Sankey Vs Penguin

Discuss the latest news and rumors in the magic world.

Postby Guest » 11/10/05 12:45 PM

Anyone else get the "newsletter" from Jay Sankey about him "seeing the light" and stopping all business with Penguin Magic. here is a exerpt for his email:
By finally going public with all this information, I'm trying to do my part.
"...Now I hope you do yours. Vote with your wallet and let's all work together to
make Penguin Magic extinct today.

Thanks very much for your help!

Yours sincerely,
Jay Sankey"

wow....
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Postby Ryan Matney » 11/10/05 12:55 PM

It's funny how people 'see the light' after thier exclusive contract expires.
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Postby David Mitchell » 11/10/05 01:21 PM

Do you have more information regarding this?

David.
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Postby Jacky Kahan » 11/10/05 03:42 PM

there is a statement on penguin site :

http://www.penguinmagic.com/sankeynote.php

jacky
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Postby NCMarsh » 11/10/05 06:10 PM

Specific issues between Penguin Magic and Sankey Magic are completely confidential.
Apparently "specific issues" is meant to be a euphemism for "Sankey's claims that we sell unauthorized copies of his stuff" (which was the major point made in his VERY long newsletter entry, and which isn't addressed at all in Penguin's response). Penguin certainly doesn't blanche at public discussion of "specific issues" like the packaging of "Anytime, Anywhere."

Their letter is slick, though -- for a few I thought that maybe Karl Rove was moonlighting for the flightless bird...

Maybe this will be a cautionary tale to other creators... no matter how tempting offers from the rip-off outfits may be in the beginning, in the end you dance with them what brung ya.

N.

For the benefit of those who aren't subscribers to Jay's list, here is the email that went out today from him:

To all of you who, over the past two years, have warned me about doing
business with Penguin Magic...

...YOU WERE RIGHT!!

Actually, I've had growing suspicions over the past 16 months, but I was
still really hoping I would never have to write this e-mail. I was really
hoping that Acar Altinsel and Maxwell Murphy at Penguin Magic would be
willing to be team players. But no matter how hard I've tried to make
things work with them (and believe me, I've busted my butt!)in the end it
seems they are only interested in one team: THEIRS.

I remember once reading, "How relationships begin is often how they
continue." I also remember how, when I first began doing business with
Penguin Magic a few years ago I received literally dozens of e-mails from
concerned magicians and mentalists around the world warning me about "the
Penguin Magic business tactics." Even seasoned magic dealers warned me
about "those Penguin guys" and how they have a tendency to sell knocked-off
versions of other people's magic products.

At one of my earliest meetings with Acar and Maxwell, I remember telling
Acar about the warnings and asking him, "How do I know you will never steal
from me?" He replied, "Because we don't steal from our friends."

I now can't help but wonder if I was ever really "their friend" or just
someone else they planned to rip-off from the very beginning.

Silly as it may sound, at first I believed Acar and Maxwell. I believed they
would be honorable business people. I guess because I wanted to believe.
That's just the kind of person I am. I want to think the best of people and
it takes a lot before I finally come to distrust them. But as the months
went by...

They replied to fewer and fewer of my e-mails and phone calls.

Advertisements they promised to place in magazines never materialized.

The agreed upon hotlink from the Penguin website to my site suddenly
disappeared.

Checks began arriving later and later.

And all the while, I would receive at least a few e-mails every week from
magicians complaining about the disrespectful service they got from Penguin
Magic.

Then another strange thing started to happen. Penguin Magic started to order
much smaller quantities of some of my most popular products and in some
cases completely STOPPED ordering them...and yet they still advertised them
on the home page of their website! For example, over a year (!) went by
without them ordering a single "IN A FLASH," yet month-after-month it was
listed as one of their best-sellers. Hmmmm...

I started to have some very dark suspicions. After all, what could be
easier than having a printer punch holes in packs of cards and toss them in
baggies? And keep in mind that at this point they were the world's only
seller of Sankey Magic!

Then a few months ago, when I asked them if they were interested in joining
my newly formed world-wide network of authorized dealers, they jumped at the
chance. But AGAIN, almost from the very start there were clear signs that
they had no intention of playing by the rules...

For the first few weeks of September they posted many of my products at
lower-than-agreed upon prices and undercut all the other authorized dealers
they had just agreed to work together with!!
(In fact, up until the time of this e-mail, if you go to the very first page
of the "Jay Sankey Store" on their US website, you'll see that they CONTINUE
to advertise "Three Ring Circus" for $30 -instead of the agreed upon price
of $40 that all my other dealers are selling it at!)

