Amazing Jonathan Comedy Central show

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Postby Guest » 11/21/06 06:36 AM

Wow! What a great show! When AJ said, "They're identical, especially THIS one", he delivered the line WAY better than the way Gazzo's been doing it for the past TWENTY-FIVE YEARS!

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Postby Guest » 11/21/06 05:17 PM

If it makes you feel any better I saw AJ about 23 years ago and he used that line.
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Postby Pete Biro » 11/21/06 07:24 PM

That line is maybe 100 years olde from vaudeville.
Stay tooned.
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Postby Guest » 11/21/06 09:08 PM

100 years old? Well, better to be hack than a thief, I always say.

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Postby Guest » 11/21/06 09:53 PM

Does that make Gazzo and everyone else who uses the line a hack as well?
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Postby Pete Biro » 11/21/06 11:44 PM

NO. If the line fits use it. I use crap from old Orben Books, altho I update the references.

I know the "These are both alike, especially this one." Was a favorite of Fred Kaps. And he was no hack.
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Postby Guest » 11/22/06 12:44 AM

Hmmm, good question.

When you're watching a TV show and they introduce an "evil twin" or one of the other dozen plots that keep popping up in the vast wasteland what do you think of the writers?
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Postby Guest » 11/24/06 08:47 AM

I was curious as to who within the comedy / magic community is considered to be 100
percent hack-free. That is to say, who owes no debt to the Orben joke books or to building on the premises and lines of others?

With Amazing Johnathan, part of his success is due to the fact his jokes work on the prism principle.

The old lines work on those who have never heard them before whereas those who HAVE usually realize he is slamming the hacks who use the material as the release point of a joke instead of having it as a spotting point within the bigger premises that Johnathan is subversively editorializing against hacks by overtly playing one.

(which is sort of what Ballantine did, but the key new wrinkles are that Johnathan chooses to paint with dark visceral language and imagery that endear him to the impolitical and impolite.)

Just as the better singers all get more
mileage out of White Christmas, the better
comic performers get more mileage out of the
old Orben joke books....but yet magicians get
called hacks far more than the singers do.
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Postby Guest » 11/26/06 08:00 AM

Ritter: To suggest that AJ is purveying a big meta-joke on hackery is a bit of a stretch. In order to have credibility as a satirist of hack, one must first display one's own primo writing chops. Aj's funniest line in the show in question, "Tastes like Schick" was written by a heckler who shouted it out one day. Aj is wildly entertaining, and a terrific synthesist of other people's work, (A la Lance Burton's 'Scissors in the Head')but he's no kind of writer.

Pete: There's a difference between jokes one has paid to use, as in the Orben books, and jokes one uses because one has heard others use them successfully. Regarding the latter, if they are used without regard for...or even knowledge of...the identity of the writer, then it's hack. If the writer is known, as in the case of "If you believe in telekinesis, raise my hand," (Emo Phillips,)it's thievery, plain and simple.

Now that you, the reader, know who wrote the "raise my hand" line, you'll immediately stop using it, won't you?

Won't you?

Hey......where are you going..........?


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Postby Guest » 11/26/06 08:44 AM

Hey I watched the show and enjoyed it! And in the end thats all that matters! I doubt anybody watching thinks about what was lifted and what was not? Besides its all been done and said before!
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Postby Max Maven » 11/26/06 08:57 AM

Originally posted by cjjanis:
Besides its all been done and said before!
No it hasn't.
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Postby Brian Marks » 11/26/06 02:11 PM

Originally posted by Max Maven:
Originally posted by cjjanis:
[b] Besides its all been done and said before!
No it hasn't. [/b]
No it hasn't! Damn Max said it already! :D
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Postby Rick Ruhl » 11/26/06 05:01 PM

Originally posted by Brian Marks:
Originally posted by Max Maven:
[b]
Originally posted by cjjanis:
[b] Besides its all been done and said before!
No it hasn't. [/b]
No it hasn't! Damn Max said it already! :D [/b]
And he's right, I can come up with new lines everyday and some work and some don't. Comedy writing is based on formula's (i.e a formula joke and certain words that are funny).

What may seem funny at 1 AM, is not at 10 AM, and vice versa.

And Pete is right too, take old lines and rework them. God knows I have the books for it. Berle, orben, etc... nothing wrong with updating a line for Viet Nam to work with Iraq.
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Postby Guest » 11/27/06 11:31 AM

Dairina--

With all due respect to what might be your truly encyclopedic mind, (the Gazzo attribution flub aside), what system would qualify in determining whether a performer has primo writing chops?

