Performing Vernon's Triumph

All beginners in magic should address their questions here.

Postby Guest » 02/12/03 08:17 AM

Well...this concern's Ammar's version of Vernon's Triumph off of ETMCM 1.

I truly love the effect, but I am not very comfortable with the shuffle presented in Ammar's presentation. It just does not look very "clean" to me. Ammar fooled me the first time I saw his demonstration, but a person who is burning your hands will not miss what you did. (Maybe I need ladies in short skirts around me to provide the same misdirection? :D )

Do I simply need 20 more years of practice on it? Should I check out the push through shuffle listed elsewhere on this page? Any other methods you might recommend?

Any and all advice would be greatly appreciated.
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Postby Guest » 02/12/03 09:12 AM

Learn the strip out shuffle with the block transfer. You will not regret it.
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Postby Brian Rasmussen » 02/12/03 09:52 AM

On his Card Revelations series Daryl shows a version of Triumph which I now consider my main way of performing the effect. I think this came from Tenkai. I cannot remember which volume it is on at the moment. Mainly, I too did not think that the shuffle Ammar shows was too convincing.
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Postby Guest » 02/12/03 01:22 PM

let me say i am a young magician to and i have ppl constantly watching my hands adn it has foolded them bad. just when your stripping the deck dont always look at your hands, if u can look at them so they arent buring your hands.
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Postby Dennis Kyriakos » 02/12/03 05:19 PM

Darren

Why not go right to the source?

Check out Stars of Magic!
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Postby Thomas Van Aken » 02/13/03 03:36 AM

Dear Darren,
The shuffle used by Ammar is the original Triumph shuffle out of Stars of Magic so I second Dennis's advice to check the original description.
I suggest also that you have a good look at the pictures in Stars of Magic, some important points regarding precise hands postionning are not always mentionned in the text.
With good attention to details, the Triumph shuffle is totally deceptive in a Triumph context: the odd way of squaring the cards is motivated by the fact that you do something odd: mixing face up and face down cards.
Best regards
Thomas
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Postby Jon Racherbaumer » 02/13/03 11:11 AM

Yes, always check the original versions. This notion rang out loud and clear when I was researching the Triumph effect while putting together ARCH TRIUMPHS (1978). I cobbled together a SELECT BIBLIOGRAPHY that cited 90 methods, plus the 13 I published in the book.

Since then there has been many other versions.
Later this month, I'm putting ARCH TRIUMPHS 2.0 on the Premium section of my Website for Triumph nuts everywhere. It will have an updated Bibliography, plus dozens and dozens of additional methods. At one time, I wanted to write a huge compilation of ALL existing methods, separated by category.

ARCH TRIUMPHS 2.0 is a start.

Henry Evans showed me yet another Slop Shuffle method that is powerful. Nothing new except the COMBINATION of elements.

Onward...
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Postby Guest » 02/13/03 02:06 PM

I'm a book guy, but if you want the real work on Vernon's triumph, check out Johnny Thompson's vidoes form L&L. Its all you need!
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Postby Guest » 02/16/03 08:01 AM

Thanks to all for your help and advice - and thanks in advance to all those who may post after this.

Also, I like this forum so much that I just subscribed to Genii! :)

Hope to learn more about all of you as I continue on the magic journey.
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Postby Guest » 04/16/03 11:48 PM

The simplified version of Triumph as described in Stars of Magic or in Michael Ammar's tape is very convincing if you pay close attention to finger positions. Unless you are performing for altitude impaired persons or children, it is nearly invisible, and the rest can be handled with the correct acting.

It was simplified for Stars of Magic from the original block transfer strip out shuffle that Vernon originally used. It's main advantage is that it can be done with just about any quality of cards. I've never been caught with the simplified version, except for my teacher, who is quick to point out faults.

I have the utmost respect for Daryl, but his display in his version of Triumph is (in my humble opinion) inferior to using an up the ladder cut after the strip out, which shows each face up card to be different. There is no doubt after that that the cards are jumbled, and then after that the standard convincer totally locks in the fact to the observer.

