hold out fever!

Discuss the latest news and rumors in the magic world.

Postby Guest » 04/04/03 08:29 PM

the hold out wars are on!

lookee here... about halfway down!
http://www.jamesriser.com/Magic/JamesRiserMagic.html
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Postby Steve Hook » 04/04/03 08:54 PM

There are a couple of statements in Mr. Riser's ad that may lack meaning if one hasn't followed the holdout wars.

The ad makes obvious Alaskan reference to Thomas Wayne, who inflamed the situation at another site by insisting that it was a waste of time to use anything but a F/K UltHoldout.

Bob Kohler's product's ultimate quality speaks for itself (as verified on the Internet by those who have seen it) but TW said, in so many words, that there wasn't room for a less expensive, less feature-laden model.

I guess this in part motivated Mr. Riser to proceed with production of his version.
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Postby C. Hampton » 04/05/03 08:42 PM

Yeap,

I was well aware of that discusion, and I think that Mr Riser will be able to prove Mr Wayne wrong.

What I will like Mr Riser is to see if he can give us any hints as far if he's model is going to have the short distance/long movement feature or not.

I would love to see his design, and he is going to let eveyone see it, which is great.

Mr Riser, please keep us post it. ;)
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Postby Guest » 04/06/03 12:13 AM

Originally posted by Steve Hook:
[...]
The ad makes obvious Alaskan reference to Thomas Wayne, who inflamed the situation at another site by insisting that it was a waste of time to use anything but a F/K UltHoldout. [...]
Whoa, wait just a minute there...

I took a few moments to review every post I made in the discussion you are referring to (MagicCafe, early December 2002) and I couldn't find one place where I said ANYTHING of the sort. Of course I supported my belief that the holdout we are producing offers the very best solutions to date, but I never insisted (or even implied) it was a "waste of time to use anything but a F/K UltHoldout". THAT claim is a complete fabrication.

So who's really being inflammatory here, Steve?

Thomas Wayne
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Postby Tim Trono » 04/06/03 12:37 AM

Id have to agree with Thomas. I have been fortunate enough to see the F/K Holdout and although the other models out there are very good, the F/K Holdout takes things to a whole new level. Even Bob Fitch, when initially shown some of the mechanical improvements, advised this was light years ahead of what he had worked with in the past. And Bob has been using the Holdout for a LONG time. Bob demonstrated some of the stuff with the old Holdout and devastated me. What he is doing with the new version is even better.

I too wrote about this on other boards and was barraged as to why I was putting down the other versions. I was not. It is just my personal feeling that the F/K Holdout goes way beyond others I have seen. A big part of this is you have people like Bob Kohler, Bob Fitch, Eric Mead, Michael Forbes, Thomas Wayne, etc. who are all sharing DEEP expertise in specific areas. The Holdout is NOT an easy thing you have to kind of live with it. But the experience of this team will save lots and lots of frustration, time, bad habits, etc. How you move, how to repair the Holdout, how you position your body, etc. ARE extremely important. Id advise you to watch someone who has NOT considered all of these aspects and then watch Kohler or Fitch and you will SEE the difference. I just saw someone (no name mentioned) use a Holdout and you could tell something funky was going on. There was something weird with his body movements that just drew attention. But Ive seen both Kohler and Fitch use their Holdout and simply didnt have an idea they were using it. I bet you many of you have seen them do stuff with the Holdout and not even realized it.

Mechanically it is fabulous but it will not just get up and do magic for you none of the versions will. The F/K Holdout has some superb features that make it more user friendly, more practical, more useful, etc. So with all due respect to all involved, I would doubt Thomas was trashing any other versions but believes, as do I and many many top names in magic who have purchased this, that the F/K version offers some huge advantages. No one is forcing anyone to buy anything. If youd rather go with a different version, the other versions I have seen are well made and do the job well. If I were going to use the Holdout Id go to the extra expense and use the F/K Holdout its just a matter of preference. Again, I think a huge factor is the knowledge that is being imparted with the F/K Holdout.

Thomas is very proud of what hes done with the mechanical aspect and he should be. Its really superb. His design improvements impressed veterans like Fitch and Kohler.

But to each his own...
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Postby Steve Hook » 04/07/03 03:41 PM

Originally posted by Thomas Wayne:

Whoa, wait just a minute there...

I took a few moments to review every post I made in the discussion you are referring to (MagicCafe, early December 2002) and I couldn't find one place where I said ANYTHING of the sort. Of course I supported my belief that the holdout we are producing offers the very best solutions to date, but I never insisted (or even implied) it was a "waste of time to use anything but a F/K UltHoldout". THAT claim is a complete fabrication.