I suppose it is merely a matter of opinion where the general public holds the mightiest sceptre, but you really seem confident in your knowledge so I thought I would ask.

As my interest in the Genii boards are merely as a layman for I have no magic skills whatsoever, I defer on this matter to the magic intelligencia by wondering who have been the stage writers within this industry who have acquitted themselves
(and those they wrote for) the best.

In the matter of opinion as to whether Johnathan can write, well....it is just that, a matter of opinion, but I would offer up the argument that he was the head writer for Ruckus in 1991, which was a critically acclaimed game show variation backed by
Merv Griffin, episodes that are still traded and collected today.

In addition, back when I was on the Amazing Johnathan payroll,
I saw over 400 shows and witnessed on many occasions how his abstract ideas and ad-libs both evolved into the show and became both a solid and original building blocks of the overall synthesis.

Though I'm not sure if you've ever seen his puppetry bit with
the two white tigers as it never made television, I've heard no less than an a writing authority than George Carlin intricately explain his admiration for it.
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Postby Guest » 11/27/06 12:26 PM

1) "Been done and said"? No. It just seems that way at times because so many performers take the easy road of re-cycling the creative work of others, and ignore the hard road of creation. There's more mediocrity available for comsumption than ever before, but there's still LOTS left to say and do.

2)Ritter: OK, the Emperor's clothes are bee-u-tee-ful.

Who would I hold out as great writers (script-wise) in magic? Penn & Teller, with emphasis on Teller. Mac King. David Parr. Eugene Burger. Jim Steinmeyer. Nary a hack on the list.

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Postby Guest » 11/27/06 12:44 PM

OHHHHHH, I get it now, Chris Ritter is the head of AJ's management company.

OK, Chris, just out of curiosity, why has AJ done the "Magic sounds a lot like tape" bit on virtually every single TV gig since his "Young Comedians" shot on HBO in...what?...'84? Since he's such a terrific writer and all, can't we write something new?

Oh, and, I didn't flub the Gazzo quotation. He HAS been doing it for 25 years, at least. If it was hack when Gazzo started using it, it's equally hack for AJ.

P&L
D
(When I 'was' on AJ's payroll, indeed! Are you managing him for free these days?)
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Postby Guest » 11/27/06 12:56 PM

Chris asked>>>what system would qualify in determining whether a performer has primo writing chops?>>>

1) Originality.

2) A distinctive writing voice unlike any other.

3) Quality of the writing.

Now, a question for you. If you took out of the special under discussion everything AJ didn't originate--From "Tastes like Schick", to, "Got something on your shirt/got your nose", what, exactly, would be left?

I'm not saying AJ isn't entertaining...he is! Or funny...he's hilarious! But come on, Chris. You wouldn't put his writing on par with, say, Andy Kaufman or Teller, would you?

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Postby Guest » 11/27/06 02:25 PM

I get the feeling you are not a fan of AJ's Dee.
Steve V
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Postby Guest » 11/27/06 06:11 PM

I wouldn't say that, Steve. He's funny. I enjoy his shows. At worst, I'm indifferent to him.

I just happen to be a harsh critic of writing I find to be mediocre.

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Postby Guest » 11/27/06 06:13 PM

...oh, and, I find it disingenuous as hell that Chris claims he "was" on AJ's payroll, but his website lists AJ as a current Management Client.

If your on team AJ, be proud to say so.

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Postby Guest » 11/27/06 07:11 PM

I'll begin with a quote:

"the only thing new in the world is the history that you don't know"--Harry Truman.


Dee- I don't really know that I've been hyping him at all like some managers would, or even ranking him within the pantheon of the world's greatest writer. I guess that is the argument that you would like to steer me into. In essence, I was merely shedding some light on a subject in a manner that added some perspective and angles to your own. I take it you come to the boards to learn as well as to teach.

---As you might guess, I find your propensity to call balls and strikes from the vantage point of left field AND to THEN push that opinion as superlative to someone who is standing directly behind home plate to be amusing so please by all means, please keep that coming because, after all, only you can see when the emperor has no clothes.

-----It is kind of funny how you switched from insinuating Gazzo had material that was lifted to now saying that he too is a hack. For the record, I like Gazzo's act a lot. Like Johnathan, I doubt that there are few performers out there who could get anywhere the same mileage out of Gazzo's set.

