If we actually knew for sure who the two antagonists were we would have a much clearer picture of the situation and perhaps form different opinions about it.

It would also be qute interesting to know the content of the initial conversation which started things off on a bad foot in the first place.I don't think we know the full context of all this amusement.

I do agree with John Le Blanc that saintliness is next to Godliness and what he says does make sense. The trouble is that I tend to follow Satan rather than God which messes up my good intentions from time to time.

In practice I hardly speak to other trade show magicians. I won't even make myself known to them at shows. I mind my own business and let them mind theirs. If they make themselves known to me at my booth they might get a slight nod but not much else in the way of conversation. There are several advantages in this policy which I won't go into.

I certainly agree with Bill Palmer that there are times you DON'T want massive crowds. You can get screams and complaints from other exhibitors and they will go screaming and moaning into the show management offices. As I would do if a rival magician started to affect me with bigger crowds.I would be the first to complain about the "carnival atmosphere" Pitchmen have a survival instinct. I know several of them who make rival microphones disappear or go mysteriously out of service.

Not me of course. I am a most saintly individual.I must say that John Le Blanc has encouraged me to continue in this saintly manner in his post despite awful temptations that abound from time to time.

Bill is right about the crowds getting too big. I prefer to draw moderate crowds rather than massive ones. But I will work continously so I get just as many people at the end of the day. I think for me it works out better in the long run.

And for the client too. They are always my first priority.
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Postby Guest » 04/22/06 09:39 PM

Oh my God! I have just realised who it may well be! John Le Blanc just gave me a clue when he said Chicago.

If it is who I think it is he ain't no trade show magician. I could be wrong but if I am correct then he had the "edge" on us for a while.
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Postby Guest » 04/22/06 10:28 PM

Goodness, if that is the case then he is running out of boards to be disliked if not banned from.
Steve V
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Postby Guest » 04/22/06 10:42 PM

And I said frankly I get somewhat annoyed when I here these people spewing there knowledge in a lecture and then you find out they do not regularly perform for real people.
The thing that puzzles me is the implication that the visitors at a trade show are somehow more real people than the folks you might entertain Friday night after work at a bar, or the kids in your high school lunch room

In my experience (which is as an attendee, not a performer) people attending trade shows, are looking for ANYTHING that might relieve the boredom of their tedious business trip. This is why you see video game contests, booth bimbos, and all manner of other distractions from the fact that trade show attendance is WORK.

If you want to impress me with your ability to draw a crowd, do what my friend Tom Frank does (or Gazzo, or Cellini). Stand on a street corner, where no one has paid a fee to see you, where the audience can walk away, or not, and where they are on their way to do something they WANT to do

Stop THEM.
Entertain THEM.
Notice that they leave you large sums of money.

Those, my friend, are REAL real people.
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Postby Pete Biro » 04/22/06 11:40 PM

His thread on this subject seems to have vanished over at the CAFE... :whack:
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Postby Guest » 04/23/06 04:32 AM

It is indeed true that buskers are the real experts in drawing a crowd and entertaining them. And of course the ultimate test of their worth is readily found out by how much money they can extract. If they get the money they are good. If they don't they aren't.

However I think that the average busker would have to clean their act up a bit before working trade shows.They do have the knack of drawing the crowd and entertaining them but they would have to make their performance more palatable for the corporate crowd.Some buskers (not all, perhaps) would be just a tad too rough and ready to work trade shows. And of course they would have to learn to tie the sales message into the product.

Actually the person who would have more chance of success is a pitchman who demonstrates vegetable slicers, flower holders etc;. They wouldn't even have to be a magician. They could learn 5 tricks only and rival any hot shot trade show magician. That is because they already know how to work exhibitions, are familiar with the atmosphere, know how to draw a crowd and most importantly know how to SELL to one.

In fact once they have learned the magic the work is EASIER than being a pitchman. That is because they don't have to deal with complaints about the product and the selling is implied rather than specific. And the crowds that inhabit trade shows are far easier to control than the crowds at consumer shows. And far nicer people. And as Bill Duncan says WANT to watch the demonstration whereas at a a consumer show this is not necessarily the case.

As for "Robert Green" I am not 100% sure that he is the chap who has been irritating all and sundry on the Danny Hustle forum and the Scoundrel Site but it does sound a bit like him although I will admit that the posts on here seem to be a trifle more literate.

There is something that isn't quite ringing right with this story although I think there may well be an inkling of truth in the saga somewhere.For example the initial conflict between the two magicians could well have happened.

If Robert doesn't tell us who he is then I am afraid his credibility is suspect. It would be nice to know who is the other guy too.

Anyway it seems that he is best of pals now with his former antagonist so perhaps everything is now hunky dory.

So John Le Blanc is correct in his attitude of advocating love and saintliness. We must both try it on Ford. I shall let John experiment first to show me how it is done.
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Postby Pete Biro » 04/23/06 07:29 AM

Links to Danny Hustle?
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