And then in late September of this year, after they agreed to remove a
collection of "Free
Jay Sankey Downloads" (which I had produced as a way to thank my wonderful
customers) I received news that they had put them back up "behind the
scenes" on the Penguin website! (For all I know they are STILL UP!)

And in even just the last few days, the Penguin boys have pulled yet another
"fast one" and posted a parade of slashed prices on their UK website for
several of my newly upgraded products with the instructional dvds. Again
without my consent and in outright violation of the agreement they entered
into as an authorized dealer earlier this fall!

The list of Penguin Magic's transgressions and violations goes on and on and
on...

As I said at the beginning of this e-mail, I was realy hoping I would never
have to "go public" with this information. After all, a business
relationship is like any other relationship: there are private sides to it
and it can sometimes take everyone a while to work out the kinks and
overcome misunderstandings and miscommunications.

But recently, when I received yet more e-mails from some of you complaining
that you had in good faith ordered from Penguin Magic some of my newly
upgraded products and then received in the mail some of the OLD and
OUT-OF-DATE products (!!!)...well, I knew the time had come to expose the
boys at Penguin Weasel for who they are. I just wouldn't feel right if I
didn't warn you, especially after all you have done over the past few years
for me, my wife Lisa and my son Mason.

I'm also extremely serious about honoring the trust given to me by all the
other dealers in my recently formed world-wide network of authorized
dealers. Unlike the unethical cowboys at Penguin Magic, many of these
dealers have families to feed and long-term ties to the magic community.

I hate talking badly about other people, but there was simply no way I could
remain silent while Penguin Magic continues to pull the crap they have have
been pulling for way, way too long. If I did that, I would feel like I was
letting down far too many honest people.

With that in mind, I would like to ask you to consider boycotting Penguin
Magic. Despite their clever web-marketing, they are still nothing more than
cold-hearted, flightless birds who have only got as far as they have by
riding on the coat-tails of other far more honest and creative people.

As a creator and manufacturer of magic products I have the final say in who
markets my products. But as the all-powerful CUSTOMER you in fact have the
final say in who will sell any products at all.

By finally going public with all this information, I'm trying to do my part.
No I hope you do yours. Vote with your wallet and let's all work together to
make Penguin Magic extinct today.

Thanks very much for your help!

Yours sincerely,
Jay Sankey

PS. The fast-talking boys at Penguin Magic have only purchased a mere 25 of
each of my newly upgraded products with the instructional dvds. If they
continue to advertise these products for sale for even just another week or
so...I'll leave you to draw your own conclusions.
Best,
N.
OrlandoCorporateMagician.com Orlando Magician
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Postby Pete Biro » 11/10/05 06:39 PM

Way to go Jay.
Stay tooned.
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Postby John LeBlanc » 11/10/05 06:45 PM

Originally posted by Pete Biro:
Way to go Jay.
Which way is that? The long, circuitous, ignore-what-nearly-everyone-told-you way? Yeah, I suppose that's one way to go.

John
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Postby CraigMitchell » 11/11/05 12:04 AM

"... they posted many of my products atlower-than-agreed upon prices and undercut all the other authorized dealers they had just agreed to work together with!!

... they CONTINUE to advertise "Three Ring Circus" for $30 -instead of the agreed upon price
of $40 that all my other dealers are selling it at!)"

Is this not price fixing ?
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Postby Guest » 11/11/05 12:21 AM

Maxwell openly addressed the theft accusation via a post on the magic cafe...


---------------------------------------
Hi Everyone,

All of us at Penguin Magic are deeply saddened and confused by the public accusations that Jay Sankey has made this morning.

Penguin Magic has not infringed upon the copyrights of Mr. Jay Sankey,
Sankey Magic, or any other individual or company. We have never manufactured any Sankey Magic items ourselves (or any other item that is owned by another manufacturer). Every single unit of Sankey Magic we've ever sold was purchased directly from Sankey Magic (or from one of their authorized distributors). We'll be happy to prove that we have not in any way violated the trust or copyrights of Sankey Magic.

Thanks to everyone who has contacted us in support. We work very hard to be the best magic shop we can be, and we're proud of what we've achieved so far. We'll continue to work night and day to serve you better.

Sincerely,

Maxwell Murphy
Penguin Magic


----------------------------------------
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Postby Bill Palmer » 11/11/05 12:26 AM

Price fixing is a little bit different. Price fixing is what happens when you have two or more alleged competitors who produce the same kinds of items who agree to artificially inflate or deflate the prices of their items in order to make excessive profits.