I also use the up the ladder cut as the control to get the card to the top for this trick only, so when the spectator sees it used twice, it takes all the heat off. A small number of magicians in the Minneapolis/St. Paul area get together twice a month to discuss advanced aspects of magic (this group is independent of the IBM and SAM clubs, although we are for the most part members of both those clubs too.) I use a way of doing triumph that is just a little different than the Stars of Magic version, but is extremely convincing, and best of all it's almost impossible to screw up. I'm sure it's not original since it makes so much sense.

None of us were very impressed with the multiple pile convincer that Daryl teaches on his London Lecture tapes.

Much of our discussion started while critiquing Joe Fortiers Triumph type routine, in which the spectator shuffles the cards, and it still works! At first he did a daryl type of display and all of us thought that it was the weakest part of his routine. I won't describe it without his permission, but it's a real mind blower. He's spent a lot of time on this and it shows. I still don't understand much of his handling and he isn't offering explanations, But I've seen it so many times that I have seen a little bit of some of the extremely difficult sleights he uses, but still not nearly enough to reconstruct the effect. But, on the other hand I don't want to. It's his trick and I feel honored to be able to critique it and not have him feel threatened that I or anyone else in the group would try to emulate it. (if we could).

In the following months we were able to see some major improvements that Joe made by avoiding the multiple piles, which to a knowlegable magician, just doesn't look right, and lack an important convincer that the cards are truely mixed.

We've also discussed the various in-the-hands slop shuffle techniques and the majority of methods that we know of seem to lack the convincer of the up the ladder cut just after the strip out, and just prior to the standard convincer.
If somebody has some web space available, I'd be glad to upload a video of the version that many of us feel to be superb, assuming you have a table to do it on. I make no claims to its originality.

MSN doesn't let me get to my web site anymore. It's fast but it sucks that you HAVE to use microsoft software.

If you do want to learn the block transfer
stripout, then Johnny Thompson's tape does have a great explanation of that technique. It's harder and probably a bit more foolproof once mastered, but for ease of use, I prefer the simpler stars of magic type stripout, with the addition of an up the ladder cut which neccetates a 'backwards' handling of the stripout so you can use an up the ladder to reverse the two piles once the strip out is performed.
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Postby Guest » 04/18/03 08:26 AM

Mark,

Thanks for all of your great comments. This is exactly why I like the Genii forum so much.

Thanks to everyone else who has replied as well.

I'm making a list of all the Triumph sources for future reference (after I'm finally through the Card College series).

I am even considering joining Racherbaumer's premium site, but as a beginner I'm not sure if it'll be too advanced for me or not.

Darren
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Postby Richard Kaufman » 04/18/03 08:32 AM

Darren, I published a version of "Triumph" in my book CardMagic in 1977 (back when Dinosaurs ruled the earth! Ha!). Frank Garcia liked it enough to swipe it and publish it in one of his books.
My idea was, first, to use a Zarrow Shuffle, and then to keep the amount of time between the instant when the audience sees the face-up and face-down cards being shuffled together, and the instant when the deck is ribbon spread, to an absolute minimum. In other words, allowing as little time as possible to lapse between the illusion (mixing) and the effect (all face down) seemed like it might produce a strong result. You may not care for my personal solution to the problem, but when I performed this for people it always got an extremely strong reaction.
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Postby Pete Biro » 04/18/03 08:39 AM

IMHO... Vernon probably worked on dozens of way to do TRIUMPH and discarded many, publishing what he felt was the best.

Therefore, I firmly believe any variations harm the purity of Vernon's handling as he published.
Stay tooned.
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Postby Guest » 04/20/03 06:25 PM

Wow,

Thanks all, again. I happened to pick up a copy of Doc Eason's Bar Magic Vol. 1 Video. On this, he performed Triumph just as Ammar did (and Vernon, as I've learned here). Doc did the strip out shuffle VERY convincingly, so I know what my goal is now (nothing against Ammar). It's not much fun being out here in a magic "vacum". I don't get to see live magic performances very often at all. I'm going to check out the nearest IBM Ring (1 hour away) just to get some type of magic involvement.

