Where is All Backs??

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Postby Ricky Difeo » 11/24/03 12:06 PM

Hi!

I have reading the Complete Work of Derek Dingle (wonderful book) and in the page 205 "All Backs with Selection, write "its basically Vernons hangling from "Expert Card Tecnique".....

But, in what page of Expert Card Tecnique, I can not found it.-

Thank. :eek:
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Postby Bill Wheeler » 11/24/03 12:49 PM

Hi

I remember wondering the same thing myself some time ago. There are a couple of editions of Expert Card Technique. The Dover Reprint for instance, (the only one I have) is from an earlier edition and does not have Vernon's All Backs routine.

Someone else may be able to shed more light into which edition has it (along with the other material later editions contain).

Hope this helps

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Postby Frank Yuen » 11/24/03 01:18 PM

You're looking for the third edition.

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Postby Ricky Difeo » 11/24/03 02:22 PM

OK. I have the second edition republication.

Thank You
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Postby Matthew Field » 11/25/03 09:02 AM

Frank Yuen is correct. The third edition of ECT, published in hardback by Faber & Faber, has an additonal chapter, "A Lesson in Card HAndling" by Dai Vernon. This was added after the fracas when Vernon learned that Charlie Miller had, unknowingly, "spilled the beans" to Fred Braue about the Vernon tricks appearing, uncredited, in the first and second editions. The second edition is the one reprinted by Dover.

"The All Backs" is on pg. 459 of the third edition, one of six Vernon routines. This editon also contain a chapter in the Side Steal by Dr. Daley.

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Postby Richard Kaufman » 11/25/03 09:32 AM

I'd actually be curious to know how many people out there actually use "All Backs" and what all of you generally think of the routine?
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Postby Guest » 11/25/03 11:58 AM

The All Backs is only effective when performed by someone who can sell the crap out of it (a Cervon type, a [censored] type, etc.).

When everyone else does it, it's like a bad version of the linking ropes.

HR
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Postby Guest » 11/25/03 01:29 PM

I've been playing around with an Ackerman All Backs routine from Don England's T.K.O.'s.
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Postby Steve Bryant » 11/25/03 02:53 PM

Thumbs down. I have seen it performed only once (and didn't particularly enjoy it), and I've never liked any of the routines I've seen in print. I don't know why anyone would find this an emotionally satisfying plot, and it falls into that class of card tricks where I always suspect the spectators' theories as to how it works are pretty close to the mark.

Ah, but I'd love to show Pete Biro my Oil and Water trick.
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Postby Jeff Haas » 11/25/03 04:35 PM

I agree with Steve. It seems to me like one of those ideas that cardmen come up with from playing around with the cards, instead of asking what a good emotional hook would be.

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Postby Guest » 11/26/03 09:28 PM

Since my name has been mentioned on this thread I must naturally respond.

I stole "Expert Card Technique" out of a public library about 40 years ago. I walked out with it under my coat. I must say that it was the best thing I ever stole.

The chapter on presentation is pure gold. In response to Harley what he says goes for ANY trick, not just "All Backs. You must "sell the crap" out of every trick even if it is the nail through finger. Mind you, you can sell things by underplaying as well as by razzamatazz.

But to All Backs. I have only done this a few times and I must say that the effect on laymen is particularly good. I think I may do it more often in future. I think the thing that has restricted me so far is that it really is an opening trick and I usually open with other things.

I find a good way to do it is to say "this is a deck of cards I bought at a magic shop" Then I go into the routine saying "-there are backs where the backs should be but there also backs where the fronts should be."

