Stevens Magic Emporium

Discuss the latest news and rumors in the magic world.

Postby Geno Munari » 07/18/02 10:54 PM

Check this out.

http://stevensmagic.com/currentcatalog/topsyturvy.asp

This is the absolute biggest unethical breech I have ever seen.

I'll explain.

I purchased the rights to the Peter Pit concept of the Topsy Turvy Chairs (Pit Sit etc.). The multiplying chairs or the Martinka Chairs have been around a long time and this was an entirely different effect and anyone that wants to sell them has a perfect right to do so. I have no problem with this.

Peter Pit was the originator of the concept of "topsy turvy" with chairs.

There are many who know this truth.

Joe has destroyed what Peter Pit invented.
Whether Joe manufactureded it or not, it makes no difference since he knows the entire history of the Peter Pit Routine. This is without argument an unethical act by both parties. By that I mean Voit, (sic) the manufacturer and the seller. And please understand, Joe knows all the details.

Personally I think that when you die you can only leave one thing on this earth for your family and friends and that is your good name.

Geno Munari
Geno Munari
 
Posts: 624
Joined: 01/30/08 01:00 PM
Location: Las Vegas/Del Mar, CA

Postby Terry » 07/19/02 05:58 AM

Geno,

If there really has been a breach of ethics on Steven's part, why complain to us on Genii and at alt.magic? Why don't you pursue it through the MDA or the courts?

My experiences with Steven's Magic is an extremely friendly staff, accurate ad descriptions, honest & fair dealings.
Terry
 
Posts: 1243
Joined: 01/18/08 01:00 PM
Location: Kentucky

Postby Guest » 07/19/02 07:07 AM

I too have to agree with Terry. I have known Joe Stevens and his family (inlcuding his staff which he treats as extended family and in fact some of them are) for many years and not one of them has ever acted in anything but the utmost professional manner possible. They deal with problems immediately and I know for a fact that Joe will not carry a rip off item. In fact, when Peter Pit first had his problem over his routine being sold a few years ago, Joe was one of the first to state that he would not carry it. I have no doubt that while Geno feels that he has been wronged that it would be best to hear what Joe actually has to say on the matter first rather than slandering him and his family publicly (something that is much harder to retract later).

In fact I talked with Mark Stevens yesterday morning and I know that both he and his father are looking into the matter as I type this.

PSIncerely Yours,
Paul Alberstat
http://www.mindguy.com
Guest
 

Postby Pete Biro » 07/19/02 08:11 AM

I am flying to Las Vegas this afternoon and will be seeing Joe Stevens. Will bring up the subject and see what I can find out.
Stay tooned.
User avatar
Pete Biro
 
Posts: 7124
Joined: 01/17/08 01:00 PM
Location: Hollyweird

Postby Geno Munari » 07/19/02 12:09 PM

A few years ago Hank Lee carried the chairs with Peter's Routine. Peter was outraged to say the least. However the matter was settled and Hank Lee wrote a letter of apology to Peter Pit and quit selling the routine. The letter was published in Magic Magazine in an ad. I hold my hat off to Hank for doing this.
Geno Munari
 
Posts: 624
Joined: 01/30/08 01:00 PM
Location: Las Vegas/Del Mar, CA

Postby Pete Biro » 07/21/02 04:16 PM

The Martinka Chairs story got my attention. Both Geno, Joe and Peter Pit are very good friends of mine.

I spoke with Billy McComb, at the Castle, and Jay Marshall, in Las Vegas, as well as Hugo (who was with Peter in the final days).

It seems that Peter did not create the Topsy Turvy routine. It was from another Dutch Magician named Flip Hallema. Flip worked out the idea and routine based on the Topsy Turvy bottles. Both McComb and Jay related this information.

Peter had the chairs and Flip told him about the routine and that he should do it... which he did.

Peter then devised his own patter and presentation.

According to Hugo, Geno, who had a set of chairs did the routine, which upset Peter. Later on, Geno contacted Peter, knowing he was upset and in need of funds (his health was failing) offered a substantial amount of money to Peter for the rights to use Peter's routine.

I do not know what "routine" Harold Voit (from Germany) supplies with the chairs he sells to dealers, but it (from the ad photos) appears to be a "topsy turvey" effect.

I do know that Joe is going to contact Geno, and any more than that I can't comment, as I don't know what he plans to say or do.