Examples would be the artificially inflated prices of repair parts for Japanese television sets. There is nothing illegal about requiring people who carry your merchandise to charge an agreed upon price for it. It may be difficult to enforce, though.

Dealers who sell Gibson musical instruments and Martin musical instruments are required by their franchise agreement to adhere to certain price guidelines or risk losing their dealerships.

Ever wonder why Sony cameras all have the same prices at all the dealers? Or Canon cameras? or Fuji cameras? It's simple -- if they want to carry the line, they toe the line.

But if you can prove that Sony colluded with Canon to keep these prices at the same level, that's price fixing.
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Postby MagicManCT » 11/11/05 01:11 AM

Something puzzles me about this Sankey quote...

" At one of my earliest meetings with Acar and Maxwell, I remember telling
Acar about the warnings and asking him, "How do I know you will never steal
from me?" He replied, "Because we don't steal from our friends."

But didnt Sankey read this as, YES we do STEAL just not from our friends?...

Just wonderin........
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Postby CraigMitchell » 11/11/05 02:19 AM

Hi Bill

Thanks for your input re: the price fixing.

Referring to your example with Sony camcorders - dealers DO in fact charge different prices. Do a quick search on Froogle - and you will see that Amazon's price will differ from Best Buy which will differ from another ... the maximum difference in prices may in fact though be controlled by Sony.

Sankey is stipulating a single exit price to the market which dealers are obligated to charge which while you point out is legally permissible - would nevertheless appear to be anti-competitive and bad for the consumer.

If Penguin ( or any other dealer for that matter ) is able to sell a product lower than another dealer due to cost savings on their part - I see no reason why they should be forced to artificially raise their prices in order to protect the 'sanctity' of the 'dealer network'

The lower retail price does not hurt Jay.
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Postby Guest » 11/11/05 02:47 AM

Originally posted by MagicManCT:
But didnt Sankey read this as, YES we do STEAL just not from our friends?...
That was my immediate thought too. But bear in mind that the quote, while written as if it were verbatim, may well not be.

Dave
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Postby Pete McCabe » 11/11/05 02:58 AM

Apple Computer keeps the prices of its products very close to their official list. Some of the discount dealers will provide extra value by bundling more RAM and/or other accessories, but in general I do not see anybody offer significantly lower prices than the Apple store.

Jay does indicate that Penguin agreed to maintain his official prices, and then failed to do so.
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Postby David Mitchell » 11/11/05 06:12 AM

When Sankey approached us at Ellusionist regarding becoming a dealer, he made it CRYSTAL CLEAR that the price issue was a huge deal with him. We either agreed or we didn't. If we didn't agree, then he wouldn't have sold us the product to sell on our site.

He's even taken me to task for mistakes in prices I've made on our site. But we correct them, because it's the deal that was made.

The biggest issue I have with all this, is PM's attitude towards the contract (verbal or written) which they have so carelessly breached. I have issues with companies that don't live up to their word. If they aren't trustworthy on one thing, what makes them think that I trust them on others?

PM has shown repeatedly that their interests are not our interests.

David.
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Postby Guest » 11/11/05 10:26 AM

"There is hardly anything in the world that some man cannot make a little worse and sell a little cheaper, and the people who consider price only are this man's lawful prey."

--John Ruskin
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Postby Bill Palmer » 11/11/05 10:39 AM

Some people get around the minimum prices set by the various vendors by not publishing the actual price in their catalogs or on the internet. For example, B&H Photo Vidoe will sell almost anything at a discount, but they do it by either selling bare bones versions of the products or by sending a special price upon inquiry. They don't advertise lower prices, though.

In the long run, the price cuts do hurt Jay. For one thing, Penguin will get the items at a lower price, because they purchase much larger quantities than a single dealer would. If Jay is selling exclusively through Murphy's, this will not be the case. Murphy's requires a 60% discount in most cases. But for those dealers who are buying only 3 to 12 each, it makes purchases very difficult.

By year end, I will no longer be selling anything that I don't produce myself. I can't compete with the bedroom dealers when it comes to items produced by Bazar de Magia, Vernet, or L & L. So why should I bother?

Instead, it will be things that I either make or have made for me on an exclusive basis. That's the only way an individual can compete in this market.

Don't get me wrong. I have no sympathy at all for Jay Sankey. He knew what he was getting into when he signed on with the bird. According to some of his earlier communiques, he was doing this to establish a fund for his son's college education.

If you really examine who is behind Penguin, besides Murphy and Acar, you will have a much more complete understanding of what Jay got himself into.