Let me hit your questions:

>>>OK, Chris, just out of curiosity, why has AJ done the "Magic >>>sounds a lot like tape" bit on virtually every single TV gig >>>since his "Young Comedians" shot on HBO in...what?...'84?

The Young Comedians Special was taped in 1982 and aired in 1983. It had John Candy as the host and some of the other comics were Bill Maher, Colin Quinn and another fairly original voice by the name of Joel Hodgson. The "magic sounds a lot like tape" line that debuted nationally on this show has actually appeared in less than a fifth of his television appearances and when it does go in, it is often less a matter of Johnathan not having other material then it is a matter of it being specially requested by the producers.

>>>>>Since he's such a terrific writer and all, can't we write >>>>>something new?

-----he does, and some of his writing has even made it into the acts of his performer friends. I'm not saying that you've seen it, but he has created lots of new material over the years, just ask the stagehands who get paid overtime to rehearse it.

-----A lot of his fans would point out to you that he made (I think) 24 appearance on a FOX show called Comic Strip Live and at no point did he ever really repeat any material, often coming up with new stuff on the fly with great regularity.

-----Back when I was there nightly, Johnathan's fans would come to me with their feedback on his show instead of to him on occasion. I guess no one wants to add suggestions to a successful person's face. Anyway, I'll never forget the night when one guy cornered me saying how he wished that Johnathan had done more new material than what he had already seen. I pointed out that nearly a third of the show was new from just the year before, but it was to no avail to his way of thinking.
I duly noted it and moved on. Later that same evening, another fan cornered me and told me how disappointed he was that Johnathan HADN'T performed his knife thru the arm, the jack-in-the-box and the Siegfried & Roy tiger bit....and there you have it, you can't please everyone, but you try to find the balance anyway.

>>>(When I 'was' on AJ's payroll, indeed! Are you managing him for free these days?)

-----We're both independent now and there is no regular schedule or percentage of money involved. Some money changes hands a couple times a year, but I'm not on his
payroll anymore than the electric company is on yours.
After all, if I was on his payroll, I couldn't always tell him what
I was really thinking, and where would the fun be in that?

>>>(When I 'was' on AJ's payroll, indeed!

-----Hey, what's with the "indeed?'
What disgruntled British dandy from the 1960's
are you trying to channel? Shall I brace early for an invokation
of "touche" at a later date?

>>>>>Now, a question for you. If you took out of the special under discussion everything AJ didn't originate--From "Tastes like Schick", to, "Got something on your shirt/got your nose", what, exactly, would be left?

---the pine tree bit with Penny, the Siegfried & Roy tiger bit,
the anthrax joke, the Blue Man Group bit, some of the
practical joke anecdotes, the broken glass bit, the
Kung Fu Theatre stage bit, the tribute to Martin Luther King,
the Tony Orlando ambush, the Captain kangaroo ping pong
ball bit and the foam magic spectacle come to mind.

-----In addition, maybe it was just me, but that reference
he made to the Planet of the Apes during the hand shadows digression seemed to make the audience ROAR and that
was all him as well.


>>>>>I'm not saying AJ isn't entertaining...he is! Or funny...he's hilarious! But come on, Chris. You wouldn't put his writing on par with, say, Andy Kaufman or Teller, would you?

-------Can you direct me to some of their writings or articles about their writing talents? Of course, I'm familiar on an intermediate level with Kaufman and Teller, but would voraciously like to have more knowledge on the subject of
great writers within the history of magic.
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Postby Steve Bryant » 11/27/06 07:16 PM

You wouldn't put his writing on par with, say, Andy Kaufman or Teller, would you?
No, I wouldn't. I consider it superior. AJ cobbles together old high school insults and manic flights into chaos to create a very funny show. I can understand it not being some folks' cup of tea, but I consider it to be a very creative and well-written show. Even when that means making a very effective use of a stock line.

Andy Kaufman? He used to be very funny, then sank into the wrestling phase which I found sick and pathetic.

Teller? He is of course a genius, and I adore his work, but technically, in his onstage role, he says nothing, so it's an amusing comparison. If you are talking about his writing all the crap that Penn says, or at least creating the routines, then he is very good. But even that has limits that I don't encounter in AJ's show. To quote the words of a rather gentle magician I know who never swears, "I like the show, but I'm tired of their s***." By that he meant that he was tired of their takes on religion and politics. I am too. It's not that I disagree with their stances, in particular, just don't care for it in a magic show. (To be fair, I don't think this magician likes AJ's show either. Too crude.)