I am also trying to search it back farther to see if anyone else in Europe (or anywhere else) had also thought of the topsy turvy effect.
Stay tooned.
User avatar
Pete Biro
 
Posts: 7124
Joined: 01/17/08 01:00 PM
Location: Hollyweird

Postby Geno Munari » 07/21/02 09:24 PM

B.S.

And you know better.
Geno Munari
 
Posts: 624
Joined: 01/30/08 01:00 PM
Location: Las Vegas/Del Mar, CA

Postby Geno Munari » 07/21/02 09:36 PM

You guys are sociopaths....

Paul Alberstat

In fact, when Peter Pit first had his problem over his routine being sold a few years ago, Joe was one of the first to state that he would not carry it.
Go figure Biro
Geno Munari
 
Posts: 624
Joined: 01/30/08 01:00 PM
Location: Las Vegas/Del Mar, CA

Postby Pete Biro » 07/22/02 11:05 AM

C'mon Geno. You paid Peter for the rights for the routine. I commend you for that.

However, it seems the "effect" was Flip's and both McComb and Marshall, independently, stated this. Two knowledgable gentlemen with no axes to grind.

I would like to see just what the instructions from Voit say about the routine.

No need to resort to name calling here.
Stay tooned.
User avatar
Pete Biro
 
Posts: 7124
Joined: 01/17/08 01:00 PM
Location: Hollyweird

Postby Geno Munari » 07/22/02 05:29 PM

You are right. No need to call names but you are just uniformed and go by the rule that "the ends justify the means".

This is the best of rankness I have ever seen. Pathetic.
Geno Munari
 
Posts: 624
Joined: 01/30/08 01:00 PM
Location: Las Vegas/Del Mar, CA

Postby Pete Biro » 07/22/02 11:22 PM

Geno... Joe has been driving from Colorado back to Wichita. Let us know when he responds and what he says. OK?

I am not after anything but a true record and history of the effect. I really believe Jay and Billy, when they say Flip devised the topsy turvy concept.

I know you paid Peter handsomely and as I said, "I commend you."

However, if the routine was NOT Peter's, then he didn't really have the selling rights. However, knowing his condition at the time, your payment was a kind and wonderful gesture.

Later, pb :cool:
Stay tooned.
User avatar
Pete Biro
 
Posts: 7124
Joined: 01/17/08 01:00 PM
Location: Hollyweird

Postby Geno Munari » 07/23/02 02:42 AM

Stevens' defense is inconsistent to the facts.
Geno Munari
 
Posts: 624
Joined: 01/30/08 01:00 PM
Location: Las Vegas/Del Mar, CA

Postby Terry » 07/23/02 05:01 AM

To settle this, would it be possible to contact Flip and determine if he indeed did create the chair effect? If he did, then Geno only paid for Peter's routine and not the actual physical chair effect. If the trick belongs to Flip, only HE has the right to determine who can and can't sell it.

It appears from Pete's research and posts that Geno overpaid for a concept and Geno has resorted to a defensive mode to cover for it.

Let's go to the root of the trick to determine final ownership and end this arguing.
Terry
 
Posts: 1243
Joined: 01/18/08 01:00 PM
Location: Kentucky

Postby Guest » 07/23/02 05:23 AM

Just talked to Flip on the phone. Flip used to do a routine with a set of 3 chairs. This was basically a multiplication routine. Flip has NEVER performed or published a topsy turvy routine.

In the late 70's Flip visited with Peter, who had a set of chairs. Peter had not made any routine yet. Flip suggested to him the idea of using the chairs for a topsy turvy routine. From that suggestion Peter created his routine with the chairs, with all the lines, little bits of business etc.

So I think one can safely say that the topsy turvy routine belonged to Peter Pit, having been created by him after a suggestion from Flip.

I know Peter sold performing rights to Geno Munari. All other rights went to the sole heir of Peter, his sister Annie. Anyone wanting to sell Peter's routine should contact his sister and strike a deal with her.

Contrary to what one might expect, the topsy turvy chairs is NOT an old idea.
I find it a bit surprising that this whole deal is coming up again, since a few years ago, all these details were sorted out already quite extensively.

Since Harold Voit is aware of the importance of checking proprietary rights before putting something on the market, I assume he has acquired the right to sell Peter's routine from Peter's sister.

Tommy Wonder.
Guest
 

Postby Pete Biro » 07/23/02 12:37 PM

Tommy: Thanks for getting in touch with Flip and adding important information regarding this situation.