And so on. I think it is a great trick.
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Postby Guest » 11/27/03 05:51 AM

Originally posted by Richard Kaufman:
I'd actually be curious to know how many people out there actually use "All Backs" and what all of you generally think of the routine?
Believe it or not, the routine "New Back Off" from Cardshark is a very powerful routine for lay audiences. I have seen him perform this routine for lay people and it plays very well. The strenth in his routine is allowing the spectator to handle the double back card because they are convinced the cards have backs on both sides and are quite stunned when he prints faces on the cards.
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Postby Pete McCabe » 11/27/03 11:30 AM

I have an in-progress version of all-backs where the cards start blank on both sides -- a printing error at the factory, natch -- and then I print backs, so I could at least have a deck, then I have a card freely chosen and drawn on a blank card by the spectator, which is then used in an ambitious card routine (the ultimate signed card). For the climax, print the rest of the deck (or maybe show that all the cards are now hand-drawn -- as I said, it's in progress.)

One of these days.


Speaking of which, Happy Thanksgiving everyone.
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Postby Curtis Kam » 11/27/03 02:57 PM

I've found one good use for the impromptu all backs routine, and in this context it has played quite well.

First of all, forget the selected card nonsense. It has nothing to do with the main effect, and only serves to dull the novelty of it all. Do you really need another effect that ends with "..and is that your card?"

Second, wait until you're between tricks, and a playful audience member asks "Can I shuffle the cards?" or "can I see the cards?" Unless I've got a plot underway, I say "sure" and hand it to him. When the deck is returned, I look suspiciously at the deck and the spectator, and explain, "Does it look Okay? Now I've got to check, too. (to audience) You have no idea. Sometimes other magicians will come to the show just to mess with my cards..."

Under this premise, you spread the cards hand-to-hand, showing all backs. As you close the spread, reverse the entire deck under the top two cards via Christ Twist. Turn the deck over to examine the other side, and again, show all backs. Proceed to examine the deck yourself, finding only backs, and shooting suspiciious glances at the guy who obviously "did something" to your cards.

End by letting the vicitm off the (emotional) hook by magically correcting the situation.

After this, you'll find few interruptions from the "inquiring minds". It can be as playful or serious as the situation warrants. I've found it plays well in situations where the audience and I speak different languages. For some reason, this emboldens the spectators, and they tend to ask for the deck more frequently. The resulting "faceless" condition is something that is clear to all audiences, without explanation, as are the suspicious glances.
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Postby Kent Blackmore » 11/27/03 04:49 PM

See also "The Magic of Lewis Ganson" published by Supreme for another all backs routine (memory tells me it was by Fabian aka Aldo Colombini)
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Postby Jon Racherbaumer » 11/28/03 08:04 AM

I think that ALL BACKS was one of those hybrid effects that evolved from magicians getting together and "noodling." When the double-back card (Horowitz?) emerged and cardmen began figuring out applications and the notion of such a gaff "leaked" into the mainstream, whimsical cardmen decided to create "mock" tricks such as ALL BACKS to amuse themselves and their brethren. Purists didn't like this approach because it "planted the seed of gimmickry" in the minds of laymen.

There were many interesting IMPROMPTU versions, including Elmsley's that was initially published in ROUTINED MANIPULATION (Ganson).

Marlo's "Wrong Deck" was interesting and Ackerman devised a few good versions. I briefly covered this hybrid effect years ago in Hierophant. I occasionally perform my simplex version when I'm really bored, hence, it's semi-ironic title, "Pardon My Backs!"

For those who may have a sliver of interest in this effect, perhaps the following will amuse you for a minute or two?

PARDON MY BACKS!
Jon Racherbaumer

Preparation: Make-up a double-backed card by gluing two matching cards which also match the deck face-to-face. Use rubber cement. This will also act as a thick card or a locator as in Elmsleys routine. This thick double-backer is inserted in the middle of the deck. Immediately above this special card place the AH face up. The entire deck is cased and you are ready to proceed with the routine.

