SCAM MAN

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Postby Larry Horayne » 12/06/02 04:02 PM

Ortize has had my money for over a half year -- no book. Some schmuck in Hollywood buys his yesterday. SCAM, INDEED...
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Postby Guest » 12/06/02 05:03 PM

Well, it figures. I've found that it always takes a lot longer for people from Tennessee to get things...

(I apologize to all the other fine folk in Tennessee. My remark is really directed to Mr. Singer, since he called me a schmuck.)
:)
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Postby Pete Biro » 12/06/02 11:28 PM

Singer called me something nasty too, but not to my face. :mad:
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Postby Guest » 12/07/02 02:10 AM

Originally posted by Pete Biro:
Singer called me something nasty too, but not to my face. :mad:
Pete,

Nothing nasty was said to my face. I simply posted in another thread that I picked up the new Ortiz book at Hollywood Magic, and then this thread begins with me designated as "some schmuck."

I know it wasn't personal, and I didn't take it that way. I just couldn't resist a gentle riposte.

Your experience sounds to be of a different character altogether.

I also believe that Mr. Ortiz has been unfairly castigated for things outside his control and squarely against his wishes. The type of vituperation I have seen here and on other boards really doesn't fit the reality of the situation and would only be appropriate for expression by, say, some poor soul with a subscription to The Braue Notebooks.
:)

- Scott Moore
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Postby Terry » 12/07/02 06:53 AM

I also believe that Mr. Ortiz has been unfairly castigated for things outside his control
and squarely against his wishes. The type of vituperation I have seen here and on other boards really doesn't fit the reality of the situation
Actually Scott you are mistaken on this. The pre-publication offer was made with the delivery to be in June. When it was known the delivery date was not going to be met, there was no attempt to keep purchasers notified. It wasn't until enough complaints were posted that Ortiz responded. This IS directly his fault.

Now to be fair, Ortiz freely refunded my money. In the enclosed letter, there was no apology for the lack of information, just a somewhat defensive tone.

John Carney has accepted pre-pub orders for his book. He has kept people notified, by email, of everything. This is the way business should be conducted.

Also, don't get Pete started about the fantasy Notebooks. :)
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Postby MaxNY » 12/07/02 08:36 AM

Is it Mr. Singer, or Mrs. Singer?
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Postby Guest » 12/07/02 09:26 AM

"Actually Scott you are mistaken on this. The pre-publication offer was made with the delivery to be in June. When it was known the delivery date was not going to be met, there was no attempt to keep purchasers notified. It wasn't until enough complaints were posted that Ortiz responded. This IS directly his fault."

This isn't entirely accurate. Everyone was notified in reference to the delays. The first week of July, Andrew Wimhurst had passed on the word from Darwin that there was a delay in the layout of the book. And the book probably wouldn't be ready until August. As a matter of fact, Darwin lectured at Denny's the very same week because he had fully expected the book to be ready. Needless to say, it wasn't (however he did perform about 7 effects from the book).

In August, Darwin e-mailed Sandy Singer with details, but since Sandy was kind enough to post the "off the record" e-mail in regards to the layout, Darwin followed up with a post that explained what everyone already knew - the book was delayed due to the delay in layout and design.

Darwin then posted in September and in October the status of his book. His final post was that it would be ready to ship from the printer in November, and that's exactly when it was released.

Granted, Darwin probably doesn't have the luxury of time to post on every magic forum (like I do), so some of his messages were posted by others that are in direct contact with him.

I don't speak for Darwin, but I do know that this ordeal has been a headache for the last several months. I also know that Darwin's intentions were never anything less than honorable. He didn't know there would be these kinds of delays (after being promised that deadlines would be met).

The good news is the book is finally here and I am fairly confident that if you purchased this book, you will find it to be a wonderful book and well worth the money spent.
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Postby Guest » 12/07/02 10:05 AM

Originally posted by Terry Terrell:
Actually Scott you are mistaken on this.
Terry,

I don't believe either of us is mistaken. One can be mistaken over the facts of a situation, but each person is entitled their opinion/interpretation of it. I was giving mine. We disagree.

I did not place a pre-order for the Ortiz book, but I have done so on many other books in the past where unexpected delays occurred. e.g. as I recall, it was over a year after placing a pre-publication order for Expert Coin Magic that the book actually saw the light of day.

Did I get frustrated? Yes.

Did I get disappointed? Yes.