Is there a contact for Harold Voit? Or could you possibly reach Peter's sister?

Kindest regards, etc., pb
Stay tooned.
User avatar
Pete Biro
 
Posts: 7124
Joined: 01/17/08 01:00 PM
Location: Hollyweird

Postby TomTrix » 07/23/02 01:37 PM

Hello Pete !

Contact info on Harold Voit. Visit the website for zauberzentrale Mnich at www.zzm.de

Regards
Tom Trix
TomTrix
 
Posts: 25
Joined: 05/11/08 03:50 AM
Location: Copenhagen, Denmark

Postby Pete Biro » 07/23/02 10:02 PM

Tom... Nichts Ferstain (sp)... can't read German.

HOWEVER... a Google Search found four more dealers selling the "Upside Down" (Martinka Chairs).

Tilford $1200
Quality Magic $750
Tricks 4-U 1600 Euros
Mephisto Huis 1200 Euros

All feature the "topsy turvy" routine.

:confused:
Stay tooned.
User avatar
Pete Biro
 
Posts: 7124
Joined: 01/17/08 01:00 PM
Location: Hollyweird

Postby Dick Koornwinder » 07/24/02 08:15 AM

I also checked the website of Zauberzentrale Mnchen and was a little bit surprised, that's an understatement, by what Mr. Voit is telling us about the Martinka chairs:
More than once versions of this effect appeared in front of us, either
imported from the USA or fiddled together in Germany, and always it gave
dissatisfaction. Either the construction was amateurish and therefore gave
away the secret, or it was a version stolen from Peter Pit who became world
famous with it. Peter was more than happy with this ZZM-version, (which is
licensed in the USA), because such a well made and easy going construction
he had not envisioned in his wildest dreams.
The above is a translation. Here you can find the original text:
http://shop.zauberzentrale.de/cgi-bin/Z ... iew/B30131

A couple of months before he died I have met Peter Pit in the Netherlands. He visited his family and also attended a one-day convention. I had the pleasure to have dinner with Tommy Wonder and Peter and believe me as three Dutch guys are sitting together there is a lot of gossip (and rumors). We discussed the long thread about the Martinka chairs on another forum and were happy it was looking if everything was settled now. If Peter had seen the ZZM-version of the chairs he would have shared that experience with us. So that's the reason I'm flabbergasted about what Mr. Voit is stating. I cannot find the timeslot in which Peter has had a chance to see the ZZM-version. At that time Peter didn't know how ill he really was and was full of plans and we were looking forward to meet again at the WMS in Vegas a few months later.
Further I'm wondering why Mr. Voit waited so long before he was actually selling the chairs. According his text the chairs were well made and working smoothly when Peter saw them. For sure not a prototype!
Further I don't know what the fact four more dealers are selling the chairs with Pit's routine is proofing.

Dick Koornwinder
Dick Koornwinder
 
Posts: 121
Joined: 01/17/08 01:00 PM
Location: Amsterdam, The Netherlands

Postby Geno Munari » 07/24/02 02:23 PM

I just received a very sincere letter from Joe Stevens and I would like to post it as requested by Pete Biro.
Geno... Joe has been driving from Colorado back to Wichita. Let us know when he responds and what he says. OK?

Pete Biro

If Joe would give permission I will do so. It is commendable and would be of interest to the Genii Forum.
Geno Munari
 
Posts: 624
Joined: 01/30/08 01:00 PM
Location: Las Vegas/Del Mar, CA

Postby Hanno » 07/24/02 09:18 PM

Just a note to the comment of dick koornwinder.
Your translation from the harold voit Zauberzentrale Munich is wrong and leeds to a big misunerstanding:
You wrote: Peter was more than happy with this ZZM-version
But in a correct translation on the website of Mr. harold voit:
Peter would be more then happy...........
Thats a big difference!
I also whant to say that mr. harold voit is one of the most respectable and serious dealers here in Europe, who cares a lot about copyrights.
Maby you should contact him directly!

Hanno Rhomberg

Hanno Rhomberg
Hanno
 
Posts: 36
Joined: 03/24/08 06:46 PM

Postby Guest » 07/25/02 05:54 AM

Hanno Rhombergs comment does make a big difference. "Would be more than happy" or "was more than happy" changes the picture a lot. I also thought it meant "was more than happy".