Method: The performer riffles the upper left corner downwards with his left thumb, asking the spectator to say "stop". The riffling action is timed so that the thick double-backer is forced, i. e. the bottom card of the upper half will be the double-backer. This half is lifted off the left-hand portion and tilted upwards toward the spectator--who will be surprised to see a back. As this half is shown to the spectator, the performer says- "Please remember this card! " (The deck, of course, is held in the conventional dealing position. The "stop action" of the thick card is practically automatic. )

The performer looks at the spectator and recognizes the odd or surprised reaction. Finally he looks at the selection(?) himself, noting the "back", and with a surprising tone says, "Oh... (followed by a favorite or apropos expletive- -which may or may not be profane, depending on the crowd or circumstances)... it looks like... I have the wrong deck... this is terrible. . . "

The performer places the cut-off packet underneath the left-hand portion with the thick card going to the bottom. The pack is spread face-down between the hands, revealing backs. (Be careful not to spread beyond the face-up AH second from the bottom. ) Patter: What can one do with backs here and. . . "

The deck is squared and turned over end-for-end (as in the Marlo routine). Immediately the deck is lifted upwards and re-spread between the hands. The performer, of course, will see faces while the spectator will see the same backs just shown him in Step 3. (This is an effective Marlo subtlety that has taken in many magicians and laymen. ) Patter: ". . . backs here. Backs on both sides. "

The pack is squared and lowered. The thick double-backer is now on top. The left thumb pushes over & flips over(two or three times)this double-backer as the performer remarks, "There's not much one can do with every card having a back printed on both sides. .. " With the pack still squared, once again it's turned over end-for-end. Immediately the right hand (with the aid of the forefinger)Swing Cuts the upper half into the left hand. The right hand, holding the lower half from above and by the ends, bends its wrist inward and almost palm upwards--which in effect, turns its packet over(bringing the thick double-backer uppermost again). The left-hand packet moves over and drops onto the right-hand packet. With the aid of the left hand, the assembled deck is squared and comfortably position in a right-hand dealing position.

Now the left hand further squares the cards held in the right hand, slightly beveling the pack to the left. The entire deck is now shifted to the Right-Hand Pressure Fan position. The pack is given a Right-Hand Pressure Fan(as in the Marlo routine)and both sides of the fan are shown, apparently revealing "all backs". Continuing patter: ". . . Yes--I must have picked the wrong deck by mistake. How can you choose a card? They're all alike. "

The pack is squared and immediately(as though the performer were still unsure, as though still checking the nature of the cards)re-spread between the hands, being careful not to spread beyond the midway point where the two halves meet face-to-face. The pack is re-squared, turned over end-for-end, spread again, and finally squared.

The performer says, "Perhaps it's possible to print the face of the card you selected in the beginning. I had expected you to choose the Ace of Hearts. . . " After a magical gesture(such as riffling the front end of the pack), the performer spreads the cards until he comes to the face-up AH--once again remembering not to spread beyond the face-down card below it. The spread of cards above the face-up AH are taken by the right hand and places below the left-hand portion, as the left thumb makes sure the AH is flush with the assembled pack. Patter: 'The trouble with printed a face on a card is


Here the performer does a Block Pushover(so that the back of the double-card doesn't flash)and continues spreading about a dozen cards or more(just as long as the spreading doesn't go beyond the center where the packets are back-to-back). The cards are squared, turned over, and re-spread in the same manner. Patter: ". ..that all the cards become faces., Faces here, here, and everywhere. Now the upper quarter of the pack is given a Swing Cut into the left hand. The three quarters of a deck remaining in the right hand is turned over(as per technique described in Step 6)and placed underneath the left-hand "quarter packet". Now the upper half of the pack is given a Swing Cut into the left hand and the remaining half pack is turned over and placed underneath the left-hand "half packet". During this cutting sequence, nothing but faces will show. If the pack is examined at this stage, you'll find that the upper 3/4ths of the pack is face-up, the double or thick card is about 18 cards from the top, and the lowermost 1/4 of the pack is face-down.

The left thumb riffles the upper left corner until it automatically stops at the thick card. The right hand lifts all the cards(including the thick one- -which will be on the bottom)and more or less out-jogs them on top of the talon. These cards are casually but incompletely spread. disclosing all faces. The right hand once again lifts them up and tables them, leaving them face-up with the double card on the bottom.