I'm surprised he didn't get robbed or stiffed worse.
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Postby Jonathan Townsend » 11/11/05 10:55 AM

They say "The Bird is cruel".

They call themselves the Sons of the Bird.

They are part of a previous creation which was overpainted with ours, according to the Heinlein story.

Watch out for mirrors.
Mundus vult decipi
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Postby Pete Biro » 11/11/05 12:11 PM

Ain't making and selling magic fun? ARgh...
Stay tooned.
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Postby Tabman » 11/11/05 01:55 PM

Originally posted by Pete Biro:
Ain't making and selling magic fun? ARgh...
Maybe it's like they say in Nashville's Music City after someone has had the once over, "welcome to the music business son!!!"

-=tabman
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Postby David Scollnik » 11/11/05 02:17 PM

Originally posted by Craig Mitchell:
"... they posted many of my products atlower-than-agreed upon prices and undercut all the other authorized dealers they had just agreed to work together with!!

... they CONTINUE to advertise "Three Ring Circus" for $30 -instead of the agreed upon price
of $40 that all my other dealers are selling it at!)"

Is this not price fixing ?
JS never made the claim that the DVDs were SOLD for $30.

I'd like to know if PM ever actually SOLD any of these TRC DVD's for $30. On the Penguin forum, at least one user complained that the price in his shopping cart was $40 and not the $30 advertised:

http://www.penguinmagic.com/discuss/vie ... hp?t=93791

That particular post predates Jay Sankey's first email.

So is it still price fixing if something is advertised at an incorrect price but sold at the correct one, or is it just a case of sloppy web catalog updates?
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Postby Mark Collier » 11/11/05 02:44 PM

It's not price fixing anyway. Read Bill Palmer's post above that explains the difference. Bill is correct.

Circuit City, Comp USA, Costco and Bestbuy all charge the same for an IPOD because Apple insists that they do. Apple set the price not the retailers.

It is done to protect the brand value. Jay Sankey is within his rights to set a minimum price for his offerings.
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Postby Guest » 11/11/05 05:26 PM

It really interesting to see the train wreck that's unfolding and I can't believe that anyone is surprised.

Jay signed his soul to the devil, and complains about it. Face it, some of his recent releases would not have gotten off the bargain shelf in the "real" magic world. Penguin carried the cash to the bank the entire time , and complains about it. They had a cash cow to sell the young'uns.

I smell something, and it smells like money. Mmmmnnn... Money!
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Postby Scott Fridinger » 11/12/05 09:55 AM

Originally posted by MagicManCT:
Something puzzles me about this Sankey quote...

" At one of my earliest meetings with Acar and Maxwell, I remember telling
Acar about the warnings and asking him, "How do I know you will never steal
from me?" He replied, "Because we don't steal from our friends."

But didnt Sankey read this as, YES we do STEAL just not from our friends?...

Just wonderin........
I thought the same thing, fireworks couldn't have made it anymore obvious if you ask me.
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Postby Guest » 11/12/05 10:46 AM

Originally posted by Craig Mitchell:
Referring to your example with Sony camcorders - dealers DO in fact charge different prices.
I beleive the manufacturer (Sony) has a minimum advertised price agreement with the retailers.

Sincerely,
Wayne Stevenson
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Postby John LeBlanc » 11/12/05 11:51 AM

Originally posted by Wayno:
I beleive the manufacturer (Sony) has a minimum advertised price agreement with the retailers.
Lots of manufacturers have that sort of clause in their dealer agreements. In the world of audio recording gear, that's almost the standard. My favorite audio gear dealer, Mercenary Audio in Boston, MA, dropped Neumann microphones from his lineup over Neumann's attempt to strongarm MAP (or Minimum Advertised Price) in Fletcher's online catalog/store.

As a dealer, Fletcher had the option of bending to the demand, or breaking his association. Fletcher no longer handles Neumann microphones.

John
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Postby Scott Fridinger » 11/12/05 11:52 AM

Using Amazon is not a good example, because many of Amazon's prices are from ressellers, who of course are not limited by such deals. Also, manytimes item prices are lowered because the items have been discontinued, and they are making room for new product.

Penguin just wants to get business away from other people.
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Postby Alexander Crawford » 11/14/05 08:56 AM

from "freeadvice.com" regarding vertical price-fixing in the US

Resale price maintenance agreements. Vertical price-fixing -- an agreement between a supplier and a dealer that fixes the minimum resale price of a product -- is a clear-cut antitrust violation. It also is illegal for a manufacturer and retailer to agree on a minimum resale price.