So who's really being inflammatory here, Steve?

Thomas Wayne
As usual, Thomas, you protest whenever someone doesn't agree with you. However this time even <you> have gone too far. A "complete fabrication"? You've never insisted or implied that it was a waste of time to use any holdout besides the admitedly top-of-the-line Fitch/Kohler??? What did you go back and check, all your posts to "Better Homes and Gardens"?

How about this from you at The Magic Cafe:
"Now that I took the time to go look at Hank Lee's site [to see Antonio Romero's "Perfect Holdout"], my opinion is that it's $190 worth of junk .

Or how about this Thomas Wayne quote:
"Not only can this reel-on-a-safetypin (if that's what it is) steal items, but it can also deliver at least one thing: an instant case of buyer's remorse! "

Or how about <this> TW quote:
"Whether or not your friend's device is 'well made' does not keep the concept itself from being 'junk'."

TW, I'm sure you're a mechanical genius. That has little to do with your social grace or your factual memory however, which is why there is the originally mentioned thread [HERE] which grew so contentious between you and a host of others that the topic was locked.

And by the way, all I stated originally (go back and read it) was that:

1) Jim Riser's web-ad reference to "Alaska" was a reference to the controversy you created at The Magic Cafe;

2) that you posted at The Magic Cafe that "...in so many words, that there wasn't room for a less expensive, less feature-laden model." And

3) your posts, which included a heated discussion with Mr. Jim Riser, probably helped Mr. Riser proceed with production of a holdout.

You don't seem to like my facts but unfortunately they are that...facts.

Steve H

ps: In case Thomas Wayne, Tim, or anyone else here at The Genii Forum missed this, as one who has seen the Fitch/Kohler Ultimate Holdout,

1) I have stated repeatedly publicly and privately that the Fitch/Kohler Ultimate Holdout is state-of-the-art and the best holdout on the market.

2) I have stated publicly and privately that the ad copy Bob Kohler published at his website [ HERE ] is the single greatest magic ad ever written (sorry Jeff, Dick, and Ted). And what's interesting is that, based on my own observations as well as many others who previewed the UH, the ad copy is all true!
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Postby Pete McCabe » 04/07/03 04:01 PM

Steve Hook:

Is this really the best you can do? You accuse Thomas Wayne of "insisting that it was a waste of time to use anything but a F/K UltHoldout."

When challenged, all you can offer is specific negative reviews of three other competing holdouts. How can you possibly interpret these three negative reviews of specific products to a blanket insistence against all non-F/K UltHoldouts?
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Postby Steve Hook » 04/07/03 04:25 PM

Peter:

No, that's not the best I can do...I could provide more if that's what you want.

How about going and reading the entire thread at The Magic Cafe and then coming back to tell me that was not his intention and argument?

Not sure why your response is such but I won't duck the issue, as long as you will have read the thread, including my original post there about "contentiousness". At that point, I had briefly met TW in Vegas and respected him because an old acquaintance, Bob Kohler, was doing business with him. I couldn't stomach the attack on Antonio and posted the following:

"It would help my ulcer if this thread became less contentious and accusatory.

Some of the posts from knowledgeable people whom I respect are causing an erosion of that respect.

There is little doubt that the FKW holdout is a gem...and that's based on my seeing it demoed in Vegas. (JohnMartin: I hate to state the obvious, but there are things you can do with a holdout, and even more with a FKW holdout, that can't be done simply sleeving...)

But isn't there room in the magic community for more than one device and more than one price level? Surely someone capable of investing $1500 to $2000 in a utility device will know the difference between the devices. That defensiveness in the air, which is now so thick as to require [a] chainsaw to cut through it, is unnecessary.

Please slow my disillusionment. Stick to the facts and avoid the attacks.

Peace out..."

This was met with an unpleasant private email from TW and so it goes. All I've done here is to explain the more obtuse of Mr. Jim Riser's statements in his web ad.

But little of any of this makes much sense unless you read the four pages of the MC thread. Read what, for instance, Dan Watkins writes. It's factual and gentlemanly. Read Antonio's replies. Factual and gentlemanly. Read Carlos Hampton's posts. Factual and gentlemanly. Then read Thomas Wayne's posts. Gentlemanly? Polite?

Hey, whatever. The posts all speak for themselves and we're wasting time arguing this here. All I ask is that you completely review the posts and then, if you wish, get back to me, publicly or, probably better, privately.

Cheers,

Steve
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Postby Brad Henderson » 04/07/03 05:35 PM

Hi, just a suggestion. If you want others to check out the thread in question a link would be most helpful, or the very least a clue as to where on the MC it is located.