The talon is squared as the right thumb(at the rear end)finds the natural break where the two packets meet back-to-back and releases one face-up card onto the face-down lowermost packet. The left 4th fingertip moves in and holds a very slight break. There is a momentary pause as more patter lines are delivered. Finally all the cards above the break are spread and dropped onto the tabled cards. All faces, of course, will show. The remaining packet is turned over and spread. The last two cards(which will be back-to-back)are held as one. All the cards above these last two cards are dropped face-up onto the tabled cards.

The last two cards(held as one--a double-facer)are turned over, showing a face on both sides, and is used to scoop up the tabled pack. The scooped pack is now held in the left hand and spread face-up. This spread can consist of almost the entire deck. The double or thick card is third from the bottom. The pack is squared and turned over. Now the lone face-up card is lifted at its lower right corner and flicked at its upper left corner as the left hand does a Wrist Turn and the performer simulates doing a DAmico Change. Finally the single card in the right hand is shown to have a back, followed by showing the entire deck to have backs. The thick double-backer is now third from the top. It can either be disposed of at an opportune moment or can be used in other effects as a locator, double-backer. etc.

March 1, 1970

Onward...
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Postby Ricky Difeo » 11/28/03 11:23 AM

I could find routines of All Backs of Jean Hugard, Harry Riser, Ascanio, Marlo, Milton Kort, Derek Dingle, Karl Fulves, Bruce Cervon, Emsley, Jon Racheubamer, besides Dai Vernon's version

I believe that some reason impelled these big magicians to look for news versions of this wonderful game and that the purists reject.

Now the question is who the creator of the original All Backs was. According to what I could discover it would be Ralph W. Hull in 1920. If somebody can add some other type of information it would be interesting.

Special gratefulness to Jon for their routine of All Backs.-
:genii: ---->JR
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Postby Guest » 11/28/03 12:40 PM

Jeff Busby marketed his All Backs, written by Gene Matsuura, in the late seventies, I believe. It was a small pamphlet, and quite good. Another contribution to the history of this peculiar puzzle...

Best, PSC
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Postby Steve V » 11/28/03 06:09 PM

I'm surprised no one mentioned Back Ordered from Focus by Goldstien. I've gotten great responses from it.
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Postby Ricky Difeo » 11/28/03 06:46 PM

And go. Anothers versions are in DArwin Ortizs books Back off (At card Table) and ......

The new Back off in Scams and Fantasies. :)

And another version of Derek Dingle in Epilogue (Fulves) with gaffed deck and change color. :D

The new questions is if Larry Jennings have any version of All backs?
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Postby Chris Aguilar » 11/28/03 11:29 PM

Originally posted by Steve V:
I'm surprised no one mentioned Back Ordered from Focus by Goldstien. I've gotten great responses from it.
Thanks for the reminder. Had forgotten that one. I've run through the Ortiz version from Scams and it seems nice, but I'm nowhere near comfortable with it to give it a test flight yet.

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Postby Jon Racherbaumer » 11/29/03 09:23 AM

Origins of ALL BACKS? Ricardo is probably right. R. W. Hull may be the guy. In Hierophant #4 I wrote:

R. W. Hull had a good mind when it came to creating effects. Many times his methods leave a great deal to be desired. Edward Marlo, in The Cardician, reminds us that "the effect of causing a deck of cards to change to all double-backs then later to all double-face cards was first brought to the magic-world's attention by R. W. Hull, when he sold his NRA deck. Later, in the booklet, More Eye Openers(printed in 1933), he introduced his 'Magic Picture Book Deck', which was an impromptu version of the NRA deck. Here, too, the pack was shown as first all back, then all faces, plus being shown as all red or all black cards. " Marlo added that the Hull, impromptu version is too cumbersome. Later, in several sources(most notably the third edition of Expert Card Technique), Dai Vernon introduced an impromptu all-back routine called "The All Backs. " When The Cardician was published in 1953, Marlo introduced his routine, "The Trick Deck. " Distinctions should be made between the impromptu versions of Vernon and Marlo. Vernon's method expresses an effect where a pack is shown to have all backs and changes into an ordinary deck. Marlo's method follows the original Hull pattern, adding the double-face part to the routine and eliminating the Hindu Shuffle.