The antitrust laws, however, give a manufacturer latitude to adopt a policy regarding a desired level of resale prices and to deal only with retailers who independently decide to follow that policy. A manufacturer also is permitted to stop dealing with a retailer who breaches the manufacturer's resale price maintenance policy. That is, the manufacturer can adopt the policy on a "take it or leave it" basis.
Interestingly price maintenance contracts are illegal in the UK where there are regarded as anti-competitive. A rare case where the UK's competition laws are more restrictive that the US.
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Postby Jonathan Townsend » 11/29/05 08:42 PM

Originally posted by Jonathan Townsend:
They say "The Bird is cruel".

They call themselves the Sons of the Bird.

They are part of a previous creation which was overpainted with ours, according to the Heinlein story.

Watch out for mirrors.
I've been informed that a few readers were having trouble with this post.

Please notice the capitalization of "S(ons) O(f) the (B)ird and the clear reference to a Robert Heinlein story, "The Unpleasant Profession of Jonathan Hoag"


Yes our world has such creatures and perhaps our world would be better for their unmaking.

Sorry, no crack or any drugs whatsoever required here. Amazing story there with plenty to offer the magician looking for good plot ideas.

Be well.
Mundus vult decipi
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Postby Guest » 11/29/05 08:59 PM

RAH,RAH, RAH!
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Postby Bill Palmer » 12/02/05 12:13 AM

One of the clever ways Penguin gets around some of the accusations of copyright and other violations is by stating that they never manufactured any of this material. Why should they? They get Magic Makers to do it.

The connection between Magic Makers and Penguin is one of mystery.
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Postby Guest » 12/02/05 07:41 AM

Do you really think that Penguin "gets" Magic Makers to do these things? I continue to be surprised when I see many individuals that I've come to respect through reading their posts and opinions on these boards, and their obvious knowledge of our art, be willing to speculate like this.

Those of you that are always "in the know" may have not yet heard about an upcoming product that MM is releasing that Penguin, and some other dealers, turned down immediately due to the fact that is too similar to another marketed effect. I can say, with no speculation, that Penguin did not encourage MM's decision to come out with this effect.

This is one of the many steps that Penguin is taking as they begin to truly re-dedicate themselves to the magic community. You're about to see Penguin make some big changes and improvements.

By the way, did you see Penguin's new Gazzo store? Gazzo is a brilliant addition to the Penguin lineup. WOW!


Sam
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Postby David Mitchell » 12/02/05 09:14 AM

Rededicate... in order for the 're' to actually be an important part of that word, the 'dedicate' should actually have had weight. Perhaps I might be a little biased, but at the same time, there are people who truly are "in the know" regarding certain things, who are certainly more credible than P.

And just because there had been one instance of independant thought regarding an MM item, certainly does not mean that there hasn't been any collusion between the two in the past.

PM's continual dealings with someone who has a known history ignoring obvious truths seems to me that their 'looking the other direction' is more than intentional.

You can tell a lot about a company by the way it does business with it's suppliers, and it's customers, and it's an outstanding fact the PM has stepped on the toes of many people on both sides of the fence.

Aside from Jay Sankey I've heard more than one big name magician state nothing but distaste for PM, and a desire to see their presence in magic fade.

David.
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Postby John LeBlanc » 12/02/05 10:44 AM

Originally posted by Sam Blankenship:
Do you really think that Penguin "gets" Magic Makers to do these things?
That may be a case of putting the cart before the horse.

John
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Postby Guest » 12/28/05 06:50 PM

Between Penguin giving away every secret in magic for less than $10 with their instant downloads, and Sankey putting out a new dvd every month, I think they deserve each other.

And kids that shop at Penguin have no idea when they buy something from any of these buy it now video guys that it's a variation on something stolen. As for Sankey complaining, didn't he look around their site, Red Hot Mamacita(Chicago Opener),Eye of the Tiger(Sands), TranspOzition(Harris), not to mention their selling individual moves for $6 each. No reason to do them just so kids can learn them so the next time your table hopping Applebee's or Friday's instead of some smartalec kid saying hey I've got that deck, they'll sit there, Side Steal, look there's a double lift, oh and how did I know he was going to do a mercury fold.......
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Postby El Harvey Oswald » 06/09/12 12:09 PM

"so the next time your table hopping Applebee's or Friday's instead of some smartalec kid saying hey I've got that deck, they'll sit there, Side Steal, look there's a double lift, oh and how did I know he was going to do a mercury fold...."


do better stuff
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