I also don't get the big deal that a comic has to write his own material. Bob Hope and Jack Benny and Johnny Carson were great comics, but not writers. Elvis and Sinatra and Linda Ronstadt were/are great singers, but don't write their own songs.

Nor do I get that AJ should change lines or material that works for him. Channing Pollock and Ballantine never changed their acts, and they are gods.

Given what AJ does, the writing works fine for me. The words fit the character and the routines perfectly. I'm not "on" team AJ, but would be proud to be.

-- Steve
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Postby Rick Ruhl » 11/27/06 10:12 PM

Steve,

Carson did write some of his own jokes, in fact, he before he passed away, he wrote a bunch of jokes for Letterman.

The team of Carson/McCormick is the comedy equivilant of Lennon/McCartney or Page/Plant in music.
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Postby Ryan Matney » 11/27/06 11:17 PM

I think I'd like Amazing Jonathan better if he actully did magic. He may be funny (subjective), clever, etc etc. But he doesn't really do magic.


Might be fun to start a thread and try to track down the origins of some lines everyone uses. There's a few I've always wondered about.
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Postby Guest » 11/27/06 11:40 PM

I like Amazing Jonathan well enough, but to say his writing is superior to Andy Kaufman's... Maybe for some, but as far as I'm concerned Kaufman was on a level which AJ doesn't come close to approaching.
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Postby Dustin Stinett » 11/28/06 12:17 AM

Most of what I am reading is a matter of taste with one (to me) egregious exception:

Originally posted by Steve Bryant:
I also don't get the big deal that a comic has to write his own material. Bob Hope and Jack Benny and Johnny Carson were great comics, but not writers.
With all due respect to my friend Steve, I must correct his error: Johnny Carson wrote most (if not all) of his own material for his Carsons Cellar show and worked as a comedy writer for Red Skelton. He was an active writer throughout the Tonight Show and after he retired he wrote, on the sly, material for David Letterman. Johnny Carson was a hell of a comedy writer.

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Postby Steve Bryant » 11/28/06 04:44 AM

I stand corrected on Johnny. I was thinking of when he was finally on the Tonight Show and had a team of writers. He no doubt edited then as well, as Hope and Benny probably did. But this exception(s) of course is not the point.

Weren't those guys great, though?
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Postby Rick Ruhl » 11/28/06 07:33 AM

Originally posted by DustinStinett:
Most of what I am reading is a matter of taste with one (to me) egregious exception:

Originally posted by Steve Bryant:
[b] I also don't get the big deal that a comic has to write his own material. Bob Hope and Jack Benny and Johnny Carson were great comics, but not writers.
With all due respect to my friend Steve, I must correct his error: Johnny Carson wrote most (if not all) of his own material for his Carsons Cellar show and worked as a comedy writer for Red Skelton. He was an active writer throughout the Tonight Show and after he retired he wrote, on the sly, material for David Letterman. Johnny Carson was a hell of a comedy writer.

Dustin [/b]
Is there an echo in here, didn't I say that 5 posts above? LOL
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Postby Guest » 11/28/06 11:40 AM

Chris says>>>>>

---As you might guess, I find your propensity to call balls and strikes from the vantage point of left field AND to THEN push that opinion as superlative (((I don't consider it 'superlative'. I just consider it my opinion. But thanks for thinking so!--D))) to someone who is standing directly behind home plate (((Now I'm picturing you crouched down behind AJ as he take a swing. Thanks for putting THAT image in my head!--D)))to be amusing so please by all means, please keep that coming because, after all, only you can see when the emperor has no clothes. >>>

I'm not the only one who can see it. ;-)

>>>-----It is kind of funny how you switched from insinuating Gazzo had material that was lifted to now saying that he too is a hack. >>>

It's only "funny" to you beacue your opinion is demonstrably inflexible and dogmatic, whereas mine is open to new information. See, I love Gazzo's act, too. But I, unlike you, am willing to call a hack line a hack line no matter HOW much I like the performer.

So, which lines or bits in AJ's act do YOU consider hackneyed? ("Hack" being the derivation. Def: "Lacking freshness or originality.") I'll spot you the 'got your nose' bit.

>>>The "magic sounds a lot like tape" line that debuted nationally on this show has actually appeared in less than a fifth of his television appearances>>>

BZZZZT! I'm going to have to call shenannigans on that one, Chris. You know perfectly well the "Tape" bit is too long for anything but a half-hour of one's own. To say that it's in less than a fifth is disingenuous. How many half-hour-at-least, all AJ shows has it NOT been in?