For some reason, the premise of this effect has never captured the imaginations of cardmen. The Potter Index cites very few items. Apparently our creative gentry didn't choose to add, subtract, alter, or vary the first, existing methods. Furthermore, few performers heeded or believed the remarks made by Hugard and Braue in Expert Card Technique. Besides the opening quotation at the beginning of this commentary, Hugard and Braue also testified that this effect or routine was "off the beaten track of conventional card tricks", adding that "the application of superlatives to mediocre card effects is too commonly made nowadays by writers, but in this case the word 'startling' is entirely justified. " All this begs the simple question: Why? Why don't cardmen feature this routine in their acts? Why aren't there more versions?

The Potter Index cites Dai Vernon, Alex Elmsley, Jack Delvin, E. Brian McCarthy, Charles Nyquist, Harry Riser, Roy Walton, Alton Sharpe, and Hans Trixer. Most recently, Charles Clifton in Abracadabra 1261(March 28, 1970)devised an all backs routine oddly titled, "The Chastidy (which is intentionally or unintentionally misspelled)Deck. David Bendix amended this routine, although his notes are unpublished. Allan Ackerman, in his new booklet, Magic Mafia Effects, features a routine called "All Backs. " (Actually the routine is an all-back, all-faces routine.

Vernon probably was the first to offer us an impromptu version.

Chosse mentioned Busby's version, which was spurred by the IMPROMPTU versions of what became known as the Hofzinser All Backs routine that was published by Fulves and made the rounds. Busby's method, in my estimation, was a step backward because it added a double-back card. I publicly said so, which triggered the beginning of my agon with Busby...

Students of course should read all of the versions and decide for themselves...

Onward...
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Postby Richard Kaufman » 11/29/03 10:42 AM

Jon, after receiving a copy of Busby's latest insane dribblings and ravings last night from the unlucky bastard who is on his e-mail list, I can say that your one of the few people on magic whose name isn't mentioned in the same breath as Hitler and Al Capone.
On a more serious note: Elmsley's version has not received any real mention, and it's one of the better ones because it has a plot: the Aces are cut to while the deck is in its double-backed state, making the whole enterprise kind of funny--then at the end the cards on the table are turned over and they ARE the Aces. No one does it because it requires a few double-backed cards. Elmsley's method is the framework upon which Dingle hung his routine where the entire deck changes color at the end of the All Backs routine--a staggering and impossible thing to witness. (The explanation of this routine in Epilogue does not work, by the way, so if you're going to try it, use the explanation in The Complete Works of Dingle.)
I have an interesting All Backs routine called "The Inside-Out Deck" in my book CardWorks. After the deck is shown to have all backs, a double-back card is cut to and openly peeled into two cards, revealing two of the Aces. This is repeated a second time, revealing the final two Aces. Then the faces return.
As far as Larry Jennings, I published his UNGAFFED version of the Ortiz "Back Off" routine in MAGIC years ago. It's very good. I know of no other versions of the trick, offhand, that he did--and certainly no full deck versions.
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Postby thecardman » 11/29/03 11:27 AM

A few years ago, Jerry Sadowitz performed a version on TV here in the UK based, I believe, on the Elmsley version. Fooled the hell out of me.

My understanding is that it was published in "The Crimp". So, there's another one to add to the list.