My wife was watching the performance section of the video with me, and after Doc finished with Triumph my wife said (in a very understated tone), "He's A LOT better than you are." :rolleyes:

I'll also continue researching the other books that have been mentioned here for Triumph variations and other effects.
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Postby Guest » 04/21/03 03:10 AM

Richard, I highly recommend that handling that you had published in Cardmagic. It's the only 'cleanup' I use. When Frank Garcia showed it to me, he of course claimed it as his. In the last few years of his life he tried to make friends with people he had made enemies with. He did this with me, Harry Lorayne and several others in the New York crowd. I believe he later on, at a convention/lecture, did give you the credit you deserve on that fine handling.
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Postby Guest » 04/21/03 04:20 AM

"None of us were very impressed with the multiple pile convincer that Daryl teaches on his London Lecture tapes."

Very interesting. I have actually been using this display for Topsy Turvy Aces for more than 10 years and for TTA, it actually is a great convincer. I don't stress too much emphasis on it but I haven't run into any problems (yet).

I also think the up the ladder cut is a great convincer as well.
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Postby Jon Racherbaumer » 04/21/03 11:47 AM

RK is right. After one or two topsy-turvy shuffles, if the audience is NOT convinced of the mised-up condition of the deck, you're doing something wrong. Further proving is for the "gallery." Magicians like Daryl's display when it was released.Clever (?) proving. The key is to show the "righting" as soon as possible.

I published a version a few years ago by Marc Serin that was an odd take on the Tenkai Move. It is a fooler. It is part of ARCH TRIUMPHS 2.0, which will be on my Premium Website in a week or so. For Genii Forumers, here is the Serin effect:

ONE-KAI
Marc Serin

This is a one-hand method for performing the subtle reverse published in The Tarbell Course In Magic - Volume 1 (1927-1941): Tenkais Reverse Cards Mystery, pp. 215-217. Marc is a physician-surgeon who lives in Carcassonne, France (near Toulouse). He is a devoted student of close-up magic, particularly with cards; and has an abiding interest in optical illusions. He is currently writing a technical paper on the subject.

Set-up: Reverse a card on the bottom (face) of the deck.

Method: Hold the deck face down in your left hand with your forefinger curled underneath. Riffle down the outer left corner of the deck with your left thumb until you have released about half the deck.

Move your left thumb under the top half and lever it upwards and to the right. Your left fingertips at the right side of the deck act as a hinge and support the other side of the levered section.

The levered section is almost perpendicular to the other section at this stage; its right section is pinched between your left thumb and fingertips.

As the above action occurs, turn your left hand palm down. Your left thumb and fingers continue pinching the turning cards, which is the original top half.

Release this original top half face down onto the table and your left hand, still palm down, retains the original lower half, which is face down.

Table this half face down to the left of the other portion. All of the cards, except for the top one, are reversed in this section. If you had controlled a selection to the bottom and secretly reversed it at the outset, you are now set to perform a Triumph.

Turn the right hand section face up and shuffle it into the other supposedly face-down portion. Perform a straight cut and you're good to go...

Onward to greater triumphs...
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Postby Bill Mullins » 04/21/03 02:09 PM

A little off topic ...

Jon -- Welcome back, but where ya been? A Forum without Racherbaumer is only half the calories . . .
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Postby Richard Kaufman » 04/21/03 02:14 PM

Unless I'm crazy, the secretly reversed half of the deck remains in the left hand, not the right hand, as JR explains above. :)
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Postby Jon Racherbaumer » 04/21/03 10:55 PM

The description, not RK, is crazy.
Check out edited version.

The one above, to the left. Right?
Or is it the other way around?
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Postby Guest » 06/11/03 03:46 PM

Richard's solution of using the Zarrow Shuffle works beautifully....... but do not be afraid of the original Vernon method.

Also, there are a number of "in the hands" versions of Triumph out there. In addition to sources already mentioned I would refer you to David Acer's superb handling in Natural Selections. In addition to a good walk-around Triumph, you get a spiffy (a word used BEFORE dinosaurs ruled the Earth) false cut that doubles as a convincing topsy turvy display.

Regards.......

Vlad
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