>>>-----he does, and some of his writing has even made it into the acts of his performer friends. I'm not saying that you've seen it, but he has created lots of new material over the years, just ask the stagehands who get paid overtime to rehearse it.>>>'

Good to know, thanks!


>>>After all, if I wasn't on his payroll, I couldn't always tell him what I was really thinking, and where would the fun be in that?>>>

Did you lie to him when you were ON his payroll?

>>>(When I 'was' on AJ's payroll, indeed!

>>>-----Hey, what's with the "indeed?'
What disgruntled British dandy from the 1960's
are you trying to channel? Shall I brace early for an invokation of "touche" at a later date?>>>

Well, no. You see, "touche" is French, not English. My favorite use of the word comes at the end of each refrain of Cyrano's "Ballade Du Duel Qu'en L'Hotel Bourguignon Monsieur De Bergerac Eut Avec Un Belitre" in which he exclaims, 'A la fin de l'envoi, je touche." (Cyrano de Bergerac, Act One, Scene 3.) What's your favorite use of touche?


Re: Kaufman & Teller>>>Can you direct me to some of their writings or articles about their writing talents? Of course, I'm familiar on an intermediate level with Kaufman and Teller, but would voraciously like to have more knowledge on the subject of great writers within the history of magic. >>>

You seriously think Kaufman was a magician? Wow. OK, 'Comedy 101': Kaufman was...well...he called himself a "song & dance man", but most people consider him a comic. For samples of his writing (along with his partner Bob Zmuda,) I would direct you to any of the existing footage of Andy in performance. Or to Zmuda's biography of Kaufman. (I include Kaufman as a reference because AJ is as much a comedian as he is a magician, and I figured it's a fair point because you mentioned Carlin.) As for Teller, there is a TON of his writing on the P&T website.

Hope that helps.

P&L
D
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Postby Dustin Stinett » 11/28/06 08:34 PM

Originally posted by Rick Ruhl:
Is there an echo in here, didn't I say that 5 posts above? LOL
Indeed you did, but I didn't get that far! I read Steve's post and jumped.

Think of it as corroboration!
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Postby Guest » 11/28/06 08:53 PM

Dustin wrote>>>Indeed you did>>>

Watch it with the hoity-toity talk, Dustin. It makes Ritter get all snarky.


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D
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Postby Guest » 11/30/06 12:45 AM

Dee--

I think.....this is difficult for me to admit,

but......I think I've ....well, I've.....fallen for you.

The way you blend the muckraking soul of Upton Sinclair with the post-menopausal hypercritical brain of a sauced Elaine Stritch---while faintly intermingling it ever so pedantically with your Frasier Crane allusions to French literature---you're such a sassy delight!!!

.....and please don't get me started on how you manage to cherry up the delightful cupcake that you already are with
that ever-so-winsome Lindsay Lohanesque putdown repartee. Hopefully, as you continue think of me as snarky, you'll do so with a capital "S".

But all seriousness aside, I know that a lot of the true magic scholars would dismiss the idea that Kaufman was a magician, but in a sense, he did perpetrate a tremendous "switch" illusion in regards to the Tony Clifton character. It actually spanned months.

Perhaps upon further inspection, Kaufman might seem to be fairly innovative in being an ILLUSIONIST, even if optics, props and physics played little part in his work.

After all, his audiences usually didn't know what was real and what wasn't ; whether he was reading the Great Gatsby for hours on end or criticizing Smuda for having outed himself as a stooge who had been heckling by design all along.

His foray into professional wrestling, in a way, was natural because professional wrestling at that time, especially in Memphis, wasin large part, another huge illusion in and of itself,
---believed to be real by way more than 90 percent of the people in attendance and by the thousands more who watched Kaufman performing his wrestling angles on television.
(granted, wrestlers tried very hard to suspend disbelief back
then in comparison to now.)

Well, I better get off the Kaufman rant before someone rings
in to conjecture that by my twisted logic, that George Bush and Tom Cruise also qualify as illusionists.

PB&J,

Chris
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Postby Richard Kaufman » 11/30/06 01:53 AM

I just want to make it clear that I am not the "Kaufman" being referred to in this thread. He was a "Coughman" and I am a "Cowfman."

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Postby Guest » 11/30/06 08:10 AM

Originally posted by Richard Kaufman:
...and I am a "Cowfman."