Did I get angry? No. This world of magic is very, very small and within it the number of people providing the community with quality material which is the distillation of many many hours of research, creative thought and performance insight, with little remuneration, is infinitesimal indeed. I'm shocked that they bother, frankly. I'll give such people a lot of leeway in the tortuous and torturous process of bringing their creations to the market where we lesser mortals in the magic world can scavenge it.

I am not trying to change your opinion here. I suppose that I am really posting this in case it might be read by Mr. Ortiz and/or other authors of his ilk, to let them know that there are indeed readers who really appreciate their gifts to the community, and who can be understanding even if their funds are "held in escrow" for a time.

By the way, the book is excellent, Terry. I hope you do indeed buy it, and that the pleasure you derive from it can somewhat mitigate the frustration you've experienced.

(I also must agree with your assessment of Mr. Carney. His conscientiousness is to be applauded.)

Cheers,

Scott
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Postby Guest » 12/07/02 10:13 AM

Originally posted by MaxNY:
Is it Mr. Singer, or Mrs. Singer?
I wasn't sure myself at first, so I visited the website provided on his Forum info page before applying the appellation of "Mr."
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Postby Guest » 12/07/02 09:01 PM

I may be way off here, but I took Sandy Singer's original post in this thread as a light-hearted jibe, not a blast -- an ironical comment, as it were.

Nonetheless, Scott "Once A Magician" Moore beautifully represents my thoughts regarding our responsibility to support the creators in our Art, of which Darwin Ortiz is undoubtedly a guiding light.

--Randy Campbell
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Postby Larry Horayne » 12/17/02 06:46 PM

STILL NO BOOK -- ORTIZE HAS THE CONSCIENCE OF A PIRANHA
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Postby Guest » 12/17/02 07:39 PM

Sandy,

Your book shipped out today. It is scheduled to arrive on Thursday.

Between posting confidential information passed on to you by Darwin and your behavior you exhibited by posting a nasty thread about Darwin without once contacting him or even reading his updates on the other threads that would inform you of the status of the books really speaks volumes about your character.

Is this because you have a girl's name?
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Postby Pete Biro » 12/17/02 08:03 PM

He's named after a Sewing Machine???? :confused: :confused: :confused:
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Postby Pete Biro » 12/17/02 08:03 PM

YowwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwCH!! :mad: :p :mad:
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Postby Guest » 12/17/02 11:25 PM

Originally posted by my friend Randy Campbell:
I may be way off here, but I took Sandy Singer's original post in this thread as a light-hearted jibe, not a blast -- an ironical comment, as it were.
Loathe though I am to quote myself, it seems I was perfectly wrong about perceived irony in Mr. Singer's post.

Too bad.

--Randy Campbell
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Postby Darwin Ortiz » 12/18/02 01:49 AM

Originally posted by Terry Terrell:
Now to be fair, Ortiz freely refunded my money. In the enclosed letter, there was no apology for the lack of information, just a somewhat defensive tone.
It appears that Mr. Terrell and I have different ideas of what constitutes a defensive tone (and also what constitutes an apology). So that readers can decide for themselves, I quote in full my letter to Mr. Terrell:

"Dear Mr. Terrell:

I gather from your posts on the Genii Board that you regret having pre-ordered my book Scams & Fantasies with Cards. Consequently, I've enclosed a check refunding your money. (I've added two dollars as interest for the time your money was tied up.) Sorry for the inconvenience.

Sincerely,
Darwin Ortiz"
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Postby Terry » 12/18/02 06:14 AM

Darwin,

Your lack of business ethics have really shown through with this book fiasco.

You falsely accepted orders for a book that was advertised to be ready June 2002. It was not shipped until December 2002.

You failed to keep paid customers informed of developments. You only replied when enough negative feedback, on your failure to communicate, was posted.

I would say Sandy's assessment of this situation is valid and no amount of sucking up to you by others on this board will change this.
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Postby Guest » 12/18/02 09:46 AM

Terry,
What else are you looking for Darwin to do?

And what about YOUR lack of ethics? You would have us believe that Darwin was defensive and not apologetic. Now we know the truth, don't we?

You and Sandy are clearly in the minority here. Darwin is a stand up guy, and a gentleman. No one here is kissing his ass. The fact is that we like him, and we respect him.

This new book is great by the way! Terry, don't let what's happened here prevent you from the pleasure you will receive by owning it and working your way through it. This process is one of the true joys of magic. I often get excited about new things, when they're good, (Paper Engine, Constant Fooling, etc.) But even looking at it as objectively as I can, I just love this book. This is what a card magic book should be. Magic books like this are great because even when we're finished reading it, we're not really finsihed! The pleasure of working with the book is a joy to behold. I can't help but skip around (in the BOOK, not outside in the park!) However I know that I will work my way through it in its entirety. As we all know, that's not always the case with some of the books that come out.