Anyway, this now suggests that Peter did NOT see the chairs from ZZM. (which seemed impossible to me as well). This makes the issue more simple. Thanks Hanno for the clear up.

The text on the web site, and correct me if that is wrong, does suggest that the version being sold is with permission. After all, it is mentioned that many version were no good and gave dissatisfaction, either through bad construction or that they were stolen versions. This implicates this version is not stolen, doesn't it?

This means that Mr.Voit must have acquired the right to sell Peter's routine from Peter's sister.

Peter's sister will be the perfect person to end this controversy. When the vacation period is over we'll know.

But I have little doubt, because I too know EXACTLY how much Mr.Voit cares about propriatary rights.

Tommy Wonder.
Guest
 

Postby Geno Munari » 07/25/02 07:23 AM

This is getting interesting.....

This means that if the chairs had been sold by Peter's sister to Voit then he would have known that I was initially bought the rights from Peter.

When Peter and I made the deal he explicitly agreed not to sell to anyone else and that he and I were the only people to do the routines. This was are agreement otherwise I would not have paid him the amount that I did. There was never any talk except exclusivity.

Also, I made a seperate arrangment with Annie, Peter's sister, to fund Peter's Foundation which will be done as soon as she provides the necessary U.S. documentation that is suitable to the Internal Revenue Service.

Geno Munari
Geno Munari
 
Posts: 624
Joined: 01/30/08 01:00 PM
Location: Las Vegas/Del Mar, CA

Postby Guest » 07/25/02 12:21 PM

This is indeed getting very interesting!

Just had contact with Guido Klaassen, the nephew of Peter Pit. He is also a magician, and told me he handles the legal rights of Peter's routine by appointment of the sister of Peter. (because she has little or no knowledge of magic).

He told me that so far NO ONE has contacted him to inquire, let alone acquire the right to sell Peter's routine with the Martinka chairs. He told me he has made no deal with any manufacturer or dealer concerning this.

So........it is all pretty obvious whats going on here.
Yuk.

Tommy Wonder.
Guest
 

Postby Pete Biro » 07/25/02 12:33 PM

Actually, there is no reason a dealer cannot sell chairs (for the original effect) but it is Peter's routine and patter that are not up for grabs.

Should one get the chairs and develop a routine of their own, that, I would assume, would be OK.
Stay tooned.
User avatar
Pete Biro
 
Posts: 7124
Joined: 01/17/08 01:00 PM
Location: Hollyweird

Postby Geno Munari » 07/25/02 12:55 PM

To answer Terry Terrell who askes..
If there really has been a breach of ethics on Steven's part, why complain to us on Genii and at alt.magic? Why don't you pursue it through the MDA or the courts?
Effectively there is no recourse in either of these ways you have suggested, however the court of public information has brought out the truth in the entire matter. As you can read in the posts, the people and issues close to the arrangement have been forthright.

Voit's arrangements are still areas of concerns.
Geno Munari
 
Posts: 624
Joined: 01/30/08 01:00 PM
Location: Las Vegas/Del Mar, CA

Postby Guest » 07/25/02 01:10 PM

Sure Pete, anyone can sell a nest of chairs. No one has problems with that. It is Peter's routine which is not public domain.

From what Guido tells me, no one has acquired the rights to Peter's routine, except Geno ( who bought it from Peter himself).

In a way that means the case is closed. It is all pretty obvious.
Guest
 

Postby Richard Kaufman » 07/25/02 01:36 PM

Geno,
I guess it's time you contact Harold Voit and see what he has to say. I would also suggest that you print out the messages from Tommy, since he has spoken with Peter's nephew, and forward those to Joe.
I think the forum is a remarkable thing ... thank you to all who are contributing to the discussion.
Subscribe today to Genii Magazine
User avatar
Richard Kaufman
 
Posts: 20544
Joined: 07/18/01 12:00 PM
Location: Washington DC

Postby Pete Biro » 07/25/02 09:21 PM

Chief Richard... yes a forum is a good thing. Through this thread we have discovered much, thanks to the tenacious work by a few members.

The important point is that magic is a global activity and this proves it with messages going back and forth with no regard to boundaries.

I would love to be able to afford a set of the chairs and try to come up with my own routine. I think the prop is awesome.

FYI, Stevens is going to drop he Peter Pit routine supplied with the props and has obtained the rights from Gary Darwin, who has a completely different routine with them.
Stay tooned.
User avatar
Pete Biro
 
Posts: 7124
Joined: 01/17/08 01:00 PM
Location: Hollyweird

Postby Geno Munari » 07/25/02 11:00 PM

You mean Gary Meador. He goes by Darwin. Which is another story.