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Postby Richard Kaufman » 11/30/03 12:09 AM

I should mention that the double-backed card appears to have been invented by Hofzinser (though he did NOT invented double-faced or double-ended cards). He used double-backed cards in only one instance in Kartenkunste: when a few cards shot out of his pocket and fell on the floor, a double-backed card was the way to ensure that the cards fell back up.
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Postby Edwin Corrie » 11/30/03 01:01 AM

There's a Larry Jennings All Backs routine in Lake Tahoe Card Magic. Personally I'm not over-fond of the plot because it seems difficult to make really convincing, but this particular version is quite nice.
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Postby Richard Kaufman » 11/30/03 12:00 PM

Edwin, is the Jennings trick in Lake Tahoe Card Magic with a full deck or a packet?
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Postby David Regal » 11/30/03 04:04 PM

I've long felt that the Quick Three-Way packet approaches to the All-Backs premise (using four cards passing as three) were, for some reason, more effective than full-deck versions. Perhaps the reduction of props - apparently only three cards in play - and the ability for the mind to codify those objects, creates a stronger sensation of magic.
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Postby Richard Kaufman » 11/30/03 08:01 PM

I've done Quick 3-Way for many years and, even so, I don't know how convinced the audience is at the all-backed condition of the cards in the second phase. I seemed to get a greater reaction, and more belief when doing a full-deck All Backs.
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Postby Edwin Corrie » 12/01/03 12:51 AM

I'm 95% sure it's a full deck routine. Will check tonight, unless someone else can confirm in the meantime.
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Postby Edwin Corrie » 12/01/03 04:12 PM

I just checked, and the Jennings routine in Lake Tahoe Card Magic is indeed a full deck version.
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Postby David Regal » 12/01/03 07:00 PM

I think the best way to induce conviction is to ring in a true double-backer, and "accidentally" drop it, allowing it to flutter to the table. I'd then ditch it in my breast pocket, doing the pocket switch for, say, a Joker, so that after the deck is "fixed", I can recall the double backer sticking out of my pocket, show it's now the Joker, add it to the deck and continue.
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Postby Brad Henderson » 12/01/03 08:03 PM

I have always been partial to the Steve Beam version which was reworked by Simon Lovell and is in his first book. You can take advantage of the extra card and lauch into a snadwich type routine as a follow up.

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Postby magicbar » 12/01/03 09:48 PM

Read Bruce's routine in Ultra-Cervon
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Postby Guest » 12/23/03 03:48 PM

Another good All Backs routine is in Focus by Phil Goldstein (Max Mavins brother ;) . Very easy to do and I find it is a good crowd pleaser although, I admit, spectators may see it more as a puzzle than a magic trick. I believe that this can be rectified with the proper presentation. Check out Back Ordered on page 29.

Enjoy,
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Postby Geno Munari » 12/24/03 05:09 PM

This may be moot, but there is a great Dai Vernon routine for All Backs that Michael Skinner performed in Expert Card Technique.
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Postby Gerald Deutsch » 12/25/03 12:06 PM

The All Backs routine is a wonderful example of "Perverse Magic" and I expect to explain my version in the "Perverse Magic" thread under "General" magic next month.
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Postby Guest » 12/28/03 08:42 AM

Originally posted by Matthew Field:

This was added after the fracas when Vernon learned that Charlie Miller had, unknowingly, "spilled the beans" to Fred Braue about the Vernon tricks appearing, uncredited, in the first and second editions.
Excuse my ignorance, but i can't seem to make head nor tail of this sentence. Braue was unaware that there were uncredited Vernon tricks in ECT? Vernon didn't know his effects were in ECT? Vernon wanted his tricks in ECT but didn't want to be credited for them, which is why he was upset when Miller "spilled the beans"? Why the fracas?
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Postby Richard Kaufman » 12/28/03 09:55 AM

It seems that Fred Braue got Charlie Miller to explain lots of material to him without the knowledge that it was going to appear in print. Because Miller was just showing and explaining material to his "friend," he didn't talk a lot about credits. A number of the items turned out to belong to Dai Vernon (though exactly which ones has never been properly documented).
This led to a brouhaha of sorts, and when the third edition of the book was first published, it contained a line in the new introduction which credited Vernon for ideas of his which had been used in the earlier editions, but it didn't say WHICH ideas.
Clear?
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Postby Guest » 12/28/03 03:51 PM

The Sadowitz version is called "The Beast with two Backs" and was published in issue 20 of The Crimp (Jan 1994).

The performance on "Stuff the White Rabbit" took my breath away.
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