While I am interested in reading what the bruhaha is about, I will say that I have seen the F/K holdout and was totally impressed. Nevertheless, I'm always interested in seeing all sides of a story.
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Postby Steve Hook » 04/07/03 06:00 PM

Brad:

It was in there, just obscured by all the other text:

"...which is why there is the originally mentioned thread <HERE> ..."

Steve
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Postby Robert Allen » 04/07/03 06:10 PM

Hmm. I went and read the Bob Kohler magic page. I'm not being facetious, or exaggerating, when I say that I haven't seen add copy that flamboyant (to use a nice word) since Jeff Busby was doing business in Oakland. I'm not just referring to the holdout ad either. The hyperbole surrounding the description of the Porper Cups is, well, not good. As for the holdout, I hope no sensible person would open them up for lawsuits, as the licensing agreement would seem to do, by buying this product/filling out the licensing agreement.

I do have to admit I'm curious as to how good the holdout is, but paying that price for a weight holdout is absurd (this coming from a guy who paid $512 for a set of Busbys machined stainless cups years ago). But to each their own.
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Postby Guest » 04/07/03 06:45 PM

Originally posted by Pete McCabe:
Steve Hook:

Is this really the best you can do? You accuse Thomas Wayne of "insisting that it was a waste of time to use anything but a F/K UltHoldout."

When challenged, all you can offer is specific negative reviews of three other competing holdouts. How can you possibly interpret these three negative reviews of specific products to a blanket insistence against all non-F/K UltHoldouts?
Actually Pete, all the negative statements I made were referring to only ONE specific product. But now you're seeing the nasty side of Steve Hook. He's made a claim that is not true - as you noted above - and when confronted with his deception he goes on the warpath.

In fact, with all of his out-of-context quotes he's trying to disguise the fact that I only spoke negatively about ONE specific "holdout", which I do happen to think is "junk". Normally - outside of Steve Hook's special little world - I would be entitled to hold and express such an opionion. Steve Hook doesn't like my opinion however, so he feels the need to greatly exaggerate a four month-old debate, hoping that no one will actually check the facts.

I checked the facts and I would urge others to do the same. If you do you will find that Steve Hook is a liar; I absolutely DID NOT make any statements "insisting that it was a waste of time to use anything but a F/K UltHoldout", and all the personal attack and innuendo he can muster won't change that simple truth. I argued against the concept and design of ONE specific item - that's it.

In a follow-up post above, as Steve Hook tries to turn up the "heat" on me, he again uses innuendo when he reprints a MagicCafe post of his and then writes: "This was met with an unpleasant private email from TW and so it goes."

Of course this is a further attempt to convince you about what a bad guy I am. Turns out Steve just can't get off that exaggeration kick; here's the entire text of that "unpleasant private email":
On 2002-12-09 00:01, Thomas Wayne wrote:
Steve,
In the interest of ending any disharmony I am responding to your latest post privately.
Mr. Romero is asking us to believe that a friend of his, WITHOUT HIS KNOWLEDGE, registered for and received MagicCafe memebership, as Antonio Romero - using Romero's NAME, EMAIL ADDRESS and OTHER INFORMATION, and then failed to meniton it to Mr. Romero (?). If this story had any merit at all it would seem the "friend" would have identified himself, or better yet, registered under his OWN name. I'm sorry, but the whole "friend" story is a VERY hard pill to swallow.
You are critical of my sugggestion that Mr. Romero is being disingenuous; I think I was spot on and I think the "friend" story is ridiculous. Even so, in the very unlikely event that Romero is telling the truth, then his FRIEND was being rather disingenous himself. Reread his posts and tell me he isn't attempting to sound distanced from Romero, when in fact he has an supposed close relationship.
In any event, I am fine with letting the matter drop, assuming you can refrain from any more critical comments about my position. If you can't, then I will be very happy to argue my position in the forum. The choice is yours.
Regards,
Thomas Wayne
Feel free to form your own opinion of how unpleasant my private message actually was.

I'm reminded of a line from "Bonfire of the Vanities", where the lead character's father says to him, "You know I've always been a firm believer in telling the truth, but in a case like this, if the truth won't help you... then LIE!".

I can only guess Steve Hook has taken that advice to heart.

Regards,
Thomas Wayne
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Postby Richard Kaufman » 04/07/03 06:58 PM

I really don't want this thread to degenerate into a war to see who can fart the loudest or we will simply close it.
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Postby Dustin Stinett » 04/07/03 08:36 PM

Everyone is going to want a "last word" to express their version of the "truth." So I will get it: I read the Magic Cafe thread. It does speak for itself. Anyone interested can feel free to go there. Perhaps you will come to the same conclusion I did.

Enough is enough. Topic closed.

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