As a matter of fact it is probably the Passe-Passe routine that I performed when I realized that the Chair Routine was Peter Pit's. This was in about 1991. You and Joe saw me perform this at the San Remo. Remember?

However beware, he sells photo copies of the Harbin Book with his special hand drawn cover for $20.00. No Joke. Ask him if you don't believe me. He thinks nothing of it. Great moral fiber!

He does not have a computer to get on this board, but his very dear friend Dondrake does.
Geno Munari
 
Posts: 624
Joined: 01/30/08 01:00 PM
Location: Las Vegas/Del Mar, CA

Postby Terry » 07/26/02 08:00 AM

Maybe Geno can explain why....

The best selling effect at Houdini's Magic Shop is the U.F.O./Whirling Card. For your money, you receive a slapped together set of instructions (with a very nice cover) and some IT which you must prepare, hence "getting screwed" by paying a lot for a little. The effect is "loosely" based on the Hummer Card (although finding the difference is the real trick), hence the "Hummer" reference.
This was posted by Dan Harlan on alt.magic. If it is true, why is it okay for some people to lift material and not okay for others? :eek:
Terry
 
Posts: 1243
Joined: 01/18/08 01:00 PM
Location: Kentucky

Postby Pete Biro » 07/26/02 09:43 AM

I'm out of here.... argh... dog eat dog is the magic dealer biz.... :D
Stay tooned.
User avatar
Pete Biro
 
Posts: 7124
Joined: 01/17/08 01:00 PM
Location: Hollyweird

Postby Geno Munari » 07/26/02 10:41 AM

Well Terry I am glad you asked......

It is recognized by Billy McComb, Joe Stevens Obie Obrien, Rich Bloch and others that the Hummer Card was the basis of our effect. It was sold by Hummer more than 50 years ago, however it was not performed with the same materials that we use nor even close to the handling. Hummer spun the card around his body and did not bring back around again ad infinitum. He did not borrow a person's credit card, or driver's license etc. Cause it to float from hand to hand and then immediately return it to the person.

What we did with the effect says Billy McComb, "..have brought it to an entirely different effect..."

Hummer did not originate the idea of an object floating around the body. It was an old vaudeville gag wherein someone might throw out their hat to the audience and then have it return to them. Just like Lance Burton does.

In the last 50 years no one marketed or performed the effect like ours. Simply no one.

Yes we indeed credit Bob Hummer for the original concept however if his version was so popular, why wasn't it successful? Simple answer. It is not the same effect.

Others have copied our version and not even changed the name, for instance. UFO-YO by Jim Pace, on the Lite Flight Video by Perry Maynard he teaches Fearson's hook up (Fearson is not to happy about this) and then at the end of the video he teaches our version of the U.F.O. (Ultimate Floating Object). He also has three soundtracks on the video that are from the top music charts, i.e., Seal, Phil Collins and R. Kelly. Not one cent is paid to BMI and ASCAP or to the performers.

This last issue has been a bone of contention with myself and Joe Stevens. He has been aware of the situation and knows that he is violating every rule in the book. Yet Joe permitted him to sell at his conventions for years.

This last year we had an informal hearing about the U.F.O. and Jim Pace at the Desert Magic Seminar. All agreed with my defense and Billy McComb was the Judge, along with Rich Bloch.

To summarize:

1. The Hummer Card and the UFO are entirely different characters as to then and now.

"Hence" One more thought.....We are going to have a U.F.O. Competition...and give away $1,000.00 to the best performer with the effect.

Details to follow....
Geno Munari
 
Posts: 624
Joined: 01/30/08 01:00 PM
Location: Las Vegas/Del Mar, CA

Postby Geno Munari » 07/26/02 10:45 AM

By the way Pete...did Johnny Paul give you permission to put out his Cups and Balls?

He gave me a nice set of his and they are different than any that you have. Ask Jim Riser about them.
Geno Munari
 
Posts: 624
Joined: 01/30/08 01:00 PM
Location: Las Vegas/Del Mar, CA

Postby Pete Biro » 07/26/02 11:13 AM

Joe is the ONLY one selling the cups... and he has permission via the video to sell the routine. The cups are NOT actual copies of Johnny's cups as I didn't have a set.