Moo.
Thanks for this post. I've been puzzled by your "moobooks" email address for some time. Finally, it makes sense... :)
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Postby Guest » 11/30/06 08:10 AM

Chris writes>>>
posted November 29, 2006 11:45 PM |
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Dee--

I think.....this is difficult for me to admit,

but......I think I've ....well, I've.....fallen for you.

The way you blend the muckraking soul of Upton Sinclair with the post-menopausal hypercritical brain of a sauced Elaine Stritch---while faintly intermingling it ever so pedantically with your Frasier Crane allusions to French literature---you're such a sassy delight!!!>>>>

Well, Chris, you wouldn't be the first. But all this lovely flattery won't get you off the hook just yet, naughty boy.

You still have to answer... What parts of AJ's recent Comedy Central show do you consider to be hack? (IE: "Lacking in freshness or originality.")

C'mon now, I admitted I was mistaken about Gazzo's line and was willing to throw the hack-flag onto his field. Your turn.

P&L
D (Who sings a kickass "Here's to the Ladies Who Lunch")
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Postby Guest » 11/30/06 08:54 PM

Hi Dee,

Okay,

I'm going to think about that question as no answer springs
to the forefront.

There have been many times when I have run unofficial focus
groups and asked people what was both their most favorite and also their least favorite part of Johnathan's show....and without exception on both counts, there was never a clear consensus.

Basically, everything on that television special was tried out in his live show at the Sahara and if not enough people
had reacted positively to it back in Vegas, then it wouldn't
have been performed with the camera rolling.

In a sense, I think the question is better asked of someone
who is simply a fan of magic on the complete novice side
of the spectrum or to someone who practices magic.

Alas, I am neither---and as you can imagine, I care more
about whether the crowd has a really good time than if a
couple academics had nothing to **** about.

In time, moi cherie, I'll try to get to all of your questions but I have some grown-up business to take care of.
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Postby Guest » 12/01/06 07:17 PM

"No answer springs to the forefront"?!?!?

Nothing?

Not even the "Spot on your shirt/GOT YOUR NOSE!" bit we all did in second grade?

Not even the '...especially THIS one" line Mr. Biro has already established was a hack line by the time Fred Kaps first used it?

You're evading, plain and simple. You had PLENTY of time to concoct a 300-word evasion, yet none to simply acknowledge the two examples above?

SHENANNIGANS!

Oh, and it's "Ma cheri". "Moi cherie" basically translates to 'Me, Cherie!"

P&L
D
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Postby Guest » 12/01/06 09:06 PM

Originally posted by DeeBrennan:


Well, no. You see, "touche" is French, not English. My favorite use of the word comes at the end of each refrain of Cyrano's "Ballade Du Duel Qu'en L'Hotel Bourguignon Monsieur De Bergerac Eut Avec Un Belitre" in which he exclaims, 'A la fin de l'envoi, je touche." (Cyrano de Bergerac, Act One, Scene 3.) What's your favorite use of touche?

That's touching, but not perfectly accurate. Touch! is now a perfectly ordinary English word , even though it still requires the accent over the e, and quite likely to be used by someone like John Steed, to give a dandy example of a British dandy.

In French, it means "I am touched," or "You have touched me," as used by fencers. It's the past participle, and thus is a completely different usage from the one in the Cyrano Ballade, which may translated as " Thrust home! " (And of course, it's Bltre , rather than Belitre, but I'm sure you knew that.)
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Postby Guest » 12/01/06 10:40 PM

Not exactly. "Thrust home" first appears in the 1923 translation by Brian Hooker. Himself a poet, he opted for a connotative translation that better fit his rhyme scheme, rather than a literal translation. It's the most commonly known translation as it was the text of the Jose Ferer Broadway version and movie.

The earlist translations, though, simply and correctly give it as "I touch," (Neeley, 1898,) and "I'll touch," (Renauld, 1898). In my opinion, it's far more effective this way because the innocence of the phrase better clashes with the deadliness of the act itself. (Though it does make for awkward poetry. Neely forces a rhyme with "Scaramouch".)

The correct French spelling is "touche", without the accent over the e. It is approximately prounounced, "toosh".

P&L
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(Who finds it incredibly ironic that an argument over the details of the work of one of the last great Romantic poets would be conducted in a thread bearing the name of AJ. Only in magic....)
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Postby Guest » 12/01/06 10:47 PM

(And of course, it's Bltre, rather than Belitre, but I'm sure you knew that.) >>>

Naturellement. I'm simply too lazy to switch over in order to place the correct accents. Since "Bltre" was not the word under discussion, taking the time to place the accents would have been nothing more than showing off.

P&L
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