Darwin, Please...Keep 'em coming! What a great legacy you're leaving!

Sincerely,
John
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Postby Dustin Stinett » 12/18/02 10:05 AM

Originally posted by Terry Terrell:
You falsely accepted orders for a book that was advertised to be ready June 2002. It was not shipped until December 2002. [Emphasis mine: DS]
Terry,

Unless you can prove that Darwin Ortiz knew at the time he began accepting prepublication orders that the book would be six months late, your comment flirts with libel and is ill-advised.

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Postby Terry » 12/18/02 10:20 AM

And what about YOUR lack of ethics? You would have us believe that Darwin was defensive and not apologetic. Now we know the truth, don't we?
Do you?

I stated he refunded my money, 6 months after I sent it and several months after the advertised release date.

As far as him being defensive, I mis-typed my original reply and mean't to refer to his defensive posts about the delays after MUCH complaining by others.

What I'm saying is that any up front communication about any delays would have been appreciated and understood.

Again, maybe others should take note of John Carney. He is self publishing and taking pre-orders for his book 'Secrets'. John also has emailed any updates as they happen. Communication IS the key.

John, I hope you do enjoy the book. I'll wait on buying it until I've read other independent reviews that will hopefully be posted here or the Magic Cafe.
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Postby Jamie Badman » 12/18/02 10:33 AM

I pre-ordered John Carney's book; don't seem to have received any email updates. What's the latest on it ? Any idea when it'll be shipped out ?

Cheers,

Jamie.
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Postby Terry » 12/18/02 10:36 AM

Unless you can prove that Darwin Ortiz knew at the time he began accepting prepublication orders that the book would be six months late, your comment flirts with libel and is ill-advised.
I never said he was psychic and knew it was going to be 6 months late.

Advertising a product with a publication date (June 2002) and accepting money for said product and then not delivering said product on said date is considered what? Some might say fraud.

Knowing said product was not ready or available for delivery on advertised publication date, did the individual producing said product attempt to notify either directly or through another ad, those persons who pre-ordered said product? No.

Most information was brought to this board secondhand by individuals who had contact or knowledge. It wasn't until after much heated discussion that the individual producing said product chose to publicly inform members of the Genii Forum about the delay.
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Postby Terry » 12/18/02 10:39 AM

I pre-ordered John Carney's book; don't seem to have received any email updates. What's the latest on it ? Any idea when it'll be shipped out ?
I received this email on November 24th:

Hello,

Thanks for your order! The Book of Secrets has gone to the printer and we are waiting for the blueline copy. Once we give the go ahead on this proof copy, they will start to print.

The tentative delivery date is Jan. 1st, provided there are no complications or delays. That is when I get them...I will then have to box and post the books.

I appreciate your interest in my work and will do my best to get the book to you in a timely manner. To expedite your order, I am setting things up so that the boxes will already be addressed and ready for packing when the books arrive.

Deluxe editions will take a bit longer, as the sewn books then go to a different place for the bonded leather binding. Perhaps 2-4 weeks longer.
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Postby Richard Kaufman » 12/18/02 10:50 AM

I've seen more stupid posts in this damn thread than in any other on the forum so far.
I think we can safely say that Darwin Ortiz had no idea the book would be delayed. His publisher told him the book would be ready on such and such a date and he believed him. The one thing he didn't factor into the equation is that his publisher is an idiot who didn't have the money to publish the book and he should have known that from the start. It would appear that A-1 Multimedia has been selling off the rights to its older videotapes over the past year and a half in order to pay for the publication of this book and all its related expenses.
This is a different story than David Roth's Expert Coin Magic because of one reason: I also wrote and illustrated that book and it took three years of my life instead of the two I alloted. So, it took me a year longer than expected. Considering how tight money is in our business (low profit margin), one really could not afford to keep sending out postcards to people trying to explain the delay. These days, with e-mail, things are more easily taken care of.
In the case of Darwin's book, he turned over a completed manuscript so all that needed to be done was lay the book out with the illustrations from Darwin's designated illustrator, Tony Dunn.
The publisher should've had the book layed out and off to the printer in a month or two--it's not like the publisher has made a lot of new videotapes or published any other books in the last few years.
So, to say that Darwin has been trying to scam people is simply not true.
This thread is closed.
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