What these are are a cross between the old Ireland and P&L style (older than God) that we made so they would pick up the sponge ball.

Again, Joe had paid for the routine when Johnny was taped. We just made a cup that would work.

By the way... I don't think I ever saw anyone equal to Johnny and Grippo when it came to doing real magic.

All these guys with the thumb tips to switch bills should have been lucky enough to sit across the bar from Johnny when he did his bill work.

I still don't know how he did most of it and I saw him a number of times.

Likewise Grippo.

Peace!
Stay tooned.
User avatar
Pete Biro
 
Posts: 7124
Joined: 01/17/08 01:00 PM
Location: Hollyweird

Postby Pete Biro » 07/26/02 04:57 PM

Just in contact with Joe Stevens and he told me Johnny Paul told him "You should have someone make the cups, as long as they are made to work right, go ahead."

END OF SUBJECT :cool:
Stay tooned.
User avatar
Pete Biro
 
Posts: 7124
Joined: 01/17/08 01:00 PM
Location: Hollyweird

Postby Jim Riser » 07/26/02 06:02 PM

Wait a minute - the subject is not quite closed yet, Pete :)

Geno mentioned above that the "Johnny Paul Cups" that you are supplying to Joe Stevens are not like the actual set that Johnny Paul gave to him (Geno). Having seen and handled both sets of cups - your version and the original Johnny Paul Cups - I can affirm what Geno stated. The original Johnny Paul Cups and your version are quite different. The set that you supply is more like the traditional P&L style (rights owned by Bob Keyser) with an extended taper. The original Johnny Paul Cups in Geno's possession have a different profile. The transition between the taper and 1st bead closely resembles older Martinka Style Cups (which were not spun). The original cups nest differently than the Pete Biro version of the cups.

This info is presented in the interest of correct history and in no way criticizes either set of cups - merely affirms that they are different. Both sets are nice and will do the job with sponge balls quite well. Apparently, no one owns "the rights" to the Johnny Paul Cups.

Perhaps, one of these days, Geno and I will produce exact duplicates of the real Johnny Paul Cups :eek:

Jim
Jim Riser
 
Posts: 987
Joined: 01/17/08 01:00 PM
Location: Tucson, AZ

Postby Guest » 07/27/02 06:03 AM

O.k. I know I'm stepping into a pile here but... when I worked for Kirkham we had two sets of the nesting/multiplying chairs FROM THE DANTE SHOW... as a joke (just to tease Peter) I brought one set to a Castle Swap Meet and he nearly had a heart attack. He knew I wouldn't sell them but, I also know that he was very protective about them.

AS I recall, Peter allowed John Gaughan to replicate the chairs he'd been using for years, so he knew things were safe, during a trip to Europe.

As to the "rights" of the chairs and the NUMEROUS routines that can be done with them... O.k. Peter could sell the rights to his personal "Pit Sit" routine, but I don't honestly see how he could control anything outside that particular contribution... as I understand it, others did a topsy turvey styled act with the chairs (though not as good) back in the 40s and 50s... I may be wrong, but I do believe that's the case. Peter simply expanded upon the idea (I believe it was with Fred Kapps help??? Don't remember all the details)

Sorry, my memory isn't what it used to be and I'm trying to recall talks with Peter that happened 20 years ago... As a side note... I do believe Phil Temple & Co. ended up with the Dante chairs formerly in the Kirkham collection.
Guest
 

Postby Richard Kaufman » 07/27/02 07:37 AM

Craig, "stepping into a pile ..." of what?
Subscribe today to Genii Magazine
User avatar
Richard Kaufman
 
Posts: 20544
Joined: 07/18/01 12:00 PM
Location: Washington DC

Postby Guest » 07/28/02 01:12 PM

Originally posted by Richard Kaufman:
Craig, "stepping into a pile ..." of what?
Oh... I dare not say, given how "sensitive" things can be with folks... ;) (and here lately the most innocent of my posts have been sparking off some serious flames :confused: )
Guest
 

Postby Tom Stone » 07/28/02 01:23 PM

Originally posted by Craig Browning:
Peter simply expanded upon the idea (I believe it was with Fred Kapps help??? Don't remember all the details)
You missed Tommy Wonder's posting above?
User avatar
Tom Stone
 
Posts: 1050
Joined: 01/18/08 01:00 PM
Location: Stockholm, Sweden

Next

